Guys don't quote me on this, but I think Good as Gold affects the real world as well
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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I'm saying in comparison to Soft boiled but since that isn't option anymore I cannot directly compare it.
Listen I have a fight or flight response with that stupid thing. And you were still insinuating a comparison.
So an old school spinblocker? It just blocks Defog on top of that.
And it still has to be super careful switching directly into a Tusk lest a predicted switch gets smacked by a move that can pop the Air Balloon.
Sticky Web was also shit until we got Ribombee in DLC1 and it has always been something of a matchup fish cheese strat reliant on faster metas to work, so blaming that solely on Ghold is incredibly disingenuous.
I am of the belief that if you have to sack a Pokemon to keep momentum up then it's actually, legitimately fair since you have to keep that pressure up, especially if you're forced to throw away Ghold early and it's not longer able to check other threats. I'd also argue that the myriad of offensive threats in the meta that can take advantage of easy Spikes stacking (and easy Spikes stacking in general) are worse than Ghold.
More useful does not strictly mean widely viable. It would bump Corv, but people still use it right now; it's not exactly unviable with Ghold around.
The original comparison was made to Mega Sableye, but now imagine that thing stopping you from even Defogging on it (which would work through magic bounce). Honestly my mind goes frequently to Aegislash, as a tier presence that thanks to traits including (but not limited to) its typing, heavily warped the ability of Pokemon if not entire types to function effectively in the Meta. Gholdengo feels like they threw half of those two Ghosts into a blender, in that it's not as egregious on either front as they were respectively, but it combines some of their bigger Meta traits (both were pretty bulky, has Aegislash's offensive presence and versatile movepool/stats, and combines Sableye's ability to completely blank non-damage while having recovery). My response would be fight-or-flight too, in that I would rather fly Gholdengo to the moon than fight another one of these things.
I am going to keep emphasizing this: it is EXTREMELY oversimplified/reductive to say it "just" blocks Defog, when being impossible to stop-by-standing-there was literally the entire cost-benefit trade for Defog over Rapid Spin: you need to Taunt the mon before it Defogs so if your Taunter isn't out, it's happening, unlike switching in a Rapid Spinner (Defiant switch-ins benefitted but were a deterrent, not prevention). Gholdengo's presence in the tier makes the move borderline worthless since its main benefit in distribution is gone and most of the remaining users are not offensive enough to pressure Gholdengo from coming in on a potential predict. The thing that makes Great Tusk or past Spinners like Starmie so significant is that they can perform offensive or defensive glue roles to create chances to spin while not letting the Spinblocker in with 100% safety: Defoggers did not need to do this because their cost was losing your own Hazards in exchange for ensuring your removal of theirs would go through if they got in un-Taunted.
Something ironic about having to be careful switching into Tusk is that despite Gliscor giving Gholdengo the free-est Spikes it could ask for, the push for Ice Spinner DOES make it have to be more careful since Tusk running Ice Spinner gives it 2 common moves Balloon Ghold doesn't blank, as opposed to just Knock Off before. That said, how often is Tusk the play to go into Gholdengo unless you're willing to Sac it to keep Hazards up, considering said Gliscor already checks all the moves Ghold is afraid of (and even ignores Spinner if it Teras)?
Yes, Ribombee is what made Sticky Web really strong in DLC1, but consider how Ribombee was RU/PU with maybe an OU niche in Gens 7 and 8, while this Gen it's not just that but OU-by-usage by a comfortable margin (7.445% is more than new-toy-syndrome for what was previously a niche/gimmick Pokemon's playstyle at best, placing above Ting-Lu, just below Hamurott, and noticeably above another team-style-specific staple in Dondozo). Ribombee was always the first candidate for best Sticky Web setter in OU-below (Ubers' very centralized roster results in playing by totally different rules), but the fact that it's actually OU and not just useable in OU points to something significant having changed, and Gholdengo is the obvious thing to cite when the subject is Entry Hazard meta shifts.
