Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[UltraBallz]

For my first post I'd like to recommend dropping Slowbro from B rank.

In ORAS Slowbro was a very good check to Metagross but every gross now runs T punch for Pex Steela and Skarm making it much less reliable. On top of that if you want the bulky regen water resist there are so many better options (see Toxapex). In addition pex is a good check to more of the top threats in the meta like mosa and gren. Pretty much the only reason to uses slowbro over toxapex is for the psychic resist but even then the mon with the best psychic stab in the tier Tapu Lele almost always 2HKO's Slowbro with Moonblast and always after rocks.

252+ SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 199-235 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

RECOMMENDATION: Slowbro B -> B-

Edit: Also, the rise of Gengar is also a big problem for Bro

 

[Marrrrrrrrrr]

B+ to B/B-

Nothing is going for it this gen. It's slow, not very bulky, it can't afford to run coverage moves (and the few that it has are crap anyway), and it's overreliant on the now nerfed Sucker Punch. Latios isn't that good anymore, which decreases its usefulness. Though the biggest and most recent thing has got to be Mega Mawile, which not only beats it (as if Keldeo, Magearna, Pheromosa, Charizard X, and even Toxapex weren't enough) but it outclasses it as well, as what it does is similar to what Bisharp does plus it hits much harder and has better coverage. It's definitely not as good or consistent as Chansey or Rotom-Wash, and IMO it should drop.

 

[Vert]

bisharp never needed coverage since steel / dark is extremely good. the sucker punch nerf is not a big deal because it still hits wild hard at +2, ohkoing what you need ohko'd after stealth rock such as garchomp. i wasn't aware bisharp was a switch in to latios when it can't switch into draco meteor safely, while dying to hidden power [fire] and gigavolt havoc. mawile does not beat bisharp, since it gets mauled by +2 iron head, even without a life orb. pheromosa and charizard x die to +2 life orb sucker punch. apparently, there has been some "new wave" shit that i'm not aware of in black hole eclipse (z-sucker punch) bisharp which lets you ohko conventional checks such as toxapex and scizor after stealth rock. obviously, you lose some crucial ko's against offense, but i've seen the set do some work against bulkier teams. the metagame is only shifting towards bisharp if anything with decreased tapu lele usage.

 

[JTD783]

It's also worth noting that some of Bisharp's old checks, such as tankchomp and Hippowdon, are rarely seen in SM OU. The meta is steel-heavy but all of them, at least off the top of my head, are hit for neutral damage and hate eating a +2 hit. Bisharp's main issue is that it's not bulky enough to eat strong neutral hits and it's speed is subpar against offense, so it needs a lot of support to work well.

Spikes is solid right now and that's something Bish can take advantage of. To avoid speculation, I can speak from experience when saying that it's not too challenging to bring faster dark resists, such as Keldeo and Koko, into +2 LO Sucker Punch range.

 

[Gary]

