Stall Princess 2: The Tudor Queens

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

What could be more stalled than marrying six times? And I'm NOT REPLACING MILOTIC, so please stop suggesting it!

Introduction: My competitive philosophy is that a win is not a win unless one has thoroughly enjoyed it, and I am sadistic enough to call stall my favorite battling tactic. However, whether or not I can truly master it is another matter entirely. Initially, I played around using useful, speedy or status-heavy, yet shallow pokemon like Starmie and Roserade. Unfortunately, I realized their so-called supporting abilities were much better on offensive teams as their stats reflect a predisposition for attacking, bolstered with amazing support movepools. The team itself, also carried numerous weaknesses and had a bias for both special attacking and defending.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68339

I studied several great examples of stall teams--in ALL tiers, though Obi will always be a special mention in the name of stall. I began to realize that the key to making any great team, stall no exception, was making sure one had all the right elements... I realized to be successful, I'd need:

A. One of every entry hazard (Expecting to get at least two of them down per game)

B. A ghost type spinblocker to ensure that they stay down.

C. A phazer to make sure my entry hazards are active members of my team.

D. My own rapid-spinner to stop my opponent's entry hazards.

E. A wish-passer to make sure each of my pokemon can be reused again and again.

F. A cleric, so that everything may run smoothly... for me!

G. Other incentives for my opponent to switch!

Katherine of Aragon
Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Evs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SpD
Impish Nature
~ Earthquake
~ Slack Off
~ Stealth Rock
~ Roar
As the best stall lead in standard as well as the cream of the crop in physical defense, I felt Hippowdon was an easy choice. With stealth rock and sandstorm, Hippowdon has already established itself as a major team-player. Roar is infinitely more useful than Ice Fang here as Latias has been eliminated from the tier and Salamence very well might follow. Speedy suicide leads like Azelf and Roserade have incredibly dampened usefulness with Sandstorm and play and if they think they can outspeed and taunt me, I'll just switch to something that counters them--Blissey for Roserade and Spiritomb for Azelf. One STAB move at its disposal and many other ways to damage the opponent let me stick to the standard ev spread, maximizing its defenses and ignoring its offenses, although 260 attack and a STAB Earthquake will still kill some things. Katherine of Aragon was Henry VIII's first wife and was stubbornly traditional to the bitter end when it came to annulling their 24 year long marriage.

Anne Boleyn
Spiritomb @ Leftovers
Evs: 252 HP / 140 Def / 116 SpD
Calm Nature
~ Curse
~ Will=O=Wisp
~ Dark Pulse
~ Rest
People think I'm absolutely crazy for using Spiritomb in such a capacity, but it's definitely crazy enough to work. Will-O-Wisp allows me to cripple those physical attackers while Dark Pulse lets me hit everything--it may not have the special defense drop of shadow ball, but I don't need to rely on hax to know it'll be without immunities. Curse is what really makes this pokemon special as it'll be guaranteed to do at least a quarter of damage with the possibility of forcing a switch. While it'll cost me half my health, Spiritomb can easily Rest it all back the following turn (usually on the switch) and then I'll have Blissey clear the status, allowing me to rinse and repeat. Ghost Curse gives me an entirely new win condition that no opponent will be prepared for.. Anne Boleyn went from being Henry's most favored to his most hated, and is notorious for being the first wife he had executed. Henry accused her of being a witch as well as sleeping with over a hundred men, including her own brother (not that there was any actual proof)! She was outspoken, manipulative, and conniving--there was plenty of proof that she was a bitch!

Jane Seymour
Milotic @ Leftovers
Evs: 252 HP / 248 Def / 8 Speed
Bold Nature
~ Surf
~ Ice Beam
~ Hidden Power Electric
~ Recover
Milotic's popularity has waned over the years, but that doesn't mean she's still not a great team player and bulky water. She reaches 200 speed to get the better of many base 80s while having pretty spectacular defenses of 394 HP/281 Defense/286 Special Defense. With 236 Special Attack, she can still OHKO Salamence without any offensive investment. She also holds Hidden Power Electric to slam other waters in their faces before they can setup on her--Taunt-Gyarados will NOT be able to switch into this girl. Milotic was a notorious Garchomp counter for many years, but with him gone, she needs even less investment to clean up the dragons of the OU tier. Jane Seymour was Henry's favorite wife, having given birth to a male heir (though she would die in child birth)and holding a grace and sweetness that many of his other wives lacked.