The point in the Sac scenario is that saccing a Pokemon is often a risk assessment of if the Pokemon has done its job for the match or if you need to keep it up to put in more work before you can win. In this regard, saccing Gholdengo does not impede its job as heavily as most other subjects, because Gholdengo's existence means even if the opponent beats it 1v1, they CANNOT assume they will be able to remove hazards until the turn after it has fainted. The Scenario of saccing it to Tusk to afford a free switch for something exploiting a Spinning Tusk was cited because when the Hazard Removal game consists of literally 3 Pokemon (and that's being generous to count a 3rd, be it Corviknight or a collective slot for niche/HEAT removers), the Gholdengo user can easily assess if their team needs those Spikes more than they need Ghold, especially when so much of the offensive Meta is based on Pokemon who can go off in a single turn like Tera-Moon, Iron Valiant, Waterpon, Calm Mind Enamorus or Manaphy to name some. The thing that makes Gholdengo a stand-out on this front is that his typing, bulk, and Recovery are such that you have to specifically aim to kill him to make progress off these interactions, and Hazard damage means generating the switch-ins for Tusk takes a lot more set-up than for Gholdengo, who unlike Tusk is effectively doing its job even for a few turns after it's KO'd
Corviknight is used but its utility as a Defogger is completely shot by Gholdengo, which cuts massively into the role compression it is capable of and that Balance teams desperately need options for in this Meta. As for Mandibuzz, a bulky Defogger is never an unwelcome option for teams, and if it wasn't complete food for Gholdengo the following makes me think people would run it (whether or not you think this is another issue mon)
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 181-213 (42.7 - 50.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 310-366 (73.2 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Dark Kingambit: 149-176 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO (Resistant Tera/Base typing)
+2 252+ Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Flying Kingambit: 298-352 (87.3 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (Neutral Tera)
Boosting more just makes Foul Play stronger to the point it has higher chance to OHKO than Tera Sucker Punch (slightly), and this is assuming the 5 Allies fainted. Closer to Midgame Mandibuzz takes them better, and Kingambit hates being chipped before his End Sweep
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 157-185 (37.1 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 268-316 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is not me saying "Mandibuzz checks Kingambit therefore it needs to be viable," but I do think that its usual defensive utility extending to a stopgap for arguably the most powerful OU presence illustrates it could put in work if it wasn't stopped by the Stinky Cheese man like a lot of other Pokemon.
Honestly really done with people making these awesome super well researched posts to why dengo is so broken when the rebuttal's are just "nuh it's not just click knock 32/32 times and catch it to get the spin haha or run corrv haha"
Oh thank god its not just me. I just hope the people defending Gholdengo are truly challenging their own perceptions on the mon/its ability.
These are just my personal thoughts and not something representing the council or anyone else:
I think the main issues with the tier currently are:
1. Several strong threats that can be difficult to stop:
I'll be honest, I wrote the rest of this post and then tried to write this part, but I wrote so much already, that I'm gonna keep this one short. All the above mons are very good and can be overwhelming at times, but they're closer to being strong individually rather than having a negative effect on the tier. Banning them all probably does help, but the issues with that are that it takes too much time, because none are on the level of being quickbanned (this is probably debatable), meaning that multiple suspect tests are the only way, and then that each one individually does not necessarily have a strong effect on the tier in terms of teambuilding.
2. Gliscor, Gholdengo, and their effect on the metagame:
Gliscor is a phenomenal mon no matter what set you're running and that's because it has the tools to threaten anything (Toxic, Knock, Off, Spikes, SD) while also being very unkillable. The number of pokemon that can safely switch into it and threaten it back is very small (Clefable, Corviknight, your own Gliscor, Air Balloon Steel-types), and that's ignoring that most of the time, you'll probably have to slow pivot into an Encore mon or something like a Water/Ice-type or Tera Blast mon to force it out. Add in the option for Gliscor to Tera and it might just be literally impossible to 1HKO depending on what type it becomes and what mons you have.
I think Gliscor has counterplay on paper, but in practice you never actually know if your counterplay will work until you learn what set Gliscor has, and if Tera can flip the situation to favor Gliscor or not. Air Balloon Steels work until it reveals U-turn/Knock Off, your own Gliscor works until they reveal SD or slow U-turn, and then everything else hates Toxic + EQ coverage and will fail to 1HKO back naturally, or after Tera (like Tera Water letting you wall Greninja). If you do bring a strong mon like Choice Band Rillaboom, that probably works, but you have to deal with not only Gliscor getting to scout what move you choose with Protect, but your Rillaboom is also on a timer due to taking hazards, which there will probably be a lot of thanks to Gliscor putting them up, and Gholdengo for keeping them up.
I feel like Gholdengo is annoying for 2 reasons, the first of which is that it is incredibly good at denying hazard removal, especially with an Air Balloon, and then then the second is that it is very strong offensively. The second one is what actually bothers me more, because like Gliscor, Gholdengo can be very difficult to 1HKO normally, and then when you add in Tera, then it's probably impossible in most matchups. A bulky Tera Gholdengo will most likely eat any hit from offensive mons, and then it will wall and set up and sweep bulkier teams, and there's not much that can stop it at that point. You usually have to either hope its coverage is unideal for that matchup, or that you're able to PP stall Recover or wear it down through various means. There's also the issue that defensive answers like Ting-Lu end up being fake checks because you are not only prone to coverage/Trick, but the moment Gholdengo Terastilizes, your only option is probably to PP stall Recover and hope for the best. Kingambit is the best answer, but it has to deal with Hazards, no recovery if it has Boots, Shadow Ball/Dazzling Gleam/Make it Rain chipping over time, and the occasional Focus Blast outright killing Kingambit on the spot. Sometimes Kingambit and Ting Lu can handle Gholdnego, and sometimes they can't, but Gholdengo in general requires too much effort to handle compared to other mons in the tier.
