Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[Toshiro46]

You don't need a sash on Dugtrio is the thing you're not getting. As robopoke said Z-Quake or scarf is a much better options outside of stall builds that give much more utility than sash and people are starting to use Sub Zmove on stall to get around Mawile and revenge a wider range of breakers.

It should still stay A, being able to trap or revenge 70% of the tier, and is a wonderful support option on many team builds.

I'm well aware of the lack of a need for focus sash. That does not change the fact that focus sash is or was its best set and is now far less effective. The other set ranked at A on the VR setlist is scarf. The only stuff scarf traps that sash didn't are Mega beedrill (garbage mon), scarf excadrill (mediocre and already trapped by sash so long as iron head doesn't flinch), the greninjas (oh wait no it can't OHKO them anyway and is OHKOd in return), and Koko (basically the only good thing it gets with this set that it doesn't with the other). In return, it no longer effectively traps Megagross, Megawile, Megacham (lacking priority, and it loses to Priority no matter what), Hoopa, Magearna, Alowak (so long as it has some defense or HP investment), Chansey, Lele, and every other mon already slower than it that could survive a hit. Basically scarf isn't that great. Meanwhile, Band is B+ and Groundium isn't even ranked. Sure, it picks up OHKOs on some important mons like Medicham and Metagross, but it still falls prey to any priority or just any mons faster than it. Mawile, Gren, Koko, scarfers, etc all don't give a shit about it anymore.

You say it traps 70% of the tier. With its sash down or with groundium, I count roughly a third (definitely less than half) of the mons in OU trapped by it, and something awful like 2 of the BL mons trapped by it.

It's a good trapper with uses, but it seems far more on par with magnezone now and far less useful on everything but stall, which means it fits well with Mega Sableye in A-.

StraightEdgeNexus Your replay is against a team with 5 mons weak to Mega Gyarados's STAB moves. Of course it was going to sweep as soon as Fini was down.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Would think scarf is for boosting mons like quiver dance fire moth or when charz ddds You switch in on that read and I'm sure You could run adamant and still out speed all the same stuff least letting You hit harder than sash while being quicker than band and to edge out some kills like toxpex can't low roll 3 kill ko or stay even with black sludge recover

But scarf is likly the most niche/gimmicky set

 

[Leo]

I'm well aware of the lack of a need for focus sash. That does not change the fact that focus sash is or was its best set and is now far less effective. The other set ranked at A on the VR setlist is scarf. The only stuff scarf traps that sash didn't are Mega beedrill (garbage mon), scarf excadrill (mediocre and already trapped by sash so long as iron head doesn't flinch), the greninjas (oh wait no it can't OHKO them anyway and is OHKOd in return), and Koko (basically the only good thing it gets with this set that it doesn't with the other). In return, it no longer effectively traps Megagross, Megawile, Megacham (lacking priority, and it loses to Priority no matter what), Hoopa, Magearna, Alowak (so long as it has some defense or HP investment), Chansey, Lele, and every other mon already slower than it that could survive a hit. Basically scarf isn't that great. Meanwhile, Band is B+ and Groundium isn't even ranked. Sure, it picks up OHKOs on some important mons like Medicham and Metagross, but it still falls prey to any priority or just any mons faster than it. Mawile, Gren, Koko, scarfers, etc all don't give a shit about it anymore.

You say it traps 70% of the tier. With its sash down or with groundium, I count roughly a third (definitely less than half) of the mons in OU trapped by it, and something awful like 2 of the BL mons trapped by it.

It's a good trapper with uses, but it seems far more on par with magnezone now and far less useful on everything but stall, which means it fits well with Mega Sableye in A-.

StraightEdgeNexus Your replay is against a team with 5 mons weak to Mega Gyarados's STAB moves. Of course it was going to sweep as soon as Fini was down.

Why's sash less effective now? Sash Dug wasn't its best set on Offense because keeping hazards off the field saps a ton of momentum and even with Pheromosa hazard control option were limited. However Offense isn't Dug's best playstyle; it's Stall. Dug is ranked so high mainly for its utility for Stall teams, which hasn't changed at all because stuff that got hazards vs Stall already existed when it was ranked and Stall still has the best hazard control. Most of your initial arguments don't make much sense either if you take the Stall perspective (being outsped by Greninja is irrelevant, it doesn't need 10 moves to trap threats to Stall, etc) so I don't really see your reasoning for it to drop.