Anne of Cleves
Forretress @ Leftovers
Evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
~ Spikes
~ Toxic Spikes
~ Rapid Spin
~ Payback
Forretress can make a decent mixed wall with special defensive investment and it needs to be able to wall both ends of the spectrum at least decently as my central entry hazard setter. I can switch it in at will to disassemble my opponent's rocks or reset mine. While explosion was going to go as its sole attacking move, I realized Payback was the much superior choice as explosion is volatile for such an integral part of my team, and Payback punishes any spinblocker who thinks they can rain on my parade. Forretress only truly fears fire attacks which is what I have my Bulky water for... While ideally I'll get both spikes and toxic spikes up, it's more than likely I'll just choose one according to what team I'm battling... I'll be sure to use spikes if my opponent still has a poison type alive. Anne of Cleves was so terribly ugly that she and Henry never consummated their marriage, but she remained a BFF of the King, after their marriage was annulled.

Catherine Howard
Blissey @ Leftovers
Evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
~ Aromatherapy
~ Softboiled
~ Flamethrower
~ Seismic Toss
The best special wall in the game is befitting on any stall team, though with so many defensive options, I felt Blissey could pull her own weight more if she could take down some threats, herself, besides just walling them. Flamethrower is for the Scizor switch-ins and also knocks Gengar around while Seismic Toss is the best way to smack Heatran. Blissey is mainly used to keep Spiritomb going strong as its ability to burn threats lets Blissey wall just about anything. Blissey lets Spiritomb continue doing its dirty work while Spiritomb cripples threats that might KO Blissey. Spiritomb's resistances have perfect synergy with Blissey and on top of the entry hazards, they are capable of eliminating most anything before it can setup.Catherine Howard was Henry VIII's youngest wife and was the second to be executed for lying about her virginity when she married the king--she was between 17 and 21 at the time of her death, and was apparently very good in bed.

Catherine Parr
Zapdos @ Leftovers
Evs: 248 HP / 228 Def / 32 SpD
Bold Nature
~ Thunderbolt
~ Substitute
~ Roost
~ Roar
Zapdos is not a contender one sees on a stall team often, but it rounds out my resistances quite beautifully and is well worth my only stealth rock weakness. It carries Substitute to make it nigh invincible--it doesn't need Hidden Power Grass or Ice because Milotic and Blissey have my special moves covered. It is my second phazer and can be a little bit more flexible than Hippowdon as it can outright kill Skarmory or outspeed it and roar it off as well as roar away Blissey who think they can switch in and take the Thunderbolt. While 286 Special Attack is Zapdos' bare minimum, it still gets the job done when you consider Zapdos is meant to be taking hits, so anything else it can kill is icing on the cake. Catherine Parr was Henry VIII's last wife and one of the older ones, eventually outliving her husband. She had already married many times and her religious beliefs were so shrouded in mystery that Henry had her arrested at one point, but she remained ever solemn toward the end of his life.

 

[BKC]

A few things:

Drop Hypnosis on Milotic. The accuracy is a turnoff by itself, but with the Toxic Spikes, it's a waste of a move. I would recommend throwing Hidden Power Electric on there, as now you have a check to bulky Dragon Dance Gyarados, as it can Taunt, set up, and tear right through your team. Milotic will 2HKO Gyara, while Gyara can't even 2HKO with a +2 Stone Edge unless both hits get max damage.

Another suggestion, throw Substitute on Zapdos. That, Pressure and Toxic Spikes will really help wear your opponent down. I'd suggest dropping Hidden Power Grass, as the only thing Thunderbolt doesn't hit is Ground types, who get fucked up by the Toxic Spikes, so you can just Sub, Roost, rinse, repeat.