Going back to the first reason (denying hazard removal), I think with the additions of Ribombee and Gliscor, the hazard issue is starting to feel very upsetting, because Great Tusk has to go through a lot of trouble just to get Rapid Spin Off (eat a Toxic from Gliscor, or pop Gholdengo's Balloon first and then EQ it later on a switch), Corviknight can't Defog on Gholdengo, and then that just leaves your options as using Cinderace's Court Change, or just running a lot of Heavy-Duty Boots on your team. The last one (Boots) is definitely the current go-to option, and while the item is generally great, it does feel forced and anything that feels forced to a heavy extent is probably not healthy. I think this doubles as a benefit to Gholdengo and Gliscor, because like I mentioned earlier, you need something really strong like Choice Band Rillaboom to 1HKO either one, and Gholdengo encouraging Boots rather than Choice Items means that you either need good coverage, or something that hits hard enough with a Tera boosted attack. It's very doable, but not enjoyable personally.
3. Tiering a temporary metagame due to the DLC structure:
Everyone's allowed to have their preference for how this one is done, and it's definitely been a challenge for the council this generation with multiple releases (gen 9 release in November, Home in June/July, DLC1 in September, DLC2 sometime between November and March). Under normal circumstances, or after DLC2 for example, it's preferable to give time to see how the metagame evolves to determine if something ends up being fine or if something gets out of hand. However, for temporary metagames, you have to ask yourself, do I want to tier the usual way, or do I need to tier a little more aggressively/quickly, or should I be patient and not go overboard with it.
I don't think there's a right answer to my previous question, and I say that as someone that would prefer more aggressive tiering in temporary metagames. Sometimes people will find counterplay to stuff that works out perfectly. For example, I voted to quickban Garg at the start of this generation, but then a few weeks later, Covert Cloak started to grow common, and Garg became a lot less broken. People will continue to come up with creative ideas to serve as counterplay to existing threats, and it's good and healthy to give time for those ideas and tier development to happen.
The final part to this probably the main problem, but if we tier normally, then that would mean targeting the big brokens one at a time until the metagame is stable, but for our current case, we have A LOT of very strong pokemon, and then we also have the biggest culprits in Gliscor and Gholdengo. We can test Roaring Moon and then Manaphy, and then Sneasler and whoever, and we'll probably be in December by the time we're done with 3 or 4 back to back tests. I don't think needing that many tests in a short period of time is a healthy idea, granted it's closer to necessary than good, but I would personally rather look into Gliscor or Gholdengo first because banning either of those is what will lead to the tier actually changing in a significant way. I think we need significant change, and our only options are banning certain pokemon, unbanning something from Ubers, banning hazards, or banning tera. I don't think the latter 2 should be considered in general, especially before we see what DLC2 brings us, so that narrows down our options to focusing on pokemon currently in the tier, or possibly something from Ubers. I don't know which Ubers would be worth looking into without getting immediately banned, but if we were to take action on something like Tera Blast. then there would be a lot of mons that could be reintroduced from Ubers to OU, like Volcarona and Regieleki. Tera Blast was already discussed in the Tera PR thread a few months ago and would probably be the only type of action people are comfortable with in regards to action on Tera.
Banning something like Gliscor or Gholdengo is what I believe could be a step in the right direction, and it would be a worthwhile step compared to taking 5+ suspect tests in a row for a watered down version of the current metagame. However, that's just my take on wanting to make the current metagame healthier than what it currently is. Letting it continue as-is or even unbanning something from Ubers for a few months is technically fine too. There is no "right" option because it comes down to personal preference, and my personal preference is to target the bigger influences on the tier in Gliscor and Gholdengo immediately.
Again, these are just my personal thoughts and not what the rest of the council thinks. Have a nice day.
I think the main issues with the tier currently are:
1. Several strong threats that can be difficult to stop:
I'll be honest, I wrote the rest of this post and then tried to write this part, but I wrote so much already, that I'm gonna keep this one short. All the above mons are very good and can be overwhelming at times, but they're closer to being strong individually rather than having a negative effect on the tier. Banning them all probably does help, but the issues with that are that it takes too much time, because none are on the level of being quickbanned (this is probably debatable), meaning that multiple suspect tests are the only way, and then that each one individually does not necessarily have a strong effect on the tier in terms of teambuilding.
