I know your a little high and mighty because you voted but that is no reason to attack the majority of the pokemon populace. If i cant move in a battle. meaning the bitch just freezes. How am i suppose to play? Please answer this im dying to know the secret. And where in the hell did i say i wanted to or deserve to be on the council? If i wanted too i could have wasted my time going on the ladder trying to get to 1600+ just to get lagged out and lose at 1400 then i have to play twice as many battles just to get a sufficient rating so that was not an option. There are many wifi battlers that have the experience to vote. Just because the players use the original device the game was made on to battle does not auto fuck there skill in the game. ( i know there are many noobs on wifi. But we all started and still play wifi). I admit, i did not read the rules to becoming a voter you got me. You won. Congrats. But anyways just like in a government people do have the right to complain just not with violence (or infractions will happen)
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Salamence is Uber.
- Thread starter Curtains
- Start date
1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
there will be a jump in stall since everyone overhypes "mence's stallbreaking ability", and then everyone will be running a FWG core, instead of dragon and steel.
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
IMO no, everyone overhypes mence's stallbreaking ability. other stuff can stallbreak too.
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
celebi, shaymin, breloom to an extent (we still got good old bulkydos), infernape, other dragons
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
i wanted a more open poll rather than a counsel based decision. if the counsel is supposed to represent the people (smogon), then they should be elected by the people correct? of course someone has to flesh out some crazy rules for electing people as if they were senators, but it would reduce the amount of hate towards the counsel itself.
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
i wouldnt know, i dont play ubers. logically it should be inferior to rayquaza, but thats just an opinion thats based off no experience in ubers at all.
6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
scizor, weavile, mamo, magnezone
7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
shaymin is my best bet
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
nope.
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
i was pro-OU in the debate, residual damage playing a big role on that decision, so i didnt think mence was a good candidate.
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
nothing in particular. if anything winy people will get jirachi on the suspect tier.
there will be a jump in stall since everyone overhypes "mence's stallbreaking ability", and then everyone will be running a FWG core, instead of dragon and steel.
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
IMO no, everyone overhypes mence's stallbreaking ability. other stuff can stallbreak too.
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
celebi, shaymin, breloom to an extent (we still got good old bulkydos), infernape, other dragons
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
i wanted a more open poll rather than a counsel based decision. if the counsel is supposed to represent the people (smogon), then they should be elected by the people correct? of course someone has to flesh out some crazy rules for electing people as if they were senators, but it would reduce the amount of hate towards the counsel itself.
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
i wouldnt know, i dont play ubers. logically it should be inferior to rayquaza, but thats just an opinion thats based off no experience in ubers at all.
6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
scizor, weavile, mamo, magnezone
7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
shaymin is my best bet
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
nope.
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
i was pro-OU in the debate, residual damage playing a big role on that decision, so i didnt think mence was a good candidate.
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
nothing in particular. if anything winy people will get jirachi on the suspect tier.
Well, as people have been saying, there will be the FWG cores going around, and people will no longer need to feel as paranoid about using Choiced Earthquakes considering we just banned 2 Ground-immune pokemon in very short intervals. Also, people are definitely not going to run +Speed base 100 Scarfers as much anymore since they're really not needed as much. In addition, while I disagree with this, people are going to run less Steel-types, because of no more 135 base Attack Outrages. However, I don't think this is a good idea, because Steels are those pokemon that are just ridiculously easy to fit on teams because they have a bajillion resistances and weaknesses that are easy to cover.
Meh, people will try to make it a dominant force, but with Heatran everywhere, it's not going to last very long. In my experience, LO Heatran eats stall for breakfast. Same thing with Breloom and Shaymin (provided there's something to kill Blissey).
Specs Kingdra is inevitably going to become more popular and wreck Stall with just its STABs. Also, in my experience, Specially Defensive SubSeed Abomasnow can really fuck with Stall teams since he outright counters bulky Waters, takes out their Leftovers, and the Grass types that try to take the Leech Seed get immediate frosbite from Blizzard.
Another thing I like is SubRoost Togekiss with Sub/Toxic/Air Slash/Roost, which can completely ruin things like Blissey and defensive Rotom-A as well as bulky Waters with just some Toxic/Toxic Spikes. From there, all it really needs to do is alternate SubRoost and flinching the opponent out when they try to recover, while doing respectable damage with its Air Slash, even with 0 SpA EVs.
I think Offensive play will be just fine.
Well, there's Heatran who no longer has to worry about Salamence coming in on its Fire attacks (though it still took a hell of a wallop from them). There's Shaymin who longer has to run HP Ice, and can instead run HP Fire to wreck Scizor, Forretress, and Skarmory. Kingdra is obviously brought up a peg because it's now the fastest DDer in the tier, and therefore doesn't need to worry about getting destroyed before a boost by Salamence. Bronzong can do even better with his Offensive Trick Room set now because he no longer has to switch out because of Intimidate ruining his cleaning potential. Breloom no longer gets Intimidated either, and doesn't need to switch out if he's not behind a Sub since he could've gotten Fire Blasted. Abomasnow I already mentioned, and although he doesn't benefit directly from Salamence leaving, he benefits from the FWG cores, because he completely sets up on the Waters while ruining the Grasses with Blizzard. The lower amount of Steels is helpful to him too.
It was alright, Shaymin-S certainly could've used a process like this one since it easily got the worst treatment out of any suspect both times it was voted on. However, one thing I didn't like about this process is that if you weren't extremely well-known in the community, there was literally no point in trying to get a vote. I know that you didn't have to have tournament experience, but it quite obviously played a huge part in who was selected. To be honest, I'm not even sure that the IRC coversation was needed, because it's pretty obvious that at that point, none of them were actually going to change their minds, no matter how much someone tried to argue with them. Anyway, what's done is done.
