Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Athyestic]

Ok ok I just commented something on the Tera thread, and I'd like to post a very... interesting Chien-Pao set here.
Weavile-Mega (Chien-Pao) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sword of Ruin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Ice Spinner
- Sacred Sword
- Recover
This is a move that Chien-Pao gets. All hail your new overlord, and any wrong turn will bring back all of the chip it's taken.
I'm unsure how good it would be in practice, but in theory this set is absolutely demonic.

 

[Deathbringer7]

Ok ok I just commented something on the Tera thread, and I'd like to post a very... interesting Chien-Pao set here.
Weavile-Mega (Chien-Pao) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sword of Ruin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Ice Spinner
- Sacred Sword
- Recover
This is a move that Chien-Pao gets. All hail your new overlord, and any wrong turn will bring back all of the chip it's taken.
I'm unsure how good it would be in practice, but in theory this set is absolutely demonic.

I don't think it would like dropping Crunch considering it's the most spammable move.

 

[Athyestic]

I don't think it would like dropping Crunch considering it's the most spammable move.

I wanted the perfect coverage+a form of priority, but the main premise of 3a recover holds no matter what you run.
It could be Ice Shard/Crunch/Sacred/Recover, it could be Sucker/Crunch/Ice Spinner/Recover, depends on what you're feeling.

 

[Kocbert]

What niche are you trying to fill with it though? Bronzong's defensive profile isn't exaclty great at the moment, and stealth rock is super easy to fit on teams at the moment. Between the donphans, garchomp, ting lu, torkoal, glimmora, ttar, etc. we're not exactly hurting for good rocks users.

Specifically I'm pairing it with AV great tusk as a sort of budget corv with rocks. Off the top of my head I can't think of any other mon that can fill that niche or allow for that kind of structure .

 

[1LDK]

I think little don

You know what, im gonna try build something with present donphan (he is not smol, he is the present) what style of gameplay should i take from donphan

 

[LORD SAGIS]

Cursedozo

Dondozo @ Leftovers / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Wave Crash
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk / Body Press

I'm out of No Johns now but I wanted to show my appreciation for one of the most unkillable titans OU has ever seen. While its movepool is a bit disappointing what it does have is enough to be a legitmate sweeper in the metagame. With so much hyper offense around a lot of teams best way of dealing with it is Garchomp using D-tail, or bombarding it with special attackers.

I ran Sleep Talk to be peak GSC Snorlax moment but I saw some people using Body Press which makes breaking through roost Dragonite and Corviknight a lot easy, not sure which ones best so we will see.

As for things to watch out for, Meowscarada's Flower Trick, strong Special Attackers, phazing, Chien-Pao's sacred sword at low hp, and random super effective coverage. Some defensive pokemon wall Dondozo as well like Toxapex, Amoonguss, and WA Clodsire.

 

[awyp]

Cursedozo

Dondozo @ Leftovers / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Wave Crash
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk / Body Press

I'm out of No Johns now but I wanted to show my appreciation for one of the most unkillable titans OU has ever seen. While its movepool is a bit disappointing what it does have is enough to be a legitmate sweeper in the metagame. With so much hyper offense around a lot of teams best way of dealing with it is Garchomp using D-tail, or bombarding it with special attackers.

I ran Sleep Talk to be peak GSC Snorlax moment but I saw some people using Body Press which makes breaking through roost Dragonite and Corviknight a lot easy, not sure which ones best so we will see.

As for things to watch out for, Meowscarada's Flower Trick, strong Special Attackers, phazing, Chien-Pao's sacred sword at low hp, and random super effective coverage. Some defensive pokemon wall Dondozo as well like Toxapex, Amoonguss, and WA Clodsire.

This is a great set, Dondozo just lacks special defense which is it's main downfall regardless of Unaware. I personally would probably lean on Sleep Talk over Body Press as long as you can get rid of all the Water Absorb / Storm Drain Pokémon. I think this might be Dondozo's best set currently.

