Other OU Playstyle of the Week - Hyper Offense

[rob.]

We should probably define some terms then add them to the OP.

e.g. 1) Double Switch - A term used to describe a battle strategy that always occurs in two parts. The idea is to swap one unfavorable match-up for another obvious match-up, one that your opponent expects. Then switch to another Pokemon that counters your opponents switch; Thus forcing your opponents pokemon out which gives you a free turn to set-up. This is a high risk strategy that relies heavily on prediction.

2) Set-Up Sweeper - A Pokemon that utilizes boosting moves like Dragon Dance or Nasty Plot in order to increase their special attack, attack, or speed stats to high levels; All done in order to overpower their opponents and subsequently end the game.

 

[rdjacobian]

Some things I thought worth mentioning:
Hyper Offense is a fairly common playstyle on ladder right now to say the least. I don't know if I'd call any playstyle "the best", but it is one I tend to use a lot especially in this meta.

If I'm helping someone build an ho team I'll usually adhere to the following framework: 2 things that beat opposing offense, 2 things that break walls/tanks on stall/balanced teams respectively, 1 support/glue mon (trapper, lure, hazard removal,screens user etc), and 1 thing for hazards. Keep in mind there's no cookbook formula for teambuilding, and you can always change the framework as you see fit.

I think Subject18 might have said this earlier, but this is key to hyper offense so I'll emphasize it again. In hyper offense you want a core in which you lure out and get damage on stuff that checks/counters your planned late game win con. This principle is seen in 5th gen drag mag, keld/lando/tar(or weavile), and in this gen it's apparent in the double birds team.

If your using utility mons on ho, make sure they can maintain momentum (this is why lati@s is often chosen as a defogger for ho)

Edits:
While it's a lot more common on hyper offense, I think saccing and double switching is more of a pokemon thing and is not strictly a hyper offense thing. Even stall teams are forced to sac and double switch, if they are in a bad position.

I'm pretty sure someone summarized the idea behind ho so I'm not going to delve into that

 

[cuteflounder]

Outside of the standard Deoxys leads that tend to find their way on Hyper Offense teams, another very effective lead for hyper offense teams is Sash Garchomp.

While it doesn't set up Spikes like the Deoxys leads do, Garchomp possesses a combination of decent speed and high offensive presence with a simple set of Swords Dance/Outrage/Earthquake/Stealth Rock, which is guaranteed to deal substantial damage to something. This allows Garchomp to almost always be able to get up Stealth Rock as well as heavily damage a member of the opposing team if not KO them, paving way for another member of your team to come in and do major damage. Another cool thing Garchomp has is its ability to lure out common defoggers and physically defensive Pokemon (Lando-T, Skarmory, and Ferrothorn to name a few) and hit these Pokemon hard with a Mixed set of Draco Meteor/Fire Blast/Earthquake/Stealth Rock. While it might not be as threatening as the Sash Swords Dance set in terms of raw power, the ability to lure out and KO these certain Pokemon is greatly appreciated by many members of HO.

Garchomp @ Focus Sash
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Stealth Rock

OR

Garchomp @ Focus Sash
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Stealth Rock

 

[Ajwf]

I speak of hyper offense having played AGAINST, not having used it (although everyone has used hyper offense at some point... let's be honest, we all probably started somewhere between bulky offense and hyper offense when coming into competitive play).

Hyper offense has a few points of interest that I never seen used... Well, I see it occasionally and they're the teams that drive me nuts. Volt switching, double switching... basically the ability to take a stall team and force pressure not by offensive hits but by better match ups. Since the point of both volt switches, double switches AND foddering is all to give yourself the best matchup, how well you use this aspect literally defines your skill using a hyper offensive team.

