np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[Raikaria]

In all honesty, I think we should bring another pokemon to the discussion table.

It's easy to forget defensive threats with a metagame so filled with offense, but there is one defensive pokemon which I feel needs a look at.

Ferrothorn

It dosen't take a second glance to see the effects Ferrothorn has had on the Metagame. It's probobly the most used pokemon on the server. You see random pokemon carrying HP Fire/Fire Attack JUST for Ferrothorn, ones that usually do not even think about carrying a Hidden Power.

I've seen Tyranitar run Superpower. Kingdra, amount others, run HP Fire. Slowbro run Flamethrower. None of these would ever have crossed the minds of players in Gen 4.

Ferrothorn nessessitates that your team carrys a Fire or Fighting attack, and if you lose your Fire/Fighting attack, you lose the game. Simple as that. Ferrothorn can stall you until the cows come home, with both defenses easily able of hitting over 300, at the same time, an excellent typing, and a decent HP stat.

Ferrothorn can also SURVIVE most Fighting moves [It takes something like CB Azumarill's Superpower to kill a Sp.Def Ferrothorn...], and almost all Fire moves in the rain.

However, I hear you cry, he has no reliable recovery! But he has Leech Seed and Protect and Leftovers. With his defensive stats, Ferrothorn can easily stall.

Ferrothorn can also take a more offensive role. Even with no investment, his attack is 224, far higher than most defensive pokemon. He has a BP 120 Grass STAB, and what will often be a BP 120 STAB Gyro Ball. Ferrothorn hits HARD. Then there's a Curse set, which makes use of Ferro's bulk, Leech Seed, and his two STABS to sweep with a wall. Even one Curse boosts univested defense to above 400, and an invested attack stat to almost 350.

Then, there's the support. With such massive bulk and switch-causing ability, Ferrothorn can effortlessly set up Spikes and/or Stealth Rock. He also has Thunder Wave to use with impunity.

Finally, Ferrothorn is almost immune to Stall teams. A last poke Ferro is not going to fall to stall, until it starts to struggle. It's immune to Toxic, and Leech Seed will recover it's HP faster than it will lose it.
---

Long Story Short:

I belive that Ferrothorn may require a suspect test because:

He requires a Fire/Fighting move on all teams to take him down, if this move is lost, you lose, because you will NOT take Ferrothorn down. Even then, he will not be OHKO'ed unless the attack is obscenely powerful.

He can effortlessly set up hazards/Thunder Wave with the switches he causes

He can deal a massive amount of damage for a wall, enough to make setting up on him unviable.


It takes a special kind of defensive mon to be able to wall a large proportion of both the physical and special sides of this metagame.

Oh, and I am aware that without Ferro, Drizzle would almost certainly go, but, I'm really starting to think that Ferrothorn is suspect. You lose if you lose your Fire/Fighting attacker. Simple as that.

 

[SJCrew]

I don't remember saying the metagame was stable. I merely suggested that the metagame might stablize on its own if we took a break from banning and let the meta play out over some time. Fun is subjective, and your desire to ladder doesn't reflect the overall state of the meta. Let the bans in place do something before you decide if it's fun or not.

We already know what the metagame looks like with Blaziken banned and we don't need an extra month to infer its effects. Drizzle + Swift Swim has been in effect for a while and we have enough information to tell what its effects were. An extra month won't accomplish anything but wasted time on a metagame so many people are discontent with. If the neutral camp needs another month to decide what changes they'd like to see in the OU metagame, they can do it on their own time while the active voting pool makes these changes for them.

It's obvious that you want those topics banned and think they are unbalanced.

It's cool how you just ignored everything I said, and put words into my mouth. Let's try this again.

I, however, do think that we'll have a better, even more competitive metagame if our attacks stopped randomly missing

I want something done about Garchomp.

and we didn't see Politoed and the genies on every other team outmuscling our best efforts

Drizzle is a broken ability.

'Leaving it up to the voting pool' means 'I'm neutral on the rest', which really just translates to "I'm casting my ballot to Abstain on everything I do not necessarily feel the need to keep nor ban."

I know some people have hell with Deoxys-S, but I don't because I have a Rapid Spinner on every team. And every time Gorebyss tries to pass something, the Pokemon she switches in gets fucked up by my counter strategy. I don't expect everyone to play like me, but I see why they have trouble with it, so I vote neither for nor against it.

