np: XY UU Stage 2 - Light Em Up

[Kingpoleon]

Okay we can all agree AV is bad. Now can we stop the circlejerking and discuss something else.

but for the record, 4 Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 200-236 (79.3 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I'm missing something, but I think we all know SashZam is the best non Mega Zam.
Can we argue about the rest of my post now?
P. S. I already said that I should've looked back over and edited it TBO. I apologized and yet you still don't get it. Not arguing with you about Zam anymore.

 

[NGC-2024]

252+ SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 100 SpD Assault Vest Umbreon: 146-172 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Admittedly, that is a nooby item and spread. But I like how you make a minor nitpick and pretend that it makes my entire post invalid.

AV umbreon makes that whole post invalid by taking away all of your credibility. which was like 0 anyway

 

[Thanks Brock Obama]

I'm missing something, but I think we all know SashZam is the best non Mega Zam.
Can we argue about the rest of my post now?
P. S. I already said that I should've looked back over and edited it TBO. I apologized and yet you still don't get it. Not arguing with you about Zam anymore.

Sure, sorry if I upset you. I just restated something I thought you misunderstood, no need to take things personal when we're all here for fun, eh?

Having used Moltres before I personally think it is a pretty good anti-meta mon, comes in on Volc and doesn't care about anything from there. Yet having used Moltres I'm personally not a fan of having a poke on my team that has a 4x SR weakness even now that hazards are easier to clear, as you can never guarantee that your side will be clear. Moltres requires support to keep the field clear, and good opponents will be sure to get them rocks up once they see you have a serious SR weakness on your team like that. Moltres is a great counter to Volc, but requires support to make sure Moltres can switch in more than once.

As for Jellicent? I'm just not a big fan, I just don't think that he's good enough to warrant a spot as a bulky water-type on most teams when Suicune and Slowbro are around, even if he does better against Volc. Running Cursed Body means Jelli can't run his best ability in Water Absorb, and I don't think that just Volc should make this Jelli's prefered set. The set you suggested is good against Volc, but just isn't as good as Slowbro and Suicune overall and doesn't warrant a spot on most teams IMO. It should really only be run like this if you really need something for Volc and don't have a bulky water-type on your team already.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Honestly, there shouldn't have been an argument about MegaZam to begin with. A Pokemon with stats akin to Deoxys-A has no fucking business down in UU. You can argue that it isn't quite the same due to lack of items, but a Pokemon who hits as hard as a Specs neutral Base 115 or an LO neutral Base 140 while still outpacing nearly all of unboosted UU with a neutral nature is just flat out toxic. The fact that people had to pull out obscure shit like AV Umbreon is just a further testament to the aforementioned statements. I applaud whoever pulled out the AV Umbreon post. Although it sounded stupid, it actually is a decent fact to testify how bullshit Alakazite is.

I don't know how you guys feel, but I predict that Swampert is going to rise in usage. I frankly haven't experienced the meta yet to make a definite conclusion, but based on what's given, the standard Tank Swampert can easily check both Luke and Infernapes without Grass Knot fairly well.

 

[RowDog]

Well, there has been a fair bit of about the new drops and whether they are broken or not, and I have seen some good arguments for most, but who do you think will go underneath the ban hammer in a few days time? Considering we are banning things which only need to be considered potentially broken I think that this process will really help, as it is a bit much to take everything in at once.

Personally I am finding Alakazite, Volc and Lucario are all really easy for me to see as possibly broken. Not really all that much to say about Mega-Ala that hasn't already been said. Insane Speed and SpAtk, great movepool and an abusable ability. Volc has been a bit more manageable than what I would have initially though, but it is rather centralising as I am finding random Rock moves on obscure Pokemon such as Gourgeist and Chesnaught both running Rock Slide justto punish a Volc switchin, and Volc really doesn't have too hard a time to setup. Lucario is very powerful after a boost, perhaps too powerful. With crushing attacks to hit defensive teams and 3 types of strong priority for offensive teams with the ability to run Physical and Special movesets with boosting moves makes it very bloody difficult to handle.
Infernape is one which I am not so sure about as it could well be potentially broken. The only reason I'd say this is because of the mixed LO set and access to Grass Knot makes it very hard to wall or switch-in to, making the monkey very hard to play around against a good player.
The rest: Goodra, Blissey and regular Alakazam I all doubt are broken. Goodra really isn't much game changing, and has quite a few flaws holding it back. Blissey's Physical Bulk and lack of offensive pressure really holds it back from being broken. Lastly Alakazam isn't anywhere as intimidating as its mega-form. SashZam doesn't hit all that hard and other Zams have rather poor bulk, making it not very hard to deal with in my experience.

