Stalling or Balling? Why not both?

[SquirtleSquad626]

Have you ever built a team that, in your gut, you feel should be a top notch threat, but in practice proves less than effective? Well, that is what I've come up against with this team. I have always preferred defensive teams to hyper offensive ones, and this was supposed to be the stall-team-to-end-all-stall-teams... I'm still at a positive ratio, but I'm 10W/8L. I was hoping that you, the great people of smogon, who have helped me greatly before, could once again give me some advice. The hope of this team is to set up hazards, spread poison or burns, and stall the opponent into submission.

~~Teambuilding Process~~

As no stall team is complete without hazards, I decided I needed a dedicated spiker, and who better than Froslass. She is one of the most underrated pokemon IMO, and has so many potential uses.

Now I needed a spinner, to repel opposing entry hazards, and I went with Hitmontop. With foresight and reasonable bulk, I typically have no problem getting hazards off the field.

Then we move on to part 1 of the defensive core. Empoleon and Gligar complement eachother marvelously: each resisiting the others weaknesses, and one walling specially while the other walls physically.

Part 2 of my stalling core is Umbreon and Cofagrigus, another complimentary duo who tend to patch up eachother's weaknesses well. these two have a fairly easy time stalling most threats with their individual talents.
~~The Team- In Practice~~

Frost- Dedicated Lead
Froslass@ Focus Sash
Timid Nature
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 Spd, 252 SpAttk, 4 SpDef
-Spikes
-Taunt
-Destiny Bond
-Ice Beam​

Role: She is my dedicated lead/spiker, doubling as a spin blocker, and tripling as a suicide bomber. She is also a great counter offensively to flygon, and taunting opposing leads like 80% of the time isnt bad either. Her overall role, however, can vary greatly depending on the opponents team. The plan is to set up at least a layer of spikes (hopefully two depending on the opposing team and the needs of my own) before either dying straight up, or taking an enemy with her with Dbond. Faster leads and Xatu can cause her problems, though. EVs and Nature allow for Max speed for her to get her job done.
​

Twister- Rapid Spinner
Hitmontop@ Leftovers
Impish Nature
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP, 252 Def, 4SpDef
-Foresight
-Rapid Spin
-Close Combat
-Stone Edge​

Role: Basically the primary function of this lil top is to spin away enemy hazards... but I'm guessing you already knew that. foresight almost guarantees I get them away, and CC and SE provide decent coverage, although I though about Sucker Punch, Toxic, or Stealth Rock. He is, despite his usefulness, my least favorite of the team. EVs allow him to be respectfully bulky on either end of the spectrum, and intimidate helps him against prominent physical attackers attempting to hinder his spinning.​

Trident- Stealth Rocker/SpDef Tank
Empoleon@ Leftovers
Timid Nature
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP, 252 SpDef, 4 Def
-Stealth Rock
-Scald
-Ice Beam
-Roar​

Role: With his unique defensive typing, great synnergy with Gligar, useable SpAttk even without investment, and useful movepool, Empoleon holds its own as a great special tank. He is usually able to set up SR, and then either attack with stab Scald (30% burn is a godsend) or Ice Beam, or proceed to phaze with roar. Bronzong, snorlax, and umbreon are his arch enemies, and some physical juggernauts (Darmanitan and Mienshao primarily) can stop him outright, however that brings us to...
​

Goof Ball- Physical wall
Gligar@ Eviolite
Impish Nature
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 252 HP, 252 Def, 4 SpDef
-Taunt
-Toxic
-Roost
-Earthquake​

Role: Nothing about his appearance scream "Defensive Behemoth," but it couldn't be more contrary. When paired with Empoleon, the two offer amazing defensive synnergy, and the little scorpion-bat can sure take a hit physically. Roost allows it to shrug off certain damage, Toxic to DOT opponents, and EQ for a decent STAB move, making it not total taunt bait. The last slot used to be U-Turn for momentum, but Taunt ultimately proved more useful on the likes of Bulk up scrafty and opposing walls like umbreon. Immunity helps it tremendously, as it is immune to T-wave AND Toxic, two common statuses.​

Luna-Special Wall/ Cleric
Umbreon@ Leftovers
Calm Nature
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP, 252 SpDef, 4 Def
-Wish
-Heal Bell
-Foul Play
-Protect​

Role: I EFFING LOVE UMBREON!!! Ever sinve her release in GSC, Umbreon has held a permanent spot in my heart. Her ability to hel others makes her the premier Cleric IMO, and her fantastic bulk allows her to tank special hits even from LO or Specs boosted sweepers, then shrug it off with wish/protect. I Usually have Toxic on her moveset, but I wasnt willing to sacrifice any of the other moves. Foul play makes Umbreon also a viable physical attacker, as even with 0 attk IVs, most UU powerhouses have better attk stats that umbreon does. Heal bell to remove all statuses from my team, which I honestly can't speak highly enough of. Although, this makes 2 pokes with a fighting weakness and less-than-perfect Def stats, so on to...​