It takes a special kind of defensive mon to be able to wall a large proportion of both the physical and special sides of this metagame.

We call that a "good Pokemon". Also, some of the best Spikers and spinners in this game beat it with zero effort. Skarmory can set up alongside it, or Taunt it to keep it from doing anything. There's absolutely nothing it can do about Forretress; free setup, free spins. Hitmontop 2HKOs with CC and nullifies all of its hard work with Rapid Spin. Heatran gets free subs and Magnezone removes it from the game. Does this seem like a suspect to you?

 

[kobo1d]

I'm personally of the opinion Garchomp's time is up.

Ever since KG's RMT, every other team is paralysis spam + sub sd chomp. It just plain wins games.

 

[TheFourthChaser]

Gonna respond to "old" stuff first,

About weather

I actually explained in an earlier post some of the problems and you just didn't read it, "I don't know why I should take your points seriously". With weather the way it is now a huge amount of battles become keep your weather mon alive games and whoever loses it first will lose that game, just thinking about that one problem itself sounds like good enough reason and then you remember, there is more than just that.

I also noticed that nobody that plays to vote plays in between Suspect Tests. Seriously? Why are you voting if you aren't going to actually play the game? These frequent Suspect Tests are making the game more about analyzing what's powerful than being about ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME YOU ARE TRYING TO FIX, so people have the mindset of "play to ban" instead of "play to win".

How do you know they aren't on alts?

Anyone looking for single pokemon to stop the gorebyss strategy is doing it wrong. Not only does no such pokemon exist, but you should be trying to outplay your opponent from the get go the minute you see what their team is. That's what I have been doing and I only lost to it once because I messed up in assuming how my opponent would play.

Sounds like you forgot about Team Preview which I found makes things much easier for the Smash Pass user, you SHOULD be trying to play your opponent from minute one but so should your opponent.

Ninetales leads. Deo-S uses taunt. I switch to heatran as it sets up a screen/hazard. I flame charge up as it taunts me expecting stealth rock. Continue flame charging until Deo-S is dead. Gorebyss comes in. At this point, I'm faster than a +2 gorebyss either way. Kill it in two hits. The chain is ruined.

They could attack with Deo-S, revenge Heatran, then set up and pass. If Deo-S switches right out from Heatran into Gorebyss then they'll be able to BP (assuming Light Screen was set up but since Team Preview exists and they're facing a Sun team, it should be up on the first turn). A team using Shell Smash Gorebyss will have a mon with a higher base speed than Heatran, Latios and Garchomp are common.

Sure, it isn't super easy to stop, but it can be played around if you stop and think to yourself, "hm. I know exactly what's going to happen. Now how can my team, as it is, do something to stop it?"

Again, the opponent should be doing the same thing.

Think this is my longest post lol

 

[JSND]

In all honesty, I think we should bring another pokemon to the discussion table.

It's easy to forget defensive threats with a metagame so filled with offense, but there is one defensive pokemon which I feel needs a look at.

Ferrothorn

It dosen't take a second glance to see the effects Ferrothorn has had on the Metagame. It's probobly the most used pokemon on the server. You see random pokemon carrying HP Fire/Fire Attack JUST for Ferrothorn, ones that usually do not even think about carrying a Hidden Power.

I've seen Tyranitar run Superpower. Kingdra, amount others, run HP Fire. Slowbro run Flamethrower. None of these would ever have crossed the minds of players in Gen 4.

Ferrothorn nessessitates that your team carrys a Fire or Fighting attack, and if you lose your Fire/Fighting attack, you lose the game. Simple as that. Ferrothorn can stall you until the cows come home, with both defenses easily able of hitting over 300, at the same time, an excellent typing, and a decent HP stat.

Ferrothorn can also SURVIVE most Fighting moves [It takes something like CB Azumarill's Superpower to kill a Sp.Def Ferrothorn...], and almost all Fire moves in the rain.

However, I hear you cry, he has no reliable recovery! But he has Leech Seed and Protect and Leftovers. With his defensive stats, Ferrothorn can easily stall.

