Reasons to Stay Optimistic About Pokémon

[bdt2002]

(It's been over four months and this thread still doesn't have a picture. What ever happened to picture files cooperating?)

Hey, guys. It's me again. I don't usually come out and make serious posts like this anywhere, let alone on a Pokémon community website. I've been going through a lot of unusually negative thinking lately, and perhaps the most painful part of this is that I felt like while there are people around me I could talk to in real life, those people may not or have not been able to understand where I'm coming from.

Allow me to cut to the chase, since I'd rather not be making this into a personal speech post. Besides, aren't you curious about why I would choose to post something so out of the ordinary like this on the Smogon Forums of all places? Well actually, I do have a reason for this. You see, as luck would have it, one of the things that's been bothering me the most over the past few months has been the sharp decline in interest I've had in Pokémon and its current brand products. I've considered myself a Pokémon fan for around 11 years now, going all the way back to my introduction to the games and the TCG in 2010 as a third grade school student. Not once in those 11 years since have I felt so... just sad about the franchise as I do now. I can't quite wrap my head around why, but I think it comes from a combination of factors. Not only am I a sophomore in college at the time of typing this, with my entire childhood basically behind me, but the things we have access to now just don't feel the same.

This opinion of mine is especially true when we look into the countless Pokémon video games, and how the quality of these products only seems to be diminishing as the years go by. This isn't a particularly unpopular opinion, either. Heck, just look at how much everyone hated Sword & Shield and went on to be incredibly fearful that their precious Sinnoh region remakes would be ruined afterwards. Personally I didn't really have a preference for any of the games I'm talking about right now, but it did get me thinking about something.

I've been looking for a better place to talk about this on the Forums the past day or two, only to find no such thread anywhere I searched. That's why I decided to be the one to try and provide the outlet that I myself still need. I've designed this thread as more of a general discussion thread about any of the things in Pokémon, maybe your memories about the franchise even, that are just positive by nature more than anything. Stories about how Pokémon helped you overcome adversity, or maybe stories about how we've enjoyed something Pokémon-related while the people around us haven't. Things like that are what I'm looking for.

Who knows? Maybe you'll find someone in this discussion who needs that extra dose of happiness in life, and you'll be the lucky winner who can make that happen for them. I'd like to double-check with any of the moderators of OI before this thread goes too far, just to be sure that I'm not breaking any rules with making this thread. I went over their list again and I think we're safe here, but maybe I missed a detail or something. Other than that, there's nothing for me to say, really. I hope this thread can be of use to anyone who, much like myself, is in need of happiness regarding one of their favorite media franchises ever created.

 

[The Mind Electric]

It's completely natural to not always be interested in things, especially when your interest is a franchise that doesn't look like it's going in a great direction. If you find that your interest in Pokémon is waning, take a break and go play some other stuff. That's what I'm doing right now; I burned myself out on Pokémon by cramming like 6 playthroughs of games I haven't touched in years into under a year and now I need a break. When you feel like playing it again, play it again.

It's also important to remember that, if you're convinced that these new games aren't going to be any good, you always have the old games to return to. You can get into randomizers, nuzlockes, ROM hacks, and so on to get fresh experiences out of these old games if that's all you feel like playing. Pokémon doesn't have to end for you if you don't want to buy BD/SP or Legends.

Finally, remember that this is a video game franchise. It's ultimately meant to be fun. If you're trying to force yourself to be a fan of it or enjoy it when it doesn't hit the same way for you anymore, you're missing the point.

As for actual reasons to be optimistic about Pokémon, I think most of the issues people have with BD/SP are being blown out of proportion. I'm guilty of this myself, mostly because I enjoy being hyperbolic. Other than the mounting evidence that D/P rosters are coming back, which is really fucking stupid, it actually does look like they're fixing most of the games' major issues. The speed is better, you can use the Grand Underground to supplement D/P's encounter tables, TMs are back to being one-use but they're at least still farmable, and the EXP Share being impossible to turn off is a bummer but it's not the end of the world and it might help them fix that terrible level spike at the Pokémon League. I think these games will be fine. I haven't paid attention to Legends, so I don't know what's going on over there, but it seems to be doing better than BD/SP, so if you're open to the new gameplay it'll probably be worth a buy. I think Pokémon is going to be alright.

 

[Siggu]

The only thing that worries me about Pokémon is a potential success of Legends. I see a lot of Need for Speed Underground on it - a financial success, but catastrophic damage to the franchise's identity.

Apart from that... while not having as much fun with the recent entries as with the previous ones, I'm tolerant of the status of the series. That I'd like it to be better? Yes, sure, absolutely. But I can still have fun, even if not as much.

 

[bdt2002]

The only thing that worries me about Pokémon is a potential success of Legends. I see a lot of Need for Speed Underground on it - a financial success, but catastrophic damage to the franchise's identity.

Apart from that... while not having as much fun with the recent entries as with the previous ones, I'm tolerant of the status of the series. That I'd like it to be better? Yes, sure, absolutely. But I can still have fun, even if not as much.

Interesting comparison here for sure. From a timing perspective I can understand why Legends exists. Arceus is a big enough figure in Pokémon to where even a Mythical Pokémon admittedly deserved its own game, and the semi-open world nature of the game does feel like something a big anniversary title would try to do for the first time. The problem with Pokémon is that there's not really an identity for the franchise to protect anymore. Sure, Pokémon racks in way too much money for its own good, but ever since Gen 5 they haven't had a clue as to what they should do for the games that release after a generation debut game. Do they like sequels? Third versions? Remakes? The lack of consistency doesn't give the franchise much to work with in terms of being known for something, and Legends is only making this even more complicated by essentially being the first ever "prequel" of another main series game.