RANKING UPDATE

Rises

---> Added to A+

A- ---> A

B+ ---> A-

B- ---> B

C ---> B-

---> Added to C+

Drops

S ---> A+

A- ---> B+

B+ ---> B

C+ ---> C

C+ ---> C

C+ ---> C-

C+ ---> Unranked

C ---> Unranked

C- ---> Unranked

C- ---> Unranked

• Mega Mawile starts off in A+ because it's easily the best breaker in the tier with the ability to pressure offensive Pokemon such as Metagross, Gengar, and weakened Pheromosa thanks to its powerful Sucker Punch. It has coverage for practically every commonly used defensive core in the tier, and with SD it can pose as more of a threat to offensive teams late-game while still muscling through bulkier builds. While not the bulkiest Pokemon, its defensive typing is fantastic, and lets safely mega or SD on many defensive Pokemon.
• Volcarona hasn't really gotten much better, but its been deserving of a rise for quite some time now. Recently a very threatening set with Psychium Z has started popping up to break through Pex, one of its most well known checks, which just further shows how Volcarona can easily adapt to the metagame and there aren't many Pokemon that can wall all its potential coverage moves, which forces you to rely more on your Scarfer.
• Clefable is standard on stall, but it's also one of the best special Pheromosa checks in the tier, as well as Scarf considering that Poison Jab merely tickles it. It's also a fantastic rocker that can almost always get up SR vs stall and on top of Mosa it checks plenty of other mons such as Keldeo, Zygarde, Chomper, and Ash Gren to an extent.
• Mimikyu and Smeargle have picked up usage in SPL quite a bit recently, while the former has always been solid on HO teams as a Mosa check, the latter has shown how effective Sticky Web can be in the current metagame, and its ranking should correlate with the viability of Sticky Web teams themselves seeing how it is the best user of the move.
• Okkkk so Greninja dropping is probably going to piss off a lot of people but let me try to explain this as best as I possibly can because I was also on the fence with it myself. Basically, we felt that while Greninja is a very threatening Pokemon in the current metagame, it feels out of place with the other titans that reside in S rank that are basically centralizing the tier by themselves. Greninja is a lot easier to pressure offensively this generation with the introduction of Pheromosa and Tapu Koko, as well as Choice Scarf users being on basically every team that all can pressure Greninja heavily, especially Keldeo which has risen a lot in viability recently, hell even Ash Gren can OHKO Greninja with just a bit of prior damage. Defensively is where it gets a bit dodgy, but depending on Greninja's moveset, any well built balance or BO team should have answers to it defensively, and can rack up damage on it significantly between LO recoil and hazards. Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Mega Venu, Toxapex, AV Magearna, AV Magnezone, can all pivot around into it, and depending on the opponent's team structure you honestly should be able to tell what coverage Gren is running considering that Gunk + HP Fire is practically standard at this point on it, and if it's not Spikes Gren then it should definitely have either Hydro or Dark Pulse for Heatran/Wak as well as a stronger move for Metagross, so the last moveslot is usually the only slot you realistically have to scout for, and if someone is extra weak to Pex/Venu for example, it's probably running Sensory and you should probably make sure not to blindly switch into them turn 1. It's definitely a difficult Pokemon to deal with in general because of its unpredictability, but compared to the other Pokemon in S rank, we just don't feel like it makes the cut.

If anyone has a question on why any other Pokemon rose/drop feel free to drop me or anyone else on VR council a PM, but most of the other stuff has been discussed or should be self-explanatory.

 

[TURBODERP]

It's been said a few times by people (including me and at least one page on this thread), but Slowbro really needs to drop to B-. The rise of Volcarona, Pheromosa, Tapu Koko, Gengar, and Mega Mawile really is not good for Slowbro, and many of the old things it used to wall (Metagross, Terrakion, Garchomp) either now run coverage for it (Thunderpunch) or can blast through it with Z-moves. Slowbro and Slowking should be in the same subrank IMO, since Slowking's special bulk is actually really relevant.

 

[BARABOY]

I'm going to suggest Amoonguss being ranked down. While Amoonguss isn't exactly less effective than it has been in the past, it's easily outdone by other Pokémon that fill similar roles, in particular Toxapex and Tangrowth. They all share the same ability, being regenerator, and have similar defensive typings. While Amoonguss seemingly gets the most out of regenerator, having the highest base HP out of the three, it's easily outdone by them thanks to its mediocre defensive stats. It's defensive stats are more than doubled by Toxapex, which has a great defensive movepool. On the topic of movepools, Amoonguss has a pitifully tiny amount of moves. It lacks any supportive moves like recover, which toxapex has, and leech seed, which Tangrowth has, meaning it can't reliably heal itself without switching or sludge. Additionally, it's lack of toxic spikes makes it awful in the utility department as well. The only niche Amoonguss has over them is Spore, except Breloom outperforms it with that niche, and Tangrowth has Sleep Powder, which is almost as good.

tl;dr There's no reason to use Amoonguss over Toxapex or Tangrowth because of it's mediocre stats and completely garbage movepool, which lacks the utility and support which the other two have.

Amoonguss A- ---> B

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

I'm going to suggest Amoonguss being ranked down. While Amoonguss isn't exactly less effective than it has been in the past, it's easily outdone by other Pokémon that fill similar roles, in particular Toxapex and Tangrowth. They all share the same ability, being regenerator, and have similar defensive typings. While Amoonguss seemingly gets the most out of regenerator, having the highest base HP out of the three, it's easily outdone by them thanks to its mediocre defensive stats. It's defensive stats are more than doubled by Toxapex, which has a great defensive movepool. On the topic of movepools, Amoonguss has a pitifully tiny amount of moves. It lacks any supportive moves like recover, which toxapex has, and leech seed, which Tangrowth has, meaning it can't reliably heal itself without switching or sludge. Additionally, it's lack of toxic spikes makes it awful in the utility department as well. The only niche Amoonguss has over them is Spore, except Breloom outperforms it with that niche, and Tangrowth has Sleep Powder, which is almost as good.

tl;dr There's no reason to use Amoonguss over Toxapex or Tangrowth because of it's mediocre stats and completely garbage movepool, which lacks the utility and support which the other two have.