I have no comment on this.
Scizor, but I really don't think he should see a decrease, especially since he's still a great priority user, and is a hell of a SDer. Not to mention that with the right move, nothing can switch into his CB set. The extremely powerful U-turn is awesome too, especially considering how easily Scizor switches in.
Jirachi might see a slight decrease since he's no longer needed to revenge Salamence, but somehow I doubt it.
UU to OU
Uxie - Useful lead that's been rising in usage for a few months now. Whether or not it has to do with Salamence, I don't know.
Sceptile - Super fast Grass pokemon who no longer has to worry about Salamence coming in on a 4x resisted Leaf Storm.
BL to OU
Shaymin - No longer has to run HP Ice and can run HP Fire, shortening its list of counters by quite a bit.
Abomasnow - Specially Defensive SubSeeder can make a fool out of the W in the FWG, and it can take out Grass types that try to switch into its Leech Seed. He also ruins Stall teams with Snow Warning, taking away their Leftovers. Steel types will also be used a bit less, which is good news for Abomasnow since he really doesn't like them.
Cresselia - If and only if Stall becomes a lot more popular will this come to OU, but since that's what a lot of people seem to think, it just might make the cut.
Not really. I think that if this ban happened before Latias was banned, Latias would still have a chance in OU, since people's intolerance of Dragons seemed to brush off on Latias, when I personally think that Salamence was a much bigger problem.
I personally didn't think it was the best candidate for Ubers because I believe that people are taking the Support characteristic too far and are now applying to anything that just misses out on the Offensive characteristic, but is still powerful enough to take out a couple of the opponent's pokemon. Whether this is a problem with the Support characteristic or the voters, I don't know.
I don't want anything else to go to ubers. I think we've already banned too much. Then again, I only like banning things when they're gamebreaking, ie. Wobbuffet.
About the process-- I think a lot of users will agree that the suspect process used in 4th Gen has been too time consuming. Our administrators have not only taken on huge burdens to undergo the process, but have also wisely acknowledged that the process was too lengthy and demanding of the whole community. In Gen 5, we will be looking to rectifying this mistake, and speeding Salamence's test was a right step in the process.
The stability of the metagame (that is, decisively setting tiers and rules) is more important than the placement of individual suspect pokemon. Really, the game can live with or without Mence, it can live with or without Latias.
Ultimately, tiering is subjective and comes down to opinions anyway-- so why not just have trust and faith in a few of the best of our own, and leave their opinions to make the decisions.
Than the rest of us can get back to playing and enjoying the game.
I'll say it again, but even though I disagree with the tiering of Salamence, I'm very happy with the council, and hope the process can be made even more speedy (even if it is even less democratic) in the future.
The stability of the metagame (that is, decisively setting tiers and rules) is more important than the placement of individual suspect pokemon. Really, the game can live with or without Mence, it can live with or without Latias.
Ultimately, tiering is subjective and comes down to opinions anyway-- so why not just have trust and faith in a few of the best of our own, and leave their opinions to make the decisions.
Than the rest of us can get back to playing and enjoying the game.
I'll say it again, but even though I disagree with the tiering of Salamence, I'm very happy with the council, and hope the process can be made even more speedy (even if it is even less democratic) in the future.
Athenodoros
Official Smogon Know-It-All
I haven't been here for very long, and am happy to listen to arguments to the contrary, but it appears to me that as soon as something gets to the top of the statistics, it is immediately thrown into suspect. I think that however many are banned, there will always be something which will step up now that it's counters have gone, and so much of the metagame goes to the uber tier. I am very happy to have a diverse metagame, but I think that this is not going to get one, and it has become a bit ridiculous. I, for one, was against banning mence because I don't think it was game-breaking. It was reasonably easy to work around and always found that even without thinking about it a balanced team would be able to counter mence.
Super Mario Bro
All we ever look for
This is a happy day for Breloom. Now it's going to be even more impossible to switch into.
Can you really call it a Fire/Water/Grass meta that's all that different from the original?
Heatran and Infernape are still going to be the only fire types that see real use, and both have always been top 15 pokemon if not top 10. Heatran is a Steel type too, every bit as responsible for steel's dominance as much as Scizor or Metagross.
As for water types, they have ALWAYS been dominant, and having a lot of synergy with and against steel/dragon types, their presence has and always will be felt. Water is simply 1 of the 3 strongest types.
The old meta was more like a Steel/Dragon/Water meta than anything, and if it becomes a Heatran/Water metagame, just with a bit more celebi and shaymin usage to fight against the increased water use (with Salamence gone, Water will get more recognition as the 2nd best stab type), than I'd say things haven't really changed much.
Besides, it's not like Dragons are gone. Dragonite and Flygon are both Top 10 pokemon in the suspect metagame!! Flygon has always been one of the most solid picks in OU for both bulky offense and offense, and it's see even more use now. Kingdra is going to get some serious recognition eventually as a wallbreaker too.
No, Dragon is far from dead even without mence.
If there is a huge surgance towards Heatran/Bulky Water/Celebi, than I'd like to point out that is the exact state the metagame was in after Garchomp before Latias. If anything, that type of meta disappeared in bigger part thanks to Latias than Salamence.
Heatran and Infernape are still going to be the only fire types that see real use, and both have always been top 15 pokemon if not top 10. Heatran is a Steel type too, every bit as responsible for steel's dominance as much as Scizor or Metagross.
