np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

[XienZo]

uh, wut?

It's just that outside of a very, very limited amount of things, nothing can contain weather very well so that it ISN'T broken. Weather...hits each other. Non-weather teams...caught in between the weather wars. And many are relying on a single pokemon (who is potentially 1-2 or 3 hit koed by them) to counter multiple things that doesn't have much Recovery besides Leftovers and maybe Leech Seed although when they pound you, it doesn't help that much.

Weather isn't a single playstyle though. It's at least 4, with at least one being associated with each weather. If we only have weather teams, there's still a wide range of viable playstyles within the weather teams themselves. It's hardly stagnation of the metagame.

To stop Rain, it invests max hp/max sdef (right? But in any case it still needs a heck of a lot). This takes from defense and makes it eat dirt from sand since a boosted Earthquake deals a lot. It's not likely to run multiple defensive steels on the same team like Skarmory/Nattorei being that they share the same weakness and do much the same things.

Skarm does the same thing as Nattorei? Since when? And when you throw Scizor into the mix, it has a completely different role altogether.

The difference is in the defenses could turn a 3 hit ko (with more defense) into a 2 hit ko Stab Earthquake against Nattorei, which when doubled by Swords is a ohko. It can't defend from both sides THAT effectively as some people make it out to be. And if you go all out for rain, it's vulnerable to sand and vice versa.

Uh, what gets STAB EQ on a rain team?

It is murdered by Sun obviously. Heatran which could work gets killed by Jump Kicks and Hammer Arms if they see it. Hidiharuma is by the way faster than Heatran so if it's carrying Life Orb (it loses the guaranteed 2 hit ko on Suicune but if Heatran becomes an issue then it's worth it since Flare Blitz is Encourage Boosted without additional Life Orb) it will die. Normal things like Sazandora Scarf are vulnerable to other things
(Mebjuka, +2 Life Orb Venasaur, Scarf Solar Power Charizard, etc) but they will probably lose something to Draco Meteor (unless it's Forretress). Still Hidiharuma and others come in to finish it off.

Sun's even less of a threat than rain though. And obviously, you don't switch in Heatran on the few sun abusers with access to those moves.

The closest thing mentioned was Lickilicky, Trick Room, and maybe Choice Scarf Golduck? (Ugh, weak thing but fortunately most weathers are somewhat defensively weak but that thing would have problems. Lickilicky is still way better.) But those are only temporary and who knows how actually effective those are (Trick Room isn't really seen much now as it is when it is the best time for it. What would suddenly make it jump everywhere later?)

Uh, you should obviously know how effective the counters to a certain tactic are before banning something. >_>

 

[SlimMan]

That is what you said right and you did ask for my response? And I hope I gave the right type of response that you asked for (it was about counters to Kabutops and Ludicolo, right?).

I was talking to ensoriki. The post he made where he responds to you and me but the hide tabs don't work and you can't see what he said.

Question: I haven't read all your posts; do you agree or disagree with him?

 

[Green Thunder]

Uh, what gets STAB EQ on a rain team?

That one toad guy...his name escapes me...cuz he sucks...lol
How would virizon/bijiron (that grass fighting thing) do against rain teams? He(she...it!?) has a fantastic special defense, resistance to rock,water,grass,and ground(lol gamerogue)...Kingdra(that ass -_-) will still pose a problem, but u can't stop everyone! (isn't that right nattorie?)

@SlimMan that's his name...he still ugly and he still sucks ...

 

[SlimMan]

That one toad guy...his name escapes me...cuz he sucks...lol

Gamagamorgeogerage

I think

 

[Fluffy Otters]

uh, wut?



Weather isn't a single playstyle though. It's at least 4, with at least one being associated with each weather. If we only have weather teams, there's still a wide range of viable playstyles within the weather teams themselves. It's hardly stagnation of the metagame.



Skarm does the same thing as Nattorei? Since when? And when you throw Scizor into the mix, it has a completely different role altogether.



Uh, what gets STAB EQ on a rain team?



Sun's even less of a threat than rain though. And obviously, you don't switch in Heatran on the few sun abusers with access to those moves.