All of this being said, it takes a pretty horrible video game to single handedly shatter the reputation of a franchise as big as Pokémon. If Legends were to do well, they would possibly pursue that new path, which I get a lot of people don't like but things like the Gym challenge (I was glad to see Gyms go in Alola for this exact reason) are getting extremely stale by this point. Conversely, Legends failing would only bring more attention to the other kinds of games. In this way, I don't see Legends as a new take on the franchise, but rather as a sort of thought experiment.

It's completely natural to not always be interested in things, especially when your interest is a franchise that doesn't look like it's going in a great direction. If you find that your interest in Pokémon is waning, take a break and go play some other stuff. That's what I'm doing right now; I burned myself out on Pokémon by cramming like 6 playthroughs of games I haven't touched in years into under a year and now I need a break. When you feel like playing it again, play it again.

It's also important to remember that, if you're convinced that these new games aren't going to be any good, you always have the old games to return to. You can get into randomizers, nuzlockes, ROM hacks, and so on to get fresh experiences out of these old games if that's all you feel like playing. Pokémon doesn't have to end for you if you don't want to buy BD/SP or Legends.

Finally, remember that this is a video game franchise. It's ultimately meant to be fun. If you're trying to force yourself to be a fan of it or enjoy it when it doesn't hit the same way for you anymore, you're missing the point.

As for actual reasons to be optimistic about Pokémon, I think most of the issues people have with BD/SP are being blown out of proportion. I'm guilty of this myself, mostly because I enjoy being hyperbolic. Other than the mounting evidence that D/P rosters are coming back, which is really fucking stupid, it actually does look like they're fixing most of the games' major issues. The speed is better, you can use the Grand Underground to supplement D/P's encounter tables, TMs are back to being one-use but they're at least still farmable, and the EXP Share being impossible to turn off is a bummer but it's not the end of the world and it might help them fix that terrible level spike at the Pokémon League. I think these games will be fine. I haven't paid attention to Legends, so I don't know what's going on over there, but it seems to be doing better than BD/SP, so if you're open to the new gameplay it'll probably be worth a buy. I think Pokémon is going to be alright.

For the longest time, my biggest issue as a Pokémon fan hasn't been with the quality of the games themselves, but rather how I'm able to look at other people celebrating the parts of Pokémon that they cherished as children (or whenever they started, but usually children) and be proud about where they and the games themselves have gone from that point onward. This becomes especially notable when we start to realize that most older fans would prefer to play those games any day of the week, partially because of more and/or better content but also because of what I like to refer to as nostalgic bias.

Aaaaand then there's fans like me, who don't have the slightest clue where they'd belong in the fanbase. My childhood was all over the place, with my interest in the various parts of Pokémon all sprouting up at different time periods. Pokémon is one of those media fanbases that has fanbases inside the fanbase. The most prominent example would be a group of fans who all grew up with the same Generation(s), and I've always been extremely jealous that other fans have been able to use that to develop long-lasting friendships with other Pokémon fans. Instead, I've somehow gotten myself stuck outside in the cold, snowy weather with the front door locked shut while everyone else is sitting by the fireplace drinking hot cocoa on Christmas morning.

 

[The Mind Electric]

For the longest time, my biggest issue as a Pokémon fan hasn't been with the quality of the games themselves, but rather how I'm able to look at other people celebrating the parts of Pokémon that they cherished as children (or whenever they started, but usually children) and be proud about where they and the games themselves have gone from that point onward. This becomes especially notable when we start to realize that most older fans would prefer to play those games any day of the week, partially because of more and/or better content but also because of what I like to refer to as nostalgic bias.

Aaaaand then there's fans like me, who don't have the slightest clue where they'd belong in the fanbase. My childhood was all over the place, with my interest in the various parts of Pokémon all sprouting up at different time periods. Pokémon is one of those media fanbases that has fanbases inside the fanbase. The most prominent example would be a group of fans who all grew up with the same Generation(s), and I've always been extremely jealous that other fans have been able to use that to develop long-lasting friendships with other Pokémon fans. Instead, I've somehow gotten myself stuck outside in the cold, snowy weather with the front door locked shut while everyone else is sitting by the fireplace drinking hot cocoa on Christmas morning.

I don't think you necessarily have to have "grown up" with a specific part of Pokémon to connect with people who enjoy specific parts of the franchise like generations. When I played Pokémon as a young boy, I brainlessly flattened everything with my starter. It was fun, but that experience of playing Pokémon is almost completely disconnected from my experiences playing the games now with a functional brain that wants to build teams and use strategy and such. My entire time on this forum and Discords has been spent talking about parts of these games that I didn't grow up with, and that hasn't stopped me from feeling like I'm a part of this corner of the fanbase and forming connections with people. You don't need to have loved a specific Pokémon game as a kid to love it now and connect with others who feel the same way, you don't even need to "fit in" with any cliques of fans who like a specific generation or whatever. You can just like Pokémon and that's good enough. Hell, you can hate Pokémon and still participate in this forum if the BD/SP thread is any indication.

You should join the OI Discord, it's fun.

 

[MrHands]

I think the main series is going down the toilet, and the growing financial success of these trash kid friendly games is pushing it deeper down the hole. The game we want will probably never come from an official source.

But rom hacks are truly amazing if you want a good single player experience, and Showdown is by a ridiculous margin the best Pokémon multiplayer game ever.

So while Gamefreak and TPC is garbage your Pokémon adventure doesn't have to be.

