Other Poll: Steel - Nerfed or Buffed?

[dkkc19]

Of course Normal is always outclassed, but it's still not that bad (although Fighting / Flying Braviary would be awesome). A Fire-Flying Staraptor gains coverage on Steel, but lose to Rotom-W and even M-Scizor still takes a lot from Scarfed Brave Bird. Sure, you beat Aegislash, M-Mawile, Ferrothorn and Skarmory, but that's a trade-off I can accept, given how annoying Rotom can be. And Normal brings you a reliable STAB with no recoil, which is nice.
And with SR on, it's definitely going to kill itself even faster. I think that a Flare Blitz on Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn kills you.

I agree Normal is not great, but it still provides a niche to Staraptor. I'm unsure whether he would get it if he was something else (except Fighting).

Normal Staraptor can hit te with Close Combat, bit the thing is, with Reckless and STAB, Flare Blits could be unstoppable. I think Staraptor (And Swellow) are one of the few who appreciate their Normal typing and only for STAB Double Edge/Facade.

Normal is a good type offensively and not a bad type offensively. Normal flying gets neutral damage from fighting but it can't appreciate other stabs. Noctowl could be a slightly better Pokemon if it was Normal Psychic for example.

 

[midend]

The biggest differences between dark and ghost is more things resist dark than ghost. Yes, there's an immunity, but let's be honest. Few people run normals and with good reason.

As to pyroar, it still wouldn't have been a perfect counter unless it got something to cover that fighting weakness. I guess you could run chople on it... (Sacred sword from aegislash after all.)

As to pseudo legendary pokemon, they do seem to be devoted to dragons (mostly), and with the nerfs dragons got this gen, that's fine. Garchomp/Haxorus/Salamence/etc are solid threats but rather easy to overwhelm if you're prepared for threats like them.

Shoot, I beat a dragonite with Floatzel once. It was fun to do too xD

We've already seen just how amazing a legendary ghost is like in Giratina, but even if there's no 'uber ghosts' if they continue making potent ghost pokemon like Aegislash then we will see a major focus on the ghost type and with good reason. They're solid defensively (They're no steel type but immune to fighting and normal is a nice thing to have, not to mention the resists), and excellent in offense.

...But I can't argue about knock off. That move is everywhere now.

But, in all seriousness, Dark still has the same number of things resisting it while ghost has gotten one less thing that resists it. (even if that's no longer steel)

If you look at a gen 5 battle and a gen 6 battle, you'll notice a somewhat worrying change.

In gen 5, you could actually take a couple shadow balls if you had a steel type. Now, ghosts are able to 1-2 HKO most teams, and that's something I find that needs approached.

Basically, I get that Steel needed to have some balancing done. I may not like it since it is my favorite type, but I understand. However, something other than dark needed to have the ghost resist just to 1: give stall more viability 2: actually have a chance to counter a ghost sweep 3: not force you to use either a dark or normal type just to deal with a ghost (and aegislash takes out the resist/immunities with aplomb anyway)

With the absurdity of ghost pokemon becoming so spammable the dark type pursuit is actually on the rise, becoming a staple on every ttar set

 

[Full_Korbe]

Normal is a good type offensively and not a bad type offensively. Normal flying gets neutral damage from fighting but it can't appreciate other stabs. Noctowl could be a slightly better Pokemon if it was Normal Psychic for example.

Well, Meloetta is not great neither :D
But I agree with most of what you said.

With the absurdity of ghost pokemon becoming so spammable the dark type pursuit is actually on the rise, becoming a staple on every ttar set

But Pursuit has to be STABed to be really effective (or from Technician or Aegislash... well, you get it). And Dark is weak to Fighting... Which is the main coverage alongside Ghost. Aside of Mandibuzz, there is no bulky Dark type who is not weak to Focus Blast / Sacred Sword, and it really hinders TTar. And if there is no Fighting coverage, you can be sure it's SubWoW Gengar or King's Shield Aegislash. Honestly, I'm just too afraid to bring TTar on Aegislash / Gengar.
When Steel resisted Ghost, we had a lot of Pokemon who resisted Ghost while being able to take Focus Blast. Scizor, Skarmory, and Jirachi was bulky enough to do the job. Now, Scizor takes way too much from Shadow Ball, Metagross is just out of the metagame, and Absol just can't switch-in (2KOed by Shadow Ball from Aegis 252+).
That's why Ghost-spam is so hard to deal with. We have the same problem than Dragon-spam last gen, except with fewer potent Pokemon (and arguably less powerful), but harder to take down.