Second to last thing: change Forretress to a Relaxed nature, a 0 Speed IV, with an EV spread of 252 HP/144 Defense/112 Attack, with a moveset of Toxic Spikes/Rapid Spin/Explosion/Gyro Ball. I always found Payback useless on Forry, as it never KOs the Ghosts that switch in to spinblock and they cripple Forry easily with Will-O-Wisp, stopping it from 2HKOing after the burn. Even though you have a Bliss to Aromatherapy, it'd be a waste. Also, physical Forretress outclasses special Forretress, you have Bliss which has all the Sp. Def in the world.

Last suggestion, I like your Spiritomb, but replace Dark Pulse and Will-O-Wisp with Shadow Ball and Hidden Power Fighting. This way you get perfect coverage, and you don't have to worry about an immunity stopping your Sp. Def drop attempts. Will-O-Wisp is wasted on a Toxic Spikes team anyways.

Overall, great team, and props on the use of Milotic and Spiritomb. With your permission, I'd like to try this team out sometime.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

A few things:

Drop Hypnosis on Milotic. The accuracy is a turnoff by itself, but with the Toxic Spikes, it's a waste of a move. I would recommend throwing Hidden Power Electric on there, as now you have a check to bulky Dragon Dance Gyarados, as it can Taunt, set up, and tear right through your team. Milotic will 2HKO Gyara, while Gyara can't even 2HKO with a +2 Stone Edge unless both hits get max damage.

Another suggestion, throw Substitute on Zapdos. That, Pressure and Toxic Spikes will really help wear your opponent down. I'd suggest dropping Hidden Power Grass, as the only thing Thunderbolt doesn't hit is Ground types, who get fucked up by the Toxic Spikes, so you can just Sub, Roost, rinse, repeat.

Second to last thing: change Forretress to a Relaxed nature, a 0 Speed IV, with an EV spread of 252 HP/144 Defense/112 Attack, with a moveset of Toxic Spikes/Rapid Spin/Explosion/Gyro Ball. I always found Payback useless on Forry, as it never KOs the Ghosts that switch in to spinblock and they cripple Forry easily with Will-O-Wisp, stopping it from 2HKOing after the burn. Even though you have a Bliss to Aromatherapy, it'd be a waste. Also, physical Forretress outclasses special Forretress, you have Bliss which has all the Sp. Def in the world.

Last suggestion, I like your Spiritomb, but replace Dark Pulse and Will-O-Wisp with Shadow Ball and Hidden Power Fighting. This way you get perfect coverage, and you don't have to worry about an immunity stopping your Sp. Def drop attempts. Will-O-Wisp is wasted on a Toxic Spikes team anyways.

Overall, great team, and props on the use of Milotic and Spiritomb. With your permission, I'd like to try this team out sometime.

Thank you very much, I will take all of your suggestions into consideration. The Hypnosis on Milotic was intended for any of the poison types or levitators who get past Toxic Spikes as over half the pokemon in OU get past them. Likewise, willowisp on Spiritomb lets me stop physical attackers who will gio after Blissey. I like being able to choose Spikes or Toxic Spikes on Forretress because I can scout my opponent's team and setup traps accordingly. I am most likely going to put Hidden Power Electric on Milotic and Substitute on Zapdos because it will make my staying/slaying power that much more efficient. If Payback is really so terrible on Forretress, I'll put Gyro Ball over it... otherwise, I think I need all three entry hazards and to switch out another pokemon for spikes could upset the resistance/weakness synergy I devised.

Do toxic spikes really interfere with status that much? Also, what would be my best entry hazard options?

 

[BKC]

Thank you very much, I will take all of your suggestions into consideration. The Hypnosis on Milotic was intended for any of the poison types or levitators who get past Toxic Spikes as over half the pokemon in OU get past them. Likewise, willowisp on Spiritomb lets me stop physical attackers who will gio after Blissey. I like being able to choose Spikes or Toxic Spikes on Forretress because I can scout my opponent's team and setup traps accordingly. I am most likely going to put Hidden Power Electric on Milotic and Substitute on Zapdos because it will make my staying/slaying power that much more efficient. If Payback is really so terrible on Forretress, I'll put Gyro Ball over it... otherwise, I think I need all three entry hazards and to switch out another pokemon for spikes could upset the resistance/weakness synergy I devised.

