Posting my opinions on the Zygarde 10 and 50 discussion. I ignored a ton of posts about zygarde because to put it bluntly most were complete garbage and shockingly lacking in reasoning to support their arguments so it just seemed useless to try and counterargue it. With the posts im addressing, I see actual reasons behind argument (albeit I think those reasons are wrong.)
I wanted to address DoW's view on Thousand arrows vs Zygarde from a few pages ago cuz I didn't get to before.
I dont even understand what part C meant
On whether I think Zygarde is broken or not:
Thousand arrows is literally gravity and a 90 base power attack in one. Gravity only has one part of this, then it has 5 turns to attack. There is no restriction for for thousand arrows. Zygarde 10 has 115 base speed, so I dont see how this isnt similar to excadrill under 8 turns of sand back in oras that lead to the smooth rock ban.
The question we need to ask ourselves is Is this really that big a difference? I say no.
I think Zygarde 10 and 50 are busted in mono because of their exclusive move thousand arrows because the move ignores the would be counters types like electric, poison, and (tentative) flying originally had to it, but I did think we should give it more time because they're new pokemon, and im not ready to say outright that it has no place in monotype ever. It's so hard to tell this early. My thought process with quickbanning of gen7 mons is can the metagame potentially adapt to it/are we still stuck in an ORAS mindset with three weeks in. If yes, then wait. If no, then ban. If its obvious that mono cannot function while its in the meta, then I think it should be banned. If its not obvious, I think we should give the mon some time. Ground is a great offensive typing, and there are mechanics it's attacks, like air balloon and levitate, but thousand arrows ignores it, and its ground attack is given free reign.
This is part is for everyone whos sayin "lels XD zygarde is 10000000miles from being broken what u mean lolololxdxdxd":
For most suspects,I can understand both viewpoints. I cannot for this one. Someone please toss me some of your reasonings for it. You can PM me on PS orpost it in the thread here. nvm L
I wanted to address DoW's view on Thousand arrows vs Zygarde from a few pages ago cuz I didn't get to before.
I think you're wrong here. The fact that smeargle, a pokemon with a 250 BST, is broken with it obviously means that all pokemon with it are broken and the move itself is uncompetitive. Smeargle is a really good testing ground for uncompetitive moves because its has shitty stats but at the same time learns every move. Geomancy + Baton pass is obviously broken on every single pokemon if even an intrinsically bad pokemon is broken with it. It doesn't "disprove" what Acast said at all. "Au Contraire" cmon fam. This follows the smogon's precedent still, its a clear example of it. The banning of chatter in PU over the entire ban of Chatot would be an okay dispute, but that also has its flaws. Smeargle doesn't actually learn chatter, so its harder to tell if the move was broken or Chatot is broken, so I can see where the argument went with that.Au contraire, I believe at one point UU banned Geomancy (its only user was smeargle).
Edit: to stop this post being a one-liner, I see absolutely no reason why a move shouldn't be banned, especially when two mons are broken with it and neither mon is broken without it. A move ban would in this case be a) simpler (less individual things banned), b) leave less things banned allowing for a wider metagame, and c) in this particular case it's obvious why thousand arrows is different for mono than for metas like OU, because in OU you can just run a mon that isn't hit S.E. by it... Compare that to banning zygarde-doge which is nowhere near as good in conventional tiers, it's more obvious why things are the way they are.
- Zygarde is *potentially* broken with Thousand Waves ----> Zygarde is broken
- Smeargle is *potentially* broken with Thousand Waves ----> Thousand Waves is broken
This isn't how it works. By banning Thousand Arrows, you're separating the pokemon Zygarde from its exclusive move Thousand arrows, making these two entities, instead of one. This would be like banning Protean, instead of Greninja, because it views Protean not as an intrinsic trait of Greninja. THousand arrows is literally apart of what makes zygarde 10/50 zygarde now, and taking away that element changes the pokemon as a whole.a) simpler (less individual things banned)
What type of effect do you think ThousandArrows-less zygarde would have on the meta? As many of people have (for the wrong reasons) brought up zygarde's subpar stats. If it were something like an entire types best 8 mons or something getting banned, then yea you might have some sort of point here, but cmon this argument has very little weight holding up you saying that thousand arrows itself should be banned.b) leave less things banned allowing for a wider metagame
I dont even understand what part C meant
Shadow tag is an intrinsically noncompetitive ability because it takes out one of the biggest elements in the game: switching. The user automatically has a near overwhelming advantage over the opponent. Every pokemon that has the ability shadow tag does the same thing. This is different from Smeargle and Zygarde with thousand arrows, because zygarde is near broken with it, while smeargle isn't. Smeargle cannot abuse a 115 speed or really high bulk to setup Ddance, not has the attacking stats to do significant damage with it. Not sure why Arena Trap hasn't been looked at in OU, but the mono council has discussed shadow tag/arena trap but just didn't think they were prevalent enough in mono to be banned.Edit: I'd also like to draw a comparison with the Shadow Tag ban. While banning Wobbuffet and Gothitelle would also have worked perfectly well, a Shadow Tag ban not only removed two problems with a single ban, it also made it easier to see why those two mons couldn't be used.