 

[Ishiftyounot]

I think it's really easy to get lost in the negativity on the internet about Pokemon, because there does seem to be a lot of it in recent years and probably even before! Twitter, Reddit, forums in general and other spaces create their own anger and vitriol within themselves as people find a voice on those platforms and that can seem like the majority when it really isn't and feel like a tidal wave of frustration and negativity that overwhelms even the most optimistic fan. I don't even think they're wrong necessarily to feel that way, since the games have changed throughout the 25 year existence of the franchise as is to be expected, but sometimes those changes make no sense. Depends what you want out of the game I suppose. People have the right to be angry about changes and to vocalise that anger, so long as they aren't directing that anger at players who may disagree with them. That's my perspective on that.

Thing is, Pokemon is huge. You have the TCG, the mainline games, the side games (Mystery Dungeon, Snap, Pokken, Unite, etc.), Pokemon GO, the movies, the anime, the manga and probably a hell of a lot more! And even within those aspects you have additional factors - the mainline games have shiny hunting, competitive battling, story mode and optional side things sometimes like Contests in DP or PokeStar Studios in BW2; the TCG has both personal collection, random for-fun matches and also tournament play, as examples. There's a ton to enjoy in Pokemon and not every fan will focus on the same thing? I used to play Showdown and do competitive play (albeit not very well), whilst also playing the mainline games and side games for the story and maybe the odd bit of shiny hunting. I dated another Pokemon fan at that time who had never even played a mainline game, but was a hardcore TCG fan and Pokemon GO player - we were opposites but still equally Pokemon fans.

My point is that yes there's a ton of negativity surrounding BDSP, and it is not entirely unfounded. I myself am not particularly happy about not being able to turn off the Exp. Share (I like my team to be at even levels, and thanks to different experience groups my Slow exp. Pokemon like the pseudos or random ones like Gyarados need to be used more than, say, my starter, and this bugs me since I want everyone to be used equally) and I think the lack of Platinum Battle Frontier or even Pokemon accessibility is a major mistake. I'm optimistic about the new Underground in the hopes it can function the same as the Platinum Pokedex accessibility (I just want to use Electivire before the fifth gym without trading for one) and I think the new Contests, Pokemon following you in the overworld and HM removal are great decisions. It's a real mixed bag, but I remain excited for these games! Partly due to nostalgia, but even without that I like enough aspects of the Pokemon franchise that a trend in "mediocre" (but still highly enjoyable in my opinion) mainline games won't deter me from enjoying myself.

 

[bdt2002]

I don't think you necessarily have to have "grown up" with a specific part of Pokémon to connect with people who enjoy specific parts of the franchise like generations. When I played Pokémon as a young boy, I brainlessly flattened everything with my starter. It was fun, but that experience of playing Pokémon is almost completely disconnected from my experiences playing the games now with a functional brain that wants to build teams and use strategy and such. My entire time on this forum and Discords has been spent talking about parts of these games that I didn't grow up with, and that hasn't stopped me from feeling like I'm a part of this corner of the fanbase and forming connections with people. You don't need to have loved a specific Pokémon game as a kid to love it now and connect with others who feel the same way, you don't even need to "fit in" with any cliques of fans who like a specific generation or whatever. You can just like Pokémon and that's good enough. Hell, you can hate Pokémon and still participate in this forum if the BD/SP thread is any indication.

You should join the OI Discord, it's fun.

If someone could send me an invite in some form, I'd love to. I may not be as active as I am over here, but who knows? Just PM me if you need my information necessary to actually send me an invite.

I think the main series is going down the toilet, and the growing financial success of these trash kid friendly games is pushing it deeper down the hole. The game we want will probably never come from an official source.

But rom hacks are truly amazing if you want a good single player experience, and Showdown is by a ridiculous margin the best Pokémon multiplayer game ever.

So while Gamefreak and TPC is garbage your Pokémon adventure doesn't have to be.

This post right here does a good job at explaining another reason why I'm so much more fond of the spin-off games we grew up with yet don't get nearly enough attention. They're much more varied than the "catch and train monsters and battle other people" trope we've seen for 25 years now, and story wise, a few of them are just as prominent if not better than even the most popular main series titles. Between this and the whole thing I was talking about with not knowing my place as a Pokémon fan so to speak, why else would I be as much of a Ranger 3 fan? (And other accompanying games too.)

I think it's really easy to get lost in the negativity on the internet about Pokemon, because there does seem to be a lot of it in recent years and probably even before! Twitter, Reddit, forums in general and other spaces create their own anger and vitriol within themselves as people find a voice on those platforms and that can seem like the majority when it really isn't and feel like a tidal wave of frustration and negativity that overwhelms even the most optimistic fan. I don't even think they're wrong necessarily to feel that way, since the games have changed throughout the 25 year existence of the franchise as is to be expected, but sometimes those changes make no sense. Depends what you want out of the game I suppose. People have the right to be angry about changes and to vocalise that anger, so long as they aren't directing that anger at players who may disagree with them. That's my perspective on that.

Thing is, Pokemon is huge. You have the TCG, the mainline games, the side games (Mystery Dungeon, Snap, Pokken, Unite, etc.), Pokemon GO, the movies, the anime, the manga and probably a hell of a lot more! And even within those aspects you have additional factors - the mainline games have shiny hunting, competitive battling, story mode and optional side things sometimes like Contests in DP or PokeStar Studios in BW2; the TCG has both personal collection, random for-fun matches and also tournament play, as examples. There's a ton to enjoy in Pokemon and not every fan will focus on the same thing? I used to play Showdown and do competitive play (albeit not very well), whilst also playing the mainline games and side games for the story and maybe the odd bit of shiny hunting. I dated another Pokemon fan at that time who had never even played a mainline game, but was a hardcore TCG fan and Pokemon GO player - we were opposites but still equally Pokemon fans.