 

[Xufactor]

They would very much be saying the move is broken, but Blissey and Chansey are literally in the top 3 least physically offensive mons in the entire game, so they'd have literally no reason to run it over seismic toss.

I don't think people would say a move is broken if it is given to certain mons, just how people didn't say sticky web was broken in gen 6, but probably would if it was given to every spikes user.

Please stop using the worst possible examples to illustrate that it is impossible to determine that last respects is not the reason Houndstone got banned, we both know that mon would be UU right now if it weren't for that move.

No, I would say Last Respects is definitely the reason Houndstone got banned. It just wouldn't be broken on every mon.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

This is a great set, Dondozo just lacks special defense which is it's main downfall regardless of Unaware. I personally would probably lean on Sleep Talk over Body Press as long as you can get rid of all the Water Absorb / Storm Drain Pokémon. I think this might be Dondozo's best set currently.

Personally I feel like the curse sets are a bit greedy, I've been running rest talk liquidation body press as a universal phys offense counter and it's been fantastic, the fighting coverage makes a big difference in making progress into things like chien Pao and roaring moon, and it's been rare that I've been in a situation where curse would have actually mattered - plausibly only vs annihilape set ups. Uninvested 110 still hits plenty hard without boosts.

 

[Endrism]

Found a very interesting tech that made a guy get really toxic when it hard stopped his sweep.

Iron Valiant @ Life Orb / Leftovers / Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind / Psyshock
- Moonblast
- Focus Blast
- Destiny Bond

With Iron Valiants high speed, this move comes in handy BIG TIME. If you know their Gholdengo or Chi-Yu isn't scarfed, or if the Annihilape has gotten way too strong, you can just whip this out, click D-Bond, and trade your Valiant for your opponents most valuable mon. It has gotten me out of a few really tough spots, and although the exact set I've provided may not be the best, it gets the point across.

 

[Marco27]

Hello, this is actually my first time commenting here but i wanted to share something.


Veluza @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Cutter
- Psycho Cut
- Night Slash
- Fillet Away

This thing is a beast and i think is terribly underrated. I've been using it in a team paired with screens grimsnarl and shed tail cyclizar (pretty disgusting i know) and if you manage to set it up with both things (which is surprisingly easy) there's nothing stoping you from clicking fillet away and destroying everything. The coverage is pretty much perfect and tera dark makes it even better alongside covering a lot of your weaknesses.

I have swept many games with it and i think you try it.

 

[Lectrys]

May as well cross-post this from the Ting-Lu thread in https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ting-lu.3710999/post-9425078 - this has been pretty fun at the very least for messing with opponents' expectations:

Figured I'd take advantage of Ting-Lu's Melmetal-level bulk and reputation for being a lazy hazards setter that invites in offensive checks and use Choice Band Ting-Lu instead:


Ting-Lu @ Choice Band
Ability: Vessel of Ruin
Tera Type: Electric / Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Throat Chop
- Stone Edge
- Tera Blast / Ruination

You'd be shocked what CB Ting-Lu can OHKO or darn close to - this needs hazards support, though:

252+ Atk Choice Band Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chien-Pao: 286-337 (95 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Quaquaval: 288-340 (92.6 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO (93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
252+ Atk Choice Band Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 262-309 (90.6 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO (81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
252+ Atk Choice Band Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcarona: 339-399 (109 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Roaring Moon: 315-372 (89.7 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Cyclizar: 339-399 (98.5 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 238-282 (84.6 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
252+ Atk Choice Band Ting-Lu Throat Chop vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Wash: 181-214 (74.7 - 88.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Gholdengo: 452-534 (119.5 - 141.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 440-518 (108.9 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band burned Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Skeledirge: 237-280 (57.6 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 189-223 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lokix: 147-173 (51.9 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 143-168 (54.7 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Meowscarada: 160-189 (54.6 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Stone Edge is a way to smack Flying-types harder, especially Dragonite, without needing to Tera.

Tera Electric is mainly to get a cool Corviknight-smacking attack and an arguably better defensive typing (especially against rain teams).