2. Gliscor, Gholdengo, and their effect on the metagame:
Gliscor is a phenomenal mon no matter what set you're running and that's because it has the tools to threaten anything (Toxic, Knock, Off, Spikes, SD) while also being very unkillable. The number of pokemon that can safely switch into it and threaten it back is very small (Clefable, Corviknight, your own Gliscor, Air Balloon Steel-types), and that's ignoring that most of the time, you'll probably have to slow pivot into an Encore mon or something like a Water/Ice-type or Tera Blast mon to force it out. Add in the option for Gliscor to Tera and it might just be literally impossible to 1HKO depending on what type it becomes and what mons you have.
I think Gliscor has counterplay on paper, but in practice you never actually know if your counterplay will work until you learn what set Gliscor has, and if Tera can flip the situation to favor Gliscor or not. Air Balloon Steels work until it reveals U-turn/Knock Off, your own Gliscor works until they reveal SD or slow U-turn, and then everything else hates Toxic + EQ coverage and will fail to 1HKO back naturally, or after Tera (like Tera Water letting you wall Greninja). If you do bring a strong mon like Choice Band Rillaboom, that probably works, but you have to deal with not only Gliscor getting to scout what move you choose with Protect, but your Rillaboom is also on a timer due to taking hazards, which there will probably be a lot of thanks to Gliscor putting them up, and Gholdengo for keeping them up.
I feel like Gholdengo is annoying for 2 reasons, the first of which is that it is incredibly good at denying hazard removal, especially with an Air Balloon, and then then the second is that it is very strong offensively. The second one is what actually bothers me more, because like Gliscor, Gholdengo can be very difficult to 1HKO normally, and then when you add in Tera, then it's probably impossible in most matchups. A bulky Tera Gholdengo will most likely eat any hit from offensive mons, and then it will wall and set up and sweep bulkier teams, and there's not much that can stop it at that point. You usually have to either hope its coverage is unideal for that matchup, or that you're able to PP stall Recover or wear it down through various means. There's also the issue that defensive answers like Ting-Lu end up being fake checks because you are not only prone to coverage/Trick, but the moment Gholdengo Terastilizes, your only option is probably to PP stall Recover and hope for the best. Kingambit is the best answer, but it has to deal with Hazards, no recovery if it has Boots, Shadow Ball/Dazzling Gleam/Make it Rain chipping over time, and the occasional Focus Blast outright killing Kingambit on the spot. Sometimes Kingambit and Ting Lu can handle Gholdnego, and sometimes they can't, but Gholdengo in general requires too much effort to handle compared to other mons in the tier.
Going back to the first reason (denying hazard removal), I think with the additions of Ribombee and Gliscor, the hazard issue is starting to feel very upsetting, because Great Tusk has to go through a lot of trouble just to get Rapid Spin Off (eat a Toxic from Gliscor, or pop Gholdengo's Balloon first and then EQ it later on a switch), Corviknight can't Defog on Gholdengo, and then that just leaves your options as using Cinderace's Court Change, or just running a lot of Heavy-Duty Boots on your team. The last one (Boots) is definitely the current go-to option, and while the item is generally great, it does feel forced and anything that feels forced to a heavy extent is probably not healthy. I think this doubles as a benefit to Gholdengo and Gliscor, because like I mentioned earlier, you need something really strong like Choice Band Rillaboom to 1HKO either one, and Gholdengo encouraging Boots rather than Choice Items means that you either need good coverage, or something that hits hard enough with a Tera boosted attack. It's very doable, but not enjoyable personally.
3. Tiering a temporary metagame due to the DLC structure:
Everyone's allowed to have their preference for how this one is done, and it's definitely been a challenge for the council this generation with multiple releases (gen 9 release in November, Home in June/July, DLC1 in September, DLC2 sometime between November and March). Under normal circumstances, or after DLC2 for example, it's preferable to give time to see how the metagame evolves to determine if something ends up being fine or if something gets out of hand. However, for temporary metagames, you have to ask yourself, do I want to tier the usual way, or do I need to tier a little more aggressively/quickly, or should I be patient and not go overboard with it.
I don't think there's a right answer to my previous question, and I say that as someone that would prefer more aggressive tiering in temporary metagames. Sometimes people will find counterplay to stuff that works out perfectly. For example, I voted to quickban Garg at the start of this generation, but then a few weeks later, Covert Cloak started to grow common, and Garg became a lot less broken. People will continue to come up with creative ideas to serve as counterplay to existing threats, and it's good and healthy to give time for those ideas and tier development to happen.
