It should be in the policy review forum, if I'm not mistaken. However, only badge holders and a few selected people can post there.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Resource ORAS OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Flamer
- Start date
- Status
Another observation from a couple of games on the ladder; what has happened to Manaphy? I don't think I have seen much of it nowadays. With Hoopa-U gone, Gengar prone to Pursuit, Kyu-B weak to Rocks and other wallbreakers being Mega Evos (except maybe Nasty Plot Thundurus) , I would expect it to thrive in this meta. However, I don't think I have seen it more than once in 15 games.
Because shiny new toy syndrome. Volcanion is out and in force, and because of it, a lot of other water types get pushed aside so people can use the mega volcano fire hose. Plus in the wallbreaking department alone, Volcanion does sorta do Manaphy's job, hitting far harder right out of the gate and with better arguably better coverage and definitely better STABS, despite being slower. I mean, without a boost Manaphy hits like a limp noodle (252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 57-67 (8.8 - 10.4%) -- possible 9HKO after Stealth Rock), while Volcanion with even just a Life Orb... (252+ SpA Life Orb Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 133-156 (20.7 - 24.2%) -- 78.2% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock), which is just a hair weaker than Manaphy with a Tail Glow, and Specs outright hits harder.
EDIT: And as Creator of Chaos said, Stall being nonexistent as it is doesn't do Manaphy any favors. HO blows over it, and anything that isn't standard stall has some form of answer to it that makes it non-relevant.
Last edited:
Biggest problem with manaphy right now is the fact that stall right now is just not that common. which is manaphies Best match up. Sure balance and bulky offence are common but these teams by nature often pack an answer to it without thinking such as ferrothorn, Mega latias, breloom. Even standard clef can potentially win. Sure electrics are dieing out and other factors benefit it but the fact it just can't Break teams like it used to and those it can are rare
Edited some rushed parts
Last edited:
Honestly the surge in balance should be increasing Manaphy's viability if anything, so I genuinely think that this is entirely a case of shiny new toy syndrome. Give it a week or two for the Volc hype train to die off and I think Manaphy will begin to rise in usage again.
Since when was a breloom an answer to manaphy? And stall doesn't suck. It's all over the top of the ladder. It's just simply shiny new toy syndrome as others have already pointed out.
apoligizes on my part for breloom. Almost forget manaphy almost always carried ice beam. Regarding stall I'm on a Mobile so I kinda rushed. I ment to say it's not as common as before outside the top of the ladder. Even with hoopas banning players are opting for balance and bulky offence instead since they handle wallbreakers easier.
I don't entirely by the shiny new toy syndrome theory. Sure it can partly explain manaphies absence but good players if the meta was as kind to it as implied would have caught on by now. Honestly it's probably a combination of new toy syndrome and the meta being more prepared for offencive waters then at manas height. Maybe I'm wrong but I do miss seeing the cute thing lol.
What did you expect from a ladder where people use Zapdos and Mew more than Terrakion, MAlakazam and MLatias.
Was this said negatively? I mean, Volc is an amazing Pokemon, but what do you think of it? Is it really a "hype train"?
As much as I love Volcanion, im only worried to see him drop (as he his currently ranked A+). He his so easy to wear down due to subpar bulk and high hazards damage, is not really fast and doesnt really shine against offense, wich are the most played teams atm. He's amazing in bulky offenses/Balance, and against balance, but idk.
So according to what I've seen (may be wrong) like 3-4 months ago m-scizor was one of the best megas. Then it seemed to fall off a bit and now it's suddenly amazing again. Why is this?
This wasn't meant to be a negative point. What I am saying is that, while Volcanion is very good, the sheer volume of usage that its getting rn is in part because people are still playing around with their shiny new toy. It will most likely drop a little in usage over the next few weeks, as the hype train is starting to come to a stop now due to how long its been out.
Manaphy sure is a huge threat as a sweeper, but he will only be that good at breaking stall thanks to his speed and the cheer power of TailGlow, but that speed is also his weakness against offense teams, and balance ones, who usually pack a counter/check or an offensive and fast offensive core. ORAS OU is an extremely fast tier, and the previously great 100 speed tier is just not anymore. With all that, I can see why Manaphy isnt the prefered sweeper. However, and thanks to his decent natural bulk, he can surely act as a great late game sweeper once his would-be checks and revange killers are gone.
To be honest the more I think about it I believe there is more too it as well. It's not just with the release of Volcanion that we started to see a decline in Manaphy's usage. I think it really began once people started to favor using hoopa U as their wall breaker of choice. Shortly after hoopas ban along comes volcanion and the shiny new toy syndrome that comes with it.
The rise of av tangrowth with leaf storm hurt it, as well as the rise in usage of amoongus which annoys non psychic or ice beam variants as well. The set needed to break a chansey and amoongus core would need rain dance, tail glow, scald and ice beam and that set itself struggles with calm mind slowbro, venusaur, ferro, suicune and now volcanion as well.
Even though keldeo and starmie won't appreciate a +3 scald, they can switch in on manaphy's ice or water coverage or as it tail glows and threaten it with a specs secret sword or t-bolt, since it will lack energy ball on the sets needed to break the most common stall build.
Also without energy ball rotom-w can get off a volt switch on +3 manaphy weakening it to revenge kill range, and unless manaphy gets the burn on azumarill then it might take a banded play rough to the face.