 

[midend]

Well, Meloetta is not great neither :D
But I agree with most of what you said.


But Pursuit has to be STABed to be really effective (or from Technician or Aegislash... well, you get it). And Dark is weak to Fighting... Which is the main coverage alongside Ghost. Aside of Mandibuzz, there is no bulky Dark type who is not weak to Focus Blast / Sacred Sword, and it really hinders TTar. And if there is no Fighting coverage, you can be sure it's SubWoW Gengar or King's Shield Aegislash. Honestly, I'm just too afraid to bring TTar on Aegislash / Gengar.
When Steel resisted Ghost, we had a lot of Pokemon who resisted Ghost while being able to take Focus Blast. Scizor, Skarmory, and Jirachi was bulky enough to do the job. Now, Scizor takes way too much from Shadow Ball, Metagross is just out of the metagame, and Absol just can't switch-in (2KOed by Shadow Ball from Aegis 252+).
That's why Ghost-spam is so hard to deal with. We have the same problem than Dragon-spam last gen, except with fewer potent Pokemon (and arguably less powerful), but harder to take down.

Aegislash is easily manhandled by alot of things. Oh and i would switch ttar into gengar, focus blast is but 70% accuracy - i will risk that, and the reward is actually greater than the risk either way.

Edit: gengar usually spams shadow ball, so yea ttar is pretty safe in 90% of cases since scarfgar seems to still be a thing

 

[Full_Korbe]

As far as I know, Gengar will go for Sub first, and can Focus Blast or just run. Of course, it doesn't apply to the Scarf, but I didn't know it was still used.
Aegis has 3/4 different sets with completely different counters. Having a spammy STAB helps : the only Pokemon able to take a Shadow Ball reliably are either Toxic-weak (Mandibuzz, Rotom-W SpDef, Goodra), the blobs (destroyed by physical sets) or TTar / Bisharp who will not enjoy a Sacred Sword / Iron Head / King's Shield. Or it's M-Venusaur.
I'm not saying that Aegis a unstoppable bringer of doom, because it's wrong, but with a different STAB, he wouldn't be so dangerous. Switch-in to Ghost threats exist, true, but are predictable and it's easy to take advantage of it. You rarely carry more than 1 Ghost resist in a team.

 

[DGpegasus]

To be honest. Steel types deserved this nerf. Heck, steel got more nerfed than dragon did for a reason. They were and probably still are the best defensive typing in the game.

 

[Deleted User 220884]

defensive steels pretty much get 2ko by dark and ghost moves.

 

[Durant]

For me it's pretty easy:
Defensive steel types got nerfed: Losing the resistance to dark and ghost is pretty bad and pokemon steel types should otherwise be able to wall are now fearing a 2 hit KO from a dark or ghost move. Most defensive steel types don't even care about better steel STAB as they still don't use steel attacks anyway.
Offensive steel types got buffed: Steel STAB isn't as bad as it once was and now finally steel can be used as STAB or even covarage without being laughable. Also Scizor can bullet punch more bitches.

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

Steel didn't really improve much offensively tbh, it hits Clefable, Sylveon and Togekiss (lol) super effectively and isn't resisted by Azumarill or Mawile anymore and that's about it for OU.

 

[BlazeTemplar]

Aegislash is easily manhandled by alot of things. Oh and i would switch ttar into gengar, focus blast is but 70% accuracy - i will risk that, and the reward is actually greater than the risk either way.