The final part to this probably the main problem, but if we tier normally, then that would mean targeting the big brokens one at a time until the metagame is stable, but for our current case, we have A LOT of very strong pokemon, and then we also have the biggest culprits in Gliscor and Gholdengo. We can test Roaring Moon and then Manaphy, and then Sneasler and whoever, and we'll probably be in December by the time we're done with 3 or 4 back to back tests. I don't think needing that many tests in a short period of time is a healthy idea, granted it's closer to necessary than good, but I would personally rather look into Gliscor or Gholdengo first because banning either of those is what will lead to the tier actually changing in a significant way. I think we need significant change, and our only options are banning certain pokemon, unbanning something from Ubers, banning hazards, or banning tera. I don't think the latter 2 should be considered in general, especially before we see what DLC2 brings us, so that narrows down our options to focusing on pokemon currently in the tier, or possibly something from Ubers. I don't know which Ubers would be worth looking into without getting immediately banned, but if we were to take action on something like Tera Blast. then there would be a lot of mons that could be reintroduced from Ubers to OU, like Volcarona and Regieleki. Tera Blast was already discussed in the Tera PR thread a few months ago and would probably be the only type of action people are comfortable with in regards to action on Tera.
Banning something like Gliscor or Gholdengo is what I believe could be a step in the right direction, and it would be a worthwhile step compared to taking 5+ suspect tests in a row for a watered down version of the current metagame. However, that's just my take on wanting to make the current metagame healthier than what it currently is. Letting it continue as-is or even unbanning something from Ubers for a few months is technically fine too. There is no "right" option because it comes down to personal preference, and my personal preference is to target the bigger influences on the tier in Gliscor and Gholdengo immediately.
Again, these are just my personal thoughts and not what the rest of the council thinks. Have a nice day.
would a spikes ban be good for the meta? the limited hazard removal is even more of a problem now than ever before and its been shown by the substantial support for action on either gholdengo or the setters gholdengo enables, such as gliscor. but what do we as a community feel about banning spikes as a move?
Although that may sound like a good idea, it sets up a dangerous precedent for the council. Because if we do ban spikes, why don't we ban t-spikes, stealth rocks or sticky webs. They also are entry hazards, so what's the difference between spikes and these? I know that spikes are definetely more constricting in the meta than the others but casuals/outsiders wouldn't see the difference.
TLDR, no it wouldn't, because it would lead to discourse in the community.
Ngl but I wouldn’t even mind a Stealth Rock ban. “But it fundamentally changes the metagame and the lack of Stealth Rock makes stall and other bulky teamstyles harder to deal with than they really should be!”, yeah I know, but that’s the kind of sacrifice that must be made for a reasonably OU viable Sun Charizard.
Or Hail Frosmoth. Or Specs Yanmega. Or a Moltres that could run literally anything else it could want to run aside from HDB. But hazards are important so outright trying to ban those instead of the thing that’s preventing even the viable removal options from stopping hazardspam (you know, Gholdengo) is just stupid. Even if Gliscor was gone, we all know that everyone would go back to the “Ceaseless Edge is brainless” and “Ting-Lu is a fat hazard-vomiting fuck that never dies” complaints. Samurott-H even appeared on one of the radar surveys before, so although hazard setters that can do so with no punishment are definitely annoying, Gholdengo being a thing in the tier to just outright prevent the use of Rapid Spin and Defog is at the core of this problem and is extremely unhealthy for the tier.
Just look at Gholdengo already instead of going through the ridiculous sounding complaints cycle of “Oh, Gliscor spams spikes with no punishment? Ban! Samurott-H also does that? Ban! Ting-Lu does that?
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Heavy-Duty Boots for the Grounded Stealth Rock resists because of Spikes, Leftovers for Levitate users and the Flying/Steels, Flying/Grounds, Flying/Fightings and Magic Guard users.
We should wait for DLC2 but tbh we've already had a lot of support...Last Tera survey if on a similar scale technically had more support than Gliscor did on this last survey.
We don't know the full picture of tera, though. DLC2 is gonna drop the 19th tera type. That is going to change the meta A LOT (unless it turns out to be useless lol), so as much as people want it dealt with, waiting for that to drop is the best option, especially if it turns out to push the entire mechanic over the edge.
i just don't quite understand why gholdengo being broken means that gliscor just... isn't broken? like yeah i get from a hazards point of view gliscor would have a harder time keeping them up withough ghold to block removal, but its still so tanky it can easily just come back in later and set more up, it can threaten a lot of things with toxic/eq/knock off, it can be a bulky pivot with u-turn, taunt can shut down would-be removal options like corv, its got a better leftovers which keeps going even after a knock, status immunity, a great defensive typing, and has the option to run an offensive swords dance set just to really throw off people who are prepared for the usual hazard setter set.