Despite all this I still think Manaphy is really good since it puts a massive strain on bulky teams. I wouldn't be surprised to see it pop up more often once volcanion usage begins to stabilize.
Last edited:
I've been using Mega Sableye for a while, and I decided to try out a kind of weird set. Its actually been fairly successful, let me know what you think.
Sableye @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Shadow Ball
Its a bit unorthodox and has quite a few counters, but it's unexpected and has been rather effective. Also, I'm not a big Magnezone user, but it works nicely with this Sableye set.
Sableye @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Shadow Ball
Its a bit unorthodox and has quite a few counters, but it's unexpected and has been rather effective. Also, I'm not a big Magnezone user, but it works nicely with this Sableye set.
If you're running CM, which isn't a terrific set in the first place, you definitely don't want maximum investment in special defense, as that's already being boosted by Calm Mind. Max Physically defensive or something close to it would be much more useful.
No idea, I still love to use Mmanectric, Rotom H and thundurus I.
Is it perhaps the rise of dragon checks to volcanion?
Electrics cuz Sand man. Ttar traps em, Exca checks em to hell, especially Raikou. You got stuff like Amoonguss too which takes on Raikou (guess not SubCM but who runs sub now?)/Thund pretty decently
Also Hoopa being chosen as the go-to wallbreaker over Manaphy wasn't the only reason Manaphy started seeing less usage. Hoopa -> bulkier play styles took a hit -> what is Manaphy setting up on?
So yeah these days you just don't have passive as hell shit that Manaphy just TGs up and sweeps any more. If you manage to get a TG off you're gonna get 1 kill most of the time. It's still a really big threat but its kinda like ZardX where its checks are prevalent and you just don't get opportunities to set up all that much. Granted Mana I think is a little less pressured than Zard because of its typing but it checks a lot fewer things than Keldeo for example (another big reason, overtaken as the go-to water-type) which also got better upon Dark types being everywhere since it pairs well with them and checks them
Also Hoopa being chosen as the go-to wallbreaker over Manaphy wasn't the only reason Manaphy started seeing less usage. Hoopa -> bulkier play styles took a hit -> what is Manaphy setting up on?
So yeah these days you just don't have passive as hell shit that Manaphy just TGs up and sweeps any more. If you manage to get a TG off you're gonna get 1 kill most of the time. It's still a really big threat but its kinda like ZardX where its checks are prevalent and you just don't get opportunities to set up all that much. Granted Mana I think is a little less pressured than Zard because of its typing but it checks a lot fewer things than Keldeo for example (another big reason, overtaken as the go-to water-type) which also got better upon Dark types being everywhere since it pairs well with them and checks them
[
yeah makes sense
I don't know if that's true. It's definitely true of Raikou, but you won't really want to switch your Ttar in on a potential focus blast or even grass knot from thundy. I think electric types are simply changing the guard. I've been seeing Rotom-W and Zapdos more and Thundy still sees about as much play as before. The meta just doesn't favor Raikou and Mega Man as much as it used to. At least this is the feel I'm getting from ladder. I don't honestly know what the tournament scene is looking like these days.
What are people's feelings on Chesnaught atm? It seems to fill a similar role to some of the other fat grass types that have been getting hyped up recently. The role compression it offers in the form of spiker, sand check, and wall, seems pretty valuable and it actually does pair up decently with ttar (minus the synthesis in sand interaction) if you wanted to try it as a spike setter/counter opposing sand mon on sand. I may be biased because I do like Chesnaught, so I'm curious to see what others think.
sam-testings
What a beautiful face, I have found in this place
So what are peoples thoughts on full weather teams these days? Obviously Rain is the best team to go full weather on with Mega Swampert, but Sun is also pretty good with CharY.
AFAIK only Rain teams seem to have at least 2 abusers/team. Sun is usually limited to Mega Char-Y + Chloro Venusaur, unless you want to try the very gimmicky Heat Rock Ninetales + 2 Chloro core, which stacks up weaknesses like no tomorrow, notably vs Talonflame.
If you're gonna use Sun don't bother with regular venusaur. The only other sun variant is the M-Diancie, Ninetale archetype which is built around full sun but normally those aren't really good either other than to cheese the ladder. It is better than the Char-Y Venu concept.
The concept of sun in how people use that whole CharYVenu thing is dumb fyi, its just not good. You're not gonna really build a sun oriented team in the meta but you can pair Char-Y up with something that abuses the sun. A good example that I've used is Char-Y and Choice Specs Heatran. After that you would just build a regular team.
If you want that sort of sun feel using wall-breakers that like the sun boost such as the one mentioned and Band Tini ( I guess Infernape can work here to idk dong mon) is how you would use it. Dugtrio can help remove TTar for those archetypes as well.
Also this archetype BLOOOOWS do not use this hot ass garbage.
The concept of sun in how people use that whole CharYVenu thing is dumb fyi, its just not good. You're not gonna really build a sun oriented team in the meta but you can pair Char-Y up with something that abuses the sun. A good example that I've used is Char-Y and Choice Specs Heatran. After that you would just build a regular team.
If you want that sort of sun feel using wall-breakers that like the sun boost such as the one mentioned and Band Tini ( I guess Infernape can work here to idk dong mon) is how you would use it. Dugtrio can help remove TTar for those archetypes as well.
- Status