Amoonguss A- ---> B

Except Spore is incredible, and claiming that Breloom, of all Pokemon, uses the move better kind of highlights your bias lol. Sleep Powder is not comparable because running it means Tangrowth cannot run AV (and it has 50 base SpD), and it has about the same accuracy as Focus Miss, to give you an idea of its reliability. Also, Clear Smog is fine for utility, and complaining about Amoonguss's movepool is dubious when Toxapex has like 5 viable options. So I don't know why you think your use of hyperbole every other line is fooling us about Amoonguss's actual capabilities. Unlike Tangrowth, its non-AV sets don't fold like paper to Special hits, and unlike Toxapex, it has a respectable amount of offensive presence between its STABs and Hidden Power Fire / Foul Play. It's easily the worst of the three Regenerator users, but you haven't exactly made a compelling argument for why it should drop ONE subrank, let alone two.

Also, could you show me a replay of this mythical Leech Seed Tangrowth?

 

[BARABOY]

Except Spore is incredible, and claiming that Breloom, of all Pokemon, uses the move better kind of highlights your bias lol. Sleep Powder is not comparable because running it means Tangrowth cannot run AV (and it has 50 base SpD), and it has about the same accuracy as Focus Miss, to give you an idea of its reliability. Also, Clear Smog is fine for utility, and complaining about Amoonguss's movepool is dubious when Toxapex has like 5 viable options. So I don't know why you think your use of hyperbole every other line is fooling us about Amoonguss's actual capabilities. Unlike Tangrowth, its non-AV sets don't fold like paper to Special hits, and unlike Toxapex, it has a respectable amount of offensive presence between its STABs and Hidden Power Fire / Foul Play. It's easily the worst of the three Regenerator users, but you haven't exactly made a compelling argument for why it should drop ONE subrank, let alone two.

Also, could you show me a replay of this mythical Leech Seed Tangrowth?

I'm sorry, but you're not making much sense. I said breloom spore is better because it's used much more often in the meta, and breloom can be pretty versatile. AV Tangrowth is not the only viable set for it, since it has access to leech seed, synthesis, sleep powder (which hits 3/4 of the time), and swords dance, among other things. Clear smog is inferior to haze, which toxapex can use, since haze an is ice type move, which therefore lets it hit steel types like mega scizor, which is known to spam swords dance. On the topic of toxapex, it has WAAAY more utility moves than Amoonguss, the viable ones being haze, t-spikes, baneful bunker, recover, and scald. Amoonguss has synthesis (this one is questionable with the rising popularity of rain teams), spore, clear smog, and that's it. You did make a point with its offensive abilities, and I would now be okay with it dropping to B+, but that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't perform well defensively. Here are some calcs:

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 248 HP / 216+ SpD Amoonguss in Psychic Terrain: 380-450 (88.1 - 104.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 216+ SpD Amoonguss: 318-374 (73.7 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 44 Def Amoonguss: 464-548 (107.6 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bug Bite vs. 248 HP / 44 Def Amoonguss: 228-268 (52.9 - 62.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

You make some good points in the latter half, but I don't understand what you mean by "mythical leech seed Tangrowth". Are you implying it can't learn leech seed, or that the set isn't viable?

The use of hyperboles was to help prove a point. That's what a hyperbole is, i.e.; an exaggeration to prove a point.

