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Even discounting Focus Blast on Landorus, Ferrothorn cannot check. Sure, it 2HKOs with Gyro Ball but Landorus gets to do the same with Earth Power.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 175-207 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Since Earth Power is pretty much mandatory on all Landorus (and this isn't the Rash/Modest version) Ferrothorn is a really bad check, since even if you run protect you still have an over 50% chance to be 2HKOed after two turns of leftovers recovery and rocks.
Landorus has many checks, but not many counters. Most of its checks are either faster and can OHKO it or are slower but bulky enough to take a hit, and can OHKO it. There's not many mons that can take three or more hits from Landorus.
I don't think that there are ANY mons that can take 3 hits from Landorus, as the 3 "best" counters to it all get 3 shotted by its coverage moves 9 out of ten times, also there's the fast that you have 5 other teammates, and scarf ttar can easily muscle its way past the two mons that are barely 3HKOd with a scarf, let alone a choice band:
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 140-166 (31.5 - 37.3%) -- 89.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Latias: 125-147 (34.4 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (KO does the same)
0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 265-315 (79.8 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
TTar:
252 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 248 HP / 84+ Def Mega Latias: 194-230 (53.4 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage (at 80 BP)
252 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 170-204 (38.2 - 45.9%) -- 12.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery (at 80 BP)
Crunch has the same power and Ttar can easily beat both mons in a 1v1 scenario,(unless they have that based HP fighting mega latias)
I guess I have to explain what a CHECK is. It is a poke that beats said poke 1 v. 1,which Weavile does. Excluding the check factor, Azumarill can OHKO if Lando-I switches in on rocks. Sacking a poke allows my examples to come in safely and do massive damage on Lando-I or 1 shot it.
No that isn't a check... you're looking more often than not at a revenge killer. A check is something that generally has the opportunity to switch in on common attacks from Lando-I and from there proceed to threaten it. What you were describing when you begin talking about saccing a mon is more or less a revenge killer.
Lando-I loses to popular priority or nearly does. It's slow enough for the COMMONLY USED pokemon in ou to outspeed it. It gets revenge killed easily because of these factors. Because of this,its better off as a cleaner. Banning a pokemon for being able to clean up seems rediculous because there are many cleaners that aren't even ou. It can't dominate the beginning to end of the game if you build your team with some of its checks,and anyone who says that it should be banned because it limits team-building is wrong to me because many pokemon/moves limit teambuilding. Tbh I really don't care if you disagree with me because it is my opinion,just like when people found the Greninja ban stupid.
Lando-I doesn't even lose to all forms of Priority, the only priority that KOs him is ice shard, and there are only 2 viable ice shard users that are viable in OU, neither of them having enough usage to be OU.
Strongest Non-Ice shard Prio:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 260-308 (81.5 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 272-324 (85.2 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (not very likely, and most Crawdaunts don't run CB)
All of those "Checks" get outsped at +2 and 2KO'd at worst by Lando-I who sets up on a ton of mons on Offense, the playstyle these faster checks are usually on:
Calcs vs common mons faster than Lando:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 333-393 (103 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 421-499 (139.8 - 165.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Alakazam: 239-282 (95.2 - 112.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 315-372 (116.2 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Diancie: 322-382 (105.9 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 382-452 (147.4 - 174.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 148-175 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 549-647 (195.3 - 230.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 296-351 (92.2 - 109.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 338-398 (115.7 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Starmie: 255-302 (78.9 - 93.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0- Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 530-624 (147.6 - 173.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 296-351 (99.3 - 117.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 268-317 (80.7 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Garchomp: 359-426 (85.4 - 101.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Sure Lando won't be running all of these coverage moves at once, but smart players don't reveal what coverage move Lando-I has until it has to, or it is to late for your opponent to do anything about it.
Lando-I loses to popular priority or nearly does. It's slow enough for the COMMONLY USED pokemon in ou to outspeed it. It gets revenge killed easily because of these factors. Because of this,its better off as a cleaner. Banning a pokemon for being able to clean up seems rediculous because there are many cleaners that aren't even ou. It can't dominate the beginning to end of the game if you build your team with some of its checks,and anyone who says that it should be banned because it limits team-building is wrong to me because many pokemon/moves limit teambuilding. Tbh I really don't care if you disagree with me because it is my opinion,just like when people found the Greninja ban stupid.