My point is that yes there's a ton of negativity surrounding BDSP, and it is not entirely unfounded. I myself am not particularly happy about not being able to turn off the Exp. Share (I like my team to be at even levels, and thanks to different experience groups my Slow exp. Pokemon like the pseudos or random ones like Gyarados need to be used more than, say, my starter, and this bugs me since I want everyone to be used equally) and I think the lack of Platinum Battle Frontier or even Pokemon accessibility is a major mistake. I'm optimistic about the new Underground in the hopes it can function the same as the Platinum Pokedex accessibility (I just want to use Electivire before the fifth gym without trading for one) and I think the new Contests, Pokemon following you in the overworld and HM removal are great decisions. It's a real mixed bag, but I remain excited for these games! Partly due to nostalgia, but even without that I like enough aspects of the Pokemon franchise that a trend in "mediocre" (but still highly enjoyable in my opinion) mainline games won't deter me from enjoying myself.

There is literally nothing this post that I could have said better myself. In fact, your post is so thought out that the only reason i even need to quote it is just so you don't feel left out. That's how good it is. Anything I could say in a reply has already been stated here.

 

[The Mind Electric]

If someone could send me an invite in some form, I'd love to. I may not be as active as I am over here, but who knows? Just PM me if you need my information necessary to actually send me an invite.

https://discord.gg/KjZuZ7j

It's in the pinned post with the rules and such.

 

[bdt2002]

https://discord.gg/KjZuZ7j

It's in the pinned post with the rules and such.

Sounds good to me. Thanks again!

 

[MrHands]

It says a lot that there are only 9 posts in this thread.

 

[The Mind Electric]

It says a lot that there are only 9 posts in this thread.

I mean, most of them are quite long.

 

[BlizzardHero]

It says a lot that there are only 9 posts in this thread.

Well it's more a symptom of the topic rather than anything noteworthy. I've almost certainly said this before, but most people have already made up their mind on the state of the franchise. If you've disliked the downturn in quality or are just simply tired, you're probably already out the door. If you don't care about the issues/the issues don't impact your enjoyment, then you're probably not actively reading about them. Whatever your viewpoint, there's not really anything more to be said that will magically alter your perception. Only people that are seeking out these discussions are fence sitters; and given that these issues have been ongoing for years, there aren't many of those left.

 

[adman2]

Sword and Shield can be made into good games in spite of Gamefreak's (lack of) effort if you try a "no Battle Items" solo challenge, preferably with a weaker Pokemon. Leveling up is easy with candies from raids, you can get most of the moves you need from TRs, and the Wild Area itself offers a large selection of monsters before the 1st Gym. Try to win with the lowest level you can get away with without needing too much luck. Even a Team Yell battle can be hard if you're using Sinistea or something.


Thoughts on Pokemon Alternatives:


Consider playing Nexomon Extinction if you haven't already. It keeps the fast pace of the older Pokemon games and forces you to use your entire team. Tyrants (i.e. legendaries) are proper boss fights too. As for the story, the antagonists have good motivations, and there's one twist later in the story that Pokemon would never try. Enemy levels are increased based on where you are in the story, and you can visit many locations before you're supposed to if you want to look for Nexomon.


Monster Sanctuary might still be cheap on the Switch Eshop, but I haven't played that. Stay away from Digimon Story Cyber Sleuth because the characters never shut up and the enemy stats are poorly balanced (too easy on Normal, too much grinding on Hard). I'm convinced Poke Pelago from Sun and Moon was plagiarized from its equivalent in Cyber Sleuth.

 

[Siggu]

Sword and Shield can be made into good games in spite of Gamefreak's (lack of) effort if you try a "no Battle Items" solo challenge, preferably with a weaker Pokemon.

That kind of makes your suggestion sound like a game has to be challenging to be good.

 

[bdt2002]

Well it's more a symptom of the topic rather than anything noteworthy. I've almost certainly said this before, but most people have already made up their mind on the state of the franchise. If you've disliked the downturn in quality or are just simply tired, you're probably already out the door. If you don't care about the issues/the issues don't impact your enjoyment, then you're probably not actively reading about them. Whatever your viewpoint, there's not really anything more to be said that will magically alter your perception. Only people that are seeking out these discussions are fence sitters; and given that these issues have been ongoing for years, there aren't many of those left.

This summarizes the whole issue better than I could. Fans like myself are always trying to make arguments for why something in the games may or may not be okay, and many of the issues that recent Pokémon games in the eighth generation of hardware (3DS/Switch era) have come from crappy developer decisions. When I made this thread, I honestly went into it expecting not to get a lot of feedback- not because the fanbase in inherently bad or anything, but because most people like this have moved onto other things.

At this point, the question shifts more towards “how many second chances are we willing to give these developers?”

 

[BlizzardHero]

At this point, the question shifts more towards “how many second chances are we willing to give these developers?

I might be too open minded, but I'm have the mindset of absolute rejection - but still a strong willingness to readily forgive. This is a stance that I share about many companies, and one I like to promote.

Lots of companies have declined in the past decade. A strong uptick anti-consumer practices and the lack of collective consumer willpower to resist them has only cemented this decline. In this, GF (and even more so, Nintendo) is no different. Striping out content to be resold later, subscription based services to fleece customers, an increasingly rushed work schedule that harms developers and results in subpar work - this description works for just about every large-ish development company.