 

[Toshiro46]

Why's sash less effective now? Sash Dug wasn't its best set on Offense because keeping hazards off the field saps a ton of momentum and even with Pheromosa hazard control option were limited. However Offense isn't Dug's best playstyle; it's Stall. Dug is ranked so high mainly for its utility for Stall teams, which hasn't changed at all because stuff that got hazards vs Stall already existed when it was ranked and Stall still has the best hazard control. Most of your initial arguments don't make much sense either if you take the Stall perspective (being outsped by Greninja is irrelevant, it doesn't need 10 moves to trap threats to Stall, etc) so I don't really see your reasoning for it to drop.

If a mon is only effective on one playstyle, it shouldn't be ranked higher than the other mons required for that playstyle. Sableye is A-. Dug has limited use on every other playstyle, so A- makes sense for it.

 

[Leo]

If a mon is only effective on one playstyle, it shouldn't be ranked higher than the other mons required for that playstyle. Sableye is A-. Dug has limited use on every other playstyle, so A- makes sense for it.

I didn't say Dug isn't effective on Offense, it's just not as effective as it's on Stall. It's basically the face of Stall right now just as Sableye but has utility outside of that playstyle such as trapping mons for Zard-Y, or Heatran for HP-Ice Volarona, etc making it more versatile than Sab so your comparison doesn't prove anything. I'm not saying it's a splashable mon for Offense but it does have its uses

 

[JinLong88]

Dugtrio A -> A-
...
Furthermore, it can't run all the moves it needs to be a truly effective trapper, as it wants earthquake, sucker punch, memento, reversal, stone edge, rock slide, screech, and even SR, toxic, and aerial ace.
...

Just like to reply to this, and say that Duggy should stay A because it provides the large list of useful moves above to combine for specific team builds, provides an electric immunity,
AND auto prevents a ton of mons from switching out! Not many pokes can do that for 1 team slot

Dugtrio may turn the tide of battle not majorly due to its item, but instead due to its capabilities to grab momentum and break both defensive and offensive cores with non-gimmicky sets.
It's there to help the rest of the team get past a relatively large list of things, not just be a semi-splashable mon with only a few sets a la magnezone

If someone's various team-builds around duggy, makes them feel like focus sash is necessary to make it good ... then they probably need to change how they team build in general

 

[Gary]

RANKING UPDATE

Rises

B- ---> B

C+ ---> B-

C ---> C+

C- ---> C+

C- ---> C

Drops

A- ---> B

B- ---> C+

B- ---> C+

B- ---> C+

B- ---> C+

C+ ---> C

C ---> C-

C ---> C-

C ---> C-

Looks like a big update, but a lot of it was just tidying up the lower niche rankings which is quite boring tbh. The upper ranks feel pretty settled atm anyway, so updates, so bigger updates will probably start to slow down. I'm not going to bother discussing all these changes because most of them are just super niche anyway and were too high in the first place, but there's a few that should probably get an explanation.

• Mega Venusaur dropping two ranks seems pretty harsh, but it was needed. Mega Venu is much like it was in ORAS, a fat Grass that faces fierce competition not only from other Megas, but also other Grass-types in the tier as well, mainly Growth, Moonguss, and Ferro. In a hazard heavy meta combined with relying on a low PP move to keep itself healthy and no passive recovery, it's extremely easy to wear down and put in range for Pokemon such as Ash Greninja, Mega Mawile, Keldeo, and Tapu Koko (especially with NM being a lot more common these days, forcing it to recovery often). Also all Protean Grens run either Spikes or Extrasensory these days, which both really hinder it for obvious reasons, so that's another reason not to use it. Honestly, outside of more offensive presence and raw bulk, Amoonguss can accomplish very similar things without taking up a mega slot or and can consistently check what it wants because of Regen. It's just not a good Pokemon at all atm, and needed to drop hard.
• Mew and Reuniclus have risen because bulky Psychic-types in general are better with Mega Medicham in the tier, which are great for bulky offensive teams and balance considering they can't afford to run Mega Sab. Mew has good utility in general that can soft check lots of stuff, even Meta and Mawile. Reuniclus sets up on quite a bit of defensive Pokemon because of its massive bulk and Magic Guard, so it can be a huge headache for teams lacking a Dark-type (Gren is very easily worn down and can't consistently check it because of its lesser bulk, also Protean doesn't run Pulse as much).
• Azumarill and Cofag have been under the radar threats recently. Belly Drum Azumarill is actually really annoying for even bulkier teams because stuff like Ferro and Pex drop to +6 Knock, and with prior damage on stuff like Metagross, it can sweep offense decently well too that resists most of the common priority. Cofag is much the same, but better vs more offensive teams and can soft check Medi thanks to Mummy which is pretty niche

If you have any questions regarding the other noms, feel free to PM me or any members of the council on here or Discord.