You said it: revenge killed. You know what you're assuming, right? Lando killed something. It's not inherently bad that Lando kills stuff, but when you have to rely on getting a lucky af switch into your Weavile or Mamo or Cloyster or w/e your favorite Ice Shard user is, there's something wrong. All three of those amazing Lando "checks" need their Focus Sash to survive a NEUTRAL Earth Power, and that's assuming the Lando user hasn't set up hazards or isn't dumb enough to attempt a sweep while any of those Pokemon are still alive! I don't get why this is so hard for you to understand, but you have to trust me on this: stop embarrassing yourself. I have seen plenty of good anti-ban arguments but you are not helping their cause. Please lurk more.
In any case, I think there is decent evidence for both sides but I still predict a supermajority for ban, mainly from extreme exaggeration and mob mentality (not to mention more intelligent and experienced battlers) from the ban side. Not going to ladder myself because I haven't played OU since XY so even if I did get reqs, it would be from a user who has very little experience with or against Lando in the first place so I really couldn't give an honest vote. I ask that everyone who can vote honestly, DO SO, not giving into mobs in both camps but from your own experiences and for the real benefit of the metagame.
I may just sound like I'm rehashing old arguments here, but you're all forgetting the crucial piece of information that Landorus doesn't need counters to be balanced. It can still exist in the OU tier just fine provided it has an abundance of checks. Now, what fyourblog has gone and done is list good checks to Lando, it shouldn't be too difficult to list more. Saying that something doesn't work because Lando can switch out is a poor argument, because switching around between pokemon to put yourself in an advantageous situation is just how singles is played.
And the issue is that Landorus's offensive checks are easy for him to wear down by himself much less with support, and defensive answers like Skarmory are passive to the point of exploiting. If my Landorus forces you to bring in Skarmory, what's stopping me from going to my Zard-X or my Mega Manectric, something that capitalizes on Skarmory to get on the field and deal damage of its own.
Once again, if a check forces Lando out, it has done its job well. You could make exactly the same argument about Mega Gardevoir, and this doesn't even need to predict switch ins at all, it has the notable advantage over Landorus of relying primarily on one move rather than a large assortment of coverage options. I'm aware that prediction arguments work both ways, but whichever way you spin it, just clicking Hyper Voice is easier than considering which coverage option you want to make use of. What stops pokemon like Gardevoir, Heracross, Zard Y from being broken? They have limited switch-in opportunities, and while it is very difficult to switch into them, it is not difficult to force them out. Landorus I is similar to them in that respect.
As for various advantages Landorus has over other breakers, some of them are listed here:
So if Landorus can do "X, Y and Z at S rank levels" and Mega Charizard Y (hypothetically) can do "X, Y and Z at S Rank levels", Landorus is the more appealing option since he doesn't lock you out of using a different Mega.
Lack of a Mega Slot is just another factor in the discussion of Landorus being low cost: No mega Slot, difficult to wear down passively, immune to Thunder Wave, 2 immunities, usable bulk, a trollishly good speed tier for a wallbreaker, extremely flexible coverage, and the versatility to beat whatever it wants.
You would be absolutely correct in saying that Landorus has advantages over other breakers, but you're ignoring that these other breakers have advantages over Landorus, it doesn't outshine them in every respect. By this logic, no competent player would use Zard Y, Mana, Garde, etc at all when they could just use Landorus instead. However, they do use those pokemon. Why? Because they have advantages over Landorus that can be made use of, and these advantages can make them the better choice. Fine, Landorus doesn't need a mega slot, but neither do Kyu-B and Manaphy. Manaphy is bulkier than Landorus, and rather than just being immune to one status condition, with a Rain Dance set, it can be immune to all of them. It too has great coverage, and although this shouldn't be used with rain dance as I just mentioned, HP fire can be used to dick over certain checks like Ferrothorn, Landorus is not unique in being a pokemon that can KO things you wouldn't expect it to.
