Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[Raikou237]

I second this. It was A- last gen and Gen 7 has been very mean to it. Zapdos is now a more common and useful Pokemon that has all the tools to eat Mega Pinsir for breakfast, lunch and dinner. And sure Skarmory isn't as good as it was before but now it has the even better Celesteela to deal with. It also doesn't help that hazard control is a lot worse this Gen, especially for offense. Oh and there's also Magearna and Tapu Koko. I like Mega Pinsir but it doesn't belong in A- right now IMO.

Although its true that zapdos is more common, but on the other hand rotom is much less common, defensive lando dont carry stone edge and skarmory is a much better counter to pinsir than celesteela, because it can use counter on pinsir but celesteela cant ohko it.
Also hazard control being less common means that sticky webs teams are much better, and pinsir beats literaly all the pokemon you listed there bar zapdos under webs.
Also zapdos cant count it 100% of the time if it swithces in when pinsir uses SD
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Pinsir-Mega: 228-270 (84.1 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Return vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Zapdos: 183-216 (47.7 - 56.3%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
With stealth rock is a clean 2hko

 

[Ropalme1914]

I disagree with Pinsir dropping. Like Raikou said, even with Zapdos rise, almost every other Pokémon that has a good matchup against him became less common or does not use the best option against him on a standard set. Also, most of his "counters" cannot switch on his SD, not only Zapdos, but also Celesteela gets 2HKO everytime by +2 Return, and only the Autotomize set can OHKO it. Also, the less hazard control can be a double edge sword, while it hurts him a lot due to his SR weakness, it also power ups him due to Stick Web (which, IMO, he's the best mega for that style). I think it is for sure at very least at Mega Zam level, even with a much lower speed, he has a incredible STAB (great typing with Flying, plus 102 BP with Aerilate), more power due to high BP moves and one of the best priorities in the game. He also can have some mindgames since I think Earthquake is just as viable as Close Combat if not better: it allows to Tapu Koko to be OHKOed which otherwise could be a switch at full health to him, hits Mawile, Heatran and a lot of other relevant Pokémon. Really, it beats a lot of high tier Pokémon on 1v1 like Tapu Lele, Gengar, Heatran, Magearna, Toxapex, Tangrowth, Zygarde, Mega Medicham and others that can especially give some offensive teams a lot of trouble due to them tanking lots of hits, while not being deadweight against any archetype due to his nice bulk, decent speed tier and not being trapped by Dugtrio. Really, his only nerf from ORAS to SM was that Aerilate does not give a boost that high (but it's like, only 10% weaker) but the meta itself balances that. I don't see it on the same level of the likes of Zard X and Hoopa-U who needs a lot more of support since that can't pass a lot of things by themself.

 

[giovanidude]

Why is Magearna not A+?
It's literally busted as hell. I've been seeing allot of shift gear + Z move on the ladder and that set completely obliterates any balance/bulky team that doesn't have heatran. Magearna is so difficult to play around and is 100% on par with the likes of Tapu Lele and Zygarde. Magearna is able to get easy set up opportunities because of its bulk and the switches it forces in general. It's also reallyyyy hard to prevent from setting up because it can also run AV very well. AV walls a ton of mons and together the two sets provide for some mind games. If you get damage and it's AV, you lose a mon and get only 20% off, and if you switch and it's Z + Shift gear, it's free set up (ofc pp, for chimpact). It also has the trick room set, which is very viable.

Magearna is also very customize-able with options for stab, volt switch, t bolt, ice beam, focus blast, and hp fire. This allows magerna to hit any viable OU pokemon it wants. TBH I always get bodied by this thing, mainly Z move. It so scary to face and forces you to play a certain way, not to give it any momentum, or else it can be the beginning of the end. In a way it's allot like Celesteela and Greninja. It's got the coverage of Greninja, the bulk of Celesteela and the diverse utility of both that can act as a surprise factor.

