kamikaze
The King Of Games
Welcome to the sixth Suspect Test of SM Doubles OU! Snorlax has not really had a place on the center stage of Doubles OU until Generation 7 rolled around. Similar to Kangaskhan before it, Snorlax can thrive in the generation 7 metagame due to increase in Fairy types which has discouraged the use of Fighting types. Movepool and Ability wise Snorlax did not get anything too notable in Generation 7 beyond single target Ground coverage in High Horsepower. The biggest change that helped Snorlax rise up in viability are the arrival of the 50% pinch berries which only healed 12.5% in prior generations. Snorlax's Gluttony Ability isnt anything new but it enables Snorlax to eat these pinch berries when its health drops below half as opposed to other pokemon needing to drop to a quarter of their health. This combined with Recycle enables Snorlax to have a reliable form of recovery for half its health any time it drops below half health. Snorlax's common sets in DOU are setup with either Curse or Belly Drum. Curse was the most popular set throughout SM but Belly Drum saw increased usage when USUM came out. Players discovered how to abuse the immediate offense pressure of a +6 Belly Drum Snorlax. Though it could be seen in some cases supported by redirection or Shadow Tag Gothitelle, Snorlax found its place on teams being a massive threat even without support due its self sustaining recovery move and inherent massive bulk. Due to the immediate rebirth of Snorlax after the banning of Marshadow, some players have also began using Clear Smog, Knock Off, and Haze, as well as some techs that previously dropped in usage during the generation shift such as like Taunt and Will-o-Wisp to try to combat Snorlax. This suspect will analyze Snorlax's impact on the metagame and whether it should stay in the tier.
As usual, the only requirements to vote for the suspect are the ladder points required further below on the post. There are NO posting requirements; still, we advise everyone to actually read the arguments others present for and against Snorlax's overbearing metagame presence (or lack thereof) and still attempt to participate in discussion on this thread. A sheer volume of people saying one thing or another will change nobody's opinion so make sure you're actually doing something to make people think.
Important Info!: The ladder will only be open for one straight single session of nine days. This is different than our previous suspect system we were running with 2 separate small length ladder sessions.
Ladder Period
Start: Saturday 2/24 12:01 am (GMT -5)
End: Sunday 3/4 11:59 pm (GMT -5)
Snorlax will be allowed on the suspect ladder.Start: Saturday 2/24 12:01 am (GMT -5)
End: Sunday 3/4 11:59 pm (GMT -5)
We will not be using COIL for this suspect. One will instead satisfy the following criteria in order to qualify to vote....GXE > 80.0
GXE + battle count ≥ 120
For example, a player who has a GXE of 80 and plays 40 battles will qualify to vote.
Please be wary and ladder with your own accounts, whether it be your main account or your alts. Do not under any circumstances ladder with an account that either belongs to someone else or you share with someone else. Any suspicious accounts found that are submitted for reqs will be voided and infracted for.
Thoughts from the Council:
I believe Snorlax is one of the driving forces of the current metagame. Prior to the Swagger ban we saw a lot of slow setup with Curse and Swagger. Marshadow ended up having an impact significantly dropping Snorlax usage as players didnt seem to feel as comfortable with using it anymore. This somewhat changed near the end of Marshadow meta prior to its ban and we did see some Snorlax tear through teams despite the opposing team having a Marshadow. After the Marshadow ban, a big change happened with Players opting to use the more committal setup move in Belly Drum.
The simple buff that Snorlax got this generation with the new 50% pinch berries existing has allowed it to become a setup pokemon with reliable recovery thanks to Recycle, similar in fashion to CM Cresselia in Generation 6. Unlike CM Cress, Snorlax has a lot more immediate offensive pressure due to its greater offensive stat and access to a high base power in Return, but the big thing it has is Belly Drum to max out its attack stat immediately in one turn just like Azumarill previously has been known for. I think there is a severe danger when you combine a Setup mon that can provide almost immediate offensive pressure while also having self sustainability with both its incredible 160/65/110 defenses and reliable 50% healing. There arent too many reliable ways to OHKO Snorlax and as such it often forces double targets for not just one turn but multiple in some cases because of the Berry activating.