Lando-I doesn't even lose to all forms of Priority, the only priority that KOs him is ice shard, and there are only 2 viable ice shard users that are viable in OU, neither of them having enough usage to be OU.
Strongest Non-Ice shard Prio:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 260-308 (81.5 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 272-324 (85.2 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (not very likely, and most Crawdaunts don't run CB)
All of those "Checks" get outsped at +2 and 2KO'd at worst by Lando-I who sets up on a ton of mons on Offense, the playstyle these faster checks are usually on:
Calcs vs common mons faster than Lando:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 333-393 (103 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 421-499 (139.8 - 165.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Alakazam: 239-282 (95.2 - 112.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 315-372 (116.2 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Diancie: 322-382 (105.9 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gengar: 382-452 (147.4 - 174.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 148-175 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 549-647 (195.3 - 230.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 296-351 (92.2 - 109.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Serperior: 338-398 (115.7 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Starmie: 255-302 (78.9 - 93.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0- Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 530-624 (147.6 - 173.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 296-351 (99.3 - 117.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 268-317 (80.7 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Garchomp: 359-426 (85.4 - 101.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Sure Lando won't be running all of these coverage moves at once, but smart players don't reveal what coverage move Lando-I has until it has to, or it is to late for your opponent to do anything about it.
Ok, I disagree with Lando setting up on "a ton of mons on offense", precisely because this is a playstyle that aims to give almost no free turns at all, so fine, Lando I can be threatening when it is at +2 to offence, but I maintain that it is still balanced because
a) It is damn near impossible to set up for free
b) Offence has reliable ways of revenging it once it has, in fact this particular calc: [252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 148-175 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO] proves that there is a splashable check to Lando that can be fitted fairly easily onto most teams, and it isn't the only one. After just the tiniest bit of chip damage, Band Azu becomes a guaranteed KO, something which should be very easy to get on a team where everything can hit for at least some damage. Alternatively, if you want just want to take it from 100-0% in one move no matter what speed it is at, then like you admitted, Weavile can do that, this is a pokemon is very underrated and has so much more usefulness than just revenge killing Lando on HO. Not to say that everyone should just run Weavile on their teams because they shouldn't, and you don't have to in order to reliably beat Lando, but that this a threat which HO users should make use of more frequently than they do.
VS. Balance it's probably the most deadly, especially if you don't use Tornadus-T. Tornadus-T is a mon we're fortunate to have since it's pretty hard to take advantage of like a Chansey or Latias would be, but even then Landorus outdamages Regenerator and with SR up, Tornadus-T can end up going down quickly. There's also the option of Rock Slide to take it out in one go, while Landorus still has great coverage in whatever 3 other attacks it chooses. Calm Mind is an option too. Absolutely shreds stall, while still maintaining some utility vs offense because of its power and decent speed tier. Don't know too many other pokes with a versatility like that. Even if you customize Landorus to counter one playstyle, it can still do damage vs the others. Really an amazing Pokemon if you think about it, sort of like a mega without the slot used up.
Things like Mega Gyarados, Gengar, Sp def Stallbreaker Talonflame, and either CB or BD Azumarill can be used to great effect vs both offensive AND defensive playstyles, so I don't agree that it is alone in that respect. Furthermore, I don't see what the problem is with having a pokemon that can be effective vs a variety of playstyles. Assuming that we didn't have any pokemon like this, then you couldn't prepare properly for any one playstyle without getting squashed by another, it's entirely healthy that a pokemon can take on more than one role. Now, provided that it doesn't invalidate a particular playstyle more than any other breaker, this pokemon has a place in the tier. I do not believe that it does invalidate balance more than other breakers, because it has certain, albeit limited switch-ins, and as for it having something to lure those switch-ins, I've already mentioned Manaphy, Kyurem-B can HP fire for ferrothorn or run Iron Head for sp def Clefable, so Lando is not unique in this regard.
ok guess i'll say a couple of quick words about lando as well
I strongly believe Lando-I should get banned. One of the most obvious reasons for Lando-I's brokenness, is its rather extensive pool of coverage moves. This ensures that there's no such thing as a universal AoA Lando-I check (outside of Mega Latias). This isn't even taking into consideration that Rock Polish and CM aren't terrible options that add even more to Lando-I's unpredictability. It's important to note that Lando-I can't run all of its coverage moves at once, especially if it chooses to carry a set up move. However, the player using Lando-I always has an advantage because they can adjust their team to maximize the potential that the Lando-I moveset of choice provides for them.