 

[Leo]

I'm sorry, but you're not making much sense. I said breloom spore is better because it's used much more often in the meta, and breloom can be pretty versatile. AV Tangrowth is not the only viable set for it, since it has access to leech seed, synthesis, sleep powder (which hits 3/4 of the time), and swords dance, among other things. Clear smog is inferior to haze, which toxapex can use, since haze an is ice type move, which therefore lets it hit steel types like mega scizor, which is known to spam swords dance. On the topic of toxapex, it has WAAAY more utility moves than Amoonguss, the viable ones being haze, t-spikes, baneful bunker, recover, and scald. Amoonguss has synthesis (this one is questionable with the rising popularity of rain teams), spore, clear smog, and that's it. You did make a point with its offensive abilities, and I would now be okay with it dropping to B+, but that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't perform well defensively. Here are some calcs:
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 248 HP / 216+ SpD Amoonguss in Psychic Terrain: 380-450 (88.1 - 104.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 216+ SpD Amoonguss: 318-374 (73.7 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 44 Def Amoonguss: 464-548 (107.6 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bug Bite vs. 248 HP / 44 Def Amoonguss: 228-268 (52.9 - 62.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

You make some good points in the latter half, but I don't understand what you mean by "mythical leech seed Tangrowth". Are you implying it can't learn leech seed, or that the set isn't viable?

The use of hyperboles was to help prove a point. That's what a hyperbole is, i.e.; an exaggeration to prove a point.

What is even the point of your calcs? Yes, Amoongus drops to a Super Effective STAB Terrain-boosted Psychic, thanks for the information. Oh yeah, it also takes a ton to a Super Effective STAB Fire Blast. You don't use Amoongus to take on these mons and these calcs don't prove anything at all. You keep praising Toxapex's support movepool with tpikes but ignore te fact that Spore if one of Amoongus' biggest niches. The presence of Tapu Fini and Koko make it harder to just click Spore but none of them can directly switch into you. Amoongus does have its flaws but you aren't presenting any valid argument for it to drop

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

I'm sorry, but you're not making much sense. I said breloom spore is better because it's used much more often in the meta

lol okay

AV Tangrowth is not the only viable set for it, since it has access to leech seed, synthesis, sleep powder (which hits 3/4 of the time), and swords dance, among other things.

I sincerely hope this is a typo.

Your calcs are also irrelevant because Amoonguss is not supposed to be your pivot into those attacks. Under what circumstances would you stay in on those Pokemon in the first place? You might as well calc Toxapex vs. Landorus-T's Earthquake or Tangrowth vs. Protean Greninja's Gunk Shot. I promise you won't be disappointed.

I don't understand what you mean by "mythical leech seed Tangrowth". Are you implying it can't learn leech seed, or that the set isn't viable?

Was I implying it? I thought I was fairly blatant.

Lastly, it is true that hyperbole helps prove a point. However, your hyperbole is also an egregious misrepresentation of Amoonguss's strengths, much like the rest of your post. If you were emphasizing sound points with your exaggeration, I wouldn't have a problem. Unfortunately, such is not the case.

 

[BARABOY]

What is even the point of your calcs? Yes, Amoongus drops to a Super Effective STAB Terrain-boosted Psychic, thanks for the information. Oh yeah, it also takes a ton to a Super Effective STAB Fire Blast. You don't use Amoongus to take on these mons and these calcs don't prove anything at all. You keep praising Toxapex's support movepool with tpikes but ignore te fact that Spore if one of Amoongus' biggest niches. The presence of Tapu Fini and Koko make it harder to just click Spore but none of them can directly switch into you. Amoongus does have its flaws but you aren't presenting any valid argument for it to drop

Okay, in hindsight my calcs are pointless and dumb.

lol okay


I sincerely hope this is a typo.

Your calcs are also irrelevant because Amoonguss is not supposed to be your pivot into those attacks. Under what circumstances would you stay in on those Pokemon in the first place? You might as well calc Toxapex vs. Landorus-T's Earthquake or Tangrowth vs. Protean Greninja's Gunk Shot. I promise you won't be disappointed.


Was I implying it? I thought I was fairly blatant.

Lastly, it is true that hyperbole helps prove a point. However, your hyperbole is also an egregious misrepresentation of Amoonguss's strengths, much like the rest of your post. If you were emphasizing sound points with your exaggeration, I wouldn't have a problem. Unfortunately, such is not the case.

*please see above*

Also, sorry about not understanding your sarcasm with the mythical Tangrowth thing. Muh autism. I still don't understand what you mean by the way.

But yeah, you both made good arguments, and I guess I'm content with where it is now :)

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

Okay, in hindsight my calcs are pointless and dumb.