Ferrothorn can also take a more offensive role. Even with no investment, his attack is 224, far higher than most defensive pokemon. He has a BP 120 Grass STAB, and what will often be a BP 120 STAB Gyro Ball. Ferrothorn hits HARD. Then there's a Curse set, which makes use of Ferro's bulk, Leech Seed, and his two STABS to sweep with a wall. Even one Curse boosts univested defense to above 400, and an invested attack stat to almost 350.

Then, there's the support. With such massive bulk and switch-causing ability, Ferrothorn can effortlessly set up Spikes and/or Stealth Rock. He also has Thunder Wave to use with impunity.

Finally, Ferrothorn is almost immune to Stall teams. A last poke Ferro is not going to fall to stall, until it starts to struggle. It's immune to Toxic, and Leech Seed will recover it's HP faster than it will lose it.
---

Long Story Short:

I belive that Ferrothorn may require a suspect test because:

He requires a Fire/Fighting move on all teams to take him down, if this move is lost, you lose, because you will NOT take Ferrothorn down. Even then, he will not be OHKO'ed unless the attack is obscenely powerful.

He can effortlessly set up hazards/Thunder Wave with the switches he causes

He can deal a massive amount of damage for a wall, enough to make setting up on him unviable.


It takes a special kind of defensive mon to be able to wall a large proportion of both the physical and special sides of this metagame.

Oh, and I am aware that without Ferro, Drizzle would almost certainly go, but, I'm really starting to think that Ferrothorn is suspect. You lose if you lose your Fire/Fighting attacker. Simple as that.

TorMcDraco"Huriccane"MeteorDusGonagall Laugh at this post as he 2HKO Ferro with gale. Kingdra using HP Fire is simply retarded and using fire on everything is adapting. Its easily abused too. And say that he beat stall crap again when you watch as Deoxys-D rape him and his messy 24 PP move

 

[Mario With Lasers]

In all honesty, I think we should bring another pokemon to the discussion table.

It's easy to forget defensive threats with a metagame so filled with offense, but there is one defensive pokemon which I feel needs a look at.

Ferrothorn

You are listing Ferrothorn's qualities, which means you think... it's pretty good. And everything you said could apply to ADV Swampert.

 

[Sy123]

Doesnt Ferrothorn lack reliable recovery? Isnt that why it hasnt been nominated for suspect testing? Even then its really easy to take it down too, I will compare it too Garchomp because I can, everybody had to run Weavile, or Mamoswine to take down Garchomp, because they had Ice priority. The thing is Ferrothorn is as slow as shit, it also lacks sturdy as well, so yeah in my opinion its basically outclassed by Skarmory

 

[JSND]

Doesnt Ferrothorn lack reliable recovery? Isnt that why it hasnt been nominated for suspect testing? Even then its really easy to take it down too, I will compare it too Garchomp because I can, everybody had to run Weavile, or Mamoswine to take down Garchomp, because they had Ice priority. The thing is Ferrothorn is as slow as shit, it also lacks sturdy as well, so yeah in my opinion its basically outclassed by Skarmory

Some people nommed it to be bashed in a way by Phil.

Phil said he wont move unlogical suspect such as Charmander or more logically Nattrei for choice in previous round

 

[666lumberjack]

Feroothron isn't outclassed by Skarmoury. In this meta, Steel/Grass>>>>>>>Steel Flying. Having a water resist on a bulky steel is A+. It also resists electric, which is obviously great. And you don't need a Fire move to kill it. The number of times it's switched into Rotom-C for me and proceeded to get burned and then be completely incabable of toughing me. The usually Leech Seed turn one, find I stay in and I'm immune, then I go to Gliscor to taunt it and prevent hazards. Also Taunt Mew which is everywhere on stall because if you don't have it or Deo-D Reuniclus will rape you shuts Ferro down 100%. Burned Power Whip does very little.

 

[Sy123]

I know my comments can be invalid sometimes but arent we agreeing on the same fact that Ferrothorn isnt broken?

 

[666lumberjack]

Yes. I just wanted to point that out.

 

[Stellar]

Suspension of the suspect test is silly. Did you not notice the four week break between the last round and this one? (March 25 - April 24)

 

[Sy123]

Thats good, I just feel uneasy about banning things so quickly. So Im quite hasty about that sort of stuff.