 

[NewfieDude]

RANKING UPDATE

Rises

B- ---> B

C+ ---> B-

C ---> C+

C- ---> C+

C- ---> C
Drops

A- ---> B

B- ---> C+

B- ---> C+

B- ---> C+

B- ---> C+

C+ ---> C

C ---> C-

C ---> C-

C ---> C-

Looks like a big update, but a lot of it was just tidying up the lower niche rankings which is quite boring tbh. The upper ranks feel pretty settled atm anyway, so updates, so bigger updates will probably start to slow down. I'm not going to bother discussing all these changes because most of them are just super niche anyway and were too high in the first place, but there's a few that should probably get an explanation.

• Mega Venusaur dropping two ranks seems pretty harsh, but it was needed. Mega Venu is much like it was in ORAS, a fat Grass that faces fierce competition not only from other Megas, but also other Grass-types in the tier as well, mainly Growth, Moonguss, and Ferro. In a hazard heavy meta combined with relying on a low PP move to keep itself healthy and no passive recovery, it's extremely easy to wear down and put in range for Pokemon such as Ash Greninja, Mega Mawile, Keldeo, and Tapu Koko (especially with NM being a lot more common these days, forcing it to recovery often). Also all Protean Grens run either Spikes or Extrasensory these days, which both really hinder it for obvious reasons, so that's another reason not to use it. Honestly, outside of more offensive presence and raw bulk, Amoonguss can accomplish very similar things without taking up a mega slot or and can consistently check what it wants because of Regen. It's just not a good Pokemon at all atm, and needed to drop hard.
• Mew and Reuniclus have risen because bulky Psychic-types in general are better with Mega Medicham in the tier, which are great for bulky offensive teams and balance considering they can't afford to run Mega Sab. Mew has good utility in general that can soft check lots of stuff, even Meta and Mawile. Reuniclus sets up on quite a bit of defensive Pokemon because of its massive bulk and Magic Guard, so it can be a huge headache for teams lacking a Dark-type (Gren is very easily worn down and can't consistently check it because of its lesser bulk, also Protean doesn't run Pulse as much).
• Azumarill and Cofag have been under the radar threats recently. Belly Drum Azumarill is actually really annoying for even bulkier teams because stuff like Ferro and Pex drop to +6 Knock, and with prior damage on stuff like Metagross, it can sweep offense decently well too that resists most of the common priority. Cofag is much the same, but better vs more offensive teams and can soft check Medi thanks to Mummy which is pretty niche

If you have any questions regarding the other noms, feel free to PM me or any members of the council on here or Discord.

Haha sweet Hydreigon finally rose, just goes to show that if you keep on about something long enough you'll eventually get your way.

But in all seriousness I'm liking these new ranks, the only ones I'm not liking is Cof, Dragonite and Mega Venu. I'll explain each one below:

Cof: Why did this thing rise two ranks but not Hydreigon? I really don't see what this thing does to warrant a C+ ranking, along with the likes of Dragonite and Starmine, a C ranking I can get on board with but it does NOT deserve that much of a rise imo.

Dragonite: Not so much that I "disagree" on it lowering but I kinda feel like it warrents at least a sentence or two of explanation as to why it dropped to C+. My guess is that since Salamence dropped recently, Dragonite followed because it is basically a worst niche Salamence so Salamence's viability kinda reflects Dragonite's viability. But that's just my assumption.

Venusaur: I really feel like A- to B was too harsh, I agree with what you meationed but what I always liked about mega venu was that it wasn't as passive as Ferro or Guss, having a 122 special attack, even uninvested can really hurt shit, but I guess that isn't enough of a reason to use it over other megas. It's not the ranking I disagree with, it's that it was dropped way too hard.

 

[volx757]

Haha sweet Hydreigon finally rose, just goes to show that if you keep on about something long enough you'll eventually get your way.