Some people are opting to use Haze, Taunt, Knock Off, Clear Smog and Will-o-Wisp a lot more due to how much of a threat Snorlax can be if it gets its wheels rolling, but even despite this I have seen Snorlax still able to walk away with the game in some cases with the right support. Regarding support we occasionally see redirection but we saw a big rise in Gothitelle due to Level 51's popularizing it in DOU. Goth providing Heal Pulse, Trick Room, and abusing Shadow Tag to get an incredibly good setup opportunity to walk away with the game made it so playing vs GothLax was on an extreme tight rope where you could not allow the opponent to get in the correct switchins or you will be abused by the combination, which was often paired with Snarl and Intimidate support to make the setup process even easier. Even beyond Lax's pairing with redirection or Gothitelle, it found its way naturally on teams with no super specific supporting mon and was still able to do its job due to its very much self reliant nature of setup and healing that I mentioned prior.
I dont believe this pokemon should stay in Doubles OU due to the nature of how much of an immediate threat it can become at very little cost forcing one to be extremely careful when taking KO's and allowing switches; its bulk which makes it extremely difficulty to ko even after setting up; and its ability to fulfill its role of setting up and tearing through a team with or without support in some cases even despite supposed counterplay being used against it.
The simple buff that Snorlax got this generation with the new 50% pinch berries existing has allowed it to become a setup pokemon with reliable recovery thanks to Recycle, similar in fashion to CM Cresselia in Generation 6. Unlike CM Cress, Snorlax has a lot more immediate offensive pressure due to its greater offensive stat and access to a high base power in Return, but the big thing it has is Belly Drum to max out its attack stat immediately in one turn just like Azumarill previously has been known for. I think there is a severe danger when you combine a Setup mon that can provide almost immediate offensive pressure while also having self sustainability with both its incredible 160/65/110 defenses and reliable 50% healing. There arent too many reliable ways to OHKO Snorlax and as such it often forces double targets for not just one turn but multiple in some cases because of the Berry activating.
Some people are opting to use Haze, Taunt, Knock Off, Clear Smog and Will-o-Wisp a lot more due to how much of a threat Snorlax can be if it gets its wheels rolling, but even despite this I have seen Snorlax still able to walk away with the game in some cases with the right support. Regarding support we occasionally see redirection but we saw a big rise in Gothitelle due to Level 51's popularizing it in DOU. Goth providing Heal Pulse, Trick Room, and abusing Shadow Tag to get an incredibly good setup opportunity to walk away with the game made it so playing vs GothLax was on an extreme tight rope where you could not allow the opponent to get in the correct switchins or you will be abused by the combination, which was often paired with Snarl and Intimidate support to make the setup process even easier. Even beyond Lax's pairing with redirection or Gothitelle, it found its way naturally on teams with no super specific supporting mon and was still able to do its job due to its very much self reliant nature of setup and healing that I mentioned prior.
I dont believe this pokemon should stay in Doubles OU due to the nature of how much of an immediate threat it can become at very little cost forcing one to be extremely careful when taking KO's and allowing switches; its bulk which makes it extremely difficulty to ko even after setting up; and its ability to fulfill its role of setting up and tearing through a team with or without support in some cases even despite supposed counterplay being used against it.
Simply, my opinion on Snorlax is that it is too dominant for the Doubles OU metagame. Its ability to just eat up most attacks with ease and its ability to set up and do damage quickly is something that the meta isn't equipped to handle. It's really too much of a threat in-game as there's few in the metagame that can actually threaten it; its high bulk, recovery, and typing that grants it a weakness to Fighting, a type discouraged in this meta, gives it little counterplay that can actually stop it from just boosting so easily. With positive matchups against most of the meta, it can be quite simple for Snorlax to just have its way with teams. Its ability to just BD / Curse up + constantly heal itself with Recycle lends it the ability to smash past teams on its own. Its ability to boost up and recover + the lack of actual threats gives it the ease of play that allows it to become the ultimate wincon of the metagame. The dominance of Snorlax has warped part of the meta already. I personally find it ludicrous that SubTox Aegi is being run in this meta with Finis due to Lax being just that too good; on another note, teams are forced to run multiple checks to it just not to get run over. The strain Snorlax puts in building and its strength in-game is something that makes me think of Snorlax as banworthy.
