Relying on a 50/50 doesn't improve your argument. Sableeye dies to terrakion regardless, as dark pulse gives it +1 and at +2 Stone Edge is a 2 HKO even if burnt. The point is, you're going to lose your Sable eye
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking: Sets (Discussing B Ranks)
- Thread starter Valmanway
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Actually, relying on a 50/50 does improve my argument, because then terrakion can't beat it 100% of the time. However, clefable can do this.
Also, which idiot would use dark pulse on a terrakion...
idk why you're making up calcs though.
+2 252 Atk burned Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 100-118 (32.8 - 38.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb burned Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 130-153 (42.7 - 50.3%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO
Why is scarfchomp ranked high than SD chomp? The scarfset is completely outclassed by scarf lando and subSD is great on chomp.
Bulk Up Talonflame for A
Bulk Up Talonflame is a very unexpected variant of Talonflame who can be very difficult to stop once it gets going. Unlike most other sweepers Bulk Up Talonflame doesn't have to go first and OHKO every mon in the opposing team to sweep. He can just as easily 2HKO all of the opposing mons and those opposing mons can't do anything to stop it (though after enough bulk ups you won't be 2HKO much). Bulk Up Talonflame is quite underrated and deserves a spot here.
Undecided Mega rankings initial thoughts
Mega Metagross:
All-Out Attacker: S
Agility: S
Mega Lopunny:
How are we going to split the sets?
Mega Sableye:
Calm Mind: S
Utility: S or A+
Mega Altaria:
DDD: A+
Offensive DD: A+
Cotton Guard: B or lower
Special Attacker: A
Mixed: A or A+ (hyper voice, fire blast, EQ and roost
Mega Diancie:
Rock Polish: A
Calm Mind: A or B+
All-Out Attacker: B+
Sub + three attacks: A- or B+
Mega Gallade:
SD: A
Sub + three attacks: B+
Sub + SD: A
Mega Latias:
Stored Power Abuser: A or A-
Defog: B
Mega Slowbro:
CroBro: A
Double Dance: A
Bulky Status spreader: B
Offensive: A-
Mega Sharpedo:
Speed Boost Sweeper: B
Mega Camerupt:
Room Abuse: C+
Sub MegaRupt: C+
Mega Pidgeot:
Hurricane Spam: C+
Non Mega Pending Sets:
Serperior:
Leaf Storm: C+
Heracross:
Scarf MoxieCross: C
Banded Wallbreaker: C
If you want me to explain any of these I will be happy to since I am too lazy to write them all up.
Bulk Up Talonflame is a very unexpected variant of Talonflame who can be very difficult to stop once it gets going. Unlike most other sweepers Bulk Up Talonflame doesn't have to go first and OHKO every mon in the opposing team to sweep. He can just as easily 2HKO all of the opposing mons and those opposing mons can't do anything to stop it (though after enough bulk ups you won't be 2HKO much). Bulk Up Talonflame is quite underrated and deserves a spot here.
Undecided Mega rankings initial thoughts
Mega Metagross:
All-Out Attacker: S
Agility: S
Mega Lopunny:
How are we going to split the sets?
Mega Sableye:
Calm Mind: S
Utility: S or A+
Mega Altaria:
DDD: A+
Offensive DD: A+
Cotton Guard: B or lower
Special Attacker: A
Mixed: A or A+ (hyper voice, fire blast, EQ and roost
Mega Diancie:
Rock Polish: A
Calm Mind: A or B+
All-Out Attacker: B+
Sub + three attacks: A- or B+
Mega Gallade:
SD: A
Sub + three attacks: B+
Sub + SD: A
Mega Latias:
Stored Power Abuser: A or A-
Defog: B
Mega Slowbro:
CroBro: A
Double Dance: A
Bulky Status spreader: B
Offensive: A-
Mega Sharpedo:
Speed Boost Sweeper: B
Mega Camerupt:
Room Abuse: C+
Sub MegaRupt: C+
Mega Pidgeot:
Hurricane Spam: C+
Non Mega Pending Sets:
Serperior:
Leaf Storm: C+
Heracross:
Scarf MoxieCross: C
Banded Wallbreaker: C
If you want me to explain any of these I will be happy to since I am too lazy to write them all up.