But honestly though I can't wait until some of these are gone, if not because they are broken but moreso that we can look at the individually instead of the whole tier getting fcked over by all these big new threats.

 

[Jacks0n]

I actually don't think luc will be banned. It has quite a lot of checks and counters. Its great IMO but not quite broken.

 

[nv]

I actually don't think luc will be banned. It has quite a lot of checks and counters. Its great IMO but not quite broken.

I agree. In my opinion, with Lucario's frailty, base 90 speed, and the fact it has 4MSS (wants STABs, E-Speed, Ice Punch, Crunch on physical set and idk on special set [haven't used it yet]). Granted most Luke's are running Crunch because Bro is more common than Gligar but that is all the more reason to run Gligar. I even have a spread (granted it isn't the best but I threw it together):

Gligar Set

Gligar @ Eviolite
Ability: Immunity/Hyper Cutter
EVs: 172 Atk / 252 Def / 80 HP / 4 Spd
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- U-turn/Defog
- Roost
- Stealth Rock

The Atk EVs kill Lucario. If -1 (from CC), no Atk EVs are needed for kill. Defog is cool with the buff but tbh Immunity is the better ability so leave Spinning/Defogging to something else. Rest of set is self-explanatory.

Overall, Luke is screwed by Gligar without Ice Punch and Bro without Crunch. And even then there are checks to Luke (which imo should almost always be Adamant which means MixDrei, Nidoking, and a few others are good checks.) Most checks are crippled by +2 LO Adamant E-Speed but if they can survive that (someone like healthy Tini before rocks) then Lucario is dead. Only thing Jolly > Adamant is to outpace things like Hera and Nido but tbh any Hydrei with Superpower (which is great for LO sets) is a dead stop to Luke and Adamant allows E-Speed to hit harder after +2.

4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 315-372 (112 - 132.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Godsend]

Honestly, there shouldn't have been an argument about MegaZam to begin with. A Pokemon with stats akin to Deoxys-A has no fucking business down in UU. You can argue that it isn't quite the same due to lack of items, but a Pokemon who hits as hard as a Specs neutral Base 115 or an LO neutral Base 140 while still outpacing nearly all of unboosted UU with a neutral nature is just flat out toxic. The fact that people had to pull out obscure shit like AV Umbreon is just a further testament to the aforementioned statements. I applaud whoever pulled out the AV Umbreon post. Although it sounded stupid, it actually is a decent fact to testify how bullshit Alakazite is.

I don't know how you guys feel, but I predict that Swampert is going to rise in usage. I frankly haven't experienced the meta yet to make a definite conclusion, but based on what's given, the standard Tank Swampert can easily check both Luke and Infernapes without Grass Knot fairly well.

I'm not saying wether or not anything is broken atm (not that anyone cares what I think anyway) but I think you should hold competent players to a comparatively higher standard. What I'm saying is, one, people don't HAVE to run AV Umbreon, that, that was a "nooby" (as stated by Kingpoleon himself) suggestion. Two, if an inexperienced player said "I've resorted to using Muk to check Infernape" does that make Infernape broken? No, it just means that player has no sense of the metagame. Muk kind of checks Nape but is generally considered unviable. All I'm saying is you'll want to use stronger arguments to suggest brokenness than, essentially, "this nooby player used a nooby thing, this HAS to be broken."

 

[Jacks0n]

Honestly, there shouldn't have been an argument about MegaZam to begin with. A Pokemon with stats akin to Deoxys-A has no fucking business down in UU. You can argue that it isn't quite the same due to lack of items, but a Pokemon who hits as hard as a Specs neutral Base 115 or an LO neutral Base 140 while still outpacing nearly all of unboosted UU with a neutral nature is just flat out toxic. The fact that people had to pull out obscure shit like AV Umbreon is just a further testament to the aforementioned statements. I applaud whoever pulled out the AV Umbreon post. Although it sounded stupid, it actually is a decent fact to testify how bullshit Alakazite is.

I don't know how you guys feel, but I predict that Swampert is going to rise in usage. I frankly haven't experienced the meta yet to make a definite conclusion, but based on what's given, the standard Tank Swampert can easily check both Luke and Infernapes without Grass Knot fairly well.

pardon me?

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 383-452 (94.8 - 111.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[UU ALL DAY]

I feel like MegaZam is really good, and pretty much the best mega, but to be fair, it's probably because all the other good megas are gone. We no longer have megacham or even Mega manetric to do anything, so it makes zam even more viable as a mega spot on a team.

