np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

[AccidentalGreed]

So do you guys know the bane of a Pokemon who worked so hard and required so much set up to be extremely threatening, like a twice Shell-Break passed Latios? Or a Latias who successfully beat a Reuniclus in a Calm Mind war? A Dragonite who actually got three Dragon Dances? Yeeeeah. Sturdy Skarmory. Even though I don't use it, it pisses me off that I can't even OHKO it without Stealth Rocks on the field, and I've just wasted a White Herb or hard work in the process while being Whirlwinded.

My two cents.

As for Reuniclus, it normally runs Psychic type attack + Focus Blast. Leave HP Fire for Trick Room (suprisingly people don't expect it).

 

[XienZo]

@XienZo

I'll agree with you there. However, and this is just me nitpicking, +2 life orb neutral hp (fighting) OHKOs min/min tyranitar. It really depends on what your run in the second slot to take out checks. Hp (fighting) has a chance to ohko min/min Scizor (admitedly I know most Scizor these days run hp evs so I'm still nitpicking here.) However, hp fighting would give you trouble against Latias but you could just run Psycho Shock for that. Hrm.....

Yeah, but if you can manage 5 turns worth of set-up, you should be able to get a whole sweep out of it, not a surprise-KO-check1-and-then-get-walled-by-check2.

Psychic / anything just has bad coverage, so you have to give up CM/Reflect or just get walled by stuff.

 

[KurashiDragon]

@XienZo

At the same time though giving up reflect is just asking for a Scizor Bullet Punch to the face. Giving up CM seems kinda silly when you consider the extra power to ohko extra threats. Psychic / Fighting has great neutral coverage btw.

@AccidentalGreed

Whirlwind, roar, Dragon Tail and other phase moves are just apart of the game. I could complain until next gen that Hax keeps on fucking me in the ass but sense it's part of the game there's really nothing I can do about it. However, apart from Dragon Tail it's rather easy to find a Phasing move and prepare for it porperly. As for Dragon Tail, sub solves that issue rather well.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

@XienZo

At the same time though giving up reflect is just asking for a Scizor Bullet Punch to the face. Giving up CM seems kinda silly when you consider the extra power to ohko extra threats. Psychic / Fighting has great neutral coverage btw.

@AccidentalGreed

Whirlwind, roar, Dragon Tail and other phase moves are just apart of the game. I could complain until next gen that Hax keeps on fucking me in the ass but sense it's part of the game there's really nothing I can do about it. However, apart from Dragon Tail it's rather easy to find a Phasing move and prepare for it porperly. As for Dragon Tail, sub solves that issue rather well.

Hm, yeah, but I wasn't implying that Sturdy Skarmory or the other phazing movrs had to go away, LOL. It actually surprises me how many Dual Screen Deoxys-S actually forgo Stealth Rocks for an attacking or support move like Magic Coat, even though Skarmory is right there in the preview. That's something all Gorebyss Pass teams (or set up threats in general) have to deal with.

 

[XienZo]

@XienZo

At the same time though giving up reflect is just asking for a Scizor Bullet Punch to the face. Giving up CM seems kinda silly when you consider the extra power to ohko extra threats. Psychic / Fighting has great neutral coverage btw.

Except against nearly every single Psychic-type in existence?

It's just that it seems to be giving up A LOT in exchange for an immunity to phazing; you might as well just go to Octillery for that.

 

[Karpi]

I personally think Sturdy Skarmory contributes positively. It gives you a one time complete stop against a setup sweeper that has gotten out of hand. This way its less of "Crap, Sand Veil activated and Garchomp got in a second Swords Dance" (bad example but you get the idea)

 

[KurashiDragon]

Except against nearly every single Psychic-type in existence?

It's just that it seems to be giving up A LOT in exchange for an immunity to phazing; you might as well just go to Octillery for that.

At the same time though you net immunity to every single non attacking move in the game. No need to watch out for Roar, taunt, thunder wave, toxic and other stuff like that. It's like a sub without the need for a sub lol.

I said great neutral coverage not perfect neutral coverage.