But in all seriousness I'm liking these new ranks, the only ones I'm not liking is Cof, Dragonite and Mega Venu. I'll explain each one below:

Cof: Why did this thing rise two ranks but not Hydreigon? I really don't see what this thing does to warrant a C+ ranking, along with the likes of Dragonite and Starmine, a C ranking I can get on board with but it does NOT deserve that much of a rise imo.

Dragonite: Not so much that I "disagree" on it lowering but I kinda feel like it warrents at least a sentence or two of explanation as to why it dropped to C+. My guess is that since Salamence dropped recently, Dragonite followed because it is basically a worst niche Salamence so Salamence's viability kinda reflects Dragonite's viability. But that's just my assumption.

Venusaur: I really feel like A- to B was too harsh, I agree with what you meationed but what I always liked about mega venu was that it wasn't as passive as Ferro or Guss, having a 122 special attack, even uninvested can really hurt shit, but I guess that isn't enough of a reason to use it over other megas. It's not the ranking I disagree with, it's that it was dropped way too hard.

I'd assume both hydra and cofag's changes were influenced by mmedi's arrival. Cofag is the Mmedi counter, and hydra is outsped and ohkod. medi has been the biggest shifting factor recently anyway.

 

[NewfieDude]

I'd assume both hydra and cofag's changes were influenced by mmedi's arrival. Cofag is the Mmedi counter, and hydra is outsped and ohkod. medi has been the biggest shifting factor recently anyway.

Not if Hydreigon pulls out the secret tech protect

I guess, but I don't think that Cof really likes constantly switching in on zen headbutts, yah it can Will-O it but honestly I don't know what kind of person would build a team with M-Medi on it and not have some sort of way to prevent/get rid of burns.

 

[Ryolain]

Not if Hydreigon pulls out the secret tech protect

I guess, but I don't think that Cof really likes constantly switching in on zen headbutts, yah it can Will-O it but honestly I don't know what kind of person would build a team with M-Medi on it and not have some sort of way to prevent/get rid of burns.

I think you're forgetting about Mummy neutering MMedi by removing Pure Power. Once Cof tanks the first hit, it has no problem Pain Splitting to heal up and then KOing with Shadow Ball (or just going straight for the kill if it comes in on something other than ZHB).

 

[Marrrrrrrrrr]

A+ up to S

I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that Megacham deserves S Rank. It's a very meta defining force that works extremely well on offense and demolishes stall teams that don't pack Mega Sableye. Offense now frequently uses U-turn Greninja/Tapu Koko + Mega Medicham cores to straight up screw up stall. People often compare it to Mega Mawile, but I think it's a little more like Mega Metagross, both are very powerful, have just enough Speed to deal with stall Pokemon, have wide coverage, and only have one hard counter, each being another Mega Evolution (Scizor and Sableye respectively). Mega Medicham was a big threat last gen and after Gen 7 brought the Mega Evolution buff and more offensive momentum partners it's even better than before, and I don't think having it in the same rank as Greninja/Landorus-Therian/Metagross-Mega is too unreasonable, as it carries a meta defining power that those other 3 Pokemon have.

A to A+

The Tapu Koko + Mega Medicham core that I talked about earlier is an extremely powerful core, as Tapu Koko can blast past it's checks such as Tangrowth by U-turning and then having Mega Medicham take the floor. Tapu Koko has been loving the amount of Greninja and Celesteela and the only Pokemon in OU that outspeed it are Greninja-Ash and Mega Alakazam, the latter which has been declining in viability lately. Also there's the downfall of Mega Charizard X. Short nomination but I think I covered everything that I needed to here.

 

[Randompizza]

RANKING UPDATE

Rises

B- ---> B

C+ ---> B-

C ---> C+

C- ---> C+

C- ---> C
Drops

A- ---> B

B- ---> C+

B- ---> C+

B- ---> C+

B- ---> C+

C+ ---> C

C ---> C-

C ---> C-

C ---> C-

Looks like a big update, but a lot of it was just tidying up the lower niche rankings which is quite boring tbh. The upper ranks feel pretty settled atm anyway, so updates, so bigger updates will probably start to slow down. I'm not going to bother discussing all these changes because most of them are just super niche anyway and were too high in the first place, but there's a few that should probably get an explanation.