An underused proponent of hyper offense is healing wish, momento and other self-sacrificing moves. Explosion hasn't really been used much since gen4 and understandably so, but it is easy to see WHY these self-sacrificing moves are so good. They not only fulfill a momentum grab, but they block defog/rapid spin, allow for basic scouting (esp vs choice users) and can literally replenish a frail wincon (Healing Wish Latias being one of the best at all these roles). I think Subject 18 and Ash Borer both faced healing with Latias to a Talonflame recently (gave me replays of it) and both just barely fell short (Subject 18's game was decided on a coin flip).

 

[The Shellder Smuggler]

I think Charizard Y >>>>>>> Charizard X (My opinion, I couldn't care less what you have to say)

Charizard
Item: Charizardite Y
Ability: Drought
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spd / 4 HP
- Fire Blast
- Solarbeam
- Focus Blast
- Roost

I'm running a project on this sort of thing and I'm certain that this bad boy will show up at one point or another. I love Charizard Y. A counter to Water Types (Solarbeam), Drought boosting its Fire moves and weakening Water type moves, and access to reliable recovery. Sun boosted Fire Blast OHKOs most pokemon that don't resist it. Focus Blast is just there for coverage. And yeah, Roost is nice as well. Personally I think this set is great for Hyper Offense. I think this is the ideal Hyper Offense kind of pokemon, due to the fact that it has an amazing base 159 special attack as well as a nice STAB special move that is boosted in the sun. Just leave thoughts please, I'd like to hear thoughts.

 

[D-Ssain]

I think Charizard Y >>>>>>> Charizard X (My opinion, I couldn't care less what you have to say)

Charizard
Item: Charizardite Y
Ability: Drought
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spd / 4 HP
- Fire Blast
- Solarbeam
- Focus Blast
- Roost

I'm running a project on this sort of thing and I'm certain that this bad boy will show up at one point or another. I love Charizard Y. A counter to Water Types (Solarbeam), Drought boosting its Fire moves and weakening Water type moves, and access to reliable recovery. Sun boosted Fire Blast OHKOs most pokemon that don't resist it. Focus Blast is just there for coverage. And yeah, Roost is nice as well. Personally I think this set is great for Hyper Offense. I think this is the ideal Hyper Offense kind of pokemon, due to the fact that it has an amazing base 159 special attack as well as a nice STAB special move that is boosted in the sun. Just leave thoughts please, I'd like to hear thoughts.

I don't think you can simply say Charizard Y is better than Charizard X when they're completely different pokemon and that they play different roles in HO. Zard Y plays the role of pure wall breaker and Zard X a late game sweeper/ pseudo wall breaker. Charizard Y should be compared to other wall breakers that compete with it to get a spot on HO teams. Landorus and Keldeo are two sp atking mons that are also very good special wall breakers and Keldeo's access to a move like Secret Sword is very valuable against the blobs.

 

[DC-Shadow_Blaze]

I don't think you can simply say Charizard Y is better than Charizard X when they're completely different pokemon and that they play different roles in HO. Zard Y plays the role of pure wall breaker and Zard X a late game sweeper/ pseudo wall breaker. Charizard Y should be compared to other wall breakers that compete with it to get a spot on HO teams. Landorus and Keldeo are two sp atking mons that are also very good special wall breakers and Keldeo's access to a move like Secret Sword is very valuable against the blobs.

We also can't overlook how much faster the two threats you mentioned are than Zard Y. Both Lando and Keldeo have options that don't sell them up a creek.

All this on top of the ability to use a Mega that is relevant to today's threats. The metagame is overtly physical because of how many ways Unboosted Special sweepers can be derailed. Honestly, if I'm stuck with a base 100 wallbreaker, I'll stick with Megacham.

 

[Starfall11]

I'm currently at a rating of 1815 and in the top 100 on the ladder. Been practicing with HO for a while, but I'm still having some trouble. I'm learning when to use Deoxys-D and when to save him until later. But man, Espeon really shuts HO down. If people are conservative with their Espeon's and leave them in the party, you're pretty much playing a 5 vs 6 match.

Obviously Skill Swap is a viable option. But I feel it's kind of situational to have a move on your set to counter a pokemon rarely seen on the ladder. What do you guys think?