Dunno about the defensive EVs - seems like HP investment is worse than SpD investment but ironically better than Def investment.

Dunno if I gave CB Ting-Lu the best teammates I could - trying not to stack Ground-types and feeling semi-stuck using Corviknight as the Steel-type kinda sucked, and finding that Garganacl was likely the best remaining Stealth Rock setter at loading on passive damage sucked even more due to stacking Water and Grass weaknesses - but here are some replays showing CB Ting-Lu shredding offensive mons and hitting shockingly hard:

• https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1729050265
• https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1729436605
• https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1732747570
• https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1730214370
• https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1732744524 (Bonus loss)
• https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1732735488 (Bonus loss)
• https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1732741253 (Bonus loss)

 

[Skyuchi]

Come to think of it, has anyone had any luck with Frosmoth? The thing's ability is great and its movepool isn't bad at all, but obviously it was always held back by having possibly the worst typing Pokemon has ever seen. Now you could make it Electric for Boltbeam stab while being nearly immune to special attacks after a Quiver Dance.
Maybe something like Giga Drain, Tera Blast, Ice Beam, Quiver Dance?

 

[1LDK]

Come to think of it, has anyone had any luck with Frosmoth? The thing's ability is great and its movepool isn't bad at all, but obviously it was always held back by having possibly the worst typing Pokemon has ever seen. Now you could make it Electric for Boltbeam stab while being nearly immune to special attacks after a Quiver Dance.
Maybe something like Giga Drain, Tera Blast, Ice Beam, Quiver Dance?

i havent personally tried it but its one of the few mons who has defog, sadly he gets walled by gholdengo because theres no coverage outside of tera

 

[zantaRay]

May as well cross-post this from the Ting-Lu thread in https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ting-lu.3710999/post-9425078 - this has been pretty fun at the very least for messing with opponents' expectations:

Figured I'd take advantage of Ting-Lu's Melmetal-level bulk and reputation for being a lazy hazards setter that invites in offensive checks and use Choice Band Ting-Lu instead:


Ting-Lu @ Choice Band
Ability: Vessel of Ruin
Tera Type: Electric / Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Throat Chop
- Stone Edge
- Tera Blast / Ruination

Move you might want to consider is heavy slam, possibly with tera steel. I've been running it on standard spikes ting-lu over ruination, as it turns from from fodder for hatterene into 2hkoing it if you tera on the second hit. They also always hit cm first turn, and it ends up being a completely free kill.

 

[Skyuchi]

i havent personally tried it but its one of the few mons who has defog, sadly he gets walled by gholdengo because theres no coverage outside of tera

Theoretically you could boost up and sustain yourself off giga drain, but Trick would still ruin it and that relies on Frosmoth being kept near full.
But then again Frosmoth is UU so I'll give it a shot down there.

 

[Player J]

No one used bulk up buzzwole because its trash.

To stop this being a one liner what are everyone's thoughts on bronzong as a steath rock setter.

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Body Press
- Stealth Rock
- Protect
- Night Shade

Night shade can be replaced with anything really but press and protect are needed to hit dark types switching in and protects scouting is invaluable for its teammates.

A more specially defensive set might be good as a valiant switch in but I haven't tried it.

Gen 2 - Blissy - Leftovers + Toxic + Protect = Chef’s Kiss
- Protect helps stall for time to allow yourself more thinking time
- Protect helps scout enemy moves.
- Protect helps mess up your opponent abilities to predict whether or not you switch in or out.
- Protect helps you get more left over recovery health
- Protect helps you do more damage to enemy with toxic.

Gen 5 - Ferrorthorn - Leftovers + Leech Seed + Protect = Double Chef’s Kiss
- Protect helps stall for time to allow yourself more thinking time
- Protect helps scout enemy moves.
- Protect helps mess up your opponent abilities to predict whether or not you switch in or out.
- Protect helps you get more left over recovery health
- Protect helps you do more damage to enemy with Leech seed and gives your Pokémon more health.