imo gliscor is a problem beyond just hazard setting, garg was a bulky, status immune monster who could threaten constant chip with salt cure, but was extremely reliant on tera and still was on most people's radars for a while, before falling off the face of the earth. gliscor can do similar things with toxic, maybe not as much immediate pressure but the fact toxic stays even after switching and it has stab eq to hit the two types immune to poison, steel and poison itself, while also being status immune, very bulky, having a ton of other utility, and a great defensive typing even without tera while still also having tera as an option to change its matchups if need be. i'm not saying gliscor and garg are completely comparable, they are still different mons that do different things, but it still feels to me sometimes that gliscor can do most of what garg can do but better, outside of not having iron defense/body press in its arsenal (yes garg also gets recover but honestly poison heal+protect is more than enough recovery for gliscor to stick around.
i really don't see why people want to keep it around other than that people are so desparate for defensive mons that they'll keep this one around even if it is so centralizing its forcing tusk to run ice spinner as pretty much mandatory to succeed and prompting niche options like g-weezing, just because its something to have against the onslaught of insane offensive threats this gen has to offer. others have said it, but relying on a broken checks broken way of tiering just isn't healthy and its not worth keeping gliscor around just because its a defensive option against other broken mons, those should just go too later down the line if they're a problem.
now don't get me wrong, i think gholdengo is a load of horse crap too, on top of its stranglehold on the hazards metagame its also got a fantastic typing, good bulk and power with the move options to support either a bulky set or offensive set, like they really gave this mon everything it could ever need lol, but it really feels like people are underselling gliscor here and just using ghold as a scapegoat instead. in my opinion they are both bullshit and should honestly just both be banned for a much healthier, less hazard focused meta. gambit, manaphy and waterpon should also probably go, and moon's suspect is already ongoing and hopefully will result in a ban, the only thing on that survey that has any business staying in ou for now is sneasler, and even then that's more of it not being an issue enough right now but an eye should really be kept on it.
maybe i'm missing something here, i'm not some mega good high ladder monster at this game, so maybe i just need to get good, and if this is the case then i'd like to hear why people think that gliscor is fine other than just “we need it because it walls broken shit”, like yes some counterplay to it exists but gholdengo and gambit also have counterplay and nobody is trying to defend them as hard as gliscor. but like this seems far worse to me than lando or tusk ever have done, i mean seriously tusk already powercrept lando hard this gen and then gliscor comes along and dunks on tusk so hard you have to run ice spinner on tusk just to keep up with the fact gliscor is that much better as a bulky ground than you lol.
tldr: gholdengo being broken doesn't mean gliscor isn't, there's a lot more to the mon than just spikes, ban both the silly cheese man and the worlds most unkillable scorpion, also everything else on the radar not named sneasler should go too
thanks for coming to my ted talk, have a good rest of your day
imo gliscor is a problem beyond just hazard setting, garg was a bulky, status immune monster who could threaten constant chip with salt cure, but was extremely reliant on tera and still was on most people's radars for a while, before falling off the face of the earth. gliscor can do similar things with toxic, maybe not as much immediate pressure but the fact toxic stays even after switching and it has stab eq to hit the two types immune to poison, steel and poison itself, while also being status immune, very bulky, having a ton of other utility, and a great defensive typing even without tera while still also having tera as an option to change its matchups if need be. i'm not saying gliscor and garg are completely comparable, they are still different mons that do different things, but it still feels to me sometimes that gliscor can do most of what garg can do but better, outside of not having iron defense/body press in its arsenal (yes garg also gets recover but honestly poison heal+protect is more than enough recovery for gliscor to stick around.
i really don't see why people want to keep it around other than that people are so desparate for defensive mons that they'll keep this one around even if it is so centralizing its forcing tusk to run ice spinner as pretty much mandatory to succeed and prompting niche options like g-weezing, just because its something to have against the onslaught of insane offensive threats this gen has to offer. others have said it, but relying on a broken checks broken way of tiering just isn't healthy and its not worth keeping gliscor around just because its a defensive option against other broken mons, those should just go too later down the line if they're a problem.
now don't get me wrong, i think gholdengo is a load of horse crap too, on top of its stranglehold on the hazards metagame its also got a fantastic typing, good bulk and power with the move options to support either a bulky set or offensive set, like they really gave this mon everything it could ever need lol, but it really feels like people are underselling gliscor here and just using ghold as a scapegoat instead. in my opinion they are both bullshit and should honestly just both be banned for a much healthier, less hazard focused meta. gambit, manaphy and waterpon should also probably go, and moon's suspect is already ongoing and hopefully will result in a ban, the only thing on that survey that has any business staying in ou for now is sneasler, and even then that's more of it not being an issue enough right now but an eye should really be kept on it.
maybe i'm missing something here, i'm not some mega good high ladder monster at this game, so maybe i just need to get good, and if this is the case then i'd like to hear why people think that gliscor is fine other than just “we need it because it walls broken shit”, like yes some counterplay to it exists but gholdengo and gambit also have counterplay and nobody is trying to defend them as hard as gliscor. but like this seems far worse to me than lando or tusk ever have done, i mean seriously tusk already powercrept lando hard this gen and then gliscor comes along and dunks on tusk so hard you have to run ice spinner on tusk just to keep up with the fact gliscor is that much better as a bulky ground than you lol.