As for water types, they have ALWAYS been dominant, and having a lot of synergy with and against steel/dragon types, their presence has and always will be felt. Water is simply 1 of the 3 strongest types.
The old meta was more like a Steel/Dragon/Water meta than anything, and if it becomes a Heatran/Water metagame, just with a bit more celebi and shaymin usage to fight against the increased water use (with Salamence gone, Water will get more recognition as the 2nd best stab type), than I'd say things haven't really changed much.
Besides, it's not like Dragons are gone. Dragonite and Flygon are both Top 10 pokemon in the suspect metagame!! Flygon has always been one of the most solid picks in OU for both bulky offense and offense, and it's see even more use now. Kingdra is going to get some serious recognition eventually as a wallbreaker too.
No, Dragon is far from dead even without mence.
If there is a huge surgance towards Heatran/Bulky Water/Celebi, than I'd like to point out that is the exact state the metagame was in after Garchomp before Latias. If anything, that type of meta disappeared in bigger part thanks to Latias than Salamence.
I disagree. While it may seem like that at a glance,
explain why, if that's the case, explain why, Scizor and Tran haven't been banned? They've been at the top for a long time? What about Azelf? It's been the #1 lead for ages.
It's because mence nigh upon un-counterable, and the whole metagame revolves around it.
The only thing in ubers I believe might be OU is Latias.
Athenodoros
Official Smogon Know-It-All
I did think about that, but what really made me think this was the way that as soon as mence is banned, people on this thread have mentioned nothing but heatran and there were predictions of a suspect test. As well, Azelf is reasonably easy to counter as a lead with priority, weather leads or fake-out + sash leads. However, I did notice Scizor, and while Pokes like Megnezone and bulky waters like swampert alleviate this I suppose it has been on top for some time now.
I think instead of considering anything for Suspect next, I think we should turn to the most annoying motherfucker in the room: Breloom.
With Mence gone, how the fuck am I supposed to counter that guy? And I am not shoving Aerial Ace on my Gliscor and Lum just to counter him. That's just fucking pussy shit. Seriously, Breloom can get something asleep, and Sub, and just start to shove his dick in your face while you struggle to find something to break his Sub, and something fast enough to KO him before he uses Spore.
Seriously. I think he should be Uber by the Support characteristic. He can put a counter to sleep, like Heatran, and then switch in Jirachi, who loves the fact that Heatran is asleep.
/rant
Just so my post isn't purely 100% rant, I guess I can do a small survey to cool down....
1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
Breloom. I can't use Lum Mence to counter that (BAN ME PLEASE) anymore.
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
I see it. The new defensive stall core: Heatran, Rotom, Blissey, Gyarados, Breloom. Fuck.
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Breloom. Duh!
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
It was alright, although it was obvious what the result would be. They could have done themselves a favor and saved the trouble by just announcing the decision.
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
Like it has always been doing: being a wannabe Rayquaza.
6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
Salamence, obviously. Scizor can go in a ditch. Tyranitar might thrive more to kill Rotom that would go along a stall core.
7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
Uxie, definitely Uxie. Roserade and Shaymin for the grass types.
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
Hell no. BW is coming in a couple of months, and by then Game Freak might have created that ugly fire pig thing to counter Breloom. Why couldn't they wait after?
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
No. Breloom has more potential to shit on your face.
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
If you guys haven't realized, Breloom would become an absolute fucker. I lure Swampert in with Jirachi. I switch to Breloom as you Earthquake. You switch out as I Sub, and you send in Heatran. I Spore. Oh fuck. I shitted on your Heatran's face. Rinse and repeat.
I quit Pokemon... Until Breloom is banned, or BW gives us a better solution to him.
With Mence gone, how the fuck am I supposed to counter that guy? And I am not shoving Aerial Ace on my Gliscor and Lum just to counter him. That's just fucking pussy shit. Seriously, Breloom can get something asleep, and Sub, and just start to shove his dick in your face while you struggle to find something to break his Sub, and something fast enough to KO him before he uses Spore.
Seriously. I think he should be Uber by the Support characteristic. He can put a counter to sleep, like Heatran, and then switch in Jirachi, who loves the fact that Heatran is asleep.
QF FUCKING T. ScarfTran is a shaky counter at best, and Gliscor would be carrying Aerial Ace only for Breloom. So no more Taunt, or no more Roost. Oh yea, RestTalk Rotom-h sucks. Breloom for Suspect. Might as well carry Lum on everything. Fuck.RaikouLover said:
/rant
Just so my post isn't purely 100% rant, I guess I can do a small survey to cool down....
1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
Breloom. I can't use Lum Mence to counter that (BAN ME PLEASE) anymore.
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
I see it. The new defensive stall core: Heatran, Rotom, Blissey, Gyarados, Breloom. Fuck.
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Breloom. Duh!
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
It was alright, although it was obvious what the result would be. They could have done themselves a favor and saved the trouble by just announcing the decision.
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
Like it has always been doing: being a wannabe Rayquaza.
6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
Salamence, obviously. Scizor can go in a ditch. Tyranitar might thrive more to kill Rotom that would go along a stall core.
7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
Uxie, definitely Uxie. Roserade and Shaymin for the grass types.
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
Hell no. BW is coming in a couple of months, and by then Game Freak might have created that ugly fire pig thing to counter Breloom. Why couldn't they wait after?
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
No. Breloom has more potential to shit on your face.
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
If you guys haven't realized, Breloom would become an absolute fucker. I lure Swampert in with Jirachi. I switch to Breloom as you Earthquake. You switch out as I Sub, and you send in Heatran. I Spore. Oh fuck. I shitted on your Heatran's face. Rinse and repeat.