Curse- Defensive Tank/Disruptor
Cofarigus@ Leftovers
Bold Nature
Ability: Mummy
EVs: 252 HP, 252 Def, 4 SpDef
-Will-o-Wisp
-Shadow Ball
-Haze
-Pain Split​

Role: acts as a secondary spinblocker for my much needed entry hazards, as well as a solid defensive tank. it evens out my fighting weakness, and provides burns, hazing, and decently reliable healing with pain split. also, I've found its ability to be fairly useful too, making opposing physical attackers lose their prescious abilities.

Summary:
The team is made up of stellar pokemon IMO, and just needs some tweaks to improve fuctionality. Any and all suggestions will be considered, although I'm mostly hoping for EV and movepool tweaks (I've grown fairly attatched to these guys). ​

 

[everybody]

Those nicknames... I can't help but remember fighting those pkmns. Did you remember a battle with Flygon/Scrafty/Cresselia/Swampert?

You think you can replace Close Combat for Hi Jump Kick? It takes better advantage of Foresight, it is slightly stronger, and it doesn't reduce your much needed defenses. Its just a bit scary without foresight up.

Funny, I'm about to make a UU RMT of that team I fought you with.

 

[Moose V]

I think you probably don't need empoleon. I'd give gligar rocks instead of taunt or toxic and replace empoleon with defensive zapdos with roar. That way, you get a much more effective wall that completely shuts down honchrow when gligar can't, maintain your ability to phaze and can actually deal some damage. Zapdos would also help you out with a mixed virizion and CM suicune weakness I see on your team.

Not huge, but I'd give hitmontop sucker punch over stone edge. Your team has no priority otherwise and it might make the difference between getting swept and pulling out the victory. Also I'd say avoid using such inaccurate moves on a wall. BTW hitmontop doesn't get rocks so that isn't an option.

Another option I just thought of would be giving gligar knock off. Seeing as your team is pretty much uber stall, it could help outstall other teams with similar builds.

Do you have a threat list for this team other than the ones I mentioned? I'd love to give you more advice but I kinda wanna know what guys are giving you the most trouble so I could form my suggestions appropriately.

Not bad for a stall team. Looks very annoying to go up against =)


@everybody
Bad idea. Ghost types are very common switch ins to hitmontop and HJK is way to risky. You never know when an opponent will have an unexpected protect or when you'll just plain miss, both scenarios leaving hitmontop crippled with no recovery move. The very slight boost in power does not justify its complete lack of reliability.

 

[saPower1000]

I think it's an interesting team that can work well, but I see a couple problems. One is bulky water types, like Milotic and Blastoise. Other than Status, there is really no way to harm them outside painsplit, or Dbond, as Foul Play won't be doing much considering they don't have high Attack. All though toxic and W.O.W can be annoying for them, they both have access to refresh and rest, and though you can taunt them or, they can hit Froslass and Gligar quite hard with a STAB Scald. Granted you have Empoleon for that, so as long as you keep it alive it's not to scary. However, Pokemon like Chandelure are what can really screw you up. If it's Choice Specs and carries Fire Blast, it OHKOes your entire team bar Empoleon and Umbreon, which it 2HKoes. That means you have to bank on either a miss if you are going to switch in anything, since it also outspeeds your entire team bar Frosslass, which they can predict coming in and just switch out (if they see Dbond coming), or just swith to something they don't mind losing to SR. Like moose V said Sucker Punch would be really good here, as it can scare out Chandelure. Otherwise, it's most likely going to net a kill on something. Also, I feel that some rock setters like Rhyperior and Bronzong can be trouble as well, as Bronzong could care less about burn, and Rhyperior does a minimum of 49% to Cofagrigus, and Cofagrigus can't outspeed it, so you would have to rely on gligar or hitmontop to block it. What I'm saying here is that, your team is REALLY reliant on certain aspects and if it loses one, it somewhat falls apart. Like I said pokemon like Chandelure, and Rhyperior can still do a bit of damage even to your physical walls if they predict a switch, and can bait you into getting screwed. I don't see it much, but Standard Speed Boost Sharpedo is a big threat too, as it can have a field day 4 of your pokemon. Granted, you'll hopefully be able to keep your hazards up for awhile, to cut down their health with the double spin block you have, but still Chandelure is really dangerous to both of them since they really can't touch it (and can't switch in). So Priority in the form of Sucker Punch and even Aqua Jet for Empoleon could be nice.