Uh, you should obviously know how effective the counters to a certain tactic are before banning something. >_>

Well the same purposes as Spiking and walling physical things as Nattorei. Not so much the special defensive and being the only thing really holding rain teams back despite weird counter/checks like Trick Room and Lickilicky. Although, how many Trick Room teams have you seen? If it isn't that much used now, it won't be used much then.

How often do you see Hail with permanent sand, let alone with Rain and Fire? It could happen, but so rarely that you'll often count it as three. Or two since Rain/Sand will be the ones dominating although Sun will definitely attempt to give a run for their money and it won't be that uncommon like Hail, just in between for the most part.

And still, why are we running multiple defensive steels like that on the same team anyways? Scizor makes sense because it is completely different, but Nattorei/Skarmory/Forretress wasn't since they all Spike and serve as defensive (and sometimes special defensive to resists) walls.

That was worded akwardly. What I meant was by gearing Nattorei for a rain weather team, it is much easier for SAND pokemon to kill you (and Swords Dance Fire Fang Garchomp always will).

 

[SlimMan]

Uh, what gets STAB EQ on a rain team?

4 things:
Swampert
Quagsire
Gastrodon
toad-thing

How many are viable in the current metagame?
Well, uh.............................

 

[Fluffy Otters]

4 things:
Swampert
Quagsire
Gastrodon
toad-thing

How many are viable in the current metagame?
Well, uh.............................

It was bad wording! I meant investing in special defensive leaves it vulnerable to 2 hit koes instead of 3 from threatening SAND sweeper Earthquakes (one with Swords Dance).

 

[tubbablubba]

I've been laddering for the past two days a heavy amount. I got up to about 1100 after not that much time using a non weather based revolved around shell break cloyster and butterfly dance ulgamoth.

I don't really find any weather strategy to be too broken. All you need are creative counters to the pokemon you fear most. People have to accept that any team they build will have some sort of weakness to some sets. There are simply too many pokemon and too many of them are good.

I've been using rapid spin aqua jet ice punch Hail Blastoise as an all weather counter, spinner, dragon counter. This Nattorei are all the measures I have really to defend against weather, yet I find most of my weather games to be really competitive coming down to who outplays who.

I find infinite weather users to be a fascinating addition to the OU metagame and I hope all of them are here to stay. People have to become more accepting of the weather heavy metagame and actually try to adapt. I think the metagame right now is fun. As much fun as I've had in the best metagames of gen 4.

 

[SlimMan]

It was bad wording! I meant investing in special defensive leaves it vulnerable to 2 hit koes instead of 3 from threatening SAND sweeper Earthquakes (one with Swords Dance).

I don't know how the question came up or the context it was used in.
I just saw it in Green Thunder's post.
So I wasn't implying anything.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

That one toad guy...his name escapes me...cuz he sucks...lol
How would virizon/bijiron (that grass fighting thing) do against rain teams? He(she...it!?) has a fantastic special defense, resistance to rock,water,grass,and ground(lol gamerogue)...Kingdra(that ass -_-) will still pose a problem, but u can't stop everyone! (isn't that right nattorie?)

@SlimMan that's his name...he still ugly and he still sucks ...

The Grass/Fighting could potentially work, especially if you get Light Screen up. You will have to beware Specs Draco Meteor since that comes REALLY close to 2 hit koing you and is faster because of Swift Swim if using standard spread (252 hp/44 Def/212 Spd) although if you're using it exclusively for Rain, I wonder if you should just take from speed (leaving enough to outspeed things like Non Scarf Modest Sazandora) and invest it in special defense since you aren't going to be outrunning anything in rain. It laughs at Hydro Pumps (even no special defense). And...

Okay, Virijion Grass/Fighter owns it on the special side. On the physical...will have to watch out for Qwilfish and physical attacking Kingdra since they do massive damage. Qwilfish near ohkoes (or just D-Bonds) and Dragon Dance Boosted Outrage from Kingdra does a lot. Umm...I guess you don't want to face Parasect either (should it appear) or any boosted Cloyster/Poliwrath.