This is all my own opinion, and would like to see what all you guys have to say about magearna.
I think Magearna should move up to A+

 

[thisrandomdude]

Why is Magearna not A+?
It's literally busted as hell. I've been seeing allot of shift gear + Z move on the ladder and that set completely obliterates any balance/bulky team that doesn't have heatran. Magearna is so difficult to play around and is 100% on par with the likes of Tapu Lele and Zygarde. Magearna is able to get easy set up opportunities because of its bulk and the switches it forces in general. It's also reallyyyy hard to prevent from setting up because it can also run AV very well. AV walls a ton of mons and together the two sets provide for some mind games. If you get damage and it's AV, you lose a mon and get only 20% off, and if you switch and it's Z + Shift gear, it's free set up (ofc pp, for chimpact). It also has the trick room set, which is very viable.

Magearna is also very customize-able with options for stab, volt switch, t bolt, ice beam, focus blast, and hp fire. This allows magerna to hit any viable OU pokemon it wants. TBH I always get bodied by this thing, mainly Z move. It so scary to face and forces you to play a certain way, not to give it any momentum, or else it can be the beginning of the end. In a way it's allot like Celesteela and Greninja. It's got the coverage of Greninja, the bulk of Celesteela and the diverse utility of both that can act as a surprise factor.

This is all my own opinion, and would like to see what all you guys have to say about magearna.
I think Magearna should move up to A+

I second this as the rise of ash gren and lele av is a popular set shift gear can run through teams with its z move and tr can be scary to offensive teams

 

[Sun King]

I honestly think Magearna's best set might be Trick Room: it capitalizes on sooooo much and is consistent at any point during the match that you want it to be consistent. AV is really susceptible to certain things like Marowak and while it can wear things down decently well, it can get worn down pretty easily too. Shift Gear can put in work too, but usually there's something alive that can tank a hit and force it out early game.

100% support a rise to A+; Magearna is a monster right now.

EDIT: Trick Room + Z move (Personally I think Z-Tbolt is best) is reallllly good. Can usually net you 2-3 kills per match, which--for TR teams--is exactly what you need it to do, and that's great even outside of TR. Honestly, I think Magearna and Mawile make Heatran even remotely OU because Heatran is the only thing stopping either from running train through the entire meta. @below: SpDef Jirachi is great against Magearna.

 

[Selihido]

I'd also like to lend my support for a Magearna rise. Trick room is I believe her best set (and I don't mean on a trick room team), since she is crazy bulky when invested. I don't have much to add to the discussion, just stating that she should definitely rise to A+.

 

[Seth_]

Magearna is good, but do you know what?

Since beginning of SM I'm running spdef jrachi: iron head, uturn, rocks, t wave and honestly it is so good dealing with any kind of bullshit mons like magearna in any color and flavour (unless you are something like lol specs shadow ball or other ct set), tapu lele, tapu fini (this is especially nice because many teams relay on fini as hazard removal and in most cases it loses 1v1 vs jirachi), celesteela, serperios, and it even does nice job luring zardX and volcarona.

I am so suprised that I'm only one using this set because it was fairly comon back in oras.

Rise jirachi.

 

[Toshiro46]

Jirachi's typing is prepared for on every team by virtue of sharing it with Megagross, which is a point against it. Plus, it has to deal with having mediocre offense's and speed, which means it's either not outspeeding things for flinches and utility or not doing much damage.

A problem with shift gear Magearna is that most scarfers actually still outspeed it at +2.

Edit: My bad, I was thinking of ScarfChomp and didn't realize Shift Gear Mag outsped at +2, the ones I've faced don't run timid ig.

 

[Martin]

I have no opinion on the Magearna nom, but I did want to reply to this.

A problem with shift gear Magearna is that most scarfers actually still outspeed it at +2.