Honestly, the biggest reason for me to ban Lando-I personally is its incredibly low opportunity cost. Slapping Lando-I on a team isn't hard at all when you compare it to other wallbreakers. I've read the arguments of some people who are comparing Lando-I to Kyurem-B, Mega Heracross, Manaphy, Gengar and some other wallbreakers. The argument is that these mons are just as dangerous against balanced/stall teams and that's completely right. But it's still unfair to compare them to Lando-I. Lando-I is faster than any of those, it's not weak to residual damage at all (hell it doesn't even take LO damage), it's got ridiculous power without having to set up, it's not a glass cannon, it's not prone to Pursuit, it doesn't have a shitty typing, it's not useless against offense and I could probably go on for a while but you get the point. Wallbreakers are necessary elements in a metagame, but there's a common denominator among all wallbreakers across generations: they all have some sort of fatal flaw. Lando-I obviously isn't a perfect mon, but it doesn't have a fatal flow like other mons that are in the same power bracket and that's why it should be banned.
Presumably you mean after a Rock Polish in the bolded points, but for the reasons I've outlined, that's difficult to get off vs HO. As for the list of reasons that you gave as to why it is effective, you could quite easily say that while it may have those advantages, breakers like Manaphy are much more efficient at setting up, and while Landorus can gradually break apart a team by using powerful coverage, Manaphy can just straight up run through bulky teams that aren't prepared for the specific set it's running, and Manaphy also brings more defensive utility. I'll repeat my previous statement that while Landorus is undeniably a fantastic breaker, it does not completely outshine its competition, there are good reasons as to why you might want to choose another breaker over Landorus. Lacking a major flaw doesn't inherently make a pokemon broken, in fact other such pokemon in the S rank could be said to lack flaws, and Metagrossite was voted to be kept in OU, I would find looking at Landorus' positive traits a more effective spend of time to decide as to whether it is broken. A lack of major flaws makes a pokemon splashable, something which is not inherently unhealthy. As for looking at the specific positive traits, balance can handle Landorus by utilising certain checks, it is not capable of sweeping through well-built teams as has been made out, and as for a lack of switch-ins, you can say the same of many breakers in the tier.
I fully understand that Landorus is a cost effective pokemon that puts stress on bulkier teams. However, it isn't flat out superior to other pokemon that can fill the same role as the pro-ban side would have you believe (in fact I would argue that breakers like Manaphy or Gardevoir are more effective against fatter builds), and importantly, it pressures not invalidates these builds. Balance builds adapting to best beat popular breakers is not inherently unhealthy, it is part of the meta, and unless somebody can prove that this is much more difficult to do so than with other breakers in the tier, it should stay stay in OU.
I'll repeat my previous statement that while Landorus is undeniably a fantastic breaker, it does not completely outshine its competition, there are good reasons as to why you might want to choose another breaker over Landorus. Lacking a major flaw doesn't inherently make a pokemon broken, in fact other such pokemon in the S rank could be said to lack flaws, and Metagrossite was voted to be kept in OU, I would find looking at Landorus' positive traits a more effective spend of time to decide as to whether it is broken.
Just because it wasn't banned doesn't mean it is effectively a case closed and shut, Deoxys for instance underwent several suspects until it was banned. Even more so when the voting itself was quite close, while it may not be a super majority it was still in essence a majority. I'd hardly consider it a standard so to speak, and needn't be the go to reference.
Balance builds adapting to best beat popular breakers is not inherently unhealthy, it is part of the meta, and unless somebody can prove that this is much more difficult to do so than with other breakers in the tier, it should stay stay in OU.