Virijon shuts rain down more efficiently than Nattorei can.>>>
You definitely get an award.

 

[Green Thunder]

The Grass/Fighting could potentially work, especially if you get Light Screen up. You will have to beware Specs Draco Meteor since that comes REALLY close to 2 hit koing you and is faster because of Swift Swim if using standard spread (252 hp/44 Def/212 Spd) although if you're using it exclusively for Rain, I wonder if you should just take from speed (leaving enough to outspeed things like Non Scarf Modest Sazandora) and invest it in special defense since you aren't going to be outrunning anything in rain. It laughs at Hydro Pumps (even no special defense). And...

Okay, Virijion Grass/Fighter owns it on the special side. On the physical...will have to watch out for Qwilfish and physical attacking Kingdra since they do massive damage. Qwilfish near ohkoes (or just D-Bonds) and Dragon Dance Boosted Outrage from Kingdra does a lot. Umm...I guess you don't want to face Parasect either (should it appear) or any boosted Cloyster/Poliwrath.

Virijon shuts rain down more efficiently than Nattorei can.>>>
You definitely get an award.

Hooray! An award!...on the physical side theirs always bijirons(spelling fail) steel/fighting counter part...who has volt change(which could he useful for racking up damage) and thunder wave...and theirs quagsire :).

 

[min min]

Permaweather is not broken just because when you prepare exclusively for one you fall to another. Why not let's all run minimum speed on everyone to counter Trick Room teams?

 

[XienZo]

Well the same purposes as Spiking and walling physical things as Nattorei. Not so much the special defensive and being the only thing really holding rain teams back despite weird counter/checks like Trick Room and Lickilicky. Although, how many Trick Room teams have you seen? If it isn't that much used now, it won't be used much then.

What? Obviously, if there's increased weather use, there's going to be an increase of tactics that counter it. No one is going to go, "Oh, I need something to handle weather. This tactic works, but I didn't use that much before, so why use it now?"

How often do you see Hail with permanent sand, let alone with Rain and Fire? It could happen, but so rarely that you'll often count it as three. Or two since Rain/Sand will be the ones dominating although Sun will definitely attempt to give a run for their money and it won't be that uncommon like Hail, just in between for the most part.

But within each of the weathers, there are distinct playstyles, one obvious set being the offensive and defensive version of each weather, which play as differently from each other as any other 2 playstyles would.

And still, why are we running multiple defensive steels like that on the same team anyways? Scizor makes sense because it is completely different, but Nattorei/Skarmory/Forretress wasn't since they all Spike and serve as defensive (and sometimes special defensive to resists) walls.

Because Skarm can't handle special attacks? Because Nattorei can't phaze?

That was worded akwardly. What I meant was by gearing Nattorei for a rain weather team, it is much easier for SAND pokemon to kill you (and Swords Dance Fire Fang Garchomp always will).

Like Dory and Chomp? If your counter for them was only Nattorei, of course you're doomed, but at that point, that's the least of your problems...

 

[shrang]

That one toad guy...his name escapes me...cuz he sucks...lol
How would virizon/bijiron (that grass fighting thing) do against rain teams? He(she...it!?) has a fantastic special defense, resistance to rock,water,grass,and ground(lol gamerogue)...Kingdra(that ass -_-) will still pose a problem, but u can't stop everyone! (isn't that right nattorie?)

@SlimMan that's his name...he still ugly and he still sucks ...

Birijion actually works very well against rain teams. I've been using CM Birijion on my own rain team and it is easily my MVP against opposing rain teams. I can think of so many times where I would laugh when I see your bog standard rain team, stick Birijion in the first slot and 6-0 it. I'd even go as far to say that Birijion is offensively the worst enemy to rain teams, since it can take virtually everything apart from LO boosted Outrages from Kingdra or Poison Jab from Qwilfish and Giga Drain away everything. I've even put Latias on my rain team now that I'm convinced that it is that big a threat.

 

[tubbablubba]

Permaweather is not broken just because when you prepare exclusively for one you fall to another. Why not let's all run minimum speed on everyone to counter Trick Room teams?