tldr: gholdengo being broken doesn't mean gliscor isn't, there's a lot more to the mon than just spikes, ban both the silly cheese man and the worlds most unkillable scorpion, also everything else on the radar not named sneasler should go too
thanks for coming to my ted talk, have a good rest of your day
Another point I’d like to make is once we have Roaring Moon out of the way… And Kingambit out of the way… And Gholdengo out of the way hopefully... We should honestly take a look at Booster Energy. Iron Valiant / Moth matchup fishes practically rule the tier and are one of the primary reasons why Hyper Offense feels so overwhelming. Yeah, Gholdengo blocking all forms of hazard/screens removal and Kingambit are the most overwhelming issues at the moment, but Booster Energy does seem like a problem, even if not all that focused on. Roaring Moon highlights this too.
2 Valiant/Moth teams match up and preserve their sweepers? The games always end up being the speed tie olympics, creating more 50/50s centralized around those two mons. Forced to waste your Booster but your opponent has preserved theirs? May as well forfeit. Not to mention how people are still complaining about Walking Wake.
Sure, Booster would be much less of a problem if the other brokens weren’t around to compliment the best Booster Energy users and if Tera wasn’t around, but the metagame that Booster Energy + these Pokémon foster is… Pretty ehh. It’s either look at Booster Energy as a whole or start complaining about Valiant after the Roaring Moon/Kingambit/Gholdengo bans or whatever.
2 Valiant/Moth teams match up and preserve their sweepers? The games always end up being the speed tie olympics, creating more 50/50s centralized around those two mons. Forced to waste your Booster but your opponent has preserved theirs? May as well forfeit. Not to mention how people are still complaining about Walking Wake.
Sure, Booster would be much less of a problem if the other brokens weren’t around to compliment the best Booster Energy users and if Tera wasn’t around, but the metagame that Booster Energy + these Pokémon foster is… Pretty ehh. It’s either look at Booster Energy as a whole or start complaining about Valiant after the Roaring Moon/Kingambit/Gholdengo bans or whatever.
i get what youre saying but booster energy is only really a problem on a small handful of mons. only moth/moon/val/wake could be argued as too much with BE (even then i think theyre all fine barring moon maybe), the rest are literally non-issues. booster tusk is great but not exactly broken, same with booster jugulis. hands sometimes uses BE but even then its nothing that cant be handled given its low speed. and all the other paradoxes are terrible as booster energy abusers. its really only the four i mentioned above that are genuinely worth action on w/ booster energy, and besides moon is it really worth tiering action on any of them?
In no way should a Booster Energy test seriously be considered.
Booster Energy's viability is entirely dependant on the stats of the pokemon it's from, in no way is Booster Energy broken seldom.
Wanting to ban Booster Energy is essentially an attempt to artificially nerf Iron Valiant, Iron Moth and Roaring Moon, the only real pokemon that could be considered broken with it.
Sure you could argue that Booster Energy is what breaks these pokemon, but you're also looking at only 3 out of the 14 users being broken with it, while wanting to nerf these 11 other Pokemon. The item is only really successful on these pokemon due to the combination of factors that they hold, their high offensive stats, speed and incredible coverage.
I don't agree that Booster Energy needs to be looked at. It's not like Gems in BW where they buff a lot of abusers to problematic levels. Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle are broken even without considering Booster Energy. Roaring Moon is the only Pokemon that is outright broken with Booster Energy, so the correct course of action is to ban Roaring Moon. Walking Wake's best set isn't even Booster Energy. Iron Moth and Iron Valiant are not broken with Booster Energy, especially not Valiant, which has plenty of counterplay.
Gliscor is a top tier pokemon no doubt but have a think about the metagame before it was around. Pre DLC 1 the premium spiker was samurott-H. People were calling for a suspect on ceaseless edge. Before home, it was Ting Lu. I heard people calling that broken too. Spikers in gen 9 are all the same shit, different smell. and if you think pre home ting lu wasnt as bad as gliscor then i remind you of the rest set it ran.
The PROBLEM is the restriction gholdengo puts on teambuilding. If you want to guarantee removing hazards there are 4 options. Cinderace, hawlucha, weezing/geezing. 3 of those pokemon already have a poor matchup into gholdengo and cinderace just happens to be hard countered by gliscor. With gliscor gone, we will all go back to ting lu, samurott, sandy shocks to get hazards up. with gholdengo gone you can safely use corviknight, levitate weezing, mandibuzz, conkelldurr (lol) to defog, regardless of whatever comes out in DLC 2. Rapid spinners like cryogonal also gain some agency. The flexibility in teambuilding means you have defensive hazard removal to handle other offensive problems too. I would really like to trial a metagame without it, if the suspect happens i hope they remove gholdengo for the 2 weeks so we can see what its like.