• Mega Venusaur dropping two ranks seems pretty harsh, but it was needed. Mega Venu is much like it was in ORAS, a fat Grass that faces fierce competition not only from other Megas, but also other Grass-types in the tier as well, mainly Growth, Moonguss, and Ferro. In a hazard heavy meta combined with relying on a low PP move to keep itself healthy and no passive recovery, it's extremely easy to wear down and put in range for Pokemon such as Ash Greninja, Mega Mawile, Keldeo, and Tapu Koko (especially with NM being a lot more common these days, forcing it to recovery often). Also all Protean Grens run either Spikes or Extrasensory these days, which both really hinder it for obvious reasons, so that's another reason not to use it. Honestly, outside of more offensive presence and raw bulk, Amoonguss can accomplish very similar things without taking up a mega slot or and can consistently check what it wants because of Regen. It's just not a good Pokemon at all atm, and needed to drop hard.
• Mew and Reuniclus have risen because bulky Psychic-types in general are better with Mega Medicham in the tier, which are great for bulky offensive teams and balance considering they can't afford to run Mega Sab. Mew has good utility in general that can soft check lots of stuff, even Meta and Mawile. Reuniclus sets up on quite a bit of defensive Pokemon because of its massive bulk and Magic Guard, so it can be a huge headache for teams lacking a Dark-type (Gren is very easily worn down and can't consistently check it because of its lesser bulk, also Protean doesn't run Pulse as much).
• Azumarill and Cofag have been under the radar threats recently. Belly Drum Azumarill is actually really annoying for even bulkier teams because stuff like Ferro and Pex drop to +6 Knock, and with prior damage on stuff like Metagross, it can sweep offense decently well too that resists most of the common priority. Cofag is much the same, but better vs more offensive teams and can soft check Medi thanks to Mummy which is pretty niche

If you have any questions regarding the other noms, feel free to PM me or any members of the council on here or Discord.

Ah finally mew rose, glad council recognized it's usefulness. Kinda surprised starmie didn't get a raise but I guess I'm fine with it in c+. Also why did zong drop? Iirc it was a soft check to lando, mmeta, and mmaw. Not that I have any issues with it dropping, but just curious.

 

[Chief of Elementals]

A+ up to S

I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that Megacham deserves S Rank. It's a very meta defining force that works extremely well on offense and demolishes stall teams that don't pack Mega Sableye. Offense now frequently uses U-turn Greninja/Tapu Koko + Mega Medicham cores to straight up screw up stall. People often compare it to Mega Mawile, but I think it's a little more like Mega Metagross, both are very powerful, have just enough Speed to deal with stall Pokemon, have wide coverage, and only have one hard counter, each being another Mega Evolution (Scizor and Sableye respectively). Mega Medicham was a big threat last gen and after Gen 7 brought the Mega Evolution buff and more offensive momentum partners it's even better than before, and I don't think having it in the same rank as Greninja/Landorus-Therian/Metagross-Mega is too unreasonable, as it carries a meta defining power that those other 3 Pokemon have.

A to A+

The Tapu Koko + Mega Medicham core that I talked about earlier is an extremely powerful core, as Tapu Koko can blast past it's checks such as Tangrowth by U-turning and then having Mega Medicham take the floor. Tapu Koko has been loving the amount of Greninja and Celesteela and the only Pokemon in OU that outspeed it are Greninja-Ash and Mega Alakazam, the latter which has been declining in viability lately. Also there's the downfall of Mega Charizard X. Short nomination but I think I covered everything that I needed to here.

I agree with u on the Koko Boost, but Megacham should not be with Gren and Landorus-T because of its low bulk
and its ability to be OHKOed because of 60/85/85 defenses. I also think that Megacham has a problem with hitting because of its 100 base atk, which translates to 299 atk with a jolly nature. Medicham just doesn't have the stuff for S, and I think it should go down to A or even A-.

 

[Leo]

A+ up to S

I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that Megacham deserves S Rank. It's a very meta defining force that works extremely well on offense and demolishes stall teams that don't pack Mega Sableye. Offense now frequently uses U-turn Greninja/Tapu Koko + Mega Medicham cores to straight up screw up stall. People often compare it to Mega Mawile, but I think it's a little more like Mega Metagross, both are very powerful, have just enough Speed to deal with stall Pokemon, have wide coverage, and only have one hard counter, each being another Mega Evolution (Scizor and Sableye respectively). Mega Medicham was a big threat last gen and after Gen 7 brought the Mega Evolution buff and more offensive momentum partners it's even better than before, and I don't think having it in the same rank as Greninja/Landorus-Therian/Metagross-Mega is too unreasonable, as it carries a meta defining power that those other 3 Pokemon have.