I quit Pokemon... Until Breloom is banned, or BW gives us a better solution to him.
@The users defending the council: I wasn't claiming these people aren't qualified and didn't put a lot of work into their applications. In fact, my first post said they were extremely qualified. My problem is not with the people but the process itself. Having 9 users instead of 50-100+ deciding on something like a ban on a pokemon obviously will be more flawed and cannot possibly represent the majority of the smogon base. You cannot say it does, look at this thread and all of the people that say Mence is OU, then look at the council who unanimously voted Uber. I'm not saying Mence would have been OU or Uber had we gone with the past suspect process, I'm saying the outcome would have represented what the community thinks a lot more.
It makes everyone else less involved with the process, allowing a select few to make the decisions for everyone. I'm not saying that those players don't deserve their spot on the council, they most certainly do. They have a right to their opinion, but I believe that all of the users able to get a high enough ranking (and submit coherent paragraphs) should be heard as well. It certainly would have caused a lot less upset.
And before you say it, no I didn't try out for the smogon council because I think it is a terrible idea. Would I have made it? Highly unlikely. Would it have changed a single part of my post if I had tried out? Of course not. I'm not hating on the people who are a part of the council, I just think the system is flawed and should possibly be reconsidered in the future.
It makes everyone else less involved with the process, allowing a select few to make the decisions for everyone. I'm not saying that those players don't deserve their spot on the council, they most certainly do. They have a right to their opinion, but I believe that all of the users able to get a high enough ranking (and submit coherent paragraphs) should be heard as well. It certainly would have caused a lot less upset.
And before you say it, no I didn't try out for the smogon council because I think it is a terrible idea. Would I have made it? Highly unlikely. Would it have changed a single part of my post if I had tried out? Of course not. I'm not hating on the people who are a part of the council, I just think the system is flawed and should possibly be reconsidered in the future.
Ironically, salamence's removal will most likely diversify and amplify the dragon scene, which I like. Now each of the dragons in OU actually fulfill different roles, unlike at the advent of dp when it was physical sweeper physical sweeper physical sweeper.
Since scizor and mence aren't in the spotlight anymore and heatran seems to be the new star I expect kingdra usage to raise as a counter, and flygon & dragonite to raise as checks/revenge kills.
Since scizor and mence aren't in the spotlight anymore and heatran seems to be the new star I expect kingdra usage to raise as a counter, and flygon & dragonite to raise as checks/revenge kills.
annoying=/=ban. and there are more options than salamence..
now all that is left is to ban jirachi and we are going to have a 120% metagame.
1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
to the best. salamence was overcentralizing the metagame and was impossible to fully counter him, you had to sacrifice a pokemon only to know his set and if you for example lost a speed tie with scarf flygon VS +1 mence then it was better to just quit.
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
No. some persons forget that other pokemons like infernape, dragonite, flygon(this one can also run mixed) and kingdra exist, i also found mix metagross to be effective at breaking stall but that is just personal experience. actually i think mixnite will break stall a lot faster then mence because of acess to superpower(bliss) and t-bolt(both skarm and gyara).
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
that is quite a difficult question if you think for a sec. on one hand you got steel types like metagross and jirachi who were hammered on the ass by EQ and fire blast but on the other hand they are others who were instead walled by mence, shaymin is a good example. Lucario also enjoy mence going away.
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
i think it was nice and fast while only picking the best ones to vote. but at the same time its a small amount of users for such a important voting and for all we know they could just hate mence and say he should be uber. i am not saying this is what happened, this was just a silly example/joke and should not be taken serious.
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
pretty good. Salamence is a powerful DD user on ubers thanks to him base 100 speed, with luck on your side the only checks will be scarf pokemons like mewtwo and skymin. i still prefer to just run quaza though.
6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
scizor is going down together with scarf flygon and maybe scarf jirachi. not much to say about this.
7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
that is a hard one. i dont play UU a lot but if i had to guess it would be shaymin.
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
any time is time for voting and banning. the metagame is on its final stages so in the least i want players to have a fun and balanced experience with the metagame and dont suffer the same as players like me who had to fight bitchs like latias and mence itself on all teams.
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
besides jirachi(hax you to death, why is jirachi OU and skymin Uber btw? they all just hax you to death with senere grace iron head/air slash.) salamence was the best candidate for Ubers. his power and speed plus his ability to actually take a hit(you dont see that on stuff like nape and luke) made him nothing less then a mini-quaza who happen to be a litte faster. destroying offensive teams with only a bit of prediction. or none if the enemy already lost all his steel types.
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
Jirachi and even there i got my doubts. sure i already saw(and suffered from) a jirachi iron heading heatrans and magnezones to death(F*uck you to anyone that say the flinching multiple turns is rare) but besides that it lack the firepower salamence had, plus it got horrible STAB moves, jirachi could be suspest but i doubt it would be voted uber for hax alone.
excuse me for my bad english on such a important thread. never studied on my life and not native from USA. that aside i think it was a fair result for the voting(though as i said the amount of voters was a letdown) and i expect the metagame to either become like pre-platinun(fun metagame), ADV(balanced) or both.
1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
to the best. salamence was overcentralizing the metagame and was impossible to fully counter him, you had to sacrifice a pokemon only to know his set and if you for example lost a speed tie with scarf flygon VS +1 mence then it was better to just quit.
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
No. some persons forget that other pokemons like infernape, dragonite, flygon(this one can also run mixed) and kingdra exist, i also found mix metagross to be effective at breaking stall but that is just personal experience. actually i think mixnite will break stall a lot faster then mence because of acess to superpower(bliss) and t-bolt(both skarm and gyara).