One common question we get every suspect is: "This has been around for so long, why is it only being suspected now?", with various arguments appended to the end generally to show that the said suspect is not broken. It's interesting to note that Snorlax, or more specifically Goth/Lax/Mane, didn't rise to prominence until January this year, shortly after the Marshadow ban, despite all of its components being legal since the start of the SM format. This is probably because prior to the Swagger ban, most players saw self-Swagger + Curse as being able to boost Snorlax's Attack "fast enough"; furthermore, self-Swagger + Zygarde was a notable and fairly common threat in the format which was able to outdamage the healing of a Belly Drum Snorlax, and before its ban Kangaskhan was able to consistently do upwards of 40% to a Snorlax regardless of its boosts, making Belly Drum Snorlax a pretty uncommon option back then. The Swagger ban then occurred after Marshadow's release, by which point Snorlax was extremely difficult to use anyway.
Ever since Marshadow's ban from the format, though, Snorlax has been one of the most controlling presences in the format. One of the main reasons hard setup teams (like Goth/Mane/Lax) tend to not be overpowering in a format is because they tend to be susceptible to a random critical hit here or there, or a random freeze, which is further amplified by the high number of hax-free turns they need to fully set up. Snorlax gets around these issues with a single-turn setup move which perfectly complements its ability as well as its high defensive stats, which are augmented by the fact that it doesn't need to invest into its offense as much as most Pokemon, since Belly Drum does all that for it. Take, for example, the Week 4 game between miltankmilk and stax, where stax gets two critical hits and a surprise Low Kick on Snorlax, correctly pulls off two turns of Ally Switch, and gets a one-turn freeze on Gothitelle, but still isn't able to beat Snorlax (due in part to his lack of foresight to capitalise on the Gothitelle freeze).
I think the replay showcases two tiers of how good Snorlax has become. Firstly, its pull on the metagame is huge: it demands notable levels of counterplay during the teambuilding phase, as can be seen by the use of Low Kick Mew, which is objectively a suboptimal set in all other aspects besides its ability to check Snorlax (and even that wasn't exactly sufficient given how the game turned out). We've seen this in other sets, too: Substitute / Toxic Aegislash, for example, has seen a rise in usage this SPL primarily as a way to outdamage Snorlax in the long run. The extent to which Snorlax warps the metagame around it is, to say the least, a little concerning.
Secondly, it shows how resilient Snorlax is as a playstyle. The fact that Snorlax is commonly run with Trick Room (and has such a low Speed stat) really decreases the amount of viable counterplay to it, and its high defensive stats, especially after bulk investment, mean that it's fairly hax-resistent too, as far as setup builds go. The fact that it's often paired with a Heal Pulse user, and also that it's a relatively fast setup, also lowers its vulnerability to Knock Off or Toxic, since in the former scenario it can continue to take KOs and in the latter it can set up fairly quickly again with minor support. Even Toxic isn't a great answer to it since its +6 Attack allows it to take quick knockouts before Toxic overpowers it.
I should note that the reason the DOU Council has chosen to suspect Snorlax instead of Gothitelle is that Gothitelle is generally not broken if the Pokemon it's supporting isn't capable of both taking and outputting damage at significant rates. Compare Belly Drum Snorlax, for example, to the next best Belly Drum user in Azumarill, which can't use a Pinch Berry like Snorlax does, relies far more on an ally's Heal Pulse, carries significantly less bulk and a worse defensive typing, and hits with Aqua Jet instead of the stronger Return. Without intending to insert bias, I think it's at least clear to see that Snorlax far outclasses all other Pokemon which could potentially play a similar role to it.
I personally believe Snorlax is unhealthy for DOU and hope to see some interesting arguments for and against its inclusion or removal from this format.
Ever since Marshadow's ban from the format, though, Snorlax has been one of the most controlling presences in the format. One of the main reasons hard setup teams (like Goth/Mane/Lax) tend to not be overpowering in a format is because they tend to be susceptible to a random critical hit here or there, or a random freeze, which is further amplified by the high number of hax-free turns they need to fully set up. Snorlax gets around these issues with a single-turn setup move which perfectly complements its ability as well as its high defensive stats, which are augmented by the fact that it doesn't need to invest into its offense as much as most Pokemon, since Belly Drum does all that for it. Take, for example, the Week 4 game between miltankmilk and stax, where stax gets two critical hits and a surprise Low Kick on Snorlax, correctly pulls off two turns of Ally Switch, and gets a one-turn freeze on Gothitelle, but still isn't able to beat Snorlax (due in part to his lack of foresight to capitalise on the Gothitelle freeze).