A to A+

The Tapu Koko + Mega Medicham core that I talked about earlier is an extremely powerful core, as Tapu Koko can blast past it's checks such as Tangrowth by U-turning and then having Mega Medicham take the floor. Tapu Koko has been loving the amount of Greninja and Celesteela and the only Pokemon in OU that outspeed it are Greninja-Ash and Mega Alakazam, the latter which has been declining in viability lately. Also there's the downfall of Mega Charizard X. Short nomination but I think I covered everything that I needed to here.

I think you're overselling Medicham tbh. While I do agree on it being a meta defining force, it doesn't come close to Mega Metagross' level right now. Mega Metagross has a more valuable Speed Tier, better typing and far more better bulk, making it really splashable and needing little to no support to tear teams apart, unlike Medi that needs VoltTurn support and is easier to revenge kill. It doesn't really screw up Stall as you said because it needs Tapu Koko to have a chance at threatening Stall and is still heavily weakened by Dugtrio if it switches into a T-Punch and while it's definitely a threat I don't agree on it being on par with Landorus-T Greninja or Metagross

 

[SamHPL]

I agree with u on the Koko Boost, but Megacham should not be with Gren and Landorus-T because of its low bulk
and its ability to be OHKOed because of 60/85/85 defenses. I also think that Megacham has a problem with hitting because of its 100 base atk, which translates to 299 atk with a jolly nature. Medicham just doesn't have the stuff for S, and I think it should go down to A or even A-.

I think you're forgetting about Medicham-Mega's ability, Pure Power (which gives it x2 Atk). Also, Greninja's bulk is even worst than Medicham's, so without mentioning speed tiers (Gren is faster than Medi, so it's less reliant on surviving hits) this argument doesn't make sense. Anyway, I don't think Medicham-M is S rank worthy, because of its mediocre speed and bulk.

 

[Night Train Lane]

Gary
Could you explain the Cofag raise a little more. The first things that comes to mind is no ghost resist in OU and a Medicham check. After that I'm assuming the rise is for some Nasty Plot set; however, I haven't used it or seen the actual set in action in gen7, or mentioned at all and was wondering what niche it has, set details etc etc. I also have faint knowledge of some sort of Tspike set; but again, haven't seen or used it to have any sort of opinion on it.

 

[Colonel M]

Gary
Could you explain the Cofag raise a little more. The first things that comes to mind is no ghost resist in OU and a Medicham check. After that I'm assuming the rise is for some Nasty Plot set; however, I haven't used it or seen the actual set in action in gen7, or mentioned at all and was wondering what niche it has, set details etc etc. I also have faint knowledge of some sort of Tspike set; but again, haven't seen or used it to have any sort of opinion on it.

I can provide a little insight.

It is Offensive Trick Room that Cofagrigus uses. Trick Room and lack of really good Ghost resists help it a lot to run mono-Attack with Will-O-Wisp. Mummy is huge too since it takes Mega Mawile and Mega Medicham and makes them overall less effective against Cofagrigus's team provided they stay in after activating Mummy. Which you really shouldn't.

I wouldn't call it the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it is a pretty legit sleeper threat that can warp through teams in lategame without a lot of hassle.

 

[Cosinity]

This isn't a formal nom (I'm far too inexperienced for that), but what are everybody's thoughts on Shuckle?

To me, it seems like a better Web setter than Smeargle in pretty much every way. The only advantages I can think of that Smeargle has are a more expansive movepool and a faster speed tier. But 75 speed might as well be 5 in this meta so you'll hardly get to use that movepool, and its bulk means that if you can't get webs down within the first couple turn then you're not getting them down at all. Even if hazard removal isn't very good right now, a lot of the people I've played against don't seem to have gotten the memo. Shuckle, on the other hand, has much more staying power. You can plant webs, swap to something else to to kill a defogger, and then bring Shuckle back in and have some confidence that you'll be able to plant webs again. It's also guaranteed to get webs down turn 1, with a combination of Sturdy (not that much can OHKO it anyway) and Mental Herb. Smeargle has to either risk being disabled turn 1 or run Magic Coat, which is prediction reliant and is another turn that you're not setting webs (although it does have the added advantage of bouncing Taunt back at Fini to prevent it from defogging).

I've been using Shuckle on my Sticky Web team to great effect recently, but I'm still relatively low on the ladder so I wanted to get some other people's opinions.