Do toxic spikes really interfere with status that much? Also, what would be my best entry hazard options?

Forretress isn't good enough to set up both Spikes AND Toxic Spikes, and pretty much all you really need on a stall team is Toxic Spikes. As a user of stall teams before, I often found myself thinking my other statuses were wastes of moveslots. Plus, your team has good synergy, so the Pokemon you would want to burn with Spiritomb [e.g. Flygon] can be eaten up by Forretress.

Oh, and you lack a Trick absorber. If you go up against one, I'd let Hippowdon take it, as he has great bulk and can just Roar around until it dies.

I mentioned this before, but you didn't answer: Would you mind if I used this team sometime?

 

[ginganinja]

I would argue that Will-o-wisp should stay on Spiritomb. Most of the thinkgs immune to ppoison are steel types. Such as Metagross or Lucario
I made list of everything in OU that was immune to Toxic Spikes (let me know if I missed one) to see whether Will-o-wisp was viable. I then Bolded the ones effected by Will-o-wisp to an extent (ie affected by the attack lowering effect. I also used Italics to show what were covered by Dark Pulse (ie supereffective). Here is what I got

Gengar
Roserade
Tentacruel
Aerodactyl
Bronzong
Empoleon
Flygon
Forretress
Gliscor
Heatran
Jirachi
Lucario
Magentzone
Metagross
Rotom
Scizor
Skarmory
Zapdos
Salamence
Gyarados
Dragonite
Ninjask
Togekiss
Azelf

Okey first you will note that I classed Skarmory and Bronzong (\with being affected by Burn without counting something like Empleon. I included bronzong other because they used primarly physical attacks which woulld be affected by burn.

Anyway as you can see they are a few pokemon immune to Toxic Spikes in OU. Will-o-wisp is crippling 13 out of the 20 pokemon listed. The only pokemon that are not bothered by Dark Pulse and Will-o-wisp are Togekiss, Ninjask, Zapdos, Magentzone, Heatran, Roserade, Tentacruel.
Heatran is perhapes the major one here with Magnetzone next. Both are pokemon that you would like to have HP Fighting for. However you lose out on crippling pokemon such as Mence, Dragonite etc which are strong physical attackers which, could dent the team if they get a boost. Again Heatran is perhapes THE reason why you would chance to HP Fighting however Milotic can take hits well and so can Blissey.

Summery, I believe that Will-o-wisp is worth its weight on Spiritomb. Most bulky ghost types have the option of running HP Fighting such as Rotom however most prefer Will-o-wisp for crippling pokemon such as Gyarados and Salamence which can be problems to stall teams.

lastly I do think that Spikes is worth it on Forretress. Without spikes we hardly need phasers anyway since all the pokemon would be poisoned on the switch in. I do agree with the Zapdos suggestion though as it it excellent at doing its job of weakening a team down.

Have a Nice Day!

 

[Smith]

I'd Keep the Spiritomb set, I think it very creative and suprisingly cumbersome. You might consider a RestTalk Set for Forretres, or just Rest, simply because you have an aromatherapist to restore his status. This is more of a creative impulse though, and the sp.defensive set is no worries. Still, try it out, think it could be entertaining. :)

I'm a little consider about Nasty Infernape. As far as I can tell, Spiritomb and Zapdos are only shaky checks at best, and everything else dies. You might consider using Starmie over Milotic, who still works against Mence. It could even be your Rapid Spinner, freeing up Forretress to you use a different move, but this is optional of course.

That's all I got, hope I helped.