Gen 9 - Bronzong - Leftovers + Protect = Not good enough!
You need something more.

Maybe, you can add the move Future Sight.
Leftovers + Future Sight + Protect = Maybe, Just Maybe, it can be worthy of a Chef’s Kiss

Bronzong
- Stealth Rock
- Protect
- Future Sight
- Body Press

It seems good, but I do think ZantaRay has good point.
I don’t think the above move set would be the main reason people would use Bronzong.

What niche are you trying to fill with it though? Bronzong's defensive profile isn't exaclty great at the moment, and stealth rock is super easy to fit on teams at the moment. Between the donphans, garchomp, ting lu, torkoal, glimmora, ttar, etc. we're not exactly hurting for good rocks users.

The only niche I can see for Bronzong is Trick Room.
Bronzong is 1 of 2 Pokémon currently available with the ability to do Stealth Rocks + Trick Room.
Screaming Tail is the only other Pokémon who can do both Stealth Rocks + Trick Room.

Is Bronzong better vs. Screaming Tail?
I don’t know.

However, Bronzong‘s move pool allows him to lead with Rocks and set up Trick Room for a Trick Room team.
This seems to me what separates Bronzong from other Stealth rock users.


Is a Trick Room team good in the current meta?
I don’t know that either!

I was thinking of making a Trick Room team which is how I know about Bronzong, but I never finished making the Trick Room team because I got side tracked with my other team.

Bronzong
- Stealth Rock
- Protect
- Future Sight
- Trick Room

? A move set like above would lose Body Press, but might be ok for Trick Room team?
It is interesting for sure.

 

[NoSeLlama]

No, I would say Last Respects is definitely the reason Houndstone got banned. It just wouldn't be broken on every mon.

I mean Shadow Tag or Arena Trap wouldn't be broken if they were given to a theoretical 6bst mon. The abilities are considered broken because they make almost every single Pokemon who get them bananas. I'm sure once Basculegion is released it will set the precedent that every Pokemon that has the move is broken, so then it's the move that should be banned and not the Pokemon.

 

[Player J]

Ok ok I just commented something on the Tera thread, and I'd like to post a very... interesting Chien-Pao set here.
Weavile-Mega (Chien-Pao) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sword of Ruin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Ice Spinner
- Sacred Sword
- Recover
This is a move that Chien-Pao gets. All hail your new overlord, and any wrong turn will bring back all of the chip it's taken.
I'm unsure how good it would be in practice, but in theory this set is absolutely demonic.

I think the idea to put Recover on Chien-Po is bad.
You are building Chien-Po for damage & speed.
Chien-Po is a prime time OU sweeper.

The Pokémon Chien-Po hit get destroyed!
The Pokémon Chien-Po hit and are not destroyed are Pokémon who have been built to counter Chien-Po.
The Pokémon who are built to counter Chien-Po often have been designed to withstand Chien-Po hits and counter attack with an OHKO.

Thus, Chien-Po is a kill or be killed type of Pokémon.
The move Recover isn’t designed for that style of play.

 

[Athyestic]

I think the idea to put Recover on Chien-Po is bad.
You are building Chien-Po for damage & speed.
Chien-Po is a prime time OU sweeper.

The Pokémon Chien-Po hit get destroyed!
The Pokémon Chien-Po hit and are not destroyed are Pokémon who have been built to counter Chien-Po.
The Pokémon who are built to counter Chien-Po often have been designed to withstand Chien-Po hits and counter attack with an OHKO.

Thus, Chien-Po is a kill or be killed type of Pokémon.
The move Recover isn’t designed for that style of play.

I definitely see where you're coming from but I feel the surprise factor + the lowered burden of prediction because if yk they're gonna switch you can just recover and scout what they're going to handle you with.

It's probably ill suited to this variation of OU, but once the metagame settles and slows down I can see Recover Chien-Pao being a massive threat.

 

[Lectrys]

Move you might want to consider is heavy slam, possibly with tera steel. I've been running it on standard spikes ting-lu over ruination, as it turns from from fodder for hatterene into 2hkoing it if you tera on the second hit. They also always hit cm first turn, and it ends up being a completely free kill.