Which of those outside of Dugtrio really pose as consistent threats to it? SG Magearna hits 502 at +2, which is faster than ScarfChomp (which hits 499), and beyond it not many of them can actually RK it particularly reliably considering that Terrak deals 75.7% max, Keldeo deals 62.1% max (both of these get nailed in return by Fleur Cannon or Flash Cannon/Thunderbolt (respectively), good luck even denting it with Nihilego, and idt there even are any other semi-common faster Scarfers short of the kinda rare Greninja/Tapu Koko (neither of which come close to one-shotting it). You are seriously overselling just how easy it is to RK a Shift Gear Magearna once it has set up short of bringing something which is fat enough to tank a hit from it (considering that for basically all of those Scarfers it can afford to take a resisted hit prior), with this being before you consider that stuff like Scarf Keld etc. are going to be pressured throughout the match by checking things like Ash Gren etc. whilst also taking Spikes/SR damage when doing so, and you also fail to account for the fact that the range of Pokemon which can RK it via natural speed gets completely flipped by the OTR set. Priority can be kept in check to decent effect through things like Tapu Lele support (not to mention that it resists Fake Out/ESpeed already), and as far as sweepers go it is reasonably self-sufficient between its good typing (which allows it to force out+set up on a good portion of the meta), Soul Heart (allows it to net boosts off of both KOs (made easier by Z moves) and opps fainting to passive damage) and its really solid bulk even w/o investment.

While obviously battle conditions aren't always gonna be perfect for the Magearna user, the way that SG is played is generally conservative enough to the point that there is a solid chance it will still be healthy enough to take a lot of these hits on and it will often have decent enough battle conditions to secure the sweep.

 

[Niadev]

Jirachi's typing is prepared for on every team by virtue of sharing it with Megagross, which is a point against it. Plus, it has to deal with having mediocre offense's and speed, which means it's either not outspeeding things for flinches and utility or not doing much damage.

A problem with shift gear Magearna is that most scarfers actually still outspeed it at +2.

Except that the scarfers that do actually outspeed Shift Gearna at +2 all fail to OHKO without significant chip, bar Dugtrio (who only does on a roll). Timid Shift Gearna (you should be running Timid on it in order to avoid being outsped by scarfers anyways) reaches 502 speed at +2, putting it above Scarfchomp (who reaches 499). This means you have to play really aggressively against Magearna in order to weaken it for said scarfers. That aren't Scarf Duggy, anyways

Calcs

252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 117-138 (38.8 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock - Geng has to DBond to take out Shift Gearna
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 159-187 (52.8 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - it'll KO after significant chip
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna in Electric Terrain: 157-186 (52.1 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 150-176 (49.8 - 58.4%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO - the typing change makes it a bit more of a hassle to KO but after a boost, Corkscrew OHKOs and after 2 so does Flash Cannon
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 174-205 (57.8 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - most damage so far
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 242-288 (80.3 - 95.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock - wow and it's a roll after rocks

Scarf Nihi is what Shift Gearna sets up on

EDIT: Greninjad

 

[Sun King]

I think what cements Magearna in A+ for me is the fact that it is almost entirely self sufficient; it does not really rely on any teammate, although things that can pressure Heatran (and Sp. Def Jirachi) are greatly appreciated. It would be S tier I think if it did not have a ground weakness because that limits the amount to which it can switch in to things. There are defensive answers to Magearna that also I think hold it back from an S ranking, but the amount of pressure it can place on Offense and Balance make it worth A+ to me. All it REALLY needs to shine is Dugtrio, since that can trap and kill Heatran, Chansey, and Jirachi.

EDIT: the DugMage core is really brutal against stall. It punishes the switch from Sableye to Chansey and causes you to either prevent the MEvo and get rocks up early or you can nab an early Chansey KO, letting you more or less spam Magearna's STABs or bring in another special attacker. Ideally, you will try to get rocks up early so that you can prevent Dugtrio from trapping Magearna, but even sacrificing Magearna to kill Chansey can be okay if you have other Fairy spam or something else that can pressure Sableye. Basically, the stall player is forced into a really ugly position just because of your ability to force out and pressure the two most important members.