 

[Ryolain]

This isn't a formal nom (I'm far too inexperienced for that), but what are everybody's thoughts on Shuckle?

To me, it seems like a better Web setter than Smeargle in pretty much every way. The only advantages I can think of that Smeargle has are a more expansive movepool and a faster speed tier. But 75 speed might as well be 5 in this meta so you'll hardly get to use that movepool, and its bulk means that if you can't get webs down within the first couple turn then you're not getting them down at all. Even if hazard removal isn't very good right now, a lot of the people I've played against don't seem to have gotten the memo. Shuckle, on the other hand, has much more staying power. You can plant webs, swap to something else to to kill a defogger, and then bring Shuckle back in and have some confidence that you'll be able to plant webs again. It's also guaranteed to get webs down turn 1, with a combination of Sturdy (not that much can OHKO it anyway) and Mental Herb. Smeargle has to either risk being disabled turn 1 or run Magic Coat, which is prediction reliant and is another turn that you're not setting webs (although it does have the added advantage of bouncing Taunt back at Fini to prevent it from defogging).

I've been using Shuckle on my Sticky Web team to great effect recently, but I'm still relatively low on the ladder so I wanted to get some other people's opinions.

Agreed, I've been using ben gay's Shuckle Webs team and found it really successful as a setter. Between its immense bulk, Mental Herb and Encore, it's pretty much impossible to stop it from setting Webs, and I can generally get Rocks up too unless they're carrying one of the few things that can 2HKO it like Gren (although sometimes you can luck out if the first Hydro misses). His set runs Contrary over Sturdy (which is pretty unnecessary anyway) to beat Defoggers by Encoring Defog, stacking Evasion boosts and then killing them with Infestation, which works pretty well esp vs passive Defoggers like Fini who struggle to apply offensive pressure even if they can manage to hit it. As Cosinity says, its huge bulk also gives it a better shot at coming back later in the match, not only to re-set hazards if needed but in a pinch it can provide some momentum with Encore or help wear down bulky 'mons lacking recovery with Infestation, putting them in range for your wincon to clean up.

While Smeargle has more defensive utility at the outset of the match with Spore and Magic Coat, it rapidly loses its effectiveness once its Sash is broken; Shuckle may not have as strong counterplay vs opposing leads, but I think it's more useful across the course of the match. If Smeargle can be all the way up in B- solely for its role as a hazard setter, I think Shuckle can at least be somewhere in the Cs.

 

[Chief of Elementals]

I think you're overselling Medicham tbh. While I do agree on it being a meta defining force, it doesn't come close to Mega Metagross' level right now. Mega Metagross has a more valuable Speed Tier, better typing and far more better bulk, making it really splashable and needing little to no support to tear teams apart, unlike Medi that needs VoltTurn support and is easier to revenge kill. It doesn't really screw up Stall as you said because it needs Tapu Koko to have a chance at threatening Stall and is still heavily weakened by Dugtrio if it switches into a T-Punch and while it's definitely a threat I don't agree on it being on par with Landorus-T Greninja or Metagross

I agree with u. Megacham can even be OHKOed by a meteor mash from Mega Metagross.
252+ Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham-Mega: 259-306 (99.2 - 117.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO.

Agreed, I've been using ben gay's Shuckle Webs team and found it really successful as a setter. Between its immense bulk, Mental Herb and Encore, it's pretty much impossible to stop it from setting Webs, and I can generally get Rocks up too unless they're carrying one of the few things that can 2HKO it like Gren (although sometimes you can luck out if the first Hydro misses). His set runs Contrary over Sturdy (which is pretty unnecessary anyway) to beat Defoggers by Encoring Defog, stacking Evasion boosts and then killing them with Infestation, which works pretty well esp vs passive Defoggers like Fini who struggle to apply offensive pressure even if they can manage to hit it. As Cosinity says, its huge bulk also gives it a better shot at coming back later in the match, not only to re-set hazards if needed but in a pinch it can provide some momentum with Encore or help wear down bulky 'mons lacking recovery with Infestation, putting them in range for your wincon to clean up.

While Smeargle has more defensive utility at the outset of the match with Spore and Magic Coat, it rapidly loses its effectiveness once its Sash is broken; Shuckle may not have as strong counterplay vs opposing leads, but I think it's more useful across the course of the match. If Smeargle can be all the way up in B- solely for its role as a hazard setter, I think Shuckle can at least be somewhere in the Cs.