Choice Band Ting-Lu Earthquake 2HKOs the bulkiest of Hatterene; they'll be forced to play the Draining Kiss game immediately:
252+ Atk Choice Band Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hatterene: 178-211 (55.9 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

In the meantime, a Corviknight calc for Tera Blast from Choice Band Tera Electric Ting-Lu:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Electric Ting-Lu Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 270-318 (67.5 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Electric Ting-Lu: 66-78 (12.8 - 15.1%) -- possible 7HKO

 

[zantaRay]

I think the idea to put Recover on Chien-Po is bad.
You are building Chien-Po for damage & speed.
Chien-Po is a prime time OU sweeper.

The Pokémon Chien-Po hit get destroyed!
The Pokémon Chien-Po hit and are not destroyed are Pokémon who have been built to counter Chien-Po.
The Pokémon who are built to counter Chien-Po often have been designed to withstand Chien-Po hits and counter attack with an OHKO.

Thus, Chien-Po is a kill or be killed type of Pokémon.
The move Recover isn’t designed for that style of play.

I've gotten top 10 on gen4 ladder recently with ex belt slack off Infernape, a very similar pokemon to Chien-Pao in many ways. Recover lets you work off chip, and makes it hard to wear you down by switching around, especially if you're running life orb, which Chien Pao can do with hazard support. Don't be so rigid in your thinking.

Choice Band Ting-Lu Earthquake 2HKOs the bulkiest of Hatterene; they'll be forced to play the Draining Kiss game immediately:
252+ Atk Choice Band Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hatterene: 178-211 (55.9 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

In the meantime, a Corviknight calc for Tera Blast from Choice Band Tera Electric Ting-Lu:
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Electric Ting-Lu Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 270-318 (67.5 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Def Corviknight Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Electric Ting-Lu: 66-78 (12.8 - 15.1%) -- possible 7HKO

Good point I didn't consider that EQ would just cleanly 2HKO.

 

[NoSeLlama]

Hey. Did you guys know that Garganacle learns BLOCK???

Saltcure + Block is an incredibely evil combination and it can lead to bullshit like this, it starts from turn 12:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1733473006

If you manage to trap something like Blissey or Skeliderge you can ensure you win the Recover wars because you can use Leppa Berry, effectively doubling your amount of Recovers (ek strats being relevant who whould have thought).

I know this is a low ladder game, but I'm p sure a better player could horrible things with this and I think it should be banned somehow xd

 

[alephgalactus]

Hey. Did you guys know that Garganacle learns BLOCK???

Saltcure + Block is an incredibely evil combination and it can lead to bullshit like this, it starts from turn 12:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1733473006

If you manage to trap something like Blissey or Skeliderge you can ensure you win the Recover wars because you can use Leppa Berry, effectively doubling your amount of Recovers (ek strats being relevant who whould have thought).

I know this is a low ladder game, but I'm p sure a better player could horrible things with this and I think it should be banned somehow xd

I’ve tried out a meme set with Curse + Block + Salt Cure + Recover and Tera Ghost, so you can boost with Curse and then start inflicting Curse’s massive turnly damage after it’s all boosted up. It’s not optimal by any means, but it’s fun to see Dondozo die in 2 turns and be unable to do shit about it.

 

[jdcomix]

Hey. Did you guys know that Garganacle learns BLOCK???

Saltcure + Block is an incredibely evil combination and it can lead to bullshit like this, it starts from turn 12:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1733473006

If you manage to trap something like Blissey or Skeliderge you can ensure you win the Recover wars because you can use Leppa Berry, effectively doubling your amount of Recovers (ek strats being relevant who whould have thought).

I know this is a low ladder game, but I'm p sure a better player could horrible things with this and I think it should be banned somehow xd

Yeah this seems busted. I know the council doesn't like complex bans but I'd be in support of a salt cure + block ban. This seems flat out uncompetitive