Also, could someone compile more information on effective strategies to utilize Hyper Offense? Deo-D and Deo-S are extremely good, but sometimes frowned upon for their ease of use. Are there any other viable suicide leads you guys can come up with? Maybe something retro like Aerodactyl or Metagross.

 

[LightningLuxray]

I'm currently at a rating of 1815 and in the top 100 on the ladder. Been practicing with HO for a while, but I'm still having some trouble. I'm learning when to use Deoxys-D and when to save him until later. But man, Espeon really shuts HO down. If people are conservative with their Espeon's and leave them in the party, you're pretty much playing a 5 vs 6 match.

Obviously Skill Swap is a viable option. But I feel it's kind of situational to have a move on your set to counter a pokemon rarely seen on the ladder. What do you guys think?

Also, could someone compile more information on effective strategies to utilize Hyper Offense? Deo-D and Deo-S are extremely good, but sometimes frowned upon for their ease of use. Are there any other viable suicide leads you guys can come up with? Maybe something retro like Aerodactyl or Metagross.

If you want some leads with some offensive presence, both Focus Sash Terrakion and Garchomp both do the job well. The former has access to Taunt, which can help shut other leads down (Watch out for Superpower/Psycho Boost on Deo-D/S, though) while the latter has a powerful Dragon-STAB in Outrage, as well as Rough Skin. I mean really, if you don't plan on using the Deo forms, you're probably using an outclassed lead. But they can both function reasonably well, and, as a bonus, they can both A. Take on Espeon and B. Be saved for latter game due to their strong offensive presence.

 

[doughboy]

Starfall11 Well Deoxys-D is nearly always paired with Bisharp, who can viably run Pursuit. Just put Pursuit on Bisharp and you are good go. If you predict the opponent to lead with their espeon, just lead with Bisharp. If you have Deoxys-D out and think Esepon will switch in, switch into Bisharp. Once you Pursuit trap Espeon, you can safely bring Deoxys-D back in to get SR up at the worst. Even if the Espeon has HP Fighting, which it probably won't, it is still forced into a 50-50 prediction game due to Sucker Punch.

So Espeon really isn't as big of a problem as you make it out to be. Not to mention it is not that great in OU in the first place except in lame baton pass teams.

 

[Starfall11]

Thanks for the input guys. I'm thinking of throwing Pursuit onto my Aeigislash to make Keldeo a bit more threatening and solve problems with Espeon + Xatu. He won't be running King's Shield anymore, but the threat of KS prevents so many people from attacking that you can blitz opponent's with Aegislash. I swept a team of 5 before just because my opponent would refuse to attack Aegislash, hahaha.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Thanks for the input guys. I'm thinking of throwing Pursuit onto my Aeigislash to make Keldeo a bit more threatening and solve problems with Espeon + Xatu. He won't be running King's Shield anymore, but the threat of KS prevents so many people from attacking that you can blitz opponent's with Aegislash. I swept a team of 5 before just because my opponent would refuse to attack Aegislash, hahaha.

You could honestly just remove Shadow Sneak/Sacred Swords depending on the rest of your team. I find that if I already have a lot of priority/revenge killers, Shadow Sneak isn't really necessary. It's just that King's Shield is just such a great move to switch in between Blade and Shield form... If you do decide to go without King's Shield, I'd recommend Life Orb, as it makes Aegislash hit extremely hard, and the longevity that Spooky Plate/Leftovers brings isn't really necessary anymore.

 

[Starfall11]

Well, I'm running Aegislash on HO, so I need to use Air Baloon. Also helps him check Dragonite, Landorus-T, and Mega-Garchomp much better. I'll try replacing KS and Shadow Sneak to see what works better. Shadow Sneak is really underrated on Aegislash though. Helps revenge kill without being locked into a move like (most) Talonflame, and gets the 2HKO on many pokemon with the appropriate attack.