Edit: gengar usually spams shadow ball, so yea ttar is pretty safe in 90% of cases since scarfgar seems to still be a thing

Well, if it's scarfed and locked into shadow ball, that's not such a problem but a set running a 'hidden' boosting item (such as expert belt or similar) Will Kill non assualt/non mega T-tar with a combo of Focus Blast and Shadow Ball. (and m t-tar still loses about 90% of its hp to a focus blast)

Timid Expert Belt Gengar
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 43-51 (10.6 - 12.6%) -- possible 8HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 418-494 (103.4 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Non boosting Timid Gengar:
252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 348-412 (86.1 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 43-51 (10.6 - 12.6%) -- possible 8HKO
At minimum a combination of shadow ball and focus blast will do 96.7% HP damage against T-tar.

If you want to swap a t-tar in I'd only choose a bulkier one that has the ability to tank the focus blast. (This is why gar oft' ran HP fire back in gen 5, because Zor was a great hard counter to it otherwise. If you had HP fire you'd likely be able to escape safely, or OHKO zor, depending on if they knew you ran HP fire and how high your HP was.)

...I suppose a dark/fairy type would be a fairly good answer to a lot of the problems that gen 6 potentially birthed.

Paired with a steel type it would have good defensive/offensive synergy. Something to think about anyway.

But, the fact that we have to discuss this topic does imply that yes, steel got a very hefty nerf.

 

[Rotosect]

Offensive steel types got buffed: Steel STAB isn't as bad as it once was and now finally steel can be used as STAB or even covarage without being laughable. Also Scizor can bullet punch more bitches.

Offensively Steel is still mediocre and should never be used without STAB except for very specific reasons (like pokemon that have Bullet Punch as their only form of priority). The things that had to run a steel type (re: Salamence and Hydreigon) move did so because they were desperate for coverage against fairies. Guess what happened to them?

 

[Durant]

Offensively Steel is still mediocre and should never be used without STAB except for very specific reasons (like pokemon that have Bullet Punch as their only form of priority). The things that had to run a steel type (re: Salamence and Hydreigon) move did so because they were desperate for coverage against fairies. Guess what happened to them?

Yeah steel type coverage is still pretty shitty but at least steel STAB is now usable.

 

[Evilfaic]

Nerfed for sure. Stuff like Jirachi and Metagross hate this especially. Other bulky Steels like Skarm are easier to hit. Offensively, Steel isn't good. Sure it's slightly better with Iron Head/Bullet Punch being the most common Steel attacks, and they're physical, so they can hit Fairies, which are mostly Specially Defensive, very hard. However, this doesn't outweigh the nerf.

Also with Steel resisting Dark and Ghost, Aegislash would've had a field day. No one wants that.

 

[farmer Potato]

Though I voted for nerfed, it really depends on the individual Steel type.

One might consider Jirachi and Metagross, undeniably crushed by new weaknesses to the extremely rampant Dark and Ghost types. They gained few benefits in being able to check several new Pokemon (counter in some cases)

If Aegislash had been last generation, without its Dark and Ghost weaknesses, it would have been extremely hard to beat. However, no one can ever know.

Then we see Bisharp. It was only buffed. No one was going to use a dark or ghost move anyway (4 to 2 resist OMG) on him. Though it is true that the Defiant + Defog helped him more than anything, he was undeniably assisted to power by being able to check most fairies with that Iron Head.

Overall, I think that they got nerfed more, but it is not an absolute thing.

 

[Prince Oberyn]

I used to run Choice Band Cobalion last gen. With Justified, all you had to do was switch in a Ghost type to bait the Dark move, then switch in Cobalion to take the 4x resisted hit and then enjoy your new attack boost.

Now, Cobalion gets wrecked by Dark moves even though they're resisted. And what's more is that most of the Dark moves that hit him are Knock Off, so even though he gets an attack boost he loses his Choice Band. With Knock Off basically becoming a staple on every team, Steel types have definitely lost more than they've gained this gen.

 

[VanGru]

IMO steel types just got balanced, before steel was almost exclusively a defensive typing, now it has more of an offensive presence.