I think the replay showcases two tiers of how good Snorlax has become. Firstly, its pull on the metagame is huge: it demands notable levels of counterplay during the teambuilding phase, as can be seen by the use of Low Kick Mew, which is objectively a suboptimal set in all other aspects besides its ability to check Snorlax (and even that wasn't exactly sufficient given how the game turned out). We've seen this in other sets, too: Substitute / Toxic Aegislash, for example, has seen a rise in usage this SPL primarily as a way to outdamage Snorlax in the long run. The extent to which Snorlax warps the metagame around it is, to say the least, a little concerning.
Secondly, it shows how resilient Snorlax is as a playstyle. The fact that Snorlax is commonly run with Trick Room (and has such a low Speed stat) really decreases the amount of viable counterplay to it, and its high defensive stats, especially after bulk investment, mean that it's fairly hax-resistent too, as far as setup builds go. The fact that it's often paired with a Heal Pulse user, and also that it's a relatively fast setup, also lowers its vulnerability to Knock Off or Toxic, since in the former scenario it can continue to take KOs and in the latter it can set up fairly quickly again with minor support. Even Toxic isn't a great answer to it since its +6 Attack allows it to take quick knockouts before Toxic overpowers it.
I should note that the reason the DOU Council has chosen to suspect Snorlax instead of Gothitelle is that Gothitelle is generally not broken if the Pokemon it's supporting isn't capable of both taking and outputting damage at significant rates. Compare Belly Drum Snorlax, for example, to the next best Belly Drum user in Azumarill, which can't use a Pinch Berry like Snorlax does, relies far more on an ally's Heal Pulse, carries significantly less bulk and a worse defensive typing, and hits with Aqua Jet instead of the stronger Return. Without intending to insert bias, I think it's at least clear to see that Snorlax far outclasses all other Pokemon which could potentially play a similar role to it.
I personally believe Snorlax is unhealthy for DOU and hope to see some interesting arguments for and against its inclusion or removal from this format.
While I don’t think Snorlax in and of itself is inherently broken, I don’t think anyone disagrees that the way that the metagame has shaped itself around Snorlax has led to an unhealthy environment. Snorlax has a few partners that make setting it up a bit too easy, which, in my opinion, promotes incredibly lazy habits both in teambuilding and in actually playing games. Gothitelle in particular allows players to mindlessly spam Intimidate/Snarl/Heal Pulse/what have you until they get a free switch into Snorlax and can set up a Belly Drum for free. While it may seem like Gothitelle is the problem based on this description, I don’t think Gothitelle itself is an issue unless it has something busted to support. Gothitelle might still see some use if Snorlax is gone, Snorlax being stupid is what gives Gothitelle its merit right now. Back to Snorlax though. The reason I think Snorlax is worthy of a suspect is that given the right position, which is frankly pretty easy to find, it becomes something of an unstoppable force. Goth + Lax in particular is the issue in my opinion, but like I mentioned earlier I think Snorlax can be pretty simply identified as the key suspect in this trial. I’m not going to come right out and say that Snorlax deserves to be banned because I don’t think I’ve fully gotten to that point yet, but I definitely think a suspect test is appropriate and I’m looking forward to seeing what everybody else thinks.
