CobsonYaoi
formerly Holesum420
Why would anyone choose that over Dragonite? It's worse as an Extreme Killer in every way.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
- Surprise
- Outspeeds E-Speed Dragonite
- Challenges ig
Would losing Spore even be that bad? Amongus still has good bulk, a good typing, and regenerator. There were some stall teams in DLC1 that ran sporeless Amoung just fine when Wogerpon was an issue. Meanwhile Breloom is barely hanging on to viability and Toedscruel and Bonnet fell off a cliff.
Psychic is weird in that as a type its bad but there's a lot of good mons who happen to be psychic type.
Its probably the most common type among legendaries, so the average BST of Psychic Mons tends to be higher because of that. Also, among non-legendaries, Psychic is a type that gets flawored with lots of broken abilities: Magic Guard, Magic Bounce (I miss Megas, when we could use Mons with that ability that weren't Psychic, why did Umbreon never get that ability?), Regenerator, Psychic Surge (Indeedee is not OU, but come to look at VGC what it does) and even Shadow Tag.
This is kinda fair, since defensively Psychic is almost as bad as Ice, without the great offensive power Ice has.
Soiramio3000
Banned deucer.
I believe that at the end of this month primarina will drop and at least one of the latis will rise to OU.
I rarely see primarina and I often see latias and latios.
I rarely see primarina and I often see latias and latios.
I'm arguing for a hypnosis ban specifically tho. Like 1 sub OU viable OU pokemon runs hypnosis and that's alolan ninetales.
Plan is for a survey around the end of next week btw
CobsonYaoi
formerly Holesum420
Is there gonna be a vote on sleep moves?
TBD, still being discussed
Happy with the survey, but another week of going around in circles? I think what needed to be said has already been said, just collect data from the survey.
Can we talk about anything else? Enough Sleep.
Which Tera is your favorite for Kimgambit? (Flying)
Do you dare trust the accuracy of Gholdengo's Focus Blast to hit Kingambit? (No)
What's the craziest set you've seen in Tusk recently? (Tera Ice Bulk Up BE Speed.)
Have any gimmicks been effective? (Trick Black Sludge GalarKing)
Can we talk about anything else? Enough Sleep.
Which Tera is your favorite for Kimgambit? (Flying)
Do you dare trust the accuracy of Gholdengo's Focus Blast to hit Kingambit? (No)
What's the craziest set you've seen in Tusk recently? (Tera Ice Bulk Up BE Speed.)
Have any gimmicks been effective? (Trick Black Sludge GalarKing)
Been trying Hypnosis Lead Gengar to see if it really is Hypnosis that’s the problem. It isn’t, Gengar is cheeks. Every now and then it does work because people have forgotten what Gengar can do, but overall it’s all of the downside of Sleep spam except you’re using a bad Pokemon.
Gambit Tera: I don't run it because I think it's cheap (also you spelled it like the north korean leader)
Focus Hitting: No. I trust Focus Blast Glowking though and it always hits.
Tusk Crazy Sets: Met a kid on ladder with banded giga impact TUSK
Gimmicks: Sashcrobatics Minior
CobsonYaoi
formerly Holesum420
Gambit Tera: I haven't used Kingambit since DLC1 but I used to use Tera Flying
Focus Hitting: Usually I'm very unlucky but I've never missed a Focus Blast on Kingambit
Crazy Tusks Sets: Proto-Speed Bulk Up Tera Dragon is probably the craziest I've encountered
Gimmicks: I've been using Electric Terrain Iron Crown & Meteor Beam Iron Moth for the past few weeks. Not a gimmick but its been so satisfying to hit an opponent's sleep moves back at them with Magic Bounce (i.e. Darkrai, Iron Valiant, Tera Fire Venusaur.)
This is honestly the only correct take on sleep and a variety of other game aspects that lean more heavily into the RNG than others. The community’s intolerance of RNG and obsessive witch hunt to turn it into a game of chess and guaranteed outcomes is fairly pathetic. It’s utterly ridiculous. For several generations now, all you have to do is comment that something is “too RNG based / it’s a coin flip / it makes it 50-50s” and somehow the consensus is that these are valid arguments when in reality you can indiscriminately apply it to whatever aspect of the game you dislike.
Outside of Spore, which is limited to like 2 viable Pokemon, sleep moves as a whole are garbage and a trade-off you make in the builder. When playing with or against them, you adapt your play style to whatever makes the most sense and then execute your own strategy. This has been the case since like…gen 4? If sleep is too much it’s because Valiant and Darkrai break it but let’s not pretend the mechanic as a whole is broken.
As a final point - I get that we try to maintain consistency in the banlist and reasonings behind them but at the end of the day every ban and decision is arbitrary, no matter how “logical” we try to make it seem. Sleep clause makes the game better and is not complex by any means which is justification enough in keeping it rather than going directly to banning the mechanic as a whole.
Personally think that hypnosis merits a ban. You don’t see it on any sets besides those that try to fish for a coinfip win.
I believe spore should stay because it is a predictable move. You will always hit the spore (except again grass types) so there is no randomness involved. Spore allows mons like Amoonguss and Breloom to force reliable progress, but the counterplay is also reliable. You can, for example, switch your least useful mon in on the spore because you know it will hit, then bring in your actual counter.