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
that is quite a difficult question if you think for a sec. on one hand you got steel types like metagross and jirachi who were hammered on the ass by EQ and fire blast but on the other hand they are others who were instead walled by mence, shaymin is a good example. Lucario also enjoy mence going away.
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
i think it was nice and fast while only picking the best ones to vote. but at the same time its a small amount of users for such a important voting and for all we know they could just hate mence and say he should be uber. i am not saying this is what happened, this was just a silly example/joke and should not be taken serious.
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
pretty good. Salamence is a powerful DD user on ubers thanks to him base 100 speed, with luck on your side the only checks will be scarf pokemons like mewtwo and skymin. i still prefer to just run quaza though.
6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
scizor is going down together with scarf flygon and maybe scarf jirachi. not much to say about this.
7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
that is a hard one. i dont play UU a lot but if i had to guess it would be shaymin.
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
any time is time for voting and banning. the metagame is on its final stages so in the least i want players to have a fun and balanced experience with the metagame and dont suffer the same as players like me who had to fight bitchs like latias and mence itself on all teams.
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
besides jirachi(hax you to death, why is jirachi OU and skymin Uber btw? they all just hax you to death with senere grace iron head/air slash.) salamence was the best candidate for Ubers. his power and speed plus his ability to actually take a hit(you dont see that on stuff like nape and luke) made him nothing less then a mini-quaza who happen to be a litte faster. destroying offensive teams with only a bit of prediction. or none if the enemy already lost all his steel types.
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
Jirachi and even there i got my doubts. sure i already saw(and suffered from) a jirachi iron heading heatrans and magnezones to death(F*uck you to anyone that say the flinching multiple turns is rare) but besides that it lack the firepower salamence had, plus it got horrible STAB moves, jirachi could be suspest but i doubt it would be voted uber for hax alone.
excuse me for my bad english on such a important thread. never studied on my life and not native from USA. that aside i think it was a fair result for the voting(though as i said the amount of voters was a letdown) and i expect the metagame to either become like pre-platinun(fun metagame), ADV(balanced) or both.
@stickerz:
and besides mence does fine in ubers, and actually works well with rayquaza.
1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
Taking a look at the Suspect statistics for June, it's clear that Heatran will have much more freedom in the metagame, as it took nearly 40% of all usages. Obviously, pokemon that pair well with Heatran will exist as well; the FWG core has been noted several times already.
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
Not more so than normal, I think. Again, the suspect Top 10 remains highly offensive, and it's not like other stallbreakers don't exist. Breloom, Shaymin, Infernape, Taunt Gliscor...solutions will (and have) become apparent.
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Immediately, fighting types come to mind. While the loss of Latias was a great boon to FWG cores, the loss of Mence throws fighting types into the mix. One less switch-in to the likes of Breloom, Lucario, Infernape, and even Machamp isn't exactly good news - Gliscor and Gyara will be relied on more than ever, and neither one of them can cover all four of those threats.
Dragonite, Kingdra, and Flygon should also see some further use. Flygon's resistances and resilience against residual damage combine with the potential for Roost to allow LO sets to become prominent, not to mention Band/Scarf sets (which it runs better than either of the other two, especially now that it can afford to run Adamant on Scarf sets). Aside from its roles in Rain, Kingdra can utilize Specs to hit with Latias-esque strength Draco Meteor, and is also the fastest remaining DDer in the tier, and although it is much weaker than Mence or Nite, it sports a Water-type STAB to compensate. Speaking of Dragonite, it can step in and somewhat fill the void Mence left behind by running bulky DD sets, and of course MixNite will be useful in breaking stall.
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
Some is lost, some is gained. The speed and efficiency of the system is a welcome break from the long and arduous process that preceeded it. However, it is basically a suspect vote with an intentionally much smaller voting pool. Still, I think it is adequate given the requirements to simply get ON the council.
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
Somewhat irrelevant, IMO, but it does the same as it always has. A late-game DDer that sweeps once MixQuaza has cleared the field of Lugia and Groudon. It forces a speedtie with ScarfPalkia and ScarfJirachi (which Ray can't do), though it is still outsped by ScarfChomp. We'll see.
6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
To be honest, steels. Several teams often ran 2 or more steels in the Dragon dominated metagame (this is especially true of the Latias era, which essentially required a SpD steel and a purely defensive steel IMO), and this won't be necessary anymore. Several of the resistances provided by the steel type (I'm thinking Poison, Grass, Dark, Steel, and to a lesser extent, Ghost) aren't used as frequently as some of the other resists, which can be taken by the FWG core. A single steel should be enough to deal with the Dark, Ghost, and Bug attacks being thrown around, especially with Heatran being a prominent member of the FWG core and carrying a steel subtyping itself.
ScarfJirachi may also fall in usage. It checks plenty of threats, but it competes with Flygon as a Scarf user, who sports a Spikes immunity and has U-turn. Gyarados is easily checked, be it through the use of a bulky water carrying an electric move, Celebi/Shaymin, or of course Rotom-A.
7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
Difficult to say. Milotic may once again rise from the depths, as her inability to deal with the powerful STAB Outrage (outside of Marvel Scale) is one of the reasons she went down, aside from the loss of Hypnosis' accuracy. She fits well into the FWG core, sports instant recovery and bulk over other bulky waters, an ability that could prove useful to absorb status being thrown around by the newly revived grass-type, and is essentially a perfect counter for Heatran.