 

[giovanidude]

I agree with Sun King. Magearna is very consistent in it's roles. On TR it's nabbing at least two kills, AV is a reliable switch in to psychic types and can act as an immediate stop to a number of strong pokemon (due to typing, bulk, and movepool), and Shift gear forces super aggressive play and has an easy time setting up and sweeping late game after a team has been weakend by about 25% (or it can just snowball with soul heart boost). No matter what, it is going to support a team. It performs well against literally every play style (given the right moveset ofc). Offensive teams have so much potential to get destroyed by an offensive magearna and balance teams have a hard time pressuring it, aside from spikes, because of its bulk and power. Not much OHKOs or takes a hit from this thing. Its stall match up isn't even that bad TBH because of volt switch and being a fairy type that can hurt steels.
It is held back by its low speed, meaning most of the time it has to take a hit, but it doesn't really stop it from putting in work. It can take the hits you need it.

 

[Randompizza]

I agree, Magearna to A+. It's just too solid of a mon to not pass up. Extremely viable and splashable due to it's many sets, including, SG, OTR, and AV. It's versatility is pretty great as well as just being a huge threat in the meta. Every time I use Mage it always picks up minimum 2 kills before it goes down. With OTR being able to sweep more offensive teams, SG destroying bulkier balance-y teams, and AV just being a great pivot into stuff like ash gren and lele, it definitely suits the definition of A+ in my opinion.

 

[Chief of Elementals]

I disagree with Mega Sharpedo and Mega Beedrill. Mega Sharpedo is really good on SW teams, and Mega Beedrill is extremely fast with a nice Attack stat. They aren't nearly as good as the top megas, but they don't need a drop. Maero and MegaSlowbro should drop tho. Slowbro is outclassed as a stall mega by Mega Sableye, and Maero isn't really good.

Even though i love M-Aero in UU, I think that it should drop, because it is outclassed by M-Bee in fast, glass cannon attack. But, Mega Sharpedo should gt booted from where it is, because of all the fairy types in the tier, and being outclassed in it's exact typing by Greninja and Ash- Greninja. Mega Slowbro should stay where it is because of the fact that it is an OK staller, and Trick Room is hard set to beat for the turns that it lasts for, since most of the meta is fast, or faster than Mega Slowbro and It's companions like ferrothorn.

---
Magearna should go to A+ because of it's offensive viability, Soul-Heart making this Steel-Fairy woman snowball quite quickly, and the sets that Magearna are uses are some of the best in OU. As Another Note, Magearna's typing can wall all of the fairy types and the poison types in the tier, giving it a ton of resistances and immunities. Magearna can sweep almost unchecked, and the only checks are Heatran and Probably Landorus-T, If Mags is without Ice Beam and or Earth Power. Magearna can kill and kill and SG solves it's problems with speed.

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

EDIT: the DugMage core is really brutal against stall. It punishes the switch from Sableye to Chansey and causes you to either prevent the MEvo and get rocks up early or you can nab an early Chansey KO, letting you more or less spam Magearna's STABs or bring in another special attacker. Ideally, you will try to get rocks up early so that you can prevent Dugtrio from trapping Magearna, but even sacrificing Magearna to kill Chansey can be okay if you have other Fairy spam or something else that can pressure Sableye. Basically, the stall player is forced into a really ugly position just because of your ability to force out and pressure the two most important members.

Duggy is just generally really good vs Stall. You nuke Pex with little to no effort, and set up rocks vs Chansey/Clefable that you trapped earlier. What has been said here is the cheery on the cake.

I'm planning to experiment with a couple of creative Duggy sets in the near future (and when certain unreleased megas roll around), so stay tuned for that I guess.

Speaking of that, where do we think Duggy can go after the suspect? And what do we think of it now? I heard someone suggesting earlier to drop it slightly due to spike setting Gren(s), but idek.

 

[Sun King]

Duggy is just generally really good vs Stall. You nuke Pex with little to no effort, and set up rocks vs Chansey/Clefable that you trapped earlier. What has been said here is the cheery on the cake.