I think its speed and power are great, maybe even too good for UU, but it has pretty one dimensional set. I personally prefer the sash set because you can afford to run a specific move to kill off a mon (like dazzling gleam over energy ball), but the mega set is definitely the best mega. Broken? idk, I find things like lucario a lot better in terms of sheer power because luc can hit from either or both sides of the spectrum, and can come in more easily thanks to its typing.

 

[Jacks0n]

I feel like MegaZam is really good, and pretty much the best mega, but to be fair, it's probably because all the other good megas are gone. We no longer have megacham or even Mega manetric to do anything, so it makes zam even more viable as a mega spot on a team.

I think its speed and power are great, maybe even too good for UU, but it has pretty one dimensional set. I personally prefer the sash set because you can afford to run a specific move to kill off a mon (like dazzling gleam over energy ball), but the mega set is definitely the best mega. Broken? idk, I find things like lucario a lot better in terms of sheer power because luc can hit from either or both sides of the spectrum, and can come in more easily thanks to its typing.

firstly, luc is frail asf so can't really switch in. Secondly alakazam mega has psyshock to hit on both sides of the spectrum.. Also alakazam has sheer power withought wasting a turn of set up, is the fastest pokemon with MODEST Bar scarfers and mega aero aswell as having good coveredge to hit lots of 'would-be' switch ins. Luc isn't even that broken, while mega alakazam is broken asf.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

firstly, luc is frail asf so can't really switch in. Secondly alakazam mega has psyshock to hit on both sides of the spectrum.. Also alakazam has sheer power withought wasting a turn of set up, is the fastest pokemon with MODEST Bar scarfers and mega aero aswell as having good coveredge to hit lots of 'would-be' switch ins. Luc isn't even that broken, while mega alakazam is broken asf.

zam isn't much bulkier than lucario. and zam only has psyshock, meaning that it doesn't have viable options to go physical. For example, if Lucario wants to hit Slowbro, it can afford to run Shadow Ball or Dark Pulse, but it can also run Crunch.

Just because you think it's broken doesn't mean I do lol. And what are your lucario switch ins exactly? Lucario can actually deal with scarfers with 3 forms of priority. Zam is basically at the mercy of anything base 100 scarfed. not saying that it isn't amazing, I'm just saying that zam definitely has its ways of being beaten, just like lucario. I don't have to run anything retarded to stop it from sweeping teams.

 

[Jacks0n]

zam isn't much bulkier than lucario. and zam only has psyshock, meaning that it doesn't have viable options to go physical. For example, if Lucario wants to hit Slowbro, it can afford to run Shadow Ball or Dark Pulse, but it can also run Crunch.

Just because you think it's broken doesn't mean I do lol. And what are your lucario switch ins exactly? Lucario can actually deal with scarfers with 3 forms of priority. Zam is basically at the mercy of anything base 100 scarfed. not saying that it isn't amazing, I'm just saying that zam definitely has its ways of being beaten, just like lucario. I don't have to run anything retarded to stop it from sweeping teams.

Honestly you have checks such as scarfers and mega aero for mega zam, but you have to sak things to bring them in. For example if you had a scarf mien and band victini. You would have to sak victini to a shadow ball to bring in scarf mien safely. Mega zam doesn't really have many defencive checks at all, the only ones being slowking (which is rare asf) and probably some other random crap. While slowking, bulky nidoqueen and gligar can all switch in to luc withought you having to sak something. The fact that you have to continuously sak pokemon to bring in a check to mega zam (which can switch out and then wreak havoc later) while there are 2 or three solid switch in's to luc make it less borked. Im not saying luc is bad, its good as, but mega zams combination of ridiculous speed and sp.attack aswell as psyshock to get past all special walls and good coveredge in shadow ball, focust blast, energy ball dazzling gleam ect make it the most broken and unbalanced pokemon in the current meta.

 

[Patrick1088]

Ive been using av snorlax with an ev spread of 252 atk/252def/4 sp def against timid mega zam. It can switch in on psychic or psyshock , take the focus blast and has a significant chance to ohko mega zam with crunch.

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 202-238 (43.8 - 51.6%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Snorlax: 169-199 (36.6 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Snorlax Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 242-286 (96 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Albeit, hes a shaky check since mega zam just needs to switch its nature to modest and lax is cleanly 2hko. It can check it still if you sac a poke to mega zam since lax cant switch in reliably.