But these are all corporate decisions. Decisions pushed because of pure greed, and not beacuse of another systemic issue (though such issues do happen: Blizzard and their litany of sexual harassment suits comes to mind). These are decisions that can be reversed through a change in corporate culture, and the willingness therein. If a company does something so morally abhorrent that it is inexorably glued to their identity, then second chances are out of the question. However, these are business decisions and are still reversible - even if the trust is not so easily repaired.

If GF shows a willingness to improve, no matter how long it takes, then trepid forgiveness is in order - for if not, what motivation would GF have to change? Goodness should always be met in kind, no matter the context. Are they likely to change? Probably not. But is it important to keep an open mind? Absolutely.

That being said, if you don't want to cut Pokemon out of your life entirely, there are ways to resist. Used games, for example, help to undercut company profits beacuse they will not see that money (and are often cheaper). Many publishing/development companies have continually pushed the idea that used games are dirty, prone to breaking, and not worth the money. Or they've tried to make it so used games become impossible - digital only games, locally stored memory, or one-time use codes. Fortunately, these efforts have largely failed. Used games are a great way to keep you in the community, without you having to support their practices. I just bought a used copy of Sword, so I'll be able to keep participating on Smogon w/o having to give GF more money than is absolutely necessary. Similarly, sailing the high seas is an option that accomplishes the same thing - but I cannot recommend you do so *wink wink*.

Of course, all this is inconsequential: the answer to your question is ultimately a personal one. You (and everyone else) should do what you most feel comfortable with. Granted, collective barging is always desirable, but quite difficult to attain. If you've decided that you cannot donate any more of your thought time, then that's fine. If you don't find these issues to be troublesome, then it's fine to not change your habits. If you'd like to still keep tabs, and patiently wait for things to hopefully change, then I'll skootch a bit over on the park bench so you can wait with me. I'll bring the Vanillite, though they might scream a bit if you try and eat them.

 

[RocketSurgery]

While GF certainly makes some baffling decisions (e.g., no pvp timer control, exp share toggles, etc), I don't think this is all on the developers. I think a lot of (the vocal) Pokemon fans have developed some rather unrealistic expectations (both in terms of what they want/expect in a game and in terms of the effort and resources it actually takes to make a game), and moreover these expectations are not universally shared so no matter what GF does there is always going to be a segment of the fanbase that complains.

I think this mildly edited Chris Rock bit conveys the situation well and with only a little bit of hyperbole:

You can’t make a Pokemon fan happy. It’s impossible. I’ve never met a happy Pokemon fan in my life. Pokemon fans are always complaining about something. Pokemon fans like to complain, they like fucking complaining. They love it. No matter what GF does, they’ll be mad. You can give a Pokemon fan a diamond and pearl remake with a battle frontier, they’ll still complain. “Why didn't GF expand the battle frontier into a whole second region? I played this game when I was a kid, why are they charging me $60 if they're not gonna make a new region and remove team preview and RNG as a QoL improvement while they're at it, GF is so fucking greedy.” No matter what GF does, Pokemon fans are mad at GF. If they make another game based on their standard formula, “Why you don't they ever innovate? It's the same fucking game every 3 years. It's always the same. I hate this shit.” If they try to innovate and make a game with a new style, “Why are they changing shit? Just give stick to the formula but give me PS6 graphics on a Switch and make it harder. I hate this shit.” If they make harder. “Fuck GF. I don't have time to grind just so I can beat fucking Roark. I hate this shit.” If GF doesn't make it hard enough, “These motherfuckers. Why didn't they put something in the game to force me to use other Pokemon to prevent me from overleveling my Chimchar and steamrolling everything? Fuck this shit." “Why doesn't GF just hire me to make the perfect Pokemon game with real time battles and mandatory Nuzlockeing and no legendaries or mythicals and my self-insert OC as champion with his ace, a shiny Mega Dunsparce with Wonder Guard? I hate this shit. I can’t take it.”

 

[BlizzardHero]

While GF certainly makes some baffling decisions (e.g., no pvp timer control, exp share toggles, etc), I don't think this is all on the developers. I think a lot of (the vocal) Pokemon fans have developed some rather unrealistic expectations (both in terms of what they want/expect in a game and in terms of the effort and resources it actually takes to make a game), and moreover these expectations are not universally shared so no matter what GF does there is always going to be a segment of the fanbase that complains.

While I agree to an extent, I'd caution against pigeonholing complaints. While some may find one or more of these issues to be without merit, that does not mean that they aren't real for those who do. Issues are still worth debating and/or contending with, beacuse once you stop questioning, you're trapped in a mindset that doesn't allow you to be wrong.

It's a common issue for developers and anyone who creates. Your fans are your own worst enemy - they'll request and demand things that you, the creator, know will negatively impact your work. You are the progenitor, therefore you must know what's best. However, once you start automatically tagging criticism as invalid, it's easy to shift from "some of it is wrong" to "all of it is wrong". Maybe it'll work out, but most of the time nothing good happens. Ultimately, critique (and contending with it) is always the healthier choice, even if it doesn't feel like it. The best people are the ones who are willing to learn and grow.

 

[Samtendo09]

I won’t sugercoat that fans aren’t really better than the developers when it comes to making good Pokémon games.

We do see fan games and rom hacks with great applause such as Pokémon Radical Red and Pokémon Insurgance, but even those games have glaring flaws such as being too unfriendly to casual players, a flaw Radical Red did tried to rectify by offering an Easy Mode which did worked to an extent, and worsened game balance or a lack of effort to tighten the power creep / power gap.

I know making every fully evolved Pokémon viable is out of question, but here’s an emphasis; tighten the power creep / power gap, as in giving at least major buffs to some of the weakest / most unreliable Pokémon and toning down toxic-level of OP Pokémon by either toning down their ridiculously high strengths - Legendary Pokémon and Ultra Beasts are left untouched unless they happened to be stupidly overpowered even among them.