The problem with adapting as noted lies in the fact that the reliable answers itself can be easily counted in one hand... It is easier said than done when your answers are very few and specific, many of the more solid checks tend to share redundant typing (Lat@s, Celebi, Mew, and Cresselia). If there were a bigger pool of answers, and not as reliant on revenge killing or heavy scouting, then I think adapting would be an easier task -- however in this case it has been put in detail that Lando-I has a small pool of reliable switch ins, many of which can easily be covered by the same coverage move (i.e. Knock off since most common switch ins are psychic and one is ghost).
After reading through the arguements and playing on the ladder I am still torn on Landorus but am leaning towards no ban. However, there are some arguements, mostly on the pro-ban side, that have really been blown out of proportion and I've come here to address that.
Landorus is not Greninja. Greninja was much harder to switch into and beat not just because it got STAB on everything, but because it was insanely fast. Even pokemon that could switch into one move would be bopped by another before they could move and essentially had to take two hits. Landorus is not nearly that fast and many pokemon can easily switch into one of it's moves and outspeed it. This means that Lando-I won't be able to get away with freely spamming its moves like Greninja because if it doesn't predict correctly from the getgo it can easily be beaten or forced out.
Landorus is not Mega-Salamence. Mega-Salamence could effortlessly set up and would often 6-0 teams. Landorus, more often than not, is better off going AoA opposed to trying to set up a Calm Mind or Rock Polish. While both of these sets are effective, they certainly have their flaws. Calm Mind sets can easily be outspeed and KOed. Rock Polish sets are victimized by common priority and pokemon that can tank one hit and fire back. The latter isn't that uncommon becaue Earth Power has plenty of immunties and Lando's coverage moves are powerful, but not enough to flat out KO threats they aren't super effective against. Not to mention it isn't exactly a wak in the park for Landorus to set up these moves. Average bulk and uninvested defenes only go so far. I'll say Calm Mind will usually be easier to set up with because it's often used against slow, passivish, mons but certainly not Rock Polish. Rock Polish is meant to clean offensive teams but ironically Lando has the most difficulty setting up against these teams in the first place. Also we can't forget how mindless Mega Salamence was to use: set up and spam Return. We all have to admit that to use Landorus well it takes a bit more skill than that. Landorus is on the slow side, it's only STAB has pleny of immunties / resists, and it won't take too many hits. With this in mind, when Landorus gets in it has to make the most of every oppurtunity. It has to accurately predict the appropriate coverage move, know when it can set up and successfully sweep, know which hits can be tanked and which ones can't, and so on. A seasoned veteran who knows what they're doing will have a lot more success with Landorus than a person who started yesterday and I feel like this partially alleviates the team match up issues people blame on Landorus.
Landorus is not Aegislash. There was no reason not to use Aegislash. It checked so may pokemon defensively (which is something Landorus can't even dream of) and was by no means a pushover offensively either. It had a variety of sets, a spammable move in Shadow Ball (no Earth Power is not spammable), and was extremely over centralizing (those who played early to mid xy will remember), like 10x more centralizing than even Landorus in its most overexaggerated state. This isn't even to menton the other bullshit that came with Aegislash such as King's Shield, Stealth Rock resistance, spin-blocking, couldn't be trapped, amazing ofensive and defensive typing, crazy stats, etc. Honestly, the Pro OU for Aegislash side (both tests) had more support than the Pro OU Landorus side does now which just goes to show how ridiculous the Pro Ban side has blown things out of proportion because Landorus isn't half the pokemon Aegislash was.
Landorus is not Deoxys. Both Deoxys were almost perfect at their respected jobs as many may recall, which was hazard stacking. I have already stated many of Landorus's flaws but I will reiterate some of them once again. Landorus is held back by its mediocre speed and defenses, which means it has to predict almost perfectly when it comes in to even partially qualify as the god people are making it out to be. Secondly, it has no spammable moves. Ground moves arent spammable in this metagame, Focus Blast has shaky accuracy, and the rest of its moves are powerful for coverage but won't be knocking over any buildings unless they are super effective hits. Due to it's average speed, Landorus will often only get one attack out before taking one itself, unlike say, Greninja. The fact that many of Landorus's checks are faster than it and can threaten it out really ensure that Lando will have to predict correctly to conserve momentum and do it's job. Then take into account that while Landorus may have great coverage, it needs three or four moves to accomplish this unlike something such as Terrakion or Zard X which mostly need two. Therefore, it is harder for Landorus to successfully predict the right more because it has more choices.