 

[the-bumper-car]

HO is my favorite playstyle!

So as people discussed, the typical HO line-up includes 1 Hazard Setter (almost always Deoxys-D), 2-3 Wallbreakers, 2-3 Sweepers, and 1-2 Supporters. I know that adds up to a team with more than 6 pokemon, but the key is building a team around mons that are either absolutely astounding at the role they play, or can fill in two or more roles at the same time. (An example for this is Excadrill, who wears many hats on an HO team being their Rapid Spinner, Flying check, Moldbreaker Earthquaker, and even Stealth Rocker.)

HO is a slave to momentum though. HO needs to have momentum at its side from turn 1, and it really can't afford to lose it or give it up. Non-attackers and weak attackers have almost no place in HO teams since HO's playstyle is all about overwhelming the opponent's walls, checks, and counters until they croak, and non-attacking mons have to be contributing something really unique or have a way to suicide themselves to justify their presence on HO teams. (Memento Whimsicott meets both qualifications - it's a Fairy-prankster who can annoy, then set-up for another teammate while getting themselves out of the way.)

The addiction to momentum is why switching is usually a poor choice for an HO player - it is often better for them to keep in a mon who is dealing neutral/resisted attacks than switch out to a teammate with super-effective attacks, both because the current mon is probably on its last legs already so its better to let it go out with a bang, but also because it's better to have the second mon come in to revenge. This is also why coverage is so prized on HO teams, since they don't have the luxury to switch to a counter, and nothing sucks up momentum like being completely walled by a pokemon.

We can fill this thread with nothing but posts about why this or that pokemon is the best sweeper/wallbreaker, but I think the more important discussion for HO are which are the best supporters. I am extremely fond of Swords Dance Scolipede as my support pokemon, since it beats most Deoxys leads with Megahorn, and it can even set-up Spikes/Toxic Spikes while boosting Atk and Speed. What other notable supporters can you recommend?

 

[Starfall11]

I agree with most of your post the-bumper-car. I agree that HO needs momentum to win, and that we should be discussing strategy more than movesets in this thread.

However, I'm not sure "supporter" has an adequate role on HO. Something like Defog Latios or Rapid Spin Excadrill can certainly be used, but I wouldn't necessarily call that "support". I have never seen Whimsicott used to great affect on a HO team, but if you know of an example, please let me know. It's not that support pokemon are especially bad, it's more about the fact that you lose out on coverage.

For example, let's say a HO player starts the team and sacs his Deo-D for hazards. Afterwards, he sacs his Whimsicott with Memento. While he may be able to set up afterwards. The HO player is fighting a 4 vs 6 battle. If that sweeper is walled by even one pokemon on the opposing team, the HO player will probably lose. In my opinion, you need all the coverage and power/speed you can get on HO, so all five members need to all out wallbreakers, sweepers, or revenge killers (or fulfilling multiple roles).

On my HO team I use Banded Talonflame as a wallbreaker, revenge killer, and late game cleaner (sweeper). He fulfills all three roles extremely well, which makes him a versatile pokemon. I also use Aegislash as a spinblocker, wallbreaker, and revenge killer with Shadow Sneak. Once again, he fulfills three roles. Coverage is the number one concern on HO, and I think the best HO teams have excellent neutral/super effective coverage while keeping momentum.

Lastly, I think sacking pokemon can be effective on HO, but switching is a necessity as well. Primarily when you assume your opponent will switch to a pokemon that walls yours. Then a double switch is necessary. It's ironic, I love HO, but man is it stressful to use at times. If you mess up in the beginning with your Deoxys or lose one pokemon to prediction - you're probably going to lose a majority of the time. True HO relies on perfect play from the player, but makes me question as to why it's such a viable style this gen. Can anyone explain why it's so good when it seems to high risk/high reward? (For example, in fighting games or other strategy games, high-risk/high-reward is usually frowned upon and crushed in the competitive community.)