*please see above*

Also, sorry about not understanding your sarcasm with the mythical Tangrowth thing. Muh autism. I still don't understand what you mean by the way.

But yeah, you both made good arguments, and I guess I'm content with where it is now :)

Thanks for being reasonable.
The reason Tangrowth doesn't usually run Leech Seed is, well, it has more important moves to run. The standard non-AV set is Giga Drain + Knock Off + Sleep Powder + Hidden Power Fire/Ice. Realistically, which move would you drop for Leech Seed? Giga Drain is the best STAB option you have, and it provides healing to compensate for the lack of recovery. Knock Off is crucial for utility because it punishes most switch-ins who would exploit Tangrowth freely, and most of last gen's good Knock Off users are falling out of favor (or simply forgoing the move, in the case of Landorus-T). Sleep Powder, though inferior to Spore, is still important as a threat; just like how you wouldn't switch a Ferrothorn into Pheromosa predicting a Focus Blast miss, you wouldn't want to risk having a key team member fall asleep. Hidden Power is the best option in the last slot because it gives Tangrowth the ability to actually beat what it's supposed to check, with Ice being more common thanks to Zygarde and Landorus-T. Leech Seed doesn't really contribute to Tangrowth's role, which is pivoting, attacking, and switching back out; the other moves are more useful in general.

 

[bludz]

Leech Seed Tang is fine on Phys Def sets, especially for dealing with Mega Metagross. Also Amoonguss has synthesis btw so it does have recovery options, it just tends to need other moves more and can rely solely on Regen. Toxapex just had all it needs basically the only choice being between TSpikes and Toxic. I do think Pex and Growth are better than Amoong which tends to fit on teams that need attributes of both of the former, but still has unique qualities that make it pretty good and not that niche.

 

[Tentacruelladeville]

Hey so been laddering a bit & one pokemon that seems really underrated is Alomomola which seems really good and useful compared to a lot of things in C. Would be interested to know if other people have had success with it but I think it's more than just a situational niche kind of deal. It's probably seen as outclassed by Toxapex as an uber bulky water type, and lack of instant recovery can hurt, but IMO it has enough to distinguish itself and be seen as a strong alternative.

Wish is a really cool move if you're forming a defensive core using Ferrothorn and Alomomola, as you can then use Alomomola either to switch out and heal a team mate (which has saved me a dozen times) or use protect and heal yourself. With investment in special defense, it's more or less as bulky as Slowbro and Toxapex, if not more, which are the two other regenerator water types and it isn't as easily taken out by ground types like Zygarde and Landorus, or other powerful sweepers with EQ coverage etc which murder Toxapex, or Tapu Lele or Extrasensory Greninja which... ditto.

It also has knock off. For pokemon with z-moves, choice items or something else that's important to their gameplay, knock off can be a really annoying move to face.

I think that Toxapex is still really good for instant recovery and the ability to stop stuff like Volcarona, but Alomomola is IMO at least as good an alterantive as Slowbro which is currently B.

 

[JTD783]

Hey so been laddering a bit & one pokemon that seems really underrated is Alomomola which seems really good and useful compared to a lot of things in C. Would be interested to know if other people have had success with it but I think it's more than just a situational niche kind of deal. It's probably seen as outclassed by Toxapex as an uber bulky water type, and lack of instant recovery can hurt, but IMO it has enough to distinguish itself and be seen as a strong alternative.

Wish is a really cool move if you're forming a defensive core using Ferrothorn and Alomomola, as you can then use Alomomola either to switch out and heal a team mate (which has saved me a dozen times) or use protect and heal yourself. With investment in special defense, it's more or less as bulky as Slowbro and Toxapex, if not more, which are the two other regenerator water types and it isn't as easily taken out by ground types like Zygarde and Landorus, or other powerful sweepers with EQ coverage etc which murder Toxapex, or Tapu Lele or Extrasensory Greninja which... ditto.

It also has knock off. For pokemon with z-moves, choice items or something else that's important to their gameplay, knock off can be a really annoying move to face.

I think that Toxapex is still really good for instant recovery and the ability to stop stuff like Volcarona, but Alomomola is IMO at least as good an alterantive as Slowbro which is currently B.

Minor nitpick but Z crystals can't knocked off. However if you knock off as a Magearna comes in, for example, and nothing extra happens, you scout a Z move which is nice.