That's all good but what about Healing Wish variants? What about ones that forgo fake out for something like encore but they still have ice punch? There are endless possibilities here and those classifications are too restricted.
A couple of things I would like to see or stuff I agree with.
S Rank
Double Dance Lando-T should be put at A-. Although good it takes some support to function effectively in the metagame. This can be renamed so that it also includes sets such as Sub Salac Lando-T as well. I would just put Pivot as the category as it has both an offensive and defensive set and both are equally good at A+.
All Out Attacker set which includes Meteor Mash, Zen Headbutt, Hammer Arm, Grass Knot should be S because it is the most simplistic set to use and covers a lot of ground in the metagame. Its Rock Polish / Agility set is more along the lines of A+ to myself because bulky water types such as Slowbro are able to beat it on a more consistent basis due to loss of coverage. However there is the fact it's extremely tough to break once its traditional checks and counters are out of the big picture so I have no problems with seeing this S as well.
Calm Mind should be S because of the centralization it emphasizes in having a consistent answer to it. Utility set should be S as well because of the same reasons more or less but the fact that this set breaks stall a bit more effectively and punishes would be checks such as SD Garchomp and Talonflame real easily with Knock Off, Will-O-Wisp, Recover, Foul Play.
All Out Attacker I would put at S simply off of the simplicity factor and the optional 3rd coverage move in 2 STAB, Coverage, Fake Out. Sets such as Utility Attacker I would put at S. These sets include STAB + 2 support moves generally such as Sub + Baton Pass as one example or with Healing Wish. There's a lot of variances but off the bat these are the two categories I would use if you want something simple.
A+ Rank
Defensive Dragon Dance should be put at A-. It is one of the hardest sets to secure a sweep due to the nature of its utilization of mono attacking + support moves as such requires ample support to function. Offensive Dragon Dance I'd put at A+ because of its much more immediate fire power and coverage options. Support sets I would put at A+ such as the Hyper Voice, Roost, Heal Bell, Earthquake set as one example since it applies both offensive and defensive pressure where it is needed with a more defensive spread. Mixed Attacker M-Altaria should be ranked A+ simply because it encompasses variances in its sets varying from more specially offensive sets to ones that are actually mixed. This could include Special Attacker as well but I'll let you all decide.
No problems but please put Belly Drum at A+. Gaining Knock Off as a move tutor move amplified its effectiveness in the meta-game and it must be clearly established that this set is a serious threat to take into account for.
This looks good in A+ since all of its sets and the different variations are effective
Will-O-Wisp Zard-X should go to A-. It isn't so much being bad more of the fact it's not something that is as difficult to handle in the meta-game anymore. Bulky D-Dance should go to A, because of the dominance of Lando-T in the tier. Offensive Dragon Dance should have its set fixed to 104 HP / 220 Atk / 184 Speed Jolly Nature which is pretty much its most consistent spread right now. SD + Tailwind should be A and please remove the mentions of Fire Punch. It is mediocre on all of its sets with the exception of Will-O-Wisp and even then Flare Blitz provides it the necessary fire power to break balanced and defensive builds.
SR Clefable should be either moved to A- or put at A if you change SR Clefable to Support / Magic Guard Tank or something along the lines of that. SR Clefable by itself is bait for a lot of attackers and sets such as Moonblast, coverage, soft-boiled, Thunder Wave are perfectly legitimate. It should be differentiated in a way to emphasize this.
Life Orb Attacker should be at A+, I don't think this needs elaboration tbh.
This is fine in A+
To be perfectly honest with the exception of Choice Scarf Heatran all of its sets including an additional Fast Support set that you should add should be at A+. They're all equally good in regards to consistency from what I've been able to tell and use.
Choice Scarf should be removed to be honest. Not even sure why that was there in the first place when you have Lando-T.
Agreeing with Jukain that Sub CM should be A+. There's also Life Orb Keldeo that you could implement which has 3 attacks / Taunt and if so I would put this at A.