While not technically UU, Heracross has been teetering on the edge for quite some time, and this may be the boost it needs to finally bring it back. Without Mence around to Intimidate it, CBCross could definitely see some more use (see Question 3 on the rise of fighting types), especially as people look for alternative stallbreakers.
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
I'm not sure how to interpret this, it's not like the anything truly depends on Mence's fate. The DP metagame may settle into stability after this banning, which would be impeccable timing with Black and White just around the corner. That said, the new games will probably see all the suspects unbanned (Salamence included) to see how they fit in with all the new threats. Fortunately, the speedy process used for Mence has paved the way for future suspects.
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
Again, irrelevant to its OU or Suspect status. In Ubers, Mence is good as a late game cleaner in the Ray/Mence double dragon strategy. Otherwise, there isn't much else.
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
Why does there have to be a new suspect? The point of these tests isn't to induct pokemon into some prestigious Uber metagame, it is to balance the Standard one. I can't think of any pokemon that stands out as a suspect - even when Latias was around to overshadow Mence, there existed at least some concern over Salamence's status. I haven't caught wind of any such concerns regarding other pokemon.
-On a similar note, I'm wondering if Stealth Rock will decrease in usage. So many teams used it as a primary check to Mence, making it almost unthinkable to leave home without the move. Gyarados and Zapdos, the other flying-type threats, are soundly checked/countered, so I could definitely see the use of Stealth Rock as a defensive measure decrease, which could mean the end of the suicide lead. Of course, it remains useful for exerting offensive pressure, so how these two factors interact remains to be seen.
Taking a look at the Suspect statistics for June, it's clear that Heatran will have much more freedom in the metagame, as it took nearly 40% of all usages. Obviously, pokemon that pair well with Heatran will exist as well; the FWG core has been noted several times already.
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
Not more so than normal, I think. Again, the suspect Top 10 remains highly offensive, and it's not like other stallbreakers don't exist. Breloom, Shaymin, Infernape, Taunt Gliscor...solutions will (and have) become apparent.
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Immediately, fighting types come to mind. While the loss of Latias was a great boon to FWG cores, the loss of Mence throws fighting types into the mix. One less switch-in to the likes of Breloom, Lucario, Infernape, and even Machamp isn't exactly good news - Gliscor and Gyara will be relied on more than ever, and neither one of them can cover all four of those threats.
Dragonite, Kingdra, and Flygon should also see some further use. Flygon's resistances and resilience against residual damage combine with the potential for Roost to allow LO sets to become prominent, not to mention Band/Scarf sets (which it runs better than either of the other two, especially now that it can afford to run Adamant on Scarf sets). Aside from its roles in Rain, Kingdra can utilize Specs to hit with Latias-esque strength Draco Meteor, and is also the fastest remaining DDer in the tier, and although it is much weaker than Mence or Nite, it sports a Water-type STAB to compensate. Speaking of Dragonite, it can step in and somewhat fill the void Mence left behind by running bulky DD sets, and of course MixNite will be useful in breaking stall.
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
Some is lost, some is gained. The speed and efficiency of the system is a welcome break from the long and arduous process that preceeded it. However, it is basically a suspect vote with an intentionally much smaller voting pool. Still, I think it is adequate given the requirements to simply get ON the council.
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
Somewhat irrelevant, IMO, but it does the same as it always has. A late-game DDer that sweeps once MixQuaza has cleared the field of Lugia and Groudon. It forces a speedtie with ScarfPalkia and ScarfJirachi (which Ray can't do), though it is still outsped by ScarfChomp. We'll see.
6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
To be honest, steels. Several teams often ran 2 or more steels in the Dragon dominated metagame (this is especially true of the Latias era, which essentially required a SpD steel and a purely defensive steel IMO), and this won't be necessary anymore. Several of the resistances provided by the steel type (I'm thinking Poison, Grass, Dark, Steel, and to a lesser extent, Ghost) aren't used as frequently as some of the other resists, which can be taken by the FWG core. A single steel should be enough to deal with the Dark, Ghost, and Bug attacks being thrown around, especially with Heatran being a prominent member of the FWG core and carrying a steel subtyping itself.
ScarfJirachi may also fall in usage. It checks plenty of threats, but it competes with Flygon as a Scarf user, who sports a Spikes immunity and has U-turn. Gyarados is easily checked, be it through the use of a bulky water carrying an electric move, Celebi/Shaymin, or of course Rotom-A.
7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
Difficult to say. Milotic may once again rise from the depths, as her inability to deal with the powerful STAB Outrage (outside of Marvel Scale) is one of the reasons she went down, aside from the loss of Hypnosis' accuracy. She fits well into the FWG core, sports instant recovery and bulk over other bulky waters, an ability that could prove useful to absorb status being thrown around by the newly revived grass-type, and is essentially a perfect counter for Heatran.
While not technically UU, Heracross has been teetering on the edge for quite some time, and this may be the boost it needs to finally bring it back. Without Mence around to Intimidate it, CBCross could definitely see some more use (see Question 3 on the rise of fighting types), especially as people look for alternative stallbreakers.
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
I'm not sure how to interpret this, it's not like the anything truly depends on Mence's fate. The DP metagame may settle into stability after this banning, which would be impeccable timing with Black and White just around the corner. That said, the new games will probably see all the suspects unbanned (Salamence included) to see how they fit in with all the new threats. Fortunately, the speedy process used for Mence has paved the way for future suspects.
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
Again, irrelevant to its OU or Suspect status. In Ubers, Mence is good as a late game cleaner in the Ray/Mence double dragon strategy. Otherwise, there isn't much else.