 

[capefeather]

I don't think that Ferrothorn is ban-worthy, but I also think that maybe it's about as legit of a "suspect" as some of the other names that have been thrown around, if not much more legit. While yes, Raikaria's post has a few holes, the general idea is there. It's a lot harder to be banned as a defensive Pokémon in general, but more than that, people tend to underestimate a Pokémon's power when it's not seen in one gigantic fireball of awesomeness.

 

[SupremeDirt]

Sounds like you guys want another Smogon Council!

dibs.

I would give almost anything for that to happen. Smogon Council was soooooooooo much better than the current system. Fuck democratic voting. I want to not have to worry about people bandwagoning to ban things because it beats their team.

 

[Hallow]

I would give almost anything for that to happen. Smogon Council was soooooooooo much better than the current system. Fuck democratic voting. I want to not have to worry about people bandwagoning to ban things because it beats their team.

Please come over to Switzerland and fix our political system that incorporates exactly this, but doesn't exclude people from voting rights.

 

[Raikaria]

I never said ban-worthy. I am stateing however, that he is probobly as much of a suspect as, say, Renkulus or Exadrill, and probobly warrants a test.

It's undeniable that Ferrothorn is great.

The thing that irks me with Ferrothorn is that you are forced to carry a strong Fire or Fighting move to defeat it. Usually multiple, because of Ferro being able to switch out to something that can counter your Fire/Fighting type.

Outside of powerful Fighting/Fire moves, Ferrothorn is very difficult to remove. Too many a time I have won a game simply because I have removed my foe's Fire/Fighting attacks, and Ferro is still alive.

Likewise, I have lost too many a game due to me losing my Fire/Fighting attacks, and Ferro still hanging around.

Also, on the 2HKO from Gale point:

Run some Sp.Def on your Ferrothorn. You are now 3HKO'ed, while you 2HKO with Gyro Ball. Either way, Tornadus can't switch in due to threat from Gyro Ball/Leech Seed turning it into a 3HKO anyway/Thunder Wave. The only move Tornadus can switch in on is Power Whip.

 

[Darusare]

I usually setup on ferrothorn
hes wrecked by taunting skarm
Ferrothorn is good when used corectly but honestly hes far from broken

now Garchomp, hes broken
his ability is insane because if you miss with an ice beam on a yache berry varient then hit after an SD or two depending if youre faster or not
an outrage can clean up nearly anything
ive been running him and he can clear up half of someones team easy
hell ive had sure lose games in which hes danced and swept
its obnoxious how easy he is to abuse

 

[Curtains]

• Ban Drizzle
• Ban Sand veil chomp
• ban dory

Then we have a balanced metagame. Its that simple. if sun gets out of hand (which it will) ban that too. Then have fun.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

How many fucking times does one have to iterate that Excadril is not broken. It is certainly the best cleaner in existence and agreat sweeper. The fact reamins that it does have several counters/checks, notably Skarmory, Gliscor, Balloon Tran, bulky Mamoswine and others. If it isnt broken, dont fucking ban it.

Sand Veil Chomp at this point os frankly a matter of opinion. I beleive it isnt broken, you beleive otherwise. (EDIT: btw, if you force it into Outraging ScarfToed revenge kills, just saying).

Same goes for Drizzle.

 

[jas61292]

So it looks like the topics of the day are Garchomp and Ferrothorn. Cool.

I hate Garchomp. Plain and simple. I just hate it. It is not fun to use. It is not fun to play against. And it is not broken. That's right: not broken. Is it really good? Yes. Can Sand Veil screw you over? Yes. But, I do not believe that is enough to say it is broken. Now, anyone who has followed my posts would know that I am very much against the current Drizzle + Swift Swim ban (for many reasons, but I won't go into full detail right now). If this ban was the be reversed I think it could additionally lower Garchomp's dominance by taking away that sand it loves so much.

Ferrothorn on the other hand, is a very different Pokemon. As has been mentioned, Ferro is very centralizing due to it forcing Pokemon to carry moves such as HP Fire just to beat it. Not only that, but the addition of rain just makes it harder to take down. Most of the problems people have with it have already been stated, so I won't repeat any more, but I will say that, while I don't necessarily think it should be banned, it is certainly more worthy of a suspect test than many other Pokemon that have been discussed.