 

[DaRkRaii]

Well the two times I did this, I brought into the wrong category. Well really my question to you is, what is your reasoning on banning Darkrai, Deoxys, Skymin, Manaphy and the combo of Drizzle and SS? BTW When I wrote the first post it was muchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh longer, (Thats what she said :P)

 

[XienZo]

Well the two times I did this, I brought into the wrong category. Well really my question to you is, what is your reasoning on banning Darkrai, Deoxys, Skymin, Manaphy and the combo of Drizzle and SS? BTW When I wrote the first post it was muchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh longer, (Thats what she said :P)

Everyone's already written their reasoning on here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84513

At the same time though you net immunity to every single non attacking move in the game. No need to watch out for Roar, taunt, thunder wave, toxic and other stuff like that. It's like a sub without the need for a sub lol.

I said great neutral coverage not perfect neutral coverage.

"Great" neutral coverage won't sweep much.

With a +2/+2/+2, though, you shouldn't be worrying about any of those besides Thunder Wave. Not to mention, you have to use up CM/Reflect to make up for the lack of protection that a sub would provide, so you're basically giving up 2 moveslots, which could be otherwise providing coverage, to have the same cover a substitute would provide.

 

[KurashiDragon]

Everyone's already written their reasoning on here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84513



"Great" neutral coverage won't sweep much.

With a +2/+2/+2, though, you shouldn't be worrying about any of those besides Thunder Wave. Not to mention, you have to use up CM/Reflect to make up for the lack of protection that a sub would provide, so you're basically giving up 2 moveslots, which could be otherwise providing coverage, to have the same cover a substitute would provide.

Psychic / Fighting breaks through most of the metagame. Apart from psychic types (The most prominent threats being Alakazam who gets destroyed by Psycho Shock, Reuniclus, and slowbro (you got me there with both of em.) and Ghost/Dark Types. everything else would break easily by the coverage.

What are you talking about. I was only comparing Magic mirror and Sub with Non attacking moves. Also once a sub is gone, it'd be rather easy to break Espeon with its low defenses. Reflect and Calm Mind increases its less than subpar bulk to an acceptable level so it can properly sweep.

 

[XienZo]

Psychic / Fighting breaks through most of the metagame. Apart from psychic types (The most prominent threats being Alakazam who gets destroyed by Psycho Shock, Reuniclus, and slowbro (you got me there with both of em.) and Ghost/Dark Types. everything else would break easily by the coverage.

Uh, the omnipresent Lati@s?

What are you talking about. I was only comparing Magic mirror and Sub with Non attacking moves. Also once a sub is gone, it'd be rather easy to break Espeon with its low defenses. Reflect and Calm Mind increases its less than subpar bulk to an acceptable level so it can properly sweep.

I'm referring to using Espeon versus some other recipient like Garchomp. You're essentially giving up a lot of coverage and power in exchange for immunity against moves that could be blocked anyway by just using Substitute. The only exception is Roar, but there's not much benefit outside of that(and you can always use Suction Cup pokemon if you want phaze-immunity).

 

[KurashiDragon]

Uh, the omnipresent Lati@s?

I was totally thinking of those two but for some reason I had forgotten to include them lol.


I'm referring to using Espeon versus some other recipient like Garchomp. You're essentially giving up a lot of coverage and power in exchange for immunity against moves that could be blocked anyway by just using Substitute. The only exception is Roar, but there's not much benefit outside of that(and you can always use Suction Cup pokemon if you want phaze-immunity).

Why are you comparing it to other SS recipients in the first place? This whole discussion is about Espeon's viability as a SS recipient. With Magic Mirror it's a great recipient to SS because it can actually continue to set up unlike Garchomp. and it wont be effected by status moves like Cradily.

 

[RaRaRabbit]

Well the two times I did this, I brought into the wrong category. Well really my question to you is, what is your reasoning on banning Darkrai, Deoxys, Skymin, Manaphy and the combo of Drizzle and SS? BTW When I wrote the first post it was muchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh longer, (Thats what she said :P)

I am confused, do you know how to copy and paste?