Fine for the time being even though I rather see this at A.
Either slash it on the Life Orb set or create a new one for Calm Mind Latios. This would go A by itself if you make it separate although I think a slash would be better.
SD + 3 attacks should be A+ as well. It's equal in effectiveness to its bulkier variant.
Looks fine
Looks fine
S Rank
Double Dance Lando-T should be put at A-. Although good it takes some support to function effectively in the metagame. This can be renamed so that it also includes sets such as Sub Salac Lando-T as well. I would just put Pivot as the category as it has both an offensive and defensive set and both are equally good at A+.
All Out Attacker set which includes Meteor Mash, Zen Headbutt, Hammer Arm, Grass Knot should be S because it is the most simplistic set to use and covers a lot of ground in the metagame. Its Rock Polish / Agility set is more along the lines of A+ to myself because bulky water types such as Slowbro are able to beat it on a more consistent basis due to loss of coverage. However there is the fact it's extremely tough to break once its traditional checks and counters are out of the big picture so I have no problems with seeing this S as well.
Calm Mind should be S because of the centralization it emphasizes in having a consistent answer to it. Utility set should be S as well because of the same reasons more or less but the fact that this set breaks stall a bit more effectively and punishes would be checks such as SD Garchomp and Talonflame real easily with Knock Off, Will-O-Wisp, Recover, Foul Play.
All Out Attacker I would put at S simply off of the simplicity factor and the optional 3rd coverage move in 2 STAB, Coverage, Fake Out. Sets such as Utility Attacker I would put at S. These sets include STAB + 2 support moves generally such as Sub + Baton Pass as one example or with Healing Wish. There's a lot of variances but off the bat these are the two categories I would use if you want something simple.A+ Rank
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Just a nitpick, the op says no set can be higher than that particular mons ranking, but alomomola, lucario, and entei all have a set that is a half a ranking (I guess?) above there rankings. For example Alomomola has a set that is B, while it is B-.
It's not like Sableye gets to run 2 attacks, and dark pulse is probably better than shadow ball as nothing is immune to dark.
I suppose it could use WoW and spam recover but yeah.
Ghost is actually the preferred attacking type over Dark, because it hits Fairies and Fighting types neutrally.
All out attacker Lopunny for S: pretty obvious
All out attacker Metagross for S as well, also obvious
Defog Mega Scizor for A-: This thing is a wall the likes of Skarmory and can hit back way harder. Great utility with U-Turn after Defogging. Fire attacks necessary to knock this thing out
Rock Polish Diancie for A: Pretty frail because of an awful HP stat, so the extra speed is helpful, and combined with its offensive firepower make it pretty deadly
Choice Scarf Gengar for A / A-: I know it's not common at all, but can be a great revenge killer and excellent late game cleaner. You no longer lose speed ties for running HP fire if you want and has access to Trick for crippling walls (Chansey being pretty much a free switch on most Gengars)
All out attacker Metagross for S as well, also obvious
Defog Mega Scizor for A-: This thing is a wall the likes of Skarmory and can hit back way harder. Great utility with U-Turn after Defogging. Fire attacks necessary to knock this thing out
Rock Polish Diancie for A: Pretty frail because of an awful HP stat, so the extra speed is helpful, and combined with its offensive firepower make it pretty deadly
Choice Scarf Gengar for A / A-: I know it's not common at all, but can be a great revenge killer and excellent late game cleaner. You no longer lose speed ties for running HP fire if you want and has access to Trick for crippling walls (Chansey being pretty much a free switch on most Gengars)
Js, but chansey is actually walled by gengar anyways.
Char-Y: Fine
M-Diancie: All Out Attacker which includes ones with Protect should be A, Rock Polish should go to A simply for its ability to sweep through offense, CM I have no opinion on but I'm assuming it's equally effective against Balanced and Stall builds.
M-Gallade: Wallbreaker for A. Nothing else to say.
Garchomp: Choice Scarf should be B+, you have Lando-T which is peoples go to scarfer. I would consolidate the Garchomp set of SD SR and Focus Sash to "Lead" Garchomp and just put that under A. SD Garchomp by itself can be A- since that also encompasses SubSD as well.