Hypnosis plays out completely differently because of the 60% hit rate (as well as the fact that very few mons are immune). You can’t switch in a chump mon to take the sleep because what if the hypnosis misses? It’s a coin flip fish that more often than not ends up deciding the fate of the game. It’s not a good move, but an uncompetitive one.
Except… isn’t that the point of Smogon’s tiering philosophy? Making the game more competitive? I feel like you’re being hyperbolic. Yeah, RNG is a part of pokemon and things like focus miss and crits are here to stay. Nobody is going after those. But I think most people will quality agree that hypnosis fishing is more uncompetitive than most of the inherent RNG in this game. Because the payoff of the coin flip is so much higher than most of the other RNG in the game, thus incentivizing the few viable hypnosis sets to actively engage in the dice roll.
I believe spore should stay because it is a predictable move. You will always hit the spore (except again grass types) so there is no randomness involved. Spore allows mons like Amoonguss and Breloom to force reliable progress, but the counterplay is also reliable. You can, for example, switch your least useful mon in on the spore because you know it will hit, then bring in your actual counter.
Hypnosis plays out completely differently because of the 60% hit rate (as well as the fact that very few mons are immune). You can’t switch in a chump mon to take the sleep because what if the hypnosis misses? It’s a coin flip fish that more often than not ends up deciding the fate of the game. It’s not a good move, but an uncompetitive one.
that doesn't get to the root of the problem, which is that sleep as a status is fundamentally uncompetitive and the restriction we have on it is incompatible with modern tiering policy. it needs to be reworked, but it's rare that there's enough community support to have a discussion on it. this is an opportunity we only get once or twice a generation, and it seems like we're actually pretty likely to get it right this time. i think we should seize this opportunity to finally tie up the oldest loose end in competitive pokemon
Chess is nowhere near a game of guaranteed outcomes. Yes, if you play the same moves, you will get the same result but calling it a game of guaranteed outcomes is outrageous. You might as well be likening it to tic-tac-toe, which is at least guaranteed. Turning it into a game of chess is a good thing, as that means it is highly strategic and many things can win you the game if you play correctly.
i genuinely dont see the problem with yawn, even with multisleep. if you get yawned on multiple mons and choose to stay in every single time knowing damn well whats going to happen, thats your own fault and you deserve to be multislept at that point.
and the "but the opponent can just keep yawning as you switch" argument doesnt hold up because, while they are yawning, theyre not getting progress done, and at that point it just becomes a matter of PP stalling.
what is the genuine argument for getting rid of yawn? how is it uncompetitive? i get that it falls under "sleep moves" and that would make for a simple ban, but that can be countered in two ways:
- we just have an "instant sleep moves clause" that bans moves that instantly put the target to sleep, thats just a single word added for a total of 4 words to explain the whole ban, its not complex at all;
- DaddyBuzzwole's logic where we dont consider yawn a sleep move, but a move that inflicts a status condition that eventually inflicts sleep, in the same way that perish song isnt an OHKO move but a move that inflicts a status condition that eventually inflicts an OHKO. i have yet to see a good argument for why this logic doesnt make sense.
CobsonYaoi
formerly Holesum420
Personally I believe that all sleep moves barring Yawn should be banned alongside the Sleep Clause being removed. Suspecting Darkrai and Iron Valiant just to preserve an uncompetitive mechanic already nerfed by a mod would be a very, very stupid decision to make.
Actually on second thought maybe Yawn should be banned too.
Actually on second thought maybe Yawn should be banned too.
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alright, you got me there, but on that, i can say this: hazard damage is not as much as direct damage, even if you continuously phaze someone out with yawn, youd probably be better off just clicking other moves, perhaps attacking. after all, if phazing through yawn was considered broken due to hazard progress, other phazing moves would be a lot more powerful. especially considering the opponent can choose which mon to switch into with yawn, meaning they have some control over what does and does not get chipped to death. yawn has even less PP than whirlwind, too. not to mention theres always a chance that one mon stays in and chooses to attack, severely punishing your yawn phazer - which is way better than what you get with spore, because at least you gain something from sacrificing a mon to sleep.
yawn doesnt have negative priority though
darn it, i forgot about that, sorry. i suppose this is what happens when we theorymon about how things would be if the rules were different.
I don't know why people are saying Yawn is less frightening than other sleep options - Yawn can arguably be more dangerous on certain team comps because it forces switches, giving you a free turn to capitalize on an opponent's decision. It operates under the same principle as SlowTurn/SlowVolt - delayed reaction for immediate results. It also helps that some of the best Pokemon in OU get access to Yawn such as Dondozo, Glowking, and Dirge along with some UU mons that see frequently OU play on niche builds such as Hippowdon, Hydrapple, Kingdra, Swampert, and Ursaluna. Sleep feels more uncompetitive than ever, and it's not just a hypnosis-specific problem - the continued rise of Red Card Spore Amoonguss in the DLC2 meta is also evidence of that. In all honesty, I'd be happy with an outright suspect/ban on all sleep-inducing moves, including Yawn if necessary. As much as I love the discussion around niche sub-OU mons, the fact that people are bringing up Venomoth and Vivillon in OU thanks to their sleep moves is a sign that sleep as a whole needs to be looked at.