Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[furyofyuriy]

Apologies in advance if someone has already commented on this idea before, however I didn't feel like pouring back through 141 pages again to confirm.
I waited until the results of the survey were posted before I began truly theory crafting this just to confirm that tera wasn't getting banned outright before I made this post. With the discovery of how Tera boosts low bp moves to 60 of the same tera type, it got me thinking about applications. Nuzzle and Acid spray getting better was quickly discovered. Multi Hit and Priority moves (fortunately) do NOT get these buffs, but I was curious about what else. Then an idea came to me, how good would trapping moves be on bulky pokemon?

Now of course, offensively tera is better, this isn't about that. However, there are certain pokemon that have annoying niches that can use this type of mechanic.
First up: the moves- Fire spin, sand tomb, whirlpool, bind, and wrap. These moves have been niche to the extreme in the past, however a base 60 tera move that allows for both binding/trapping passive damage in conjunction with a mon that has decent recovery can actually be mad annoying.

Sand Tomb seems like it's the strongest of the bunch, with notable users such as Hippowdon and Sandaconda come to mind. The former having access to Slack off and Yawn. Both can get up passive chip with sandstorm and can utilize their bulky defense stat with body press. Ting-Lu is also intresting since it gets access to ruination.

Wrap is is a very interesting one to look at as it has a base 90 accuracy as opposed to the normal 85 for the others. The two that jump out to me as threatening is Toedscruel and Dragonite. Toedscruel has access to everything a good stall mon needs, toxic, leech seed, giga drain, spore. It's just a great mon all around. Dragonite seems weird, but it retains access to roost and as many are aware, already has an extreme speed variant with normal tera. However the dragonite idea is simply an observation.

The idea also came to me about tera bug toxapex with infestation, however that would prob be worse than it's own set. Just thought I would add that last bit in for fun.

I am not saying that this is the "next big thing" in the meta, but the idea of having a back up tera that can be used defensively and to trap threats is at least an interesting idea. Will it be good? Probably not, however there are at least a handful of pokemon that could possibly make it work.

 

[Red Raven]

Ok,heres a crazy idea.

Instead of banning Baton Pass entirely,lets unban the move but bans setup with it (like no SD,no CM,.....).
This gens bottlenecked most pivot moves like Teleport,Flip Turn,..... so i see this as a cool solution to add in to the pivoting game
Smogon had also done a similar thing on BP in gen 3,where the move wasnt banned outright but there was a complex ban so you cant make full chains that autowin every battle.

If I'm understanding this right, you're saying we can't have baton pass on the same moveset on one mon? If that's the case then it's probably never gonna happen. Complex bans aren't really something most players here would want to even try something like that due to some annoyances with a complex ban back in gen five. Something like this was proposed last gen when futureport was rampant but nothing really came out of it since it was a complex ban. Gen three is also a different story as that went thru a lot of changes to how baton pass was dealt with and it has a significantly lower power level than this generation. I mean, just look at Salamence. It was good back then and now, it is somehow outclassed by the dumbest looking dragon type ever

While the lack of switch moves is annoying, I guess players'll just have to rely on hard predictions. That's really the only option until we get our old toys back when pokemon home finally connects to the game

 

[Rogue786]

I know Glaceon is a bad Pokémon, but on paper Specs Tera Ice CM boosted STAB Ice Beam sounds like something that not even Blissey would want to switch into

Still slow as crap and destroyed by literally every fighting type in the tier rn

 

[1LDK]

View attachment 473520
May be the first time we ever start a generation’s Viability Rankings with a Pokemon preemptively on the blacklist.

Finch please dont blacklist i swear ill never chill him again nooo nooOoOO AAAAAAHHHH

 

[jdcomix]

sorry if this isn't the right place to post this but will there be a role compendium for gen 9 ou? it was really useful in gen 8 for just collecting all of the different archetypes so i could teambuild, so i hope it's being worked on, thanks!

 

[ArtinKernel]

Ok,heres a crazy idea.

Instead of banning Baton Pass entirely,lets unban the move but bans setup with it (like no SD,no CM,.....).
This gens bottlenecked most pivot moves like Teleport,Flip Turn,..... so i see this as a cool solution to add in to the pivoting game
Smogon had also done a similar thing on BP in gen 3,where the move wasnt banned outright but there was a complex ban so you cant make full chains that autowin every battle.