 

[cmurph]

I'd consider hp ice instead of hp grass on zapdos. HP grass really only hits swampert, who's set up fodder for forry and is easily stalled to death by milotic or blissey. HP ice, on the other hand, helps with your breloom weakness and just overall hits way more pokemon than hp grass, including Flygon, Salamence, Dragonite, and Gliscor. Netting a surprise kill on Gliscor is especially beneficial because stallbreak gliscor can be very problematic for you team as long as it's paired with a good milotic counter. Speaking of milotic, I'd 100% go with hp electric over hypnosis. Why? Because without it you get 6-0d by tauntrados

I tested this team myself with some minor changes. I used Forry as the lead over Hippowdon, with gyro ball over payback to beat Aerodactyl. To be honest I think Hippo is a shitty lead. Forry's not amazing either, but there are several leads that give it multiple chances to set up should they stay in. I'm talking about TTar, Swampert, Metagross, and Jirachi. Hippowdon fares decently against all these guys too, but can't take advantage of multiple turns of set up the way forry can. If these leads stay in on you to set up rocks or trick you a scarf or whatever, you get at least two layers of entry hazards up right off the bat.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

I'm probably going to put substitute on Zapdos anyway as Milotic is still one of the best dragon counters out there--people used it to counter Garchomp! I'm not a big fan about switching anything out because I'm anal about typing and every single weakness and resistance on this team flows together perfectly.

I'm definitely switching Hypnosis for HP Electric on Milotic--one more "Okay" and I'll give Zapdos substitute, too.

 

[cmurph]

I definitely think you should keep hippo, just not as a lead

 

[ginganinja]

Just posting to say that I agree with cmurph in testing Forretress as a lead. Both of them are vulerabel to taunt however like cmurph stated, Forry can set up on may leads.

Have a Nice day!

 

[Delko]

Hello

Looking at your team I notice that your are quite weak to both Scizor and Lucario. This can easily be fixed by replacing Milotic with Gyarados, because Gyarados is incredible bulky on the physical side and Intimidate can help against physical sweepers. I suggest you'd go with the standard Rest-talker set so you have a reliable status absorber. Not only does Gyarados help against Scizor and Lucario but also opposing Gyarados, Salamence, Heatran and Infernape are beaten by him. I suggest the following set:

Gyarados @ leftovers/ impish/ intimidate
248 HP, 248 Def, 12 Spe

- Waterfall
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Roar/ Dragon Dance

--> This is your standard physical wall Gyarados and status absorber. With near max HP and Def this Gyarados is as bulky as possible and with Intimidate it will be hard to kill on the physical side, and the special side as well as that's the better one of Gyarados' defenses. Since Waterfall is your only attack move you need to be careful for Water Absorber, although not common (bare Vaporeon) they wall this set completely. Rest and Sleep Talk are there to make sure Gyarados keeps his health up all the time and sleep can be cured by Aromatherapy. Roar in the last slot will let you absuse you entry hazards even more, but with Dragon Dance you can boost Waterfalls power and proceed on an eventual possible sweep.

On Spiritomb I suggest a EV's spread of 252 HP, 252 Def, 4 SDef because he can need as much defense possible.

If you run Roar on Gyarados it is a bit redundant to use it on Hippowdon and Zapdos as well. On Hippowdon you can run Crunch instead of it so you can have decent coverage. Crunch allows you to take down Lead Azelfs as well. On Zapdos I suggest you'd use the Sub-Roost strategy instead of the set you are running currently. This will let you run Substitute, couple that with Roost and you have yourself a fine PP stalling Zapdos, thanks to Pressure. This way you can easily stall out powerfull foes such as Machamp. The set I'm talking about is:

Zapdos @ leftovers/ timid/ pressure
248 HP, 184 SDef, 76 Spe

- Thunderbolt
- Substitute
- Roost
- Hidden Power (ice)/ Roar

--> Like I said before this set allows you to PP stall a lot of threats. Strategy is simple: come in on some you can get an easy Sub on keep switching between Roost and Thunderbolt. This set is extremely successful since you have another Pressure pokemon who can do a great job at that too. Thunderbolt is an obvious move on Zapdos and is your main STAB'ed attack move. Hidden Power (ice) is the suggested move in the last slot as your team is quite weak to stall breaker Gliscor with Roar, you can abuse your entry hazards as said before. The given EV's let you outspeed the like of Adamant Lucario so you can take him out before it gets to dangerous.