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
Why does there have to be a new suspect? The point of these tests isn't to induct pokemon into some prestigious Uber metagame, it is to balance the Standard one. I can't think of any pokemon that stands out as a suspect - even when Latias was around to overshadow Mence, there existed at least some concern over Salamence's status. I haven't caught wind of any such concerns regarding other pokemon.
-On a similar note, I'm wondering if Stealth Rock will decrease in usage. So many teams used it as a primary check to Mence, making it almost unthinkable to leave home without the move. Gyarados and Zapdos, the other flying-type threats, are soundly checked/countered, so I could definitely see the use of Stealth Rock as a defensive measure decrease, which could mean the end of the suicide lead. Of course, it remains useful for exerting offensive pressure, so how these two factors interact remains to be seen.
I'll just raise a point here, but Rayquaza's offensive stats are murderous. Base 150 is insane for an offensive stat, no matter which way you slice it. Draco Meteors coming from Salamence's base 110 Special Attack hurt enough as is. Base 150? Yeah, anything that doesn't resist it will die. And Fire Blast/Earthquake won't have a problem killing what does resist it. Hell, let's even do some damage calculations with Draco Meteor as a theoretical vs the end-all-be-all special wall, Blissey. (these calcs assume standard sets)
399 Atk vs 405 Def & 651 HP (140 Base Power): 193 - 228 (29.65% - 35.02%) These assume the mixquaza set vs the ubers wisher. Not bad for walling it, right? Let's not forget he has the physical spectrum on his side. How about Brick Break?
399 Atk vs 119 Def & 651 HP (70 Base Power): 438 - 516 (67.28% - 79.26%)
Between Meteor and Brick Break, it'd KO even Blissey outright, something Salamence fails to do without locking itself into Outrage. Just for the hell of it, let's calculate Outrage.
399 Atk vs 119 Def & 651 HP (120 Base Power): 561 - 660 (86.18% - 101.38%)
Basically, if SR is down, Blissey is toast. We could do calcs for every other wall out there like Bronzong or Skarmory, but that'd be entirely unnecessary. Long story short, Rayquaza is legitimately too powerful for the OU tier. He'd 2HKO everything at worst. Oh, and he has a lot more dangerous options at his disposal, meaning he wouldn't need to patch up his speed stat that much. SD+Extremespeed anyone?
And I'm tired right now, so tomorrow I'll give you a good reason for him going to Ubers. The short reason, in my opinion, is that he's as unpredictable as Mew from an offensive standpoint, and if played with even an iota of intelligence, he could guarantee a kill, maybe more a game. He could also kill his own counters easily.
And uh, as for the questions:
1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
Looking at statistics, Heatran's usage spiked immensely, so I think there'll be a resurgence of the Fire/Water/Grass triumvirate core on teams, similar to UU. Scizor usage and some Scarf usage will probably fall in response to not needing to be so fast to stop something like Salamence now.
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
A little more, perhaps. Suspect testing showed that stall didn't have it any easier than before. Salamence did keep it in check quite a bit, so that's one less threat that stall users will really have to worry about.
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Infernape, no doubt. Also Dragonite, since he's no longer outclassed offensively.
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
I'll get back to you on this one.
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
This question is rather irrelevant seeing how Ubers is a banlist, a faux tier of sorts, but I'll answer anyways. He makes one hell of a partner to Rayquaza though.
6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
I personally can't say for sure.
7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
Raikou could with the addition of Aura Sphere. Shaymin might also come up. Those are BLs, but it's still the same point basically. As for UUs, I can't quite say for sure.
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
I think it was a fine time to be honest, a bit of diversity in the metagame never hurt.
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
I think the process for picking Salamence was winged a bit. He certainly was one hell of a threat to the OU tier in it's entirety either way.
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
No clue at the moment, I want to see the metagame after the shift settles down.
1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
Looking at statistics, Heatran's usage spiked immensely, so I think there'll be a resurgence of the Fire/Water/Grass triumvirate core on teams, similar to UU. Scizor usage and some Scarf usage will probably fall in response to not needing to be so fast to stop something like Salamence now.
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
A little more, perhaps. Suspect testing showed that stall didn't have it any easier than before. Salamence did keep it in check quite a bit, so that's one less threat that stall users will really have to worry about.
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Infernape, no doubt. Also Dragonite, since he's no longer outclassed offensively.
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
I'll get back to you on this one.
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
This question is rather irrelevant seeing how Ubers is a banlist, a faux tier of sorts, but I'll answer anyways. He makes one hell of a partner to Rayquaza though.
6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
I personally can't say for sure.
7. What pokemon might come from UU to OU as a result of Salamence's banning?
Raikou could with the addition of Aura Sphere. Shaymin might also come up. Those are BLs, but it's still the same point basically. As for UUs, I can't quite say for sure.
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
I think it was a fine time to be honest, a bit of diversity in the metagame never hurt.
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
I think the process for picking Salamence was winged a bit. He certainly was one hell of a threat to the OU tier in it's entirety either way.
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
No clue at the moment, I want to see the metagame after the shift settles down.
Hi! Welcome to Smogon.
It appears you do not understand why Salamence was voted uber. Although the information is currently available as to the exact nature of the discussion, an IRC chat took place in which 9 panelists decided that Salamence is uber.
These 9 panelists are better than you at pokemon.
The reason these 9 people were chosen is because we want the opinions of the BEST players as to the viability of Salamence in the OU metagame. Just like in chess, there are winning strategies in pokemon, and these 9 people decided that Salamence is a strategy that is too good to be fair, thus uber.
We are waiting to see exactly how the discussion went, but it is safe to say that, unless you are a very proficient player, it would all be over your head anyway. I know it's over mine.