In the past, we tried a large variety of complex bans to make Baton Pass not broken while still allowing use of the move itself. I don't remember all the iterations, and I don't feel like digging through a ton of old threads, but off the top of my head, things like no Baton Pass with set up moves, no using Baton Pass to pass speed boosts, restricting the number of Pokemon on a team that can know Baton Pass, etc. had all been proposed or tried. In retrospect, all of this was just a horrible mess, and doing it to just to keep Baton Pass the move in the game, while gutting its core concept of passing stat boosts, was of very dubious competitive value. Even after the whole series of restrictions, Baton Pass remained obnoxious and uncompetitive anyways, and hardly any Pokemon use it merely to pivot-- you're not preserving very much with this.

If some move, item, or Pokemon can only exist healthily in a metagame if its core functionality is completely gutted, at that point it's better to just ban it. For example, Dracovish without Fishious Rend would not be broken, but a complex ban of "Ban Fishious Rend, but only on Dracovish; Arctovish can still use it" would be silly. (And we don't ban Fishious Rend the move because it is broken on Dracovish, but it is not broken on Arctovish-- the entire combination of Dracovish's ability, stats, typing, and movepool is what pushed things over the edge.) The same idea is why the council banned Houndstone, but not Last Respects the move, though I expect they would reconsider this if more Pokemon gain access to Last Respects? (Or similarly for Rage Fist?)

It's simpler and more in line with Smogon's tiering policy to just ban Baton Pass, at least in modern generations (policy is going to work a bit different for older gen communities due to smaller communities and unique histories; my impression is that ADV's Baton Pass clause is part of a healthy, fun metagame with a happy playerbase). Complex bans are something we really want to try to avoid going forwards because they are subjective (good policy is as objective as we can make it) and make Smogon's formats less accessible to new players.

If you want to read more about Smogon's tiering policy, or about the history of Baton Pass, you can search in the Policy Review Forum. Additionally, here is a more modern thread discussing fiddly parts of tiering policy in the context of Doubles.

 

[spatula]

What are some common sets for Iron Moth? I have only tried some boots utility sets with tspikes - are there popular sets I'm not aware of? Was one mon I was surprised to see at A-, since I had never really seen it do much during the first couple weeks.

 

[Tarzan917]

Why not just make it so Baton Pass cant actually pass anything? Just make it hard coded to only dry pass? The mechanic for sleep was altered so moves would fail after one Pokemon is put to sleep, so double sleep is impossible. I dont see why similarly baton pass cant be altered either. The only reason I can think of being against it is if people think dry passing itself is broken.

 

[Finchinator]

Why not just make it so Baton Pass cant actually pass anything? Just make it hard coded to only dry pass? The mechanic for sleep was altered so moves would fail after one Pokemon is put to sleep, so double sleep is impossible. I dont see why similarly baton pass cant be altered either. The only reason I can think of being against it is if people think dry passing itself is broken.

Sleep clause at least has some rough precedent from fringe in-game focused modes and predating modern tiering conventions. Baton Pass would be a straight complex ban that would open up an entirely novel can of worms. I’m happy to entertain more discussion on the topic, but it’s pretty clearly de-prioritized right now with a huge ongoing discussion on more pressing Pokemon and a focal mechanic.

 

[KamenOH]

I believe Clawitzer is being slept on.

It can go Tera Dragon or Water, the former serving double duty as it boosts Dragon Pulse into a 100 acc 120 BP (thats how stab works this gen right?) dragon type move, resisted only by steel and blocked by fairy, though aura sphere and dark pulse will clean the steels of the gen nicely, and water pulse hits the fairies well. Water allows it to flow beautifully into a rain team and boost said Water Pulse, in rain, with mega launcher, and act as a late game cleaner or general damage dealer. Of course, it doesnt need to tera anyways, because its a 120 base SpA Water type with servicable bulk. It wont be your wall, but it can take like the one hit it needs to in order to win.
Expert Belt, Modest, maybe like some SpD investment, it could work. Beats Gholdengo, roaring moon, hydreigon. Maybe it'll work well for you.

 

[Player J]

Anyone else feel like playing stall is just... so much slower? I feel like it takes even longer to win with stall because ways to deal passive damage are more limited. Knock Off to remove HBD or lefties is lacking, less toxic users, rapid spin and defog are everywhere... I feel like I have to play until the patience of my opponent runs out

I feel like pure stall is legit dead after already being pretty shit in gen 8. Defensive balance seems like it replaced stall. But I haven't played too much stall, so it's just limited impressions from my part. What's your take on it?

I don’t know what you would consider Pure Stall.
I think players have different opinion’s on what they believe a Pure Stall team would be.