ORRRR we could all run defog shiftry and pretend the metagame is totally cool and healthy
0 SpA Shiftry Icy Wind vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 180-216 (51.1 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
0 Atk Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 218-260 (69.2 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
The PROBLEM is the restriction gholdengo puts on teambuilding. If you want to guarantee removing hazards there are 4 options. Cinderace, hawlucha, weezing/geezing. 3 of those pokemon already have a poor matchup into gholdengo and cinderace just happens to be hard countered by gliscor. With gliscor gone, we will all go back to ting lu, samurott, sandy shocks to get hazards up. with gholdengo gone you can safely use corviknight, levitate weezing, mandibuzz, conkelldurr (lol) to defog, regardless of whatever comes out in DLC 2. Rapid spinners like cryogonal also gain some agency. The flexibility in teambuilding means you have defensive hazard removal to handle other offensive problems too. I would really like to trial a metagame without it, if the suspect happens i hope they remove gholdengo for the 2 weeks so we can see what its like.
ORRRR we could all run defog shiftry and pretend the metagame is totally cool and healthy
0 SpA Shiftry Icy Wind vs. 244 HP / 12 SpD Gliscor: 180-216 (51.1 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
0 Atk Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 218-260 (69.2 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Corv is still a fine defogger, but the meta's power level is a bit too high to make really work outside of clearing hazards. The other utility it provides is maybe a bit of Rocky Helmet chip, pressure for stall mirrors, and a slow U-Turn to bring in various threats safely. ID + BP feels like it's needed in order to give Corv the best match-ups vs threats its suppose to handle such as Roaring Moon, Gambit, and Tusk (otherwise it feels like it doesn't have the raw bulk or power to stomach their repeated hits or pose a threat itself) and these sets typically prefer the slow U-Turn as utility over Defog I feel.
What I've noticed is that offensive structures pack a lot of mons that can give corv a hard time, even without Gholdengo. Many of these teams pack mons that will exploit the turn Corv Defogs with free setup or neutralizing it with a move like Encore. Mons that ID Corv can beat like Zama pose a much greater threat it Corv and it's team if it runs Defog over Iron Defense. Roaring Moon and Gambit similarly can feel overwhelming.
Still, in Gliscor's OU, Corv is likely the best it will ever be, especially since it's bringing in mons like ogerpon in for free on gliscor with U-Turn. ID + BP is also one of the better mons at handling Gambit imo.
What I've noticed is that offensive structures pack a lot of mons that can give corv a hard time, even without Gholdengo. Many of these teams pack mons that will exploit the turn Corv Defogs with free setup or neutralizing it with a move like Encore. Mons that ID Corv can beat like Zama pose a much greater threat it Corv and it's team if it runs Defog over Iron Defense. Roaring Moon and Gambit similarly can feel overwhelming.
Still, in Gliscor's OU, Corv is likely the best it will ever be, especially since it's bringing in mons like ogerpon in for free on gliscor with U-Turn. ID + BP is also one of the better mons at handling Gambit imo.
Roaring moon is likely to get banned, and rightfully so. Not that you'd know this from the suspect thread its mayhem over there. That brings the power level down slightly. Which in theory makes corviknight better, but mark my words, the second it's gone wellspring ogerpon is going to slaughter the tier.
Moon is a really solid revenge killer to that and since it doesn't require sucker punch like Gambit it punishes the switch too. Gholdengo and ogerpon are going to feel completely overbearing once the suspect is over while gliscor will stay much the same as it is.
Yeah, that’s honestly a pretty good point once you realize there are 11 other mons that really appreciate being able to use Booster that aren’t anywhere near broken (why did they make Iron Thorns just a worse Tyranitar in every way). I think it’s more of me just looking at Valiant and Moth in the vacuum of OU than Booster as a whole. Which is why I see Valiant getting on the radar once Roaring Moon/Kingambit/Waterpon/Gholdengo are all out of the way, not sure if it’ll exactly be ban-worthy though. Booster as a whole being on the radar is a bit much considering how Booster Sandy Shocks and Iron Treads are actually primarily healthy OU presences in comparison to Valiant.
actually, out of those two, the latter is the one that flipped me on gholdengo. anyone can make long, well-researched posts on anything and still be totally wrong (examples: people writing 5-paragraph essays on why darkrai is totally fine now and would definitely run 4 attacks boots instead of nasty plot, my own pre-home analysis of giratina-a, some of the posts in the dynamax suspect thread—seriously, check it out sometime, the dnb side's mental gymnastics are incredible), but the fact that the arguments for it staying are that weak is what made me think "all right, maybe this thing should go"
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