Your first post was deleted because you didn't follow the rules and no one believed your reasonings were strong enough.

You remade the post by retyping the entire thing, and then it was locked and people directed you here.

As someone linked you the suspect threads 2 already, I would like you to notice that there are 139 pages there. That is 139 pages for as to why these things were banned, and people arguing about it. There are many reasons that were argued back and forth.




As for the entire passing of Shell Smash to Espeon, that sounds pretty awesome. It of course can get hit hard by tyranitar and scizor but it seems pretty dangerous none the less.

 

[alphatron]

Teams can't be made to deal with every threat out there, so don't be surprised if you can't always find room for a counter on your team. Only twice have I lost to the gorebyss baton pass strategy, and as threatening as a +2/+2 Latios looks, I don't have the room to fit any reliable counters on my team.

And the counters to this strategy aren't the most reliable anyway. Aside from Vaporeon or sturdy skarmory/steelix (or red card steelix. >_>), what pokemon get to pull off a surefire phaze anyway? Dragontail milotic who can't pierce substitute? Swampert who is going to be blasted in the face with a +2 STAB Hydro Pump from gorebyss?

Also, deoxys-S is a huge pain in the ass. You can't stop this pokemon from setting up. Ever. Only two of the currently available MH pokemon pose an offensive threat that would make it consider doing something aside from magic coat, and it can easily use a coverage move so that it isn't useless outside of leading.

 

[jrp]

porygon2 can tend to handle those guys pretty well.
Just paralize them with thunderwave and you're set.

I guess evo stone dusclops could do it too.

 

[sax king]

Actually, CB Mamoswine works pretty well. It has the strongest Ice Shard in the game, making it the best option. Although it may not OHKO everything, it comes very close and will OHKO many of its targets if Gorebyss doesn't have a White Herb. Here are some calcs for Ice Shard:

Latios (86.1% - 102%)
Garchomp (125.1% - 148.6%)
Salamence (155.9% - 184.9%)
Hydreigon (72.6% - 85.5%)
Haxorus (80.5% - 94.9%)
Thundurus (96.3% - 114.4%)
Tornadus (96.3% - 114.4%)
Landorus (148% - 174.3%)
Excadrill (44.9% - 53.2%) (2HKO considering that its EQ does 56% - 65.9%)
EQ vs Excadrill (201.7% - 238%) (only useful after balloon is popped)

In short, some SR and some spikes can help patch up some unsure or close OHKOs. CB Mamo is awesome in this metagame. In fact, check out its analysis in the link in my sig!

 

[domeface]

So do you guys know the bane of a Pokemon who worked so hard and required so much set up to be extremely threatening, like a twice Shell-Break passed Latios? Or a Latias who successfully beat a Reuniclus in a Calm Mind war? A Dragonite who actually got three Dragon Dances? Yeeeeah. Sturdy Skarmory. Even though I don't use it, it pisses me off that I can't even OHKO it without Stealth Rocks on the field, and I've just wasted a White Herb or hard work in the process while being Whirlwinded.

My two cents.

As for Reuniclus, it normally runs Psychic type attack + Focus Blast. Leave HP Fire for Trick Room (suprisingly people don't expect it).

I couldn't agree more. Too many times have I managed to get Gorebyss in on a resisted attack, Shell Smash, successfully predicted a Leech Seed or TWave and Sub-blocked it, BPed to a reciever at full health, sometimes with the sub still intact, and then my sweep is fucked by a goddamn Skarmory. Phazing moves are the kinda thing that seems awesome when you're running them and you screw over your opponent's setup, but fucking bullshit if you've worked so hard for game-winning boosts and you get phazed out. They're nowhere near broken, but they're incredibly irritating.