But why do you think this is true? I just slapped hail on a blastoise spinner set. A lot of people are willing to lead off with their politoed or hippowdon, and lose it on the very first turn. Switch to blastoise, use hail and they're entire weather support is gone for the rest of the match. Smarter opponents will keep their weather starter alive but it then comes down to outplaying them.

Hail on bulky pokemon is a simple solution but I'm sure there are tons of other unorthodox but viable sets. There are definitely ways to counter "weather" in general, they are just sets that would not have been used in gen IV.

 

[shrang]

I'm sorry but saying that weather being overcentralizing and weather moves to counter it being a waste of moveslot as argument doesn't cut it.

In the last Gen, almost every single team ran Rapid Spin, a terrible move (20 BP Normal type) whose sole purpose was removing SR 90% of the time. And there was a good chance the opponent sent a Ghost type in, making it useless on top of that.

Weather moves, if you play intelligently, are very hard to stop because their distribution is much wider than Rapid Spin, making them much more unpredictable. It's not like your opponent is going to Taunt everything in your team just to stop weather moves.

I don't see the difference in using a specific move like Hail to remove the weather and actually just carrying a weather inducer yourself to make the weather more favourable. I mean, if I see your Blastoise use Hail against my rain team, I'm still going to make killing Blastoise my number 1 priority, and I can just as easily get my weather back by switching in Politoed.

 

[xRadarr]

I don't see the difference in using a specific move like Hail to remove the weather and actually just carrying a weather inducer yourself to make the weather more favourable. I mean, if I see your Blastoise use Hail against my rain team, I'm still going to make killing Blastoise my number 1 priority, and I can just as easily get my weather back by switching in Politoed.

Team preview, is the difference.
Yes, many players won't simply sacrifice their weather-inducer first turn because they don't see an opposing one on the opponent's team. However, with team preview, people DO tend to be less careful with their inducer. Generally, you wouldn't reveal Hail until after their weather inducer is gone.

If you have to bring out Blastoise earlier to remove the weather against a potent sweeper, oh well. You still achieve stopping a sweep, and will be able to bring in a counter/check to what you are fighting unboosted and/or take out the predicted Politoed switch in.

 

[SJCrew]

The only reason you should ever be liberal about having your weather starter die is if your opponent is using the same weather. And don't EVER bring out your surprise weather changer early, since they'll be taking massive damage trying to do it in the middle of a sweep and will probably die on the spot unless you can afford the switch-around.

 

[B-Lulz]

To be honest, maybe Stealth Rock should have been banned in Gen 4, but regardless the impact not having Stealth Rock had was a lot less detrimental than not having weather in your favour. Besides its not even like you have to use a move to change the weather with Drizzle. It automatically puts the opposing team at a disadvantage, even when it isn't up because you are always going to be playing around the weather inducer. When it is up, it is either get swept or prevent there being weather for maybe 1 turn. It takes multiple Pokemon really to have Hail to counter Rain to make it truly effective, and not a temporary solution.

 

[Azule]

I didn't realize it was so hard to stay civilized in a debate about Pokemon.

Anyway, I have no interest in joining, I just wanna add that the only "Broken" rain abuser is Manaphy. A half decent player can work around the others. Banning Drizzle because it provides a playstyle isn't the answer in 5th gen, but it was in 4th gen.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I didn't realize it was so hard to stay civilized in a debate about Pokemon.

Anyway, I have no interest in joining, I just wanna add that the only "Broken" rain abuser is Manaphy. A half decent player can work around the others. Banning Drizzle because it provides a playstyle isn't the answer in 5th gen, but it was in 4th gen.

No! Don't say that. We want 5th gen to be exactly like 4th gen, remmeber? :D

Seriously though, why do some people have such a problem with having to now consider weather more when they build their teams?

If a weather is broken, it should be banned. If a weather is common, but not broken, it should NOT be banned. It's like entry hazards, they're common, and have shaped the metagame a LOT, but over the years we've just got used to them now. Entry hazards are just things we have to think about if we want to build a good team. Just because this is a lot to think about, it doesn't mean we have to ban it.