On whether I think Zygarde is broken or not:
I think you're also wrong. Electric being near noncompetitive in a match up vs zygarde is not because of a problem with the typing of electric itself. Electric is multiple ground immunities in Rotom-w, Thundurus, and Zapdos. Zygarde's move thousand arrows ignores these. No typing has an immunity to this. You're literally saying: electric types are weak to ground types. Every single type has a weakness, but they're not left hopeless by them, which was evident with Electric vs ground types last gen. Electric teams, although not being able to hit ground types with its electric STAB attacks, were still at least competitive last gen. Now, the matchup is mindless button mashing by zygarde, and electric's attempts at playing around it. Flyingteams are extremely weak to zygarde (I played one game on the ladder yesterday but didn't save the replay, so take this part with a grain of salt, I can be completely wrong. I might ask around to play the matchup later but I'll prolly get lazy) but their natural immensities to thousand arrows is gone, which is not a problem made clear by any other mon than zygarde.You guys do realize they dont do bans base on if a poke beats a type anymore there was a change in philosophy. Especially to mons that already beat that type or is super effective against it. Zydog wont get banned if you guys just keep bringing up electric,rock,poison you need to prove that it breaks other types that its not super effective against other than that your points really are just complaints to you forcing yourself on a type that has a big threat in the current meta. As i said before its like scizor/terrakion to ice and its like a keldeo to rock though its a pain and hard to work around they arent broken. You just got to work that much harder now to keep up with the current meta. To further defend zydog its a slight buff to ground when it comes to certain match ups and all fairness it was needed now that grounds weakness to ice got made much hard with the added ability slush rush and new move aurora veil and such. You guys also make it seem like electric vs ground match up wasn't onesided before gravity lando was a very common threat that completely shuts down electric so I don't know why you guys choose to complain now when the same type of move was already in existence in the first place.
How are you comparing gravity landorus to zygarde?????????You guys also make it seem like electric vs ground match up wasn't onesided before gravity lando
Thousand arrows is literally gravity and a 90 base power attack in one. Gravity only has one part of this, then it has 5 turns to attack. There is no restriction for for thousand arrows. Zygarde 10 has 115 base speed, so I dont see how this isnt similar to excadrill under 8 turns of sand back in oras that lead to the smooth rock ban.
- If smooth rock was allowed this gen, the only mon that would outspeed drill in sand would be Raichu under elec terrain. (this is with gravity up btw)
- With zygarde 10, the only relevant things that outspeed it are Tapu KOko, Raichu under elec terrain, and scarfXurkitree. Furthermore, Zygarde has eternal gravity, and keeps its speed.
The question we need to ask ourselves is Is this really that big a difference? I say no.
I think Zygarde 10 and 50 are busted in mono because of their exclusive move thousand arrows because the move ignores the would be counters types like electric, poison, and (tentative) flying originally had to it, but I did think we should give it more time because they're new pokemon, and im not ready to say outright that it has no place in monotype ever. It's so hard to tell this early. My thought process with quickbanning of gen7 mons is can the metagame potentially adapt to it/are we still stuck in an ORAS mindset with three weeks in. If yes, then wait. If no, then ban. If its obvious that mono cannot function while its in the meta, then I think it should be banned. If its not obvious, I think we should give the mon some time. Ground is a great offensive typing, and there are mechanics it's attacks, like air balloon and levitate, but thousand arrows ignores it, and its ground attack is given free reign.
This is part is for everyone whos sayin "lels XD zygarde is 10000000miles from being broken what u mean lolololxdxdxd":
For most suspects,I can understand both viewpoints. I cannot for this one. Someone please toss me some of your reasonings for it. You can PM me on PS or
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