 

[BurningMan]

I couldn't agree more. Too many times have I managed to get Gorebyss in on a resisted attack, Shell Smash, successfully predicted a Leech Seed or TWave and Sub-blocked it, BPed to a reciever at full health, sometimes with the sub still intact, and then my sweep is fucked by a goddamn Skarmory. Phazing moves are the kinda thing that seems awesome when you're running them and you screw over your opponent's setup, but fucking bullshit if you've worked so hard for game-winning boosts and you get phazed out. They're nowhere near broken, but they're incredibly irritating.

thats why you need to set-up sr when you see a Sturdy Phazer (no pun intended) in the team preview.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

I got a somewhat stupid question.

Why is Giratina-O Uber?
I've never seen one in Ubers and I started to play late-gen 4 so I never saw how powerful it could be.
I know 150/100/100 is stupidly bulky, but 120/120/90 Offenses seem around average(for a legendary) and with no ways to boost Speed, it can't help but get hit by Toxic.

Could someone tell me why Giratina-O is Uber ATM?

To continue with the current topic:

The strategy can be handled, but not as easily as sxof wants to beleive.
Not saying it's broken, but it CAN be tough to deal with unless you have a bulky phazer that can take a +2 STAB move without being completely crippled.
Thankfully, I've only seen a couple ones and I've been able to handle them.

 

[IcyMan28]

I got a somewhat stupid question.

Why is Giratina-O Uber?
I've never seen one in Ubers and I started to play late-gen 4 so I never saw how powerful it could be.
I know 150/100/100 is stupidly bulky, but 120/120/90 Offenses seem around average(for a legendary) and with no ways to boost Speed, it can't help but get hit by Toxic.

Could someone tell me why Giratina-O is Uber ATM?

To continue with the current topic:

The strategy can be handled, but not as easily as sxof wants to beleive.
Not saying it's broken, but it CAN be tough to deal with unless you have a bulky phazer that can take a +2 STAB move without being completely crippled.
Thankfully, I've only seen a couple ones and I've been able to handle them.

Giratina-O combines ridiculous bulk with great power and typing. Resistances to Ground / Fighting / Water / Grass / Electric / Fire and immunity to Spikes/SR makes it a prime spinblocker without even investing in defenses.

To put those "meager" 120 offensive stats into comparison, think of Blaziken's Flare Blitz or Skymin's Seed Flare, only substitute Outrage or Draco Meteor. The most common variant of the mixed set (Draco Meteor / HP Fire / Shadow Sneak / Outrage) is pretty difficult to wall, too, with Heatran being one of the few things that can switch in.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Giratina-O combines ridiculous bulk with great power and typing. Resistances to Ground / Fighting / Water / Grass / Electric / Fire and immunity to Spikes/SR makes it a prime spinblocker without even investing in defenses.

To put those "meager" 120 offensive stats into comparison, think of Blaziken's Flare Blitz or Skymin's Seed Flare, only substitute Outrage or Draco Meteor. The most common variant of the mixed set (Draco Meteor / HP Fire / Shadow Sneak / Outrage) is pretty difficult to wall, too, with Heatran being one of the few things that can switch in.

I see.
Thanks for the info.
Why doesn't anyone use it in Ubers anyway? It's looks badass :3

 

[IcyMan28]

Lol it does. People are still trying out new threats, I guess. It is still the most effective spinblocker in the tier, and despite added competition for a dragon-type from Zekrom and Reshiram, it boasts bulk and priority Shadow Sneak for Mewtwo, which is invaluable.

 

[Limewire]

Question: Which Pokemon are people usually using with Gorebyss to set up screens so it can do its job better? I'm currently using Espeon and Memento Latios, although I'm pondering about replacing Espeon with Deoxys-S.

 

[UnhandledException]

Deo-S is by far the best pokemon to (reliably) do the job, though I've also seen Latios, Bronzong being used.

 

[capefeather]

Well, unless I'm somehow incredibly out of the loop in Ubers now, Giratina-O is a very, very effective Pokémon in Ubers. I can't really imagine why it wouldn't be used, other than some sort of metagame shift that's unfavourable to it.

Anyway, suddenly Virizion seems to be making a return. I suppose the population of Steels compelled people to use it again. I also finally tried Gastrodon, and man, it's pretty effective. Even outside of soft-countering Thundurus, it just walls things.