 

[Benlisted]

Gonna respond to "old" stuff first,

I actually explained in an earlier post some of the problems and you just didn't read it, "I don't know why I should take your points seriously". With weather the way it is now a huge amount of battles become keep your weather mon alive games and whoever loses it first will lose that game, just thinking about that one problem itself sounds like good enough reason and then you remember, there is more than just that.

Ah, fair enough, I totally missed that and so apologise for flipping out on you somewhat, I just get frustrated by the amount of good players who come to this thread, say something like ban Rain kthxbai and leave, not giving their insight or reasoning at all. I shouldn'tve assumed you were one.

I'd also like to point out that as I didn't address your points, you didn't address mine in this reply, but meh lol. Anyway, I think the summation of "it comes down to whose inducer dies first" is a bit of an oversimpliciation. Yes, the person whose inducer dies first is at a huge disadvantage, but will not necessarily win if their team is so damaged that it can still fall to the opposing one. It's more of "whoever preserves the inducer and keeps the crucial parts of their team intact will beat the other" which to me doesn't sound too far different from other strategies, and to me personally I don't mind the strategy this involves, but I can see that playing it against a lot of very similar Rain or SS teams would become frustrating.


With regards to Shell Smash Gorebyss, I think banning the move in itself is a bad idea - both as it brings in another stage of complexity into the shitstorm that was going down until very recently about refining Aldaron's proposal, and because only things able to pass it are clearly broken with it. Banning any aspect of the Shell Smash BP strategy is incredibly hard anyway, since it's whether Gorebyss or the Screener who really enables the pass that is to blame (since Deo-S) is so reliable at setting them up.

I don't think that Ferrothorn is ban-worthy, but I also think that maybe it's about as legit of a "suspect" as some of the other names that have been thrown around, if not much more legit. While yes, Raikaria's post has a few holes, the general idea is there. It's a lot harder to be banned as a defensive Pokémon in general, but more than that, people tend to underestimate a Pokémon's power when it's not seen in one gigantic fireball of awesomeness.

I also kinda agree with this, the amount people use random Fire moves now is almost solely due to how hard Ferro is to remove without them. I don't claim to be able to tell whether this kinda centralisation indactes brokenness, but it's certainly probably suspect worthy as capefeather says.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I have to kind of agree iwth that last statement by jas. Ferrothorn I dont beleive is broken via support clause but its certainly more suspect worthy that Reuniclus (on a side note it is my belief that if you ban all weathers you will instantly see a metagame dominated by reuniclus and Conkeldurr).

 

[Curtains]

Anyone that says garchomp is not broken is full of it or just has not played at all. Sand veil is a serious issue that makes offensive teams basically obsolete and makes the metagame less diverse and stall driven.

 

[JSND]

I never said ban-worthy. I am stateing however, that he is probobly as much of a suspect as, say, Renkulus or Exadrill, and probobly warrants a test.

It's undeniable that Ferrothorn is great.

The thing that irks me with Ferrothorn is that you are forced to carry a strong Fire or Fighting move to defeat it. Usually multiple, because of Ferro being able to switch out to something that can counter your Fire/Fighting type.

Outside of powerful Fighting/Fire moves, Ferrothorn is very difficult to remove. Too many a time I have won a game simply because I have removed my foe's Fire/Fighting attacks, and Ferro is still alive.

Likewise, I have lost too many a game due to me losing my Fire/Fighting attacks, and Ferro still hanging around.

Also, on the 2HKO from Gale point:

Run some Sp.Def on your Ferrothorn. You are now 3HKO'ed, while you 2HKO with Gyro Ball. Either way, Tornadus can't switch in due to threat from Gyro Ball/Leech Seed turning it into a 3HKO anyway/Thunder Wave. The only move Tornadus can switch in on is Power Whip.

Dude im just implying you exagerate his bulk.
Okay he cant 2HKO with that but some Normal effective attack can still beat him rather easily. His low speed and no reliable recovery sometime dont help too.

AND believe it or not my nattrei is beaten by a fucking SD scizor WITH bullet punch. Yeah so bulky is useless when youre set up bait.

TBH so far A broken defensive purpose mon need speed as high as lugia, phazing, reliable recovery, and reasonably good attacking power all and of course good defense all at once.
Entry hazzard is just an extra

Nattrei's position is more like Ttar. A perfect pokemon, good for both OU and Uber but is not broken. But changing the water centric metagame is worth a suspect though