Latias-Mega: I'd hold off on this for a bit. Its viability is being discussed in regular thread and to be frank it's simply not A material.
Manaphy: "TG RD" should be the category in A. Regular Tail Glow is B+ and CM itself is A-.
M-Manectric - Slowbro: Fine
M-Bro: Double Dance M-Slowbro should sit at A. Crobro should be B+ because it's much easier to take advantage of and Defensive M-Bro which is just CM or its regular support set I would put at A-.
M-Venusaur: Fine
Celebi: I don't think there needs to be a Baton Pass section for Celebi. Almost all Celebis these days run it on various sets. Defensive and Offensive are the categories and Offensive should sit at B+ because this includes Nasty Plot Celebi.
Diggersby: Put an all out attacker set at A- because it's a nice simple hitter on offensive minded builds that is extremely easy to use.
M-Heracross: Fine for now
Hippowdon: Just put the section of "Wall" for Hippowdon. It runs various spreads to suit the teams needs and both physically defensive and specially defensive variants are equal in value these days.
Jirachi: You have B+ sets for an A- threat. A- for its specially defensive set, choice scarf for B+, Subtoxic deserves a mention as well and I believe it should go under A- as well for its potential in efficiency.
Magnezone + Mamoswine: Fine
Politoed: I would just put rain support. Not everyone runs specially defensive and it runs plenty of variations.
M-Sceptile: Fine
Terrakion: Just change Focus Sash to Lead for the same reasons as Garchomp.
Tyranitar: Fine
M-Diancie: All Out Attacker which includes ones with Protect should be A, Rock Polish should go to A simply for its ability to sweep through offense, CM I have no opinion on but I'm assuming it's equally effective against Balanced and Stall builds.
M-Gallade: Wallbreaker for A. Nothing else to say.
Garchomp: Choice Scarf should be B+, you have Lando-T which is peoples go to scarfer. I would consolidate the Garchomp set of SD SR and Focus Sash to "Lead" Garchomp and just put that under A. SD Garchomp by itself can be A- since that also encompasses SubSD as well.
Latias-Mega: I'd hold off on this for a bit. Its viability is being discussed in regular thread and to be frank it's simply not A material.
Manaphy: "TG RD" should be the category in A. Regular Tail Glow is B+ and CM itself is A-.
M-Manectric - Slowbro: Fine
M-Bro: Double Dance M-Slowbro should sit at A. Crobro should be B+ because it's much easier to take advantage of and Defensive M-Bro which is just CM or its regular support set I would put at A-.
M-Venusaur: Fine
Celebi: I don't think there needs to be a Baton Pass section for Celebi. Almost all Celebis these days run it on various sets. Defensive and Offensive are the categories and Offensive should sit at B+ because this includes Nasty Plot Celebi.
Diggersby: Put an all out attacker set at A- because it's a nice simple hitter on offensive minded builds that is extremely easy to use.
M-Heracross: Fine for now
Hippowdon: Just put the section of "Wall" for Hippowdon. It runs various spreads to suit the teams needs and both physically defensive and specially defensive variants are equal in value these days.
Jirachi: You have B+ sets for an A- threat. A- for its specially defensive set, choice scarf for B+, Subtoxic deserves a mention as well and I believe it should go under A- as well for its potential in efficiency.
Magnezone + Mamoswine: Fine
Politoed: I would just put rain support. Not everyone runs specially defensive and it runs plenty of variations.
M-Sceptile: Fine
Terrakion: Just change Focus Sash to Lead for the same reasons as Garchomp.
Tyranitar: Fine
Mega diancie with Protect+3 attacks is it's best set IMO, and should be A.
CM Mega dianie is really good too, but kinda has issues with turn one M-evolving, and unlike Rock polish it isnt really fixed by boosting in base form IMO.
RP is good too, another A set IMO.
As for celebi sets:
Defensive sets are great, insane bulk and just annoying af to deal with A- for sure.