 

[Galco]

Honestly I would swap Empoleon for Snorlax. Resttalk whirlwind snorlax phases amazingly and if you're forced to switch snorlax out after a rest and you don't trust sleeptalk you've got umbreon in the back to wake it up later. Not to mention its Body slam carries the potential to paralyze opposing walls like Umbreon which could make the game for you with a couple of lucky parahax. Or to deal with Chandelure you could carry a Choice banded snorlax with Crunch/EQ. Easily dealing with Chandy if memory serves me correctly.
Then let gligar be the Stealth Rocks setup.

You could always try Qwilfish over frosslass, though that might just open up more holes for you as a lead Mismagius would outspeed Qwilfish. Barring that it can carry Destiny bond spikes and tspikes and can still use destiny bond on many potentially threatening slow enemies. Just as well it would be easier to keep Qwilfish alive than Frosslass.

 

[saPower1000]

Honestly I would swap Empoleon for Snorlax. Resttalk whirlwind snorlax phases amazingly and if you're forced to switch snorlax out after a rest and you don't trust sleeptalk you've got umbreon in the back to wake it up later. Not to mention its Body slam carries the potential to paralyze opposing walls like Umbreon which could make the game for you with a couple of lucky parahax. Or to deal with Chandelure you could carry a Choice banded snorlax with Crunch/EQ. Easily dealing with Chandy if memory serves me correctly.
Then let gligar be the Stealth Rocks setup.

Yeah Snorlax would be perfect, and with thick fat that can be your counter to Chandelure for sure, not to mention it pretty much walls any non-physical Ghost type.

 

[everybody]

@everybody
Bad idea. Ghost types are very common switch ins to hitmontop and HJK is way to risky. You never know when an opponent will have an unexpected protect or when you'll just plain miss, both scenarios leaving hitmontop crippled with no recovery move. The very slight boost in power does not justify its complete lack of reliability.

I mentioned to use it in conjunction with foresight right? Thats alright CC is still a good choice.

 

[KM]

I mentioned to use it in conjunction with foresight right? Thats alright CC is still a good choice.

Foresight doesn't stop protect, Foresight doesn't prevent misses, and Foresight doesn't do anything against dual ghosts. CC is definitely the better choice.

 

[everybody]

Foresight doesn't stop protect, Foresight doesn't prevent misses, and Foresight doesn't do anything against dual ghosts. CC is definitely the better choice.

Whoops then I guess I noobed-out. Sorry, stick with CC.

 

[SquirtleSquad626]

@everybody- I actually thought of HJK over CC, so dont feel noobish. I opted for CC dt its accuracy in the end.

@moose V-aside from the threats you mentioned and the ones saPower1000 mentioned, a well predicting LO Raikou has actually swept a majority of my team, despite my special walls:/ also, boosters like CM suicune dont tend to last long because i haze or phaze them as soon as I see one come in, but you are right about Zapdos. He would help tremendously, although adding another ice weakness. I would love more feedback though, and I will definitley use SP over SE on Htop. Knock off is an option I hadnt thought of until I battled a Knock-off Cofagrigus who forced me to switch countless times, so i will definitiely test it out:)

@saPower1000- bulky waters have proven to be a menace for me, and I dont have a legit way to handle rest/refresh sets at all, so i typically just phaze em out and try to deal with them with residual damage. I think zapdos would aide that immensely. Also, what are your thoughts on grass knot on empoleon? it would ease the pressure from waters a bit, as well as provide a good answer to swampert.

@Galco- This might be a confession bear, but I've never used a snorlax before!! lol I guess i just never liked him much. although, looking at his stats and capabilities, I love the idea of a banded pursuit snorlax for trapping chandys, or maybe even the rest talk phazer set. I will play around with him and see witch I like:) quilfish over froslass is something i had considered but i ultimately went for speed over durability in my spiker. this isnt set in stone, though, and maybe I will try out the spiney little pufferfish.

 

[Trainer Au]

Hey,

You're team is pretty much 6-0'd by Togekiss.

You can give Umbreon Inner Focus but having a Zapdos is probably a much better idea.

 

[SquirtleSquad626]

@ Trainer Au- Paraflich Tkiss doesnt work if umbreon is alive. He can safely switch in on T-wave or even body slam, Synchronize the paralysis to Tkis, and spam heal bell until it works. Tkis has nothing else bar nasty plot aurasphere to touch Umbreon, but maybe I havent seen all the variants. could you further explain how Tkis beats the whole team? I would hate to encounter one and get wrecked.