However, the most significant flaw with Landorus is it's risk vs. reward when the risk becomes "reality" over the reward (it mispredicts). When Charizard X mispredicts, something still takes a resisted Flare Blitz, which hurts. Same goes for Mega Gardevoire and Hyper Voice, Keldeo and Scald (burn chance), Metagross and Meteor Mash, Kyurem B and Outrage, Bisharp with Knock Off (lost item), and so on. The pokemon that predicted correctly and switched into these powerful moves still suffer consequences, be it taking lots of damage, risking a burn, losing an item, or a combination. They become signifcanty easier (maybe even crippled) for the given wall breaker or its teammates to break through later in the game. This is not the case with Landorus. Earth Power has many immunties and even with Sheer Force it's coverage will not be that powerful. Landous greatly relies on prediction and has a much harder time wearing down its checks and counters compared to many other pokemon.
The only legitimate reason I can see for banning Landorus would be to rejuvinate a stale metagame plagued by match up issues and stiff restraints on team building due to the large number of threats, of which Landorus being the greatest offender. I would be in favor of banning Landorus if someone or something proved this to be true, but so far the Suspect Ladder and arguements on this thread have not.
Now, my problem with this forum is that if I had never played competitive pokemon and I came here and read through many of the posts I would believe Landorus is a flawless, almighty god who obviousy should've been banned long ago but wasn't because the people in charge of the suspect tests are idiots who never got around to it. I would also think Landorus is in the conversation for one of the most broken things allowed in OU such as Mega Salamence and Mega Kangaskan, which isn't even close to true. In reality, if Landorus is to be banned it would be because the tier would be healthier and better off without it, not because it is an almighty, uncounterable, broken being.
Just gonna quote myself here because nobody addressed my arguement earlier and it got a good amount of support. I'm sure that one of the many pro-banners here would be happy to respond ;)
Landorus-i makes use of its neat movepool and its ability Sheer Force to function as, everyone now knows, a powerful wallbreaker, or thanks to the Rock Polish set, an effective late-game cleaner. Even though Landorus-i is generally regarded as a special attacker, it's great physical movepool combined with its high attack stat, yet uninvested, lets it make use of interesting moves including Rock Slide and Knock Off to smack its potential checks and counters and potentially give to dangerous threats such as a CM Keldeo or Tail Glow Manaphy a way easier time to get through balanced builds. Indeed, Landorus is probably one of the most effective and the easier customisable sweeper OU has, being able to mold its moveset much in the same way Thundurus does with Knock Off, Iron Tail, Superpower opting to beat as said earlier certain checks/counters and have a more favorable match-up versus one playstyle or another depending on what the player wants.
There is also one interesting move Landorus-I has, Calm Mind, that much people seems to forsake lately while it actually still keeps the same benefits as the mixed set at beating its common checks, namely Assault Vest Tornadus-T that straight up loses the 1v1 considering hurricane has only 3.2% chance to 2hko it after one Calm Mind and one Stealth Rock damage, while Psychic is a clean 2hko to it without rocks. Oh, and it is allowed to live a Scald/Icy Wind from scarf keldy, and more especially a Draco Meteor from life orb latios after one calm mind/stealth rock entry as well, while getting the KO back with Sludge Wave with the LO recoil, which is def. respectable. Its also a great way to reliably beat a bunch of defensive mons, including Mew or even max special defense Gliscor 1v1 and then not rely too much on your item.
Add to all those the fact that it sits as a damn useful speed tier, 101, which is the exact speed required to outpace about these whole 100 bases that may stand for at least 1/3 of the OU tier, and might who knows, even make a great use of modest nature considering it already outspeeds neutral nature ones anyway, which is huge and is why i am leaning towards to ban Landorus-I from OU.
I was gone for like 2 months from the end of the Metagross test till the very end of the Aegis retest. During that time the metagame hasn't changed too drastically besides on thing. Lando-I continued to not only run rampant but it also got better. It showed it's potential to adapt to any of its checks and it's supposed counters very quickly.