I think that shuckle is good, until you destroy it's sash. Super-Effective hits will only let Shuckle set web, but before it gets low on health, shuckle can hit hard. I nominate Shuckle for B-, because of the ability to set webs and rocks, infest and with not that many rapid spinners other than Excadrill (Which is taken out by the sheer amount of Landorus-Ts), the hazards will stay for the entire battle, most likely. So shuckle is ok as a mon, before it gets low on health with its lack of active (and passive) recovery if not equipped with leftovers. and that's why I nomm it for B-. (I am not the most experienced, but from fighting battles in not only OU but in Ubers where shuckle and smeragle are the bane of the tier, shuckle is just ok. and deserves a boot to B- with its doggy cousin, smeargle.)
Edit: Shuckle doesn't need a sash, sorry.

 

[Mob Barley]

I'd like to nominate Hydreigon for C+/ B- at least. As a wall breaker it's outclassed, but the scarf set is really underrated right now. In practice with a unique combination of stats, typing and excellent coverage, making a splash in offense match ups is never out of reach. While Latios at times may seem to fill this role a bit better, outside the higher speed stat (and maybe access to trick) Hydreigon has more to work with. What really does it over lati is it's access to u-turn which is incredible for a lot of match ups like vs greninja. They stay in and lose half their hp or give you momentum (win-win). 0- Atk Hydreigon U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 132-156 (46.3 - 54.7%)

Speaking of the S tier it dismantles all 3 of them with a bit of prior damage (bar ninja that just dies). Anything that's running down relevant powerhouses reliably is a plus in my books. You can literally run stabs/fire/u turn and sit back since its all you need. You should be dismantling everything with exception of specific fairies like Tapu Fini. You'd be surprised how much fire blast accomplishes, breaking down a ton of fairies like bulu, mawile, koko and magearna (unlike scarf lati). People are still anxious to run to a fairy at the sight of Hydra, or something with extreme bulk that scarf wont break down, and thats when we play accordingly with u-turn :o. It's funny people hate on Hydreigon but they're always fast af to switch out vs it in a game, ironic.

I mentioned earlier it has unique stats/typing. You will find your fair share of opportunities to pivot in with dark/dragon 92/90/90. It's also nice to outpace 95's and others at +1 like +1 zygarde, scarf tapu lele,+1 porygon, scarf lando (you're a freak btw if you run scarf lando in 2017). Moral of the story, be patient and mash u-turn :V

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

It just rised after many people requesting it time again and again, C+ is likly fine but the problem is scarf loses bad to bulky teams and generally ends up costing turns when they heal off the damage, and it's specs sets are outclassed generally and out sped.

I'll admit it's brutal to deal with the wrong set it just it's nearly as crazy as something like nidoking where everything slower it running away screaming

 

[SJCrew]

(you're a freak btw if you run scarf lando in 2017).

There's a bit of a trick to it. Running Scarf Lando cushions the matchup vs Mega Meta and Cham at the cost of Volc, but Volc can be pressured well enough into not setting up when you have dual priority in the back and aggressive hazard control (Taunt on your rocker, properly predicting Fini switch-ins, laughing at the other guy's defensive Starmie).

I've seen some double up on Scarfers instead, but I think that causes way too many matchup problems to ever be worth it.

Pity about Hydreigon missing Volc-tier with that juicy Head Smash, though.

 

[Dussky]

I agree with u on the Koko Boost, but Megacham should not be with Gren and Landorus-T because of its low bulk
and its ability to be OHKOed because of 60/85/85 defenses. I also think that Megacham has a problem with hitting because of its 100 base atk, which translates to 299 atk with a jolly nature. Medicham just doesn't have the stuff for S, and I think it should go down to A or even A-.

I agree as well with a Koko rise, but the topic is mainly Medi imo. While I am on the fence for Medi for S, Medicham has the ability to put an unbelievable amount of pressure on the opponents team, especially paired with VoltTurn, Medi can come in on slower threats and pretty much ensure a kill. While Medi does have a tough time competing with the likes of Megagross, Medi has that raw power that can fuck teams without MSab or Mew. Also, Medicham runs Adamant for the most damage possible. Adamant allows Fake to deal a lot of damage to faster threats and common leads such as Koko and Gren. I agree on the fact Medi isn't S material YET but it's definitely not A or A- worthy, it's way too damn pressuring and strong for A and A-. My take on this tho is wait for potential Megagross ban and see how Medi does.