 

[Galco]

@ Trainer Au- Paraflich Tkiss doesnt work if umbreon is alive. He can safely switch in on T-wave or even body slam, Synchronize the paralysis to Tkis, and spam heal bell until it works. Tkis has nothing else bar nasty plot aurasphere to touch Umbreon, but maybe I havent seen all the variants. could you further explain how Tkis beats the whole team? I would hate to encounter one and get wrecked.

I think I can help with that.
After 1 nasty plot it 2HKO's your entire team :l.
The only things remotely threatening to the typical bulky max SpA TKiss on your team is Frosslass whom outspeeds it and can kill it with or without destiny bond. As a +0 is a 2HKO. +2 Is a 2HKO thanks to focus sash, and frosslass can 2hko it with Ice beam, then destiny bond whatever comes in on it.
So I don't know where that guy gets Togekiss 6-0's your team. More like 5-0's after Frosslass suicides.

Your best counter to it currently is using toxic on it, and walling it with umbreon, as roost doesn't outlast toxic + wish protect stall. Though he could always do 2 more nasty plots and 1HKO umbreon with +6.

Zapdos being probably your best bet for dealing with this set as offensive Zapdos could take 3 +2 hits and possibly 1HKO it. Specially defensive Zapdos can take 5 +2 hits and possibly 2HKO it. Snorlax can survive 1 +2 aurasphere but after that even it dies. Kinda unfortunate.

 

[saPower1000]

In response to grass knot, that would work real well on Empoleon. I would assume you would slash IceBeam for it. However, a Zapdos is your best bet for all bulky waters. If it had HP Grass you can lure out the Swampert by scarring things off with the threat of T-bolt and either attempt to hit it on the switch in, or stomach a possible avalanche and go for a 2HKO (if you don't predict). Max Attack Adamant Swampert's Avalanche does from 76.6% - 90.1% on a 252/0 Zapdos so if it switches into a Grass Knot it's either a KO-2HKO depending on if you invest ev's in Sp. Atk AND the Swampert is running 252 HP/216 Sp. Def. No Sp.atk investment, no boosting nature Zapdos deals 67.33%-80.2% to 252/0 Swampert. Swampert will never outspeed you, so the only time you should be afraid of it is if you mispredict or send Zapdos in on it (if you do send Zapdos in, they might anticipate the HP Grass. The only potential threat to a Zapdos is Avalanche Swampert if it hits second or simply crits you, so if you can get a HP Grass Zapdos, that is your best bet for all bulky water types.

 

[Trainer Au]

@ Trainer Au- Paraflich Tkiss doesnt work if umbreon is alive. He can safely switch in on T-wave or even body slam, Synchronize the paralysis to Tkis, and spam heal bell until it works. Tkis has nothing else bar nasty plot aurasphere to touch Umbreon, but maybe I havent seen all the variants. could you further explain how Tkis beats the whole team? I would hate to encounter one and get wrecked.

Kiss gets basically a free switch vs gligar, cofag, and hitmontop, and can potentially Nasty Plot on your switch to Umbreon.

0 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 90-108 (22.84 - 27.41%) -- possible 5HKO

0 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 58-69 (14.72 - 17.51%) -- 9HKO at best

+2 0 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 114-135 (28.93 - 34.26%) -- possible 4HKO

+2 0 SpA Togekiss Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 180-214 (45.68 - 54.31%) -- 4.69% chance to 2HKO

Even without a NP, Kiss is doing enough to pressure you, and after it knocks you down low enough it can NP predicting your wish. Regardless, Kiss can realistically beat Umbreon 1v1 if it gets enough flinches.

@Galco 5-0, 6-0, point is his team has trouble vs it. I left out the fact that Lass beats it since it's a suicide lead and can only RK Kiss.

Hide

252 SpA Froslass Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Togekiss: 152-182 (40.64 - 48.66%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Froslass Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Togekiss: 152-182 (40.64 - 48.66%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Kiss can take one, T-Wave, then flinch it to death.

The above explanation is why I believe a Spdef Zapdos would fit better on your team.


Zapdos can also deal with Crobat and Shaymin which are other big threats to your team.

Hide

Crobat Taunts a lot of your team and Shaymin:

252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 140-165 (35.53 - 41.87%) -- 88.53% chance to 3HKO (2HKO with Rocks)

252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 278-329 (70.55 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If Shaymin gets the drop it forces you to sack something.

Sorry for the crappy rate before, hope that is better. GL.

 

[SquirtleSquad626]

@trainer au- i really appreciate the in depth analysis:) I had no idea what a threat Tkis was, since i rarely see them, so i will definitely look at zapdos since he seems to help a few holes in my team. i also might consider a Tkiss for myself after seeing this.