To Me - I think Pure Stall is winning a Pokémon battle by making the opponent run out of moves.
The opponent‘s PP runs out, until they are forced to struggle with their Pokémon taking struggle damage.

I have seen people call Status Condition wins the Purest form of Stall.
They Stall the battle in order to win by way of Toxic, Burn, Etc.

I have seen people call Hazard/Chip Damage wins the Purest form of Stall.
They Stall the battle in order to win by way of Reducing the Enemy Health with consistent damage.

———————————-

I think people have different opinions about what the Purest form of Stall is due to the time frame of when they started their Pokémon Journey.
I am a Gen 1 player.

In Gen 1, Players didn’t use Toxic or Burn.
Toxic & Burn weren’t viable win conditions.

It is because when the game was first created Toxic it did 1/16 Damage per turn.
The game changed how much damage Toxic did from 1/16 per turn to 1/8 in later Generation’s.

————————————

In Gen 1, Players couldn’t win with Hazard/Chip Damage.
Stealth Rock, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, & Webs didn’t exist.
No Hazards in the format.

Chip Damage didn’t exist because Recovery moves were very Popular in Gen 1.
Every Pokémon had access to the move Rest and they used it on like every Pokémon.

The only time they didn’t use the move Rest is when they had an exclusive move.
The move Recover allowed players to regain health, but it was only on Psychic type Pokémon.
The move Soft Boil allowed players to regain health, but it was only on the Pokémon Chansey.

————————————

- PP Stall is the Oldest Style of Stall which was Originally created in Gen 1.
- Status Condition Stall & Hazard/Chip Damage Stall are Modern Forms of Stall which became viable ways to win in later Generations


I think Pure Stall might not be dead, but it may have less play vs. other Stall variations

 

[ArtinKernel]

I believe Clawitzer is being slept on.

It can go Tera Dragon or Water, the former serving double duty as it boosts Dragon Pulse into a 100 acc 120 BP (thats how stab works this gen right?) dragon type move, resisted only by steel and blocked by fairy, though aura sphere and dark pulse will clean the steels of the gen nicely, and water pulse hits the fairies well. Water allows it to flow beautifully into a rain team and boost said Water Pulse, in rain, with mega launcher, and act as a late game cleaner or general damage dealer. Of course, it doesnt need to tera anyways, because its a 120 base SpA Water type with servicable bulk. It wont be your wall, but it can take like the one hit it needs to in order to win.
Expert Belt, Modest, maybe like some SpD investment, it could work. Beats Gholdengo, roaring moon, hydreigon. Maybe it'll work well for you.

Clawitzer does hit super hard, and it has reasonable bulk, but with that abysmal speed it struggles to switch in and is probably only killing 1-2 things max. A Choice Scarf helps at the expense of sheer power, and Clawitzer doesn't mind the move lock that much, but it still seems like a niche Pokemon at best. Do you have any replays of it coming in clutch?

That said, I would be super excited to see Tera give new life to less good Pokemon, and Tera Dragon (which blocks Clawitzer's weaknesses for a surprise kill, it could be a neat lure) + Dragon Pulse + Mega Launcher is a cool synergy. That is, if Tera ends up not being judged broken. :P

 

[kosecant]

At this point, they deserve some special badge that's like "no 1 Glaceon fan" or something

That would be hilarious but we really shouldn’t encourage people to spam about their favorite Pokémon lmao

 

[awyp]

That would be hilarious but we really shouldn’t encourage people to spam about their favorite Pokémon lmao

The more time you spend on this thread, you will see individuals who talk a lot of game about a certain Pokémon that you don't particularly agree with in terms of competitiveness when it comes to OU. This individual has been spamming Glaceon for the last week, so it piqued my interest and I went ahead and tried some sets. It confirmed my thought that it's still not a good Pokémon lol. Shoutout to Indeedee-F, now that's a Pokemon that I wasn't expecting to be good in the OU tier that ended being a pretty good choiced user.

 

[kosecant]

The more time you spend on this thread, you will see individuals who talk a lot of game about a certain Pokémon that you don't particularly agree with in terms of competitiveness when it comes to OU. This individual has been spamming Glaceon for the last week, so it piqued my interest and I went ahead and tried some sets. It confirmed my thought that it's still not a good Pokémon lol. Shoutout to Indeedee-F, now that's a Pokemon that I wasn't expecting to be good in the OU tier that ended being a pretty good choiced user.