 

[Gary]

Okay so the Amoonguss discussion has already ran its course so there's literally no reason to bring up the same points and try to drop it again unless you have more relevant support instead of just comparing it to Pex/Growth/Mega Venu as its primary reason for dropping. Pex and Growth are both a rank above it and Venu takes up a Mega slot while being a lot less durable overall, so it's not really giving Amoonguss much competition. It's a great pivot that fits on plenty of teams as a great middle ground between Pex and Tangrowth when you need the role compression of both but can't really afford to run them at the same time. It has great utility in Spore/Stun Spore as well as Clear Smog so much like Pex it's not like much can set up on it, and most of the Steel-types that attempt to are pressured by HP Fire (Scizor). There just isn't much solid logic other than that it faces competition as a Grass and as a Poison-type, but the VR clearly presents that by putting Amoonguss below those two, and showing that it can still performs similar defensive roles as the two compressed into one mon which is very valuable for many builds.

So we can move on now right?

 

[Tentacruelladeville]

Minor nitpick but Z crystals can't knocked off. However if you knock off as a Magearna comes in, for example, and nothing extra happens, you scout a Z move which is nice.

Thanks for the correction :)

Also would like to add that knock off is really a pain in the ass for Ash Greninja. I've been experimenting & I've found Alomoloma to be one of the best Ash Greninja counters (and Greninja counters in general) there is, as so many run choice specs and relatively few run grass/Electric coverage.

Am an Alomoloma fanboy

 

[volx757]

I don't know how I feel about mega luvdisc moving into B. It's hard to fit it on any team archetype besides stall/semi-stall because it's so passive. It can threaten status with scald and toxic, but so can every other fat water wall. It can knock off items, but tbh knock off isn't as powerful as it was last gen because most teams carry both a mega and a z-move, which means most teams have multiple switchins. This meta's attackers are too strong that alomomola gets easily overwhelmed outside of stall teams/regen cores that can support it. I think clefable may even be a better wish passer cause it has more defensive utility and although it's HP is far lower, most of the things you'd pass to outside of stall don't have massive HP stats so it is sufficient.

Slowbro I don't think is the best comparison, cause it has instant recovery, regenerator, can get reasonable chip with its SpAtk, gets thunder wave for more utility, and can be run as a wincon with calm mind. It's mega, which sits in B-, can do the same, but swap regenerator for a massive defense stat and a good SpAtk.
Gastro, also in B-, has 2 immunities, a lot of the other same characteristics, and can also function as a wincon with curse.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 36 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 253-298 (52.7 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Hidden power electric, if it were to run it, is also a 2HKO. Hydro needs some chip for the 2HKO. Idk that I'd call that a counter. I'll give you 'check,' because if it switches into shuriken it can force ninja out, and if it switches into hydro from full it can wish-tect stall out the 8pp.

It's only niche over toxapex or bro is wish passing, which isn't a very effective strategy in this very offensive meta (again, outside of stall/semi-stall), I think C+ represents that viability just fine, because it has only one set that works on only specific teams. It would feel out of place to me among the likes of Dragonite, zong, loom, mega gyara, all of which offer more than one specific utility and can find their place on a variety of teams. And it's defensive utility certainly doesn't exceed that of it's fellow C+ inhabitants, Hippo, Quagsire, and AMuk.
Role compression is the name of the game with defensive and utility mons in SM, and alo doesn't compress any roles.

 

[Leo]

I don't know how I feel about mega luvdisc moving into B. It's hard to fit it on any team archetype besides stall/semi-stall because it's so passive. It can threaten status with scald and toxic, but so can every other fat water wall. It can knock off items, but tbh knock off isn't as powerful as it was last gen because most teams carry both a mega and a z-move, which means most teams have multiple switchins. This meta's attackers are too strong that alomomola gets easily overwhelmed outside of stall teams/regen cores that can support it. I think clefable may even be a better wish passer cause it has more defensive utility and although it's HP is far lower, most of the things you'd pass to outside of stall don't have massive HP stats so it is sufficient.