Hope these suggestions helped and good luck with the team.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

Unfortunately, I like Milotic way too much to just replace it with Gyarados, although I'd really love to find a way to put rest-roar Gyarados on this team as I know from experience it's one of the only decent phazer/status absorbers. Besides, neither Lucario or Scizor enjoy Blissey's flamethrower (they LOVE switching into her), Zapdos with a sub down, or Wisp from Spiritomb. I can't think of anything on this team that will be OHKOed unless they have significant offensive augmentation. Zapdos will get Hidden Power Ice after I find room for Gyarados...

I need
A. The best possible moveset for Milotic to pull its weight on this team!
B. A slot for Gyarados that isn't Milotic's
C. A Stealth Rock setting lead if I take out Hippowdon
D. Also, I'd prefer if my weaknesses and resistances complimented each other just as well if not better than now.

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

Bump!

 

[maxbarnyard]

I noticed a minor problem for your team. It looks like you're trying to do a fairly heavy stall team and you don't have a way to absorb Toxic Spikes, which will give most of your team (bar Forretress and Zapdos) a lot less longevity. Though Forretress is bulkier, Tentacruel would be a great way to lay down T-Spikes and absorb them at the same time, and the standard Toxic Spiker set would do pretty well. Additionally, it may slot over Milotic to an extent with high SpD and a similar set of attacks. Just a thought. I like the team over-all though!

 

[c.falcon-arrgh]

Speaking of milotic, I'd 100% go with hp electric over hypnosis. Why? Because without it you get 6-0d by tauntrados

lol, you just finished talking about zapdos and you said tauntrados can 6-0 him.

Hello

Looking at your team I notice that your are quite weak to both Scizor and Lucario.

Zapdos walls both of them pretty much with his EV spread. Lucario cannot OHKO with stone edge, and zapdos can use thunderbolt to fight with lucario. If zapdos fails there's always hippowdon that can take a +2 lucario's CC with ease and kill it off with an earthquake.

I think that this team is really great! Stall teams generally don't have much problems, because you have so many defensive walls that you'll always be able to find someone to stop the common sweepers. However, one thing to note is that your forretress's only offense move being payback makes it very vulnerable to being a free setup for the opponent. If its me i'd replace rapid spin with explosion, but if you want to be able to spin you can just switch payback to explosion. Not only does it stop threat like dragon dance salamence from dealing a load of damage to you (might KO if your milotic gets worn down too much by stealth rock and sandstorm, and the only thing hippowdon can do to salamence is to roar it out in which it can come into forretress again.), it also lets forretress be useful in doing heavy damage after it has served its purpose of putting up hazards.

Another change that you may want to consider is to put sucker punch over dark pulse for spiritomb. Your team lacks a priority, and it may become very frustrating if something like salamence has only 15% health left, is locked into outrage, and you have to get another pokemon to take heavy damage before killing it off. Priority moves are generally useful in most cases anyway so i suggest using it over dark pulse. They do have the same power as well; only that sucker punch is physical which doesn't matter since spiritomb's offensive stats are the same and you just need to change your nature from calm to careful.

Nice team btw. As long as you have a milotic its awesome :D

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

I changed Hidden Power Grass on Zapdos to Substitute...
Should I...

A. Switch Forretress to a solely defensive wall and give him Gyro Ball/Toxic Spikes/Rapid Spin/Explosion?

B. Give Milotic Toxic over Hidden Power Electric to poison fliers?


*I am open to any changes to the team, including the Milotic set, so long as I do not replace Milotic.

 

[ginganinja]

I still think that Milotic needs HP Electric to hit bulky waters, granted you are no doing too much to them anyway. Also many flying pokemon dangerous to this stall team hate being hit my Will-o-wisp.

Not to meantion that its nice to have insurence against Gyarados which, contary to what c.falcon believes, actually does threaten the team since it does 77.6% - 91.67% with a DD stone Edge. Thsts a KO with SR or at the very least means a crippled Zapdos. HP Electric on Milotic means that Gyarados is much less of an issue.

Have a Nice Day

 

[Cipher Admin Lovrina]

Is this team perfect? It's been testing pretty well, but what do you guys say? I want to make it perfect, under the condition that Milotic stays...