Also don’t be afraid of making at least a few new fan evolutions for low BST Pokémon that are either single-stage or a first stage evolution, or if you have Megas in your game, new Megas for low BST second evolution stage (Beautifly + Dustox) or high BST Pokémon that are somehow unviable compared to others with similarly high BST (Electivire, Luxray, Exeggutor, Shiftry).

Last but not least, no fan games I know off tried to make reasonable rebalancing of the type chart. Giving Ice one new resistance and then a new STAB gimmick exclusive to them, and not repeating with “slow and no coverage or fast master of none Ice” will be an example.

It is not an easy task but it will allow at least slightly more variety for in-game teams. The fans aren’t always right after all, and neither the official developers or the corporates.

 

[Siggu]

I won’t sugercoat that fans aren’t really better than the developers when it comes to making good Pokémon games.

We do see fan games and rom hacks with great applause such as Pokémon Radical Red and Pokémon Insurgance, but even those games have glaring flaws such as being too unfriendly to casual players, a flaw Radical Red did tried to rectify by offering an Easy Mode which did worked to an extent, and worsened game balance or a lack of effort to tighten the power creep / power gap.

I know making every fully evolved Pokémon viable is out of question, but here’s an emphasis; tighten the power creep / power gap, as in giving at least major buffs to some of the weakest / most unreliable Pokémon and toning down toxic-level of OP Pokémon by either toning down their ridiculously high strengths - Legendary Pokémon and Ultra Beasts are left untouched unless they happened to be stupidly overpowered even among them.

Also don’t be afraid of making at least a few new fan evolutions for low BST Pokémon that are either single-stage or a first stage evolution, or if you have Megas in your game, new Megas for low BST second evolution stage (Beautifly + Dustox) or high BST Pokémon that are somehow unviable compared to others with similarly high BST (Electivire, Luxray, Exeggutor, Shiftry).

Last but not least, no fan games I know off tried to make reasonable rebalancing of the type chart. Giving Ice one new resistance and then a new STAB gimmick exclusive to them, and not repeating with “slow and no coverage or fast master of none Ice” will be an example.

It is not an easy task but it will allow at least slightly more variety for in-game teams. The fans aren’t always right after all, and neither the official developers or the corporates.

Honestly, whenever I see a fangame trying to "fix" the official game's flaws... it often comes to me as worse than if they had left it unchanged. Whether it's things like the type chart, attempting to buff the weaker mons, or even creating difficulty settings, it gives me impression that it's just as flawed as before, but with a different presentation.

Instead, I think fangames would be better off by experimenting at things that are just expected to not happen in an official game.

Something that has been going around my mind recently would be giving your player character a Trainer Background. The background would give the player character a set of traits that would give them an affinity for certain playstyles, and make other ones more difficult to achieve.

Say, something like this, if we made it like Trainer Classes:

- A "Normal" Trainer would be the same as the vanilla experience.
- A Bug Catcher would get significantly higher experience, EV, friendship and Catch Rate boosts for Bug-Type Pokémon, but significantly less of the same for non Bug-Type Pokémon. Similar traits could be given to other forced monotype classes.
- A Beauty would boost Contest stats much faster, but experience and EV growth rates would be lower.
- A Pokémon Breeder could get guaranteed IVs and have increased experience, friendship and EV rates for Pokémon that have hatched from an Egg, but have an experience and EV rate penalty for Pokémon obtained from any source other than breeding.
- Fishermen could get significantly higher Catch Rates when using a rod, while also gaining access to the entire fishing table regardless of the Rod they use (say, they can get any hookable Pokémon from an Old Rod instead of just Magikarp), and significantly reduced Catch Rates for anything else.
- Rockers could have all their Pokémon deal extra damage when using sound moves (as if they had Punk Rock), but they'd deal reduced damage if they don't know any sound move.

And I could keep going but that'd be straying too close to wishlisting.

 

[bdt2002]

Honestly, whenever I see a fangame trying to "fix" the official game's flaws... it often comes to me as worse than if they had left it unchanged. Whether it's things like the type chart, attempting to buff the weaker mons, or even creating difficulty settings, it gives me impression that it's just as flawed as before, but with a different presentation.

Instead, I think fangames would be better off by experimenting at things that are just expected to not happen in an official game.

Something that has been going around my mind recently would be giving your player character a Trainer Background. The background would give the player character a set of traits that would give them an affinity for certain playstyles, and make other ones more difficult to achieve.

Say, something like this, if we made it like Trainer Classes:

- A "Normal" Trainer would be the same as the vanilla experience.
- A Bug Catcher would get significantly higher experience, EV, friendship and Catch Rate boosts for Bug-Type Pokémon, but significantly less of the same for non Bug-Type Pokémon. Similar traits could be given to other forced monotype classes.
- A Beauty would boost Contest stats much faster, but experience and EV growth rates would be lower.
- A Pokémon Breeder could get guaranteed IVs and have increased experience, friendship and EV rates for Pokémon that have hatched from an Egg, but have an experience and EV rate penalty for Pokémon obtained from any source other than breeding.
- Fishermen could get significantly higher Catch Rates when using a rod, while also gaining access to the entire fishing table regardless of the Rod they use (say, they can get any hookable Pokémon from an Old Rod instead of just Magikarp), and significantly reduced Catch Rates for anything else.
- Rockers could have all their Pokémon deal extra damage when using sound moves (as if they had Punk Rock), but they'd deal reduced damage if they don't know any sound move.

And I could keep going but that'd be straying too close to wishlisting.