Slowbro I don't think is the best comparison, cause it has instant recovery, regenerator, can get reasonable chip with its SpAtk, gets thunder wave for more utility, and can be run as a wincon with calm mind. It's mega, which sits in B-, can do the same, but swap regenerator for a massive defense stat and a good SpAtk.
Gastro, also in B-, has 2 immunities, a lot of the other same characteristics, and can also function as a wincon with curse.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 36 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 253-298 (52.7 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Hidden power electric, if it were to run it, is also a 2HKO. Hydro needs some chip for the 2HKO. Idk that I'd call that a counter. I'll give you 'check,' because if it switches into shuriken it can force ninja out, and if it switches into hydro from full it can wish-tect stall out the 8pp.

It's only niche over toxapex or bro is wish passing, which isn't a very effective strategy in this very offensive meta (again, outside of stall/semi-stall), I think C+ represents that viability just fine, because it has only one set that works on only specific teams. It would feel out of place to me among the likes of Dragonite, zong, loom, mega gyara, all of which offer more than one specific utility and can find their place on a variety of teams. And it's defensive utility certainly doesn't exceed that of it's fellow C+ inhabitants, Hippo, Quagsire, and AMuk.
Role compression is the name of the game with defensive and utility mons in SM, and alo doesn't compress any roles.

Your calc implies that Greninja has already got a kill and tranformed into its Ash-Forme, which it shouldn't be able to do when there's an Alomomola eating its Dark Pulses. Here's the right calc: 252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 36 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 190-225 (39.5 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. I don't have any opinion on Alo tbh cause I have yet to use it in SM but looks like a decent pick that provides nice Wish support for mons that lack recovery such as AV Magearna and bulkier attackers like Mega Metagross that get worn down over the course of a match. It's also very annoying to KO when used alongside other Regen users (Tangrowth, Amoongus) on fatter teams and being a solid Metagross check gives it an edge over other bulky waters

 

[Government]

If there's a viability ranking for each tier, wouldn't each check/counter for the higher ranked Pokémon be on the same viability ranking?

 

[ian smart]

If there's a viability ranking for each tier, wouldn't each check/counter for the higher ranked Pokémon be on the same viability ranking?

No, because then mega scizor would be ranked the same as metagross which we both know is incorrect.

 

[Government]

No, because then mega scizor would be ranked the same as metagross which we both know is incorrect.

True. It just looked strange at first glance

 

[matthewc20090]

your logic literally makes no sense because scarf magneton isn't used over specs magnezone, its used over scarf magnezone. meanwhile scarf magmortar in nu still outspeeds tauros and archeops, whereas scarf magnezone fails to outspeed greninja, which is the main draw of using magneton in general. i do agree that magneton's niche isn't as big as it once was, but simply comparing it to specs magnezone isn't a good reason to drop it from the vr

but yeah i do agree that thing is garbage. if i wanted a trapper i'd use magnezone and if i wanted a fast electric id use koko. the only thing i can think of that it can trap that magnezone couldn't is mega metagross, and even then its not killing it unless metagross is really weakened. also fast mega sciz i guess.

 

[Gary]

Magneton to Unranked

The only argument I see for Magneton to be ranked is that scarf sets out speed greninja and stuff. If we apply this logic to other pokemon, I can say that I can use scarf magmar over Specs Magmortor in Neverused so I can out speed Tauros and Archeops. While this is true (as scarf magmortor is bad, it has to run specs or AV), Magmortor has much better bulk and special attack allowing it to do its job a lot better then magmar can. Another point I want to make is that with the introduction of Mega Mawile, Magneton's life has just gotten even more outclassed.

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 255-301 (81.4 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magneton: 300-353 (124.4 - 146.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mawile-Mega: 252-297 (82.8 - 97.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mawile-Mega: 144-171 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO

Magneton is just bad.

Yeah except you are completely missing the point of why Magneton is ranked in the first place. It's a faster, weaker Magnezone that trades the ability to hit hard and bulk in order to outspeed Pokemon above the 115+ Speed tier that Scarf Zone misses out on because it's so god damn slow. It can still trap Steels such as Ferrothorn, Scizor, Skarmory, and Celesteela to an extent, so if you are very weak to Greninja but also need some form of Speed control as well as a Steel trapper, Magneton has got that niche covered. Every Pokemon you compared to Magneton is irrelevant in this case.

It's a niche as fuck Pokemon but that doesn't mean it should be compared to completely irrelevant Scarfers when it can still accomplish its task as a fast steel trapper.