 

[fidgety]

No! Don't say that. We want 5th gen to be exactly like 4th gen, remmeber? :D

Seriously though, why do some people have such a problem with having to now consider weather more when they build their teams?

If a weather is broken, it should be banned. If a weather is common, but not broken, it should NOT be banned. It's like entry hazards, they're common, and have shaped the metagame a LOT, but over the years we've just got used to them now. Entry hazards are just things we have to think about if we want to build a good team. Just because this is a lot to think about, it doesn't mean we have to ban it.

1. why do we want to make a new gen look like an older 1 i don't see the logic there we want it to be enjoyable but it should be its own.

2. i see that outside of kingdra + manaphy the only major rain threats u all can think of are kabutops + ludicolo. if a strategy is to be offensively viable it needs 2-3 strong sweepers + some other pokes to fill in the hole since not every1 is gonna use tops + colo. sand has dory +chomp as it's top 2 as well as tar for offense + no one is complaining too much about them.

 

[alexwolf]

Good for you! I'd be worried about Life Orb Ludicolo (Rain Dance, Surf, Focus Blast/Icebeam, Giga Drain) should it appear because he is pretty good, able to 2 hit ko Natt, do massive damage to Vaporeon with Giga Drain (and restore Spikes and Life Orb damage and extra with Vaporeons high hp), change weather in Tyranitar's face and/or Surf/Focus Blast him into oblivion. If you're using Max hp, no Special defense Tyranitar, its Focus Blast ohkoes in Sand and if special defensive, 2 hit ko with it followed by Surf.

But that you haven't had any trouble with it so far is pretty awesome. (What are you're remaining pokes?). Also, the BL ubers are kind of ruling right now and most don't seem to be using a Rain team anyways since the BL ubers do keep the weather in check for the most part except maybe BL uber Manaphy who is broken and going to be banned along with the others. But once they're gone, it is likely weather will completely take over for good or worse (unless weather auto-inducing abilities are banned which they probably should) that is more than Sand with Rain/Sun/and some Hail to stop the others.

first i have to say to u that it's not so easy for ludicolo to destroy my defence this easy...nattorei's power whip does over half to ludicolo iirc and tyranitar's stone edge alomst ohkos...and i dont think that life orb focus blast kills tyranitar in return...i have faced a lot of ludicolos and my team did well against them...i normally switch around a little bit and wait for life orb to take it's toll and when i predict the heal with giga drain i go to nattorei which results in more life lost than recovered for ludicolo.so 'cause u wanted to know the rest of my team is a specially defensive sleeptalk heatran with lava plume and roar,leftovers starmie with rapid spin and defensive gliscor with poison heal...

 

[ensoriki]

Slimman the post was fixed on page 62.

The only reason you should ever be liberal about having your weather starter die is if your opponent is using the same weather. And don't EVER bring out your surprise weather changer early, since they'll be taking massive damage trying to do it in the middle of a sweep and will probably die on the spot unless you can afford the switch-around.

It's all strategy though and it's quite valid considering the metagame.

I don't see the difference in using a specific move like Hail to remove the weather and actually just carrying a weather inducer yourself to make the weather more favourable. I mean, if I see your Blastoise use Hail against my rain team, I'm still going to make killing Blastoise my number 1 priority, and I can just as easily get my weather back by switching in Politoed.

It will still be much more difficult for a rain, sun, sand, hail team to succeed when opposing weather is on the field. Then people start getting smacked around when trying to switch in politoed.

 

[Redjar]

I didn't realize it was so hard to stay civilized in a debate about Pokemon.

Anyway, I have no interest in joining, I just wanna add that the only "Broken" rain abuser is Manaphy. A half decent player can work around the others. Banning Drizzle because it provides a playstyle isn't the answer in 5th gen, but it was in 4th gen.

I'd say Vaporeon for similar reasons. She's a pain to kill (though true not as broke as manaphy and I've no intention of banning Vape despite her annoyance) 4th gen banned Kyogre b/c of its legendary calibur stats. Not solely b/c of drizzle.