Ideas like this make for fantastic thread ideas. This is just my opinion, but this is one of the very few cases where I'd view OI's rules against wishlisting as a detriment to the topic. Thankfully, this would be fixed by someone out there making a separate forum for any of the wishlisting topics. The closest I've found to this is the "Create a Pokémon" projects going on elsewhere, but as far as the "Casual Play" subcategory of forums goes, we actually don't have something like this yet, as far as I'm concerned.

Now getting back to the thread itself:

I won’t sugercoat that fans aren’t really better than the developers when it comes to making good Pokémon games.

We do see fan games and rom hacks with great applause such as Pokémon Radical Red and Pokémon Insurgance, but even those games have glaring flaws such as being too unfriendly to casual players, a flaw Radical Red did tried to rectify by offering an Easy Mode which did worked to an extent, and worsened game balance or a lack of effort to tighten the power creep / power gap.

I know making every fully evolved Pokémon viable is out of question, but here’s an emphasis; tighten the power creep / power gap, as in giving at least major buffs to some of the weakest / most unreliable Pokémon and toning down toxic-level of OP Pokémon by either toning down their ridiculously high strengths - Legendary Pokémon and Ultra Beasts are left untouched unless they happened to be stupidly overpowered even among them.

Also don’t be afraid of making at least a few new fan evolutions for low BST Pokémon that are either single-stage or a first stage evolution, or if you have Megas in your game, new Megas for low BST second evolution stage (Beautifly + Dustox) or high BST Pokémon that are somehow unviable compared to others with similarly high BST (Electivire, Luxray, Exeggutor, Shiftry).

Last but not least, no fan games I know off tried to make reasonable rebalancing of the type chart. Giving Ice one new resistance and then a new STAB gimmick exclusive to them, and not repeating with “slow and no coverage or fast master of none Ice” will be an example.

It is not an easy task but it will allow at least slightly more variety for in-game teams. The fans aren’t always right after all, and neither the official developers or the corporates.

This post makes a lot of good points, the main one being that fan creations tend to me more for the hardcore fans who have access to them relative to official Pokémon media. Whether we want to admit it or not, Game Freak (and the spin-off creators, but the discussion seems to primarily be about the main series so far) has a lot of experience making video games in general. They may not always turn out to be how each of us individually would want, but when you're given the ruthless task of trying to please a fanbase THIS large, sacrifices have to be made at some points. Many have suggested the idea that they just hire more people, which Pokémon as a franchise definitely has the budget for at this point. Bringing in newer workers keeps the products they produce fresh, and is probably the fanbases's best shot at getting some of the ideas by long-time fans implemented into the franchise in the future.

 

[Samtendo09]

Honestly, whenever I see a fangame trying to "fix" the official game's flaws... it often comes to me as worse than if they had left it unchanged. Whether it's things like the type chart, attempting to buff the weaker mons, or even creating difficulty settings, it gives me impression that it's just as flawed as before, but with a different presentation.

Instead, I think fangames would be better off by experimenting at things that are just expected to not happen in an official game.

Something that has been going around my mind recently would be giving your player character a Trainer Background. The background would give the player character a set of traits that would give them an affinity for certain playstyles, and make other ones more difficult to achieve.

Say, something like this, if we made it like Trainer Classes:

- A "Normal" Trainer would be the same as the vanilla experience.
- A Bug Catcher would get significantly higher experience, EV, friendship and Catch Rate boosts for Bug-Type Pokémon, but significantly less of the same for non Bug-Type Pokémon. Similar traits could be given to other forced monotype classes.
- A Beauty would boost Contest stats much faster, but experience and EV growth rates would be lower.
- A Pokémon Breeder could get guaranteed IVs and have increased experience, friendship and EV rates for Pokémon that have hatched from an Egg, but have an experience and EV rate penalty for Pokémon obtained from any source other than breeding.
- Fishermen could get significantly higher Catch Rates when using a rod, while also gaining access to the entire fishing table regardless of the Rod they use (say, they can get any hookable Pokémon from an Old Rod instead of just Magikarp), and significantly reduced Catch Rates for anything else.
- Rockers could have all their Pokémon deal extra damage when using sound moves (as if they had Punk Rock), but they'd deal reduced damage if they don't know any sound move.

And I could keep going but that'd be straying too close to wishlisting.

That’s more to do with execution than the concept of trying to. Fixes have a chance of backfiring as much as working as intended, but so do new ideas. After all, as exciting were the reveal of Mega Evolution, Z-Moves and, although not so much in retrospect, Dynamax were, they either worsened the power creep or ultimately make the metagame more stale much faster rather than attempting to diversify it. Regardless, it is a good idea to stay cautiously optimistic (it’s in the thread name too) when it comes to fangames, because some, if not most fan creators are willing to listen to critiques and try to figure out what worked and what didn’t.

I am not exactly a biggest fan with Trainer Background concepts that will have major effect in battles, and I think it should just focus to give appropriate quality of life mechanics rather than giving the player a boost on top of possible boosted EXP, competant movesets and access of held items and even super mechanics if most do not have access to them. Even the most casual players will know how held items works. The Trainer Classes other than Rocker are good examples to reduce tediousness with the player making sure to choose wisely if it cannot be changed until at least the post-game.

Ideas like this make for fantastic thread ideas. This is just my opinion, but this is one of the very few cases where I'd view OI's rules against wishlisting as a detriment to the topic. Thankfully, this would be fixed by someone out there making a separate forum for any of the wishlisting topics. The closest I've found to this is the "Create a Pokémon" projects going on elsewhere, but as far as the "Casual Play" subcategory of forums goes, we actually don't have something like this yet, as far as I'm concerned.