Passing sets are super dangerous with stuff like M-metagross easily ripping up everything once the pass is succesful. same obviously goes for the aptly named nasty-pass.
Offensive sets can also work, but isnt really A- material IMO.
CM Mega dianie is really good too, but kinda has issues with turn one M-evolving, and unlike Rock polish it isnt really fixed by boosting in base form IMO.
RP is good too, another A set IMO.
As for celebi sets:
Defensive sets are great, insane bulk and just annoying af to deal with A- for sure.
Passing sets are super dangerous with stuff like M-metagross easily ripping up everything once the pass is succesful. same obviously goes for the aptly named nasty-pass.
Offensive sets can also work, but isnt really A- material IMO.
I'm just going to address changes. Everything else I believe will be fine.
(Focus Sash / Life Orb : B+) Fine but add this aspect of Life Orb as it runs the same set as the Focus Sash set
(Leech Seed: C) Lol C- or D. This is useless in an M-Sableye and M-Gross meta and is extremely niche. Not even worth running
(SD Poison Heal) Add this one in there for its wall-breaking potential against defensive builds and success on such builds such as Doughboy's Rain team.
(Support: B+) Just consolidate the two roles you have into support.
(Physically Defensive: B+) Fine
(BD Chesnaught B-) Breaks balanced build and defensive builds pretty well but has issues with some forms of offense
(Dragon Dance: B) This is what I'd put it at B- if anything. Easily taken advantage of and isn't that difficult to play around.
(Bulky Roost: B-) I'd go ahead and make this B tbh. It's actually not too bad in the metagame with all the Gengars, Lando-Is, and Char-Y's running around.
(Choice Band: C-) Uh just remove this. Nobody not even beginners use this lol. No need for it to be there.
Put Support role which is implying its Spikes set which includes the Magnet rise variant. Put this under B+.
All of its roles should be at B+
Latias (Mega) (Pending) Just leave it at B+ I guess in terms of CM attacker. It's actually pretty garbage but some people like it.
Stallbreaker is B+, Hazard removal is B, and offensive Mew which is more team dependent is B-
Both its Specs and AV set fall under B+. CM can go in B. It's not that fantastic of win con as people make it out to be.
(Specially Defensive: B) Why is specially defensive so high lol. Please put this down to around C. Physical defensive is the superior option for it
B Rank
(Pending) Mega Sharpedos category is that of a Late Game Cleaner. You could imply Sweeper as well since theoretically it's using the Speed Boost it gains from Protect turn to sweep teams late game. However I think Late Game Cleaner is a more appropriate category.
Nasty Plot Baton Pass is B. Its the best set in the meta right now for it.
B- Rank
Utility set for B- which includes variants that run Defog / SR or one of these with bulk investment. Specs should be C+ it's not even a relevant enough set to take into account for these days and its best trait is that of its defensive utility.
(Revenge Killer: B-) Scarf Hydreigon is a really overrated set. Its Life Orb set is simply superior in regards to its capabilities and revenge killer should go down to C+
Latios (Mega) (Pending) This thing is beyond garbage and such a waste of a mega. Leave it at B- and put it under the role of mixed attacker.
Serperior (Pending) Revenge Killer or Cleaner is a suitable role for Serperior.
The role should be offensive Quiver Dance. Nobody uses bulky quiver dance cause it's mediocre. If you do put bulky rona put it under C.
(Focus Sash / Life Orb : B+) Fine but add this aspect of Life Orb as it runs the same set as the Focus Sash set(Leech Seed: C) Lol C- or D. This is useless in an M-Sableye and M-Gross meta and is extremely niche. Not even worth running
(SD Poison Heal) Add this one in there for its wall-breaking potential against defensive builds and success on such builds such as Doughboy's Rain team.
(Support: B+) Just consolidate the two roles you have into support.
(Physically Defensive: B+) Fine(BD Chesnaught B-) Breaks balanced build and defensive builds pretty well but has issues with some forms of offense
(Bulky Roost: B-) I'd go ahead and make this B tbh. It's actually not too bad in the metagame with all the Gengars, Lando-Is, and Char-Y's running around.
B Rank
B- Rank
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