And that's really the entire point.
Not everyone really knows how to play pokemon really well, but these people have proven that they do, so they should make the decision. Diluting the pool to more people just means that the less good players have more of a voice, and are probably more wrong than the best.
Let me make something clear to everyone complaining about Smogon being ban-happy: we've only banned two Pokemon that were originally OU. One of them was quite obviously Uber and nearly everyone who's even touched the game was in favor of it being banned. The second one (Salamence, of course) was in line for Suspect testing since it got a brand new move from a brand new game to abuse. The rest were Ubers through and through.
As for UU...well, the entire tier is based on usage from OU. By nature, it's not a stable metagame. Some things are obviously terrible and fit well in a tier with other obviously terrible Pokemon while others like Raikou, Yanmega, and Cresselia, are just fallen OUs that trump them altogether. As long as OUs keep dropping, there's a strong possibility a ban may occur. Heracross has been seeing abysmally low usage in OU lately, so it just may drop in September. I'm sure most of us realize that it's on an entirely different level from the rest of UU and most likely will not last long at all.
You have to realize that banning is a natural process in creating a stable metagame. Everyone has the potential to be a part of that process, but surprisingly few are good or experienced enough to meet the guidelines set for players we want to actually make decisions around here. This is nothing new. If you're good at the game and have been playing it for a while, you're obviously going to have a better grasp of what's going on than a guy at lower ladder who keeps facing Trick Room teams. Don't complain as if you weren't given a say in this or we're just arbitrarily getting rid of everything we don't like. Understand the system before you criticize it.
EDIT: Major deja vu. I have a feeling I've typed this post plenty of times before....
As for UU...well, the entire tier is based on usage from OU. By nature, it's not a stable metagame. Some things are obviously terrible and fit well in a tier with other obviously terrible Pokemon while others like Raikou, Yanmega, and Cresselia, are just fallen OUs that trump them altogether. As long as OUs keep dropping, there's a strong possibility a ban may occur. Heracross has been seeing abysmally low usage in OU lately, so it just may drop in September. I'm sure most of us realize that it's on an entirely different level from the rest of UU and most likely will not last long at all.
You have to realize that banning is a natural process in creating a stable metagame. Everyone has the potential to be a part of that process, but surprisingly few are good or experienced enough to meet the guidelines set for players we want to actually make decisions around here. This is nothing new. If you're good at the game and have been playing it for a while, you're obviously going to have a better grasp of what's going on than a guy at lower ladder who keeps facing Trick Room teams. Don't complain as if you weren't given a say in this or we're just arbitrarily getting rid of everything we don't like. Understand the system before you criticize it.
EDIT: Major deja vu. I have a feeling I've typed this post plenty of times before....
1.How will salamence's removal effect the metagame?
See the Suspect test data.
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
No. Stallbreakers like Infernape are still around, especially now that Latias is gone and the only totally anti-Infernape thing is Tentacruel. Stall will be as good as it ever was, which is to say still quite good in the hands of skilled players.
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Flygon and Dragonite will see more play, not because they're scared of Mence but because Mence was better than them at all but the most niche roles. Nothing is really kept out by Mence that isn't also kept out by those two.
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
Better, simply because it's fast.
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
No idea. Generally worse than Rayquaza, but possibly has some niche uses.
6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
On the whole, the level of Steels will decrease. Scizor will still be the best revenge killer and early-game softener in the format, but it will droop in usage a bit. Magnezone will probably drop the most.
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
Yes. Salamence in the metagame would simply complicate the decision about what new things from Gen 5 should be made OU or Uber. Contrary to what some have posted, adding new pokemon to the format does not make Salamence less broken, it simply means that you have more broken things in the format. Working out what is will be easier.
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
His versatility and power in each build, especially considering you needed different things to counter/check each form, makes the game devolve into Mence wars and essentially a coinflip situation.
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
None; nothing else is quite so centralising. If anything, I would consider things to test for a move down into OU from Uber (Skymin, maybe?).
See the Suspect test data.
2.Will stall be a dominant force?
No. Stallbreakers like Infernape are still around, especially now that Latias is gone and the only totally anti-Infernape thing is Tentacruel. Stall will be as good as it ever was, which is to say still quite good in the hands of skilled players.
3.What pokemon stand out as a pokemon that thrives without salamence?
Flygon and Dragonite will see more play, not because they're scared of Mence but because Mence was better than them at all but the most niche roles. Nothing is really kept out by Mence that isn't also kept out by those two.
4.What did you think of the process for salamence removal?
Better, simply because it's fast.
5.How does Salamence do in ubers?
No idea. Generally worse than Rayquaza, but possibly has some niche uses.
6.What pokemon will see a decrease in use?
On the whole, the level of Steels will decrease. Scizor will still be the best revenge killer and early-game softener in the format, but it will droop in usage a bit. Magnezone will probably drop the most.
None.
8. Do you think this was a good time to ban Salamence?
Yes. Salamence in the metagame would simply complicate the decision about what new things from Gen 5 should be made OU or Uber. Contrary to what some have posted, adding new pokemon to the format does not make Salamence less broken, it simply means that you have more broken things in the format. Working out what is will be easier.
9. Why or why wasn't Salamence a good candidate for ubers?
His versatility and power in each build, especially considering you needed different things to counter/check each form, makes the game devolve into Mence wars and essentially a coinflip situation.
10. Who should be the next candidate for Ubers if you would choose?
None; nothing else is quite so centralising. If anything, I would consider things to test for a move down into OU from Uber (Skymin, maybe?).