I'm planning to experiment with a couple of creative Duggy sets in the near future (and when certain unreleased megas roll around), so stay tuned for that I guess.

Speaking of that, where do we think Duggy can go after the suspect? And what do we think of it now? I heard someone suggesting earlier to drop it slightly due to spike setting Gren(s), but idek.

Dugtrio is good in A imo. It has to tailor its sets to hit what it wants; what hits Pex means you give up Sash or Scarf. The fact that it has the luxury of choice is more or less why I think A is a good spot. If you view it on the whole, it's very good, but not too good. It can require some support, but nothing too strenuous.

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Agreeing with Magearna moving to A+. In addition to what everyone else said, Soul Heart making it stronger every time something faints makes it extremely effective on Spike stacking teams, as the damage they cause can make it incredibly powerful.

I would also like to nominate Kyurem-B to A-/B+. Virtually nothing can switch into it, it can beat both Greninjas one on one and more often than not if it gets a free switch in something dies. It does hate entry hazards with a passion, but then so does Volcarona and that's still A rank.

 

[Doug the Duggo]

Definitely agree with Magearna to A+. I think Trick Room is it's best set as long as you don't misuse it to affect your team. Having Max HP just makes you extra fat and pairs very well with Tapu Bulu's Grass Terrain for the Earthquake reduced damage and psuedo-Leftovers.

This is great if you still want to switch in to check something and have enough HP for a later sweep. With the Shift Gear set, you cannot check stuff as much. Also a Trick Room Magearna faces off well against opposing SG Magearna.

Lastly, Trick Room helps against the popular Sticky Web and Scolipede teams floating around.

 

[Colonel M]

I would also like to nominate Kyurem-B to A-/B+. Virtually nothing can switch into it, it can beat both Greninjas one on one and more often than not if it gets a free switch in something dies. It does hate entry hazards with a passion, but then so does Volcarona and that's still A rank.

Kyurem-B is always one of those paper threat mons that in practice doesn't always execute effectively. It's not bad but it's a mon that really suffers in a tier dominated by Metagross. Life Orb is by far the best set for it and it has to make severe sacrifices (beating stall easier, beating balanced or bulkier teams easier, or staying alive with Roost). Icium Z is one of those shock value sets that can do okay but other mons do Z moves better honestly. It also requires support to really be great since its weak to Stealth Rock and is a huge magnet to Mega Mawile / Mega Medicham.

In a tier dominated by Metagross... B definitely stands for Kyurem-B. Even outside of that I would hesitate on B+ and definitely would disagree to A-.

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

I was about to say, KyuB does sound like an interesting case (esp' in this meta). I agree with Colonel M in the sense that A- is a slight stretch (95 base speed with something that lacks consistent Ice STAB isn't exactly great IMO), but we'll see.

I guess something to consider is this: which implications (if any are applicable) do we know of from the MGross suspect meta that benefit KyuB (as well as MGross going (no s**t Einstein))? And how does KyuB stack up against the current B+ and A- ranked mons? If we remember what I said about Kartana, I thought it could rise due to the Pheromosa ban leaving hazard removal in shambles (which the offensive UBs appreciate greatly). Does KyuB get any reward from this? Eh... yes and no, as while Mosa is no longer there to check it - the atrocious state of hazard removal (which KyuB would need due to being SR weak) hurts it's other hand, both figuratively and literally.

Oh and watch out for Rockium Duggy HINT, HINT...

 

[Sun King]

Agreeing with Magearna moving to A+. In addition to what everyone else said, Soul Heart making it stronger every time something faints makes it extremely effective on Spike stacking teams, as the damage they cause can make it incredibly powerful.

I would also like to nominate Kyurem-B to A-/B+. Virtually nothing can switch into it, it can beat both Greninjas one on one and more often than not if it gets a free switch in something dies. It does hate entry hazards with a passion, but then so does Volcarona and that's still A rank.

For a SR weak mon that gets outsped and overwhelmed easily, I think B is a good place. It absolutely does not stack up against the other B+ mons; they all either have better typing, better sweeping capacity, or are generally harder to pressure.