Now getting back to the thread itself:

This post makes a lot of good points, the main one being that fan creations tend to me more for the hardcore fans who have access to them relative to official Pokémon media. Whether we want to admit it or not, Game Freak (and the spin-off creators, but the discussion seems to primarily be about the main series so far) has a lot of experience making video games in general. They may not always turn out to be how each of us individually would want, but when you're given the ruthless task of trying to please a fanbase THIS large, sacrifices have to be made at some points. Many have suggested the idea that they just hire more people, which Pokémon as a franchise definitely has the budget for at this point. Bringing in newer workers keeps the products they produce fresh, and is probably the fanbases's best shot at getting some of the ideas by long-time fans implemented into the franchise in the future.

Japan isn’t known to hire a lot of new bloods for their companies, so that doesn’t sounds likely. The dissonance between it and the rest of the world when it comes to getting with the time is very apparant, and same could be said with the USA vs rest of the world in terms of anything. That said, whenever new bloods are allowed, it’s not guaranteed it will improve future projects, but it will certainly allows new ideas to run more smoothly if, and only if, they think it through during developments.

 

[bdt2002]

That’s more to do with execution than the concept of trying to. Fixes have a chance of backfiring as much as working as intended, but so do new ideas. After all, as exciting were the reveal of Mega Evolution, Z-Moves and, although not so much in retrospect, Dynamax were, they either worsened the power creep or ultimately make the metagame more stale much faster rather than attempting to diversify it. Regardless, it is a good idea to stay cautiously optimistic (it’s in the thread name too) when it comes to fangames, because some, if not most fan creators are willing to listen to critiques and try to figure out what worked and what didn’t.

I am not exactly a biggest fan with Trainer Background concepts that will have major effect in battles, and I think it should just focus to give appropriate quality of life mechanics rather than giving the player a boost on top of possible boosted EXP, competant movesets and access of held items and even super mechanics if most do not have access to them. Even the most casual players will know how held items works. The Trainer Classes other than Rocker are good examples to reduce tediousness with the player making sure to choose wisely if it cannot be changed until at least the post-game.


Japan isn’t known to hire a lot of new bloods for their companies, so that doesn’t sounds likely. The dissonance between it and the rest of the world when it comes to getting with the time is very apparant, and same could be said with the USA vs rest of the world in terms of anything. That said, whenever new bloods are allowed, it’s not guaranteed it will improve future projects, but it will certainly allows new ideas to run more smoothly if, and only if, they think it through during developments.

Replying to each section of your post individually here.

Trainer backgrounds & game balance: Pokémon games tend to offer some flexibility for the player's experience, but those options often times don't open up until later parts of the adventure. Several RPGs have different classes and backgrounds that the player can pick from at the start of the game. Mono-type runs are an especially noteworthy example of this, with types like Ice frequently being locked until much later on, Ghost and Dragon having limited options, et cetera. I agree with you that background concepts wouldn't need to be something that too drastically alters gameplay, but some added customization would be nice. As for game balance... here's my hot take of the day. Mega Evolutions needed to go, and here's why. Z-Moves and to a lesser extent Dynamax/G-Max were more universally available features among species of Pokémon that freshened up gameplay without providing extra bias towards specific species. Mega Evolution on the other hand, benefitted a select pool of Pokémon and changed the metagame around them. In more recent years, the game developers have been putting more and more emphasis on quality-of-life changes for the competitive playerbase, and I feel like Mega Evolution actually did the opposite. What good is giving Megas to Pokémon that needed buffs if Megas of Pokémon who didn't need that much help were going to shred the metagame in half anyway? How is something like a Mega Audino supposed to compete in the lands full of Mega Kangaskhan, for example? (Edit: Kangaskhan may not have been the best example, but I would still like to acknowledge the Megas whose buffs were initially too large.)

Hiring new employees: I feel like this would be an opportunity for the localized versions of Pokémon games to have more of an identity relative to each other. I get that many fans aren't in favor of the idea of features being added or removed in various localizations, such as the whole thing with the Game Corner in Gen 4, but I also can't feasibly see how hiring more employees to specific region's branch (for example, Japan wouldn't do many hires but a place like the U.S. could) doesn't provide more opportunity for those specific employees to add regionally exclusive features that they themselves created. Like you said, new ideas like these have to be thought through during development, and whether or not future products would be improved by this change remains to be seen until they actually take a shot at it a couple times.

 

[lucariomaster2]

If there's one thing the internet LOVES, it's getting angry, and there are few ways this can be seen more clearly than the current attitude towards not just Pokemon, but also towards anyone who likes it. And yet, I genuinely enjoyed both Sword and Brilliant Diamond, and I'm not ashamed to admit it.

For me, Pokemon is such a comfy franchise. They're the games I play when I'm feeling overwhelmed and need to relax, and they work for that. They're also incredibly in-depth and complex, and I can play them in a completely different way when I want to engage my brain. The thing is, there are so many ways to play Pokemon. I started with playing casually, just like everyone else; then I got into the battle facilities for a bit, then Nuzlockes, and eventually playing competitively. After that I got really into breeding and RNGing for awhile and started a trade thread here on Smogon (shameless plug), before taking a bit of time off from the series between gens 7 and 8. After a few months of trying to cut Pokemon out of my life completely, though, I realized how much I actually missed it, and that despite everything it still brought me so much joy.

I guess the thing I'm trying to say is that if you've truly grown tired of the franchise, that's totally fine, and you shouldn't pressure yourself to stick around. But if you still like it, you also shouldn't feel pressured to dislike it just because of other people's opinions.