So, alakazite def broken IMO and lucario is broken too. Lucario and daunt share many common traits. High attack, access to boosting moves and priority. Chesnaught was considered a counter to daunt then boom daunt ran aerial ace or ice beam, no more counter or check. Oh it can be revenge killed easily then boom you got an aqua jet to the face. But lucario can even go special and bypass its checks.

Lucario can beat gligar with ice punch, slowbro with crunch, faster threats with e speed, or it can go special wlith nasty plot. Tty revenge killing a poke that kos faster pokes with a +2 espeed.

Volc is more annoying, but more manageable. Between blissey av snorlax, scarf ape, fletchinder and sr, its pretty manageable. Oh and mega aero duh i forgot. Vooc is going to run essentially the same set with slight variance, but dedicated special walls can still wall it, but it can setup on umbreon and florges so easily though. So, not broken IMO.

Ape is annoying though. Not broken, but annoying nonetheless. Mixed LO and scarf are the more common sets. well see how ape progresses in this meta...

 

[DiscoDucky]

I'm not saying wether or not anything is broken atm (not that anyone cares what I think anyway) but I think you should hold competent players to a comparatively higher standard. What I'm saying is, one, people don't HAVE to run AV Umbreon, that, that was a "nooby" (as stated by Kingpoleon himself) suggestion. Two, if an inexperienced player said "I've resorted to using Muk to check Infernape" does that make Infernape broken? No, it just means that player has no sense of the metagame. Muk kind of checks Nape but is generally considered unviable. All I'm saying is you'll want to use stronger arguments to suggest brokenness than, essentially, "this nooby player used a nooby thing, this HAS to be broken."

Although Emp's suggestion was pretty ridiculous, it does add more evidence to the MegaZam brokenness case. The case for MegaZam is well documented, and showing calcs for a Special Tank running Assault Vest still getting 2HKOed by Focus Blast imo is a legitimate calc unless he said that he was going to use it. The second case does not apply to this discussion. I did not support his AV Umbreon as a legitimate set, but as a Theorymon and "proof" to prove brokenness.

Trust me, I usually skim over most posts on this thread as well as viability rankings, but this mini-shitstorm piqued my interest, thus I felt the need to join in :D

pardon me?

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 383-452 (94.8 - 111.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Well fuck I'm gonna give up on Theorymon forever.

I didn't bother running calcs to back up my statement about Pert. My sincerest apologies.

 

[UU ALL DAY]

Honestly you have checks such as scarfers and mega aero for mega zam, but you have to sak things to bring them in. For example if you had a scarf mien and band victini. You would have to sak victini to a shadow ball to bring in scarf mien safely. Mega zam doesn't really have many defencive checks at all, the only ones being slowking (which is rare asf) and probably some other random crap. While slowking, bulky nidoqueen and gligar can all switch in to luc withought you having to sak something. The fact that you have to continuously sak pokemon to bring in a check to mega zam (which can switch out and then wreak havoc later) while there are 2 or three solid switch in's to luc make it less borked. Im not saying luc is bad, its good as, but mega zams combination of ridiculous speed and sp.attack aswell as psyshock to get past all special walls and good coveredge in shadow ball, focust blast, energy ball dazzling gleam ect make it the most broken and unbalanced pokemon in the current meta.

What I was saying was for Megazam, it is easily revenged and pivoted (Switch in a resist to its relatively predictable movepool), whereas Lucario isn't as easily revenged because of its priority. Things such as Scarf Chandelure and Cobalion beat Lucario in a pivoted or safe switch in, but other common revenge killers, such as Mienshao or Darmanitan, cannot beat a +2 Lucario. This is much unlike Mega zam, which can be pivoted into something that can immediately force it out. For example, if you have a Florges in on Zam, switch in a Scarf Tini on the predicted Psyshock.

I'm not saying it's easy, but I am saying that Megazam is more susceptible in terms of being forced right back out, where as a Lucario that gets a free switch can basically 6/0 teams that doesn't have a bulky scarfer or a mon that can beat Espeed/BP.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

A team that lets lucario gets a free setup and gets 6-0 in return is kinda of a shit team tbh. I have no clue what offensive mon can lucario ever setup or force out since its slow, frail, and is weak to the most common types in the tier and bulkier teams will have shit like hippowdon, slowbro (run fire blast to be sure), bulky mega aero (who also fits on offense), sableye and stuff like that. Alakazam is the only pokemon in the tier who is even remotely potentially broken, and im not sure you know that but alakazam learns calm mind and unlike lucario it has actual opportunities to setup against any kind of team due to its huge speed. Of course alakazam is very vulnerable to scarf users and priority so i wouldnt exactly say its so obviously broken as people are making it out to be. To be fair the thing im having trouble with in this meta is smash pass and im quite puzzled why it hasnt been looked at yet.