I was more talking about giving them a “#1 glaceon fan” badge, I don’t particularly care if anyone talks about an unviable Pokémon. Quite the opposite, I usually find it hilarious.

what about indeedee did you findespecially good for OU?

 

[Athyestic]

I was more talking about giving them a “#1 glaceon fan” badge, I don’t particularly care if anyone talks about an unviable Pokémon. Quite the opposite, I usually find it hilarious.

what about indeedee did you findespecially good for OU?

Part of it is almost certainly that it's Psychic Terrain is invaluable in a metagame with so much priority being thrown around.
It's also a pretty good scarfer, what with stuff like Trick, Hwish... uh it just has those two as tools without Eforce.

 

[Vengeance417]

Specs and CM boosted? Bit confusing there, don’t know how you’re getting that.

You pair your Specs CM Glaceon with a Magic Room Klefki. You then CM a bunch of times until the MR wears off. Now, you're +2 with Specs. gg no re

Nasty Plot Tera-Ice Tera Blast Rotom-W is a better Ice-type than Glaceon. Don't use Glaceon.

 

[Gondre19Wedj]

Part of it is almost certainly that it's Psychic Terrain is invaluable in a metagame with so much priority being thrown around.
It's also a pretty good scarfer, what with stuff like Trick, Hwish... uh it just has those two as tools without Eforce.

Oh man, psychic terrain and get Espathra out there? That's a deadly combo. It'd take some maneuvering, but a better player than I could definitely get it done.

 

[alephgalactus]

You pair your Specs CM Glaceon with a Magic Room Klefki. You then CM a bunch of times until the MR wears off. Now, you're +2 with Specs.

Dammit, you said this as a joke but now I really want to try Magic Room Choice Setup. Scarf Chi-Yu with a Nasty Plot up sounds like even more of an Instant Win Button than Specs Chi-Yu already is.

 

[awyp]

Part of it is almost certainly that it's Psychic Terrain is invaluable in a metagame with so much priority being thrown around.
It's also a pretty good scarfer, what with stuff like Trick, Hwish... uh it just has those two as tools without Eforce.

This is my answer I was going to give, the only thing to add is that it messes up Cyclizar with Trick or Dazzling Gleam as well.

This is the set I use (Shoutout to 1LDK)

Indeedee-F @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick
- Dazzling Gleam
- Psyshock
- Healing Wish

 

[The Black Hippopotas]

*Wo-Chien is the only Peril that doesn't appear in the viability rank

What's the problem of Wo-Chien? For what I've seen of it, I find it a very good defensive Pokemon

 

[kosecant]

*Wo-Chien is the only Peril that doesn't appear in the viability rank

What's the problem of Wo-Chien? For what I've seen of it, I find it a very good defensive Pokemon

Grass dark really holds it back, as you are weak to fire, fighting, fairy, ice, flying, poison, and a 4x to bug. Prettier much all of those are common offensive typings, and make wo-chiens job as a wall much harder

 

[ThunderBrine]

Grass dark really holds it back, as you are weak to fire, fighting, fairy, ice, flying, poison, and a 4x to bug. Prettier much all of those are common offensive typings, and make wo-chiens job as a wall much harder

Does this account for before Terastallization, after, or both? Sometimes Tera helps, sometimes it doesn't do anything.

 

[kosecant]

Does this account for before Terastallization, after, or both? Sometimes Tera helps, sometimes it doesn't do anything.

Mostly before, because there are much better Pokémon to use terastallization on, like skeledirge and Dondozo. You can use it, but they both have good types without needing to use it to be viable

 

[alephgalactus]

*Wo-Chien is the only Peril that doesn't appear in the viability rank

What's the problem of Wo-Chien? For what I've seen of it, I find it a very good defensive Pokemon

It’d be a great defensive Pokémon if it didn’t have such a garbage defensive typing, especially in the current meta. U-Turn is in contention for the worst single move to be 4x weak to, it can’t touch Breloom, Chi-Yu says “It’s Chi-Yuin’ time” and Chi-Yus all over it, Iron Valiant eats it alive, and Volcarona does to it exactly what you’d expect a pyrokinetic moth to do to a pile of leaves. Even Lokix beats it and Lokix has only one move. It also doesn’t have enough of a damage output to break through the Shed Tail Subs running around everywhere, no reliable recovery (although Leech Seed + Giga Drain can serve it well enough with the bulk it has), and defensive playstyles aren’t really viable right now in general. Even with all that, if it didn’t have the secret Ability “Defensive Typing of Ruin” (effect: lowers its own usage by 25%), it’d have a lot more of a presence in the meta.