 

[volx757]

disagree with Kyub -> B+/A-

Nothing has really changed for it, it seems the same as ever to me, albeit slightly worse than it was in ORAS where it's scarf set is a fantastic RKer. Kyub hates basically any steel type, let alone mega-metagross. Even when mmeta is gone, kyub will have a hard time with skarm/sciz/tran/cele/mage/ferro/rachi/mmaw, and I don't think it's a stretch to say at least one of these is on practically every team.

It's icium set had a surprise factor which is long gone now. tbh I can't think of a role for which I would consider kyub that I wouldn't be able to find a better pick for. Bulu's woodhammer (in terrain) hits harder than kyub's outrage or subzero slammer. As a scarfer it's outsped and ohkod by every other scarfer after rocks. Banded kyub is IMO always bad (super exploitable). LO/roost or sub/roost are probly it's best options right now. But, as was said, hazards ruin it's day especially if it's subbing or carrying a LO. It faces competition as a wallbreaker from mmaw/mmedi.

The main thing tho is that many of it's checks/counters are highly viable and highly used. And yea also, looking at other B+ mons, kyub isn't as splashable as latios, can't sweep like gyara or zardx, doesn't have the utility of bish or serp or mew/rachi.
B feels right IMO. Kyub can put in work, and a decent player should be able to grab at least 1 kill with it per game, but it definitely requires support (defog/zone/voltturn) to do it consistently.

EDIT: i didn't intend to say all these steels wall all kyub sets, I meant that any 1 kyub set is gonna be walled or at least hard checked by a number of common mons.

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

You're wrong about it hating every Steel type. Ill give you Ferrothorn and bulky Mega Scizor (although it still takes a fair chunk from Fusion Bolt). Skarmory is wrecked by Ice Beam, Celesteela by Fusion Bolt, Heatran and Magnezone are wrecked by Earth Power, which always 2HKOs 248/0 Mega Mawile. Fusion Bolt has a very good chance to 2hko specially defensive Jirachi after rocks (75%).

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

You're wrong about it hating every Steel type. Ill give you Ferrothorn and bulky Mega Scizor (although it still takes a fair chunk from Fusion Bolt). Skarmory is wrecked by Ice Beam, Celesteela by Fusion Bolt, Heatran and Magnezone are wrecked by Earth Power, which always 2HKOs 248/0 Mega Mawile. Fusion Bolt has a very good chance to 2hko specially defensive Jirachi after rocks (75%).

Actually, that's a fair point. I think we did kinda forget that KyuB was a mon built around BoltBeam coverage (which it has in spades).

In regards to it's movepool, however: the thing that I have noticed is the lack of creativity in it's viable options. I have sat down a couple of times to try and make something out of it, only to realize things like "oh BUGGER, it doesn't have proper physical Ice STAB!", and the options it does have don't really synergise with it's stat structure (hence sets like scarf are forced to go mixed)...

IDK, something just doesn't quite click about it. I guess time will tell.

 

[Randompizza]

I honestly agree kyub to B+ (once mmeta is gone, if it leaves) just do to the fact it has such raw power and can deal with so many threats in the meta including steel types. Yeah sure it's not super fast and is prone to steel type attacks, it can definitely crush an opponents team 1 mon at a time. It's also more flexible then most people think, too. Being able to run banded sets that RIP through stall with no effort (every mon gets 2hkoed) and duggy can't trap (eq is a 3hko, tectonic rage doesn't kill and then kyub 1 shots.) LO sets can run all sorts of coverage: hp fire to deal with ferro, zor. epower to deal with tran,etc. And it has it's new toy this gen: icium z, which 1 shots basically anything that isn't a resist and chunks basically all the other walls like skarm. In my opinion the best sets atm are LO, or band though. Especially band in my opinion, since it basically 2hkoes literally the whole meta outside of zor and ferro, literally.

Edit: duggy CAN trap but only if it's sash due to reversal.