 

[Meru]

doge + doublade 2 strong

 

[Ernesto]

MAero + Mothra + RH Slowbro >>> Dog + Sword imo

If you have any doubts, watch this carcinogenic game :o

 

[UU ALL DAY]

lucario being immune to tspikes, 4x resistant to SR, and possess pretty nifty typing doesn't really make it difficult to get a free turn of set up. It can come in on predicted knock offs and the likes, and don't give me any arguments that people just won't use knock off. this is gen 6 where knock off is the most retarded move to spam.

a double switch when someone switches in a fat mon, like snorlax or blissey would probably be optimal, but idk apparently any team that allows any mon to set up is apparently trash

 

[RyanKoopa]

MAero + Mothra + RH Slowbro >>> Dog + Sword imo

If you have any doubts, watch this carcinogenic game :o

I don't understand, what's wrong with that game?

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

lucario being immune to tspikes, 4x resistant to SR, and possess pretty nifty typing doesn't really make it difficult to get a free turn of set up. It can come in on predicted knock offs and the likes, and don't give me any arguments that people just won't use knock off. this is gen 6 where knock off is the most retarded move to spam.

a double switch when someone switches in a fat mon, like snorlax or blissey would probably be optimal, but idk apparently any team that allows any mon to set up is apparently trash

No, any team that gets 6-0 is. The teams lucario can ''theorically'' 6-0 with boosted extreme speeds are the ones he cant setup on making this a moot point. Its a good pokemon but far from broken and definitely not close to alakazam.

 

[Kingpoleon]

Honestly, there shouldn't have been an argument about MegaZam to begin with. A Pokemon with stats akin to Deoxys-A has no fucking business down in UU. You can argue that it isn't quite the same due to lack of items, but a Pokemon who hits as hard as a Specs neutral Base 115 or an LO neutral Base 140 while still outpacing nearly all of unboosted UU with a neutral nature is just flat out toxic. The fact that people had to pull out obscure shit like AV Umbreon is just a further testament to the aforementioned statements. I applaud whoever pulled out the AV Umbreon post. Although it sounded stupid, it actually is a decent fact to testify how bullshit Alakazite is.

I don't know how you guys feel, but I predict that Swampert is going to rise in usage. I frankly haven't experienced the meta yet to make a definite conclusion, but based on what's given, the standard Tank Swampert can easily check both Luke and Infernapes without Grass Knot fairly well.

I'm not arguing about Mega-Alakzam. Normal Alakazam is what I thought he was talking about in the post that I quoted. I then admitted I should have edited it. We have nothing to argue about now so please stop.

No, any team that gets 6-0 is. The teams lucario can ''theorically'' 6-0 with boosted extreme speeds are the ones he cant setup on making this a moot point. Its a good pokemon but far from broken and definitely not close to alakazam.

Mega-Alakazam or normal? Either is closer to broken than Lucario, but I just wanted to clarify.

AV umbreon makes that whole post invalid by taking away all of your credibility. which was like 0 anyway

Thanks for being so polite with your personal attacks. Can nobody say anything about the rest of my ORIGINAL post?

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Considering Megas are just sets and alakazam is a huge threat even with a focus sash i will always refer to it by its actual name unless im talking about specifc sets.

 

[Thanks Brock Obama]

I'm not arguing about Mega-Alakzam. Normal Alakazam is what I thought he was talking about in the post that I quoted. I then admitted I should have edited it. We have nothing to argue about now so please stop.

Ok, did you skip my thoughts on your Moltres and Jellicent suggestions? You can go back and read those and reply if you like, between that post and what everyone said about AV Umbreon the whole post you made has been discussed really.

To reiterate, I think Moltres is good, but not great, since adding a 4x SR weakness to a team is not something you do lightly since it requires you to keep the field clear constantly. You can say that hazards are easier to clear this gen, but rapid spinning and defogging pretty much kills all of your momentum, so you can't assume the field will always be clear when you need to bring Moltres in.

As for Jellicent, I'll reiterate that the set you suggested is just outclassed. You're using Cursed Body over Jelli's preferred ability(water absorb) for what? That maybe if a Volc that happens to carry Giga drain comes in on you he might have Giga Drain disabled? You've taken away Jelli's great ability for a maybe and a might right there. Its not that the Jelli set you made isn't capable of doing its job, its just that most teams would rather run better bulky water types like Suicune and Slowbro, who provide much more for the team as a whole than your Jelli set does.