Snorlax is one of the biggest presence in the DOU metagame. With huge initial bulk thanks to the Gluttony + Pinch berry, lack of weaknesses, and reliable recovery with Recycle, Snorlax finds plenty of opportunity to completely take over the game. The curse set takes minimal damage from almost everything in the metagame while its counters struggle to outlast it. Even more problematic is the Belly Drum set, which can take a KO every turn once it is set up in Trick Room. Granted, Snorlax does usually take at least 1 turn to set up and become a big offensive threat. This means that there are ways of shutting down this Pokemon, such as Clear Smog, Knock Off, Encore, Taunt, Spore, as well as just nuking down the Pokemon from above half HP with Z-moves and offensive powerhouses like Deoxys-A. However, these counterplay are often not enough to stop Snorlax from warping the metagame on itself and dominating the game with minimal support. Even before setting up, the fact that Snorlax can win the game after a turn of setup means that it demands immediate attention. As a result , most supporters pair incredibly well with Snorlax, which can singlehandedly win matches if paired with some key supportive mechanics such as Trick Room, Redirection, Shadow Tag, Heal Pulse, and Transform. In addition, Snorlax is highly splashable and the Curse set can do its job with minimal support. As a result, many people believe Snorlax is too strong and yields too much reward for too little investment, and deserves a suspect test.
Snorlax is a pokemon that in an earlier stage of the meta I probably would have defended and tried to save from banning. A seemingly low powered pokemon with good set up options, doesn’t seem like its that difficult to check. But in the post-Marshadow meta Snorlax has been anything but easy to handle. The ‘gothlax’ archetype specifically is far too easy to pilot and difficult to handle for the DOU meta. Snorlax as a set up sweeper is incredibly hard to stop from setting up and equally as hard to revenge after it has set up. Snorlax often gives up protect in favor of coverage, and even while lacking Protect it becomes very difficult to punish this with the aid of Shadow Tag or Intimidate. Yes, counterplay exists to lax but its incredibly restrictive and often requires multiple pokemon and multiple moveslots specifically dedicated to checking snorlax (haze, sacred sword on aegis, toxic) which can also be subverted by high level play by the snorlax user or even just the other 5 pokemon accompanying Snorlax. Snorlax is incredibly burdensome on teambuilding and in-game play and I definitely believe it warrants a BAN.
As the person with likely the most experience using Snorlax in both tour and ladder play, I do not think Snorlax is banworthy. The main problem with Snorlax is players’ unwillingness to adapt to it. I’ll note that I’ll only speak on the “gothlax” archetype only since it is where I assume this suspect is coming from and where I have the most experience regarding Snorlax. I can see the notion that Snorlax or “gothlax” to be more specific is “broken” through its com bination of bulk, power and recovery. However people fail to note the fragility of such teams. From my experience of such teams it is often that if the snorlax is neutered then the team essentially falls apart due to how invested it is to keeping and preserving it. And since the more common belly drum set requires delicate timing to pull off I think people are overstating how difficult it is to stop. Start incorporating techs like phazing moves, eliminating pokemon that give it free rein to set up, having an actual plan to prevent the set up, and take advantage of its immediate lack of offense. Though these teams are effective they are also predictable and exploitable.
Snorlax has been a controversial presence in the metagame during a couple of different eras, and if anything it’s surprising that this is the first time it’s been put up for a suspect. The Fall of Fighting-types™ has left only Scrafty, Marshadow, and Terrakion as ever being viable; now, Marshadow’s been banned and Terrakion’s a very rare sight. Snorlax’s multitude of positive traits - its incredible bulk, solid healing option in Gluttony + Figy Berry, and two great options for setup in BD and Curse - pairs incredibly well with this pseudo lack of weaknesses. Especially in tandem with Gothitelle and Mega Manectric, the Belly Drum set was what made me tune in to Snorlax’s potential to be unhealthy for the tier. Trapping and the lowering of both Attack and Special Attack gives Snorlax the opportunity to set up, and while Intimidate or Knock Off could be reliable checks to the slow setup of the Curse set, Belly Drum simply plows through those answers. This development of Snorlax as a metagame titan is fairly recent, so it could be argued that it will be able to adapt and Snorlax will fade into being more manageable. However, I’ve already seen the grasping at straws some SPL players have resorted to in an attempt to avoid losing to GothLax. In my personal perspective, these reaches have gone past the line of creativity and reached unviability - resorting to multiple techs on a team for one specific Pokemon that are otherwise near useless. For the above reasons, I’m currently leaning towards voting to Ban Snorlax from this tier. I’m not entirely set in this opinion yet, so I’ll be reading and hopefully responding to any posts that I think are moving discussion in the right direction to helping community members come to an educated decision.
Remember to keep an open mind in this suspect! Please respect the opinions of others; remember, just because you believe in your side does not mean the other is wrong!
Have Fun
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