 

[the-bumper-car]

I agree with most of your post the-bumper-car. I agree that HO needs momentum to win, and that we should be discussing strategy more than movesets in this thread.

However, I'm not sure "supporter" has an adequate role on HO. Something like Defog Latios or Rapid Spin Excadrill can certainly be used, but I wouldn't necessarily call that "support". I have never seen Whimsicott used to great affect on a HO team, but if you know of an example, please let me know. It's not that support pokemon are especially bad, it's more about the fact that you lose out on coverage.

Defog Latios and Rapid Spin/Stealth Rock Excadrill fall under "Offensive Support" to me, which HO really appreciates. Both also have notable resistances and immunities that make them easy to switch-in (HO is more willing to switch in their Support pokemon than their Wallbreakers/Sweepers). HO asks a lot of its Support pokemon, and one thing I've noticed is that almost all of them need to have decent-to-great attacking stats, making Taunt a nearly useless move against the whole playstyle.

For example, let's say a HO player starts the team and sacs his Deo-D for hazards. Afterwards, he sacs his Whimsicott with Memento. While he may be able to set up afterwards. The HO player is fighting a 4 vs 6 battle. If that sweeper is walled by even one pokemon on the opposing team, the HO player will probably lose. In my opinion, you need all the coverage and power/speed you can get on HO, so all five members need to all out wallbreakers, sweepers, or revenge killers (or fulfilling multiple roles).

Well, first off I don't think Deo-D and Whimsicott should be on the same team? As you mentioned that's way too many non-full attackers on the same team. Whimsicott makes a great counter for opposing set-up sweepers and as a way to safely switch in a sweeper who doesn't have that many good resistances/immunities - his Grass/Fairy typing actually gives Whimisicott many decent switch-in chances against many notable threats in the meta, especially since HO lacks an auto-include Fairy-type to run on their team (their choices are Azumarill, Whimsicott, M-Gardevoir, and Clefable - they each fill different roles, with different opportunity costs).

On my HO team I use Banded Talonflame as a wallbreaker, revenge killer, and late game cleaner (sweeper). He fulfills all three roles extremely well, which makes him a versatile pokemon. I also use Aegislash as a spinblocker, wallbreaker, and revenge killer with Shadow Sneak. Once again, he fulfills three roles. Coverage is the number one concern on HO, and I think the best HO teams have excellent neutral/super effective coverage while keeping momentum.

Another big change I noticed on GenVI HO is that thanks to the rise of priority in the game, HO needs revenge killers who can shrug off the priority and still kill. This is why Talonflame and Aegislash are both so good, and why Sucker Punch is still valuable.

Lastly, I think sacking pokemon can be effective on HO, but switching is a necessity as well. Primarily when you assume your opponent will switch to a pokemon that walls yours. Then a double switch is necessary. It's ironic, I love HO, but man is it stressful to use at times. If you mess up in the beginning with your Deoxys or lose one pokemon to prediction - you're probably going to lose a majority of the time. True HO relies on perfect play from the player, but makes me question as to why it's such a viable style this gen. Can anyone explain why it's so good when it seems to high risk/high reward? (For example, in fighting games or other strategy games, high-risk/high-reward is usually frowned upon and crushed in the competitive community.)

In my opinion double-switches are different from vanilla switches, and part of HO's gameplan is to convert switches into double switches. HO also is really dependent on having a good lead/early game, and I've found that I've struggled to win games with HO teams where I was at too much of a disadvantage or made too many games at the start.

HO is good because unlike other high risk/high reward strategies in other games (or even in Pokemon), it's not that match-up dependent. It still needs good plays (and prediction) to win, and the checks/counters for HO are useful against other match-ups as well. There's also the fact that HO, unlike other high-risk/reward strategies, isn't too luck dependent, and once they've locked up the game they are pretty much guaranteed to win, unlike, say, SwagPlay, where after a few wrong coin flips your opponent can end up sweeping your team thanks to YOUR boosts.