You can't really compare Lando to any past suspects because unlike Greninja or Metagross (let's be honest, you knew exactly what they were running), you really don't know what set it could be running. Not only that, combine it with just sheer power makes this mon incredibly hard to switch into. Its presence is something that actually forces balance to run loads of fat shit just to try and check it. I don't see how stall runs rampant with it gone tbh. I'm sure we're all tired of seeing the same slowbro/king-gliscor-ferro-tran fat cores that seems to plague balance these days. I won't be able to get reqs but if I could, I'd vote ban on this thing.
TL;DR: Just bring soul dew down to ou so latis can counter. Too easy.
Just gonna quote myself here because nobody addressed my arguement earlier and it got a good amount of support. I'm sure that one of the many pro-banners here would be happy to respond ;)
The thing to remember about the suspect system is we ban the most broken stuff first, and then move down the list as far as we need to go in order to have a balanced metagame. MegaMence, Greninja, Deoxys, etc. went first because the metagame revolved around themselves, as you have pointed out. We've now moved down the list to Landorus for myriad reasons others have already posted ad nauseum in this thread. Landorus lost many of its checks with prior suspect testing, so while it may not have been broken in a Megamence meta, it is now. Landorus does not have to be perfect, but it has a ton going for it with 3 very effective builds that can take down any type of team. It is not reasonable with 50 legitimate OU threats to have to prepare 3 different teamslots to take care of 3 different Landorus sets, all of which have different checks and counters. And frankly, misprediction isn't a big deal when it doesn't have any Life Orb recoil if it guesses wrong. Do you really want to switch your Latias on a predicted Earth Power only to have it Pursuited by Bisharp or Tyranitar?
The lack of counters is not by itself a good argument, and I don't think people ITT should cite it as a reason for Landorus to be banned. Lots of Pokemon are devoid of counters, but are held back in other ways. You should cite its godly typing, lack of Life Orb recoil, lack of a Mega Stone, trolltastic base 101 speed and great matchups vs. offense.
Just a reminder that the vote identification thread is up and that you have the rest of tonight, tomorrow and tuesday to post your reqs. The vote id thread can be found here.
I am really sorry for not being able to participate in this test suspect, but I could not for personal reasons. But I want to speak my mind, Landorus-I has no actual check, or at least you should have only 1-2 pokemon exclusive to check. Lately in OU ladder you get to the point of revenge killer. Surely, however, with him out of the game the team will take foot stall even more.
Having obtained reqs it's about time I posted my thoughts on Lando-I. For the record, I'm concretelyNO BAN.
>Lando has a limited set of niche counters and checks that are easily dealt with by another set.
This argument is the predominant one I've seen in this thread and absolutely atrocious. By this logic there are tons of pokémon that can take out most of their normal checks/counters with a surprise set. Using lures and surprise sets is a core element of pokemon. Lando-I with RP and/or rock slide beating AV torn switch ins? Lando-I with knock off bothering your latis? That's the game. By using any of these coverage moves everyone claims make Landorus too strong, just means your team suddenly has a new mon that should be able to deal with it. At least if the team is beat half decently.
>Lando forces the opponent to scout the set in order to properly counter him. But that requires sacrificing 1 or more mons or taking heavy damage
SO WHAT? Everyone here is acting like scouting is some new age tool. Scouting is, AND ALWAYS WILL BE, a part of pokemon. You have to take a risk or make a guess based on the team sometimes - that's mons. This doesn't make Landorus broken. It just makes a mindgame - which tons of pokemon can cause. Should we ban lati twins with EQ/tbolt because tran and skarm get destroyed by it? Or do we try to make an educated guess and switch out? The nature of scouting is inherently risky - lando has jack-shit to do with it. The bigger issue here is lando commonly runs other sets, whereas most other mons with the potential to do it don't. Lati twins are Draco/Psy/Defog all the time, but that doesn't mean they can't run surprises to beat checks. If I'm playing versus a Mega-Metagross I have to find out if he has grass knot so I can use Slowbro to counter him. Sure he might nuke something else I have because I tried to check, but that's the game. Those kind of pseudo-50/50s WILL NEVER disappear. They've been around since Gen 3. (Some could argue GSC as well given Snorlax getting LK/Fblast/Thunder - but that's another topic).
A well done scout can net a solid player a win - with the knowledge of set they can determine not only a good check/counter, but a win con on their team.
>Landorus is too strong because ANY of it's sets prove to be a solid addition versus ANY team archetype.
Unfortunately this is an opinion that is overstated, and exaggerated as well. There are claims that Lando-I can sweep and/or break walls - but it's either or, and not even the best sweeper. And even then it's not some guaranteed late game sweep with just 1 boosting move. If you're getting 6-0d by Modest Rock Polish, then your team needs fixing. Stall has answers to this in terms of special tanks (and even people like skarmory who take nothing at all). Well built offense has the ability to put enough pressure on him that he can't even AFFORD to use RP. And using RP means your moves certainly won't be hitting as hard, thus making breaking ANY wall nigh impossible. OU offers a PLETHORA of pokemon that can stop lando from daring to waste a turn RPing as they get a free switch. The most common examples are the latis and weavile. And even keldeo/other genies to an extent prevent it. People acting like a +2 speed lando is similar to +1 zard or +2 sharp. Not even comparable!
Yes 101 speed is fast, but given speed creep in OU and the megas we have access to, it's nothing. Mega Zam, Mega Lop, Mega Gross are all potent threats that outspeed and destroy lando-i. It also lacks ANY relevant bulk to be able to take hits. Sure ground flying is a fantastic typing, but it's not enough to cover up for his weaknesses to any neutral hitting stabs across OU! Almost any well built OU team will have a lando check already built into it! It's ridiculous to think there are no options versus landorus.
Running CM for the special bulk and nuking power is great, but suddenly you're left at just 101 speed and there are TONS of monsters waiting to come in and take you out in OU. He just can't afford to run it except versus stall. Sure CM Lando basically 6-0s stall, but that's the point. It's essentially a counter-style. It's like stating M. Diancie kills bulk chomp in one hit - this is what happens if these things face off. That isn't the problem of lando, other mons are capable of doing this versus certain styles as well - hello +1 Zard X destroying people??
4 attacks lando - the 'black sheep' (not even) of lando sets. This is the set that can give a lot of teams trouble due to scouting being much more difficult, but once you know it's stuck at 101 speed and can't boost for shit - you should WITHOUT A DOUBT have a mon that can come and scare it off.
>Lando basically gets a kill every time it comes in
Haven't seen this argument around much, but this is no different than tons of strong revengers. Weavile nukes basically the entire tier with it's coverage and nothing comes in safely to knock/LK with shard coming afterwards. Is weavile suddenly banworthy? Shouldn't teams have more weavile checks??? Of course not, that is the nature of revenging with an offensive pokemon. Get over it.
tl;dr - all of landos sets can be handled by most high level OU teams, and any exceptions are due to poorly built teams/bad matchup - NOTHING due to Lando-I and his inherent strengths. He restricts nothing, and certainly not even close to as defining as bisharp, or zam/lop etc.
THE REAL TL;DR
niggas acting like lando is:
when he's really just
1. Rock Polish + 3 Attacks
2. Has Rock Slide/HP Ice + 2 standard moves
3. Knock + 3 Attacks 4. Stealth Rock (lol) + 3
Lati twins and keldeo can run upwards of 3 sets as well to help deal with normal checks/counters and have a better speed, but they sure as fuck aren't broken and neither is Lando.
>Lando forces the opponent to scout the set in order to properly counter him. But that requires sacrificing 1 or more mons or taking heavy damage
SO WHAT? Everyone here is acting like scouting is some new age tool. Scouting is, AND ALWAYS WILL BE, a part of pokemon. You have to take a risk or make a guess based on the team sometimes - that's mons. This doesn't make Landorus broken. It just makes a mindgame - which tons of pokemon can cause. Should we ban lati twins with EQ/tbolt because tran and skarm get destroyed by it? Or do we try to make an educated guess and switch out? The nature of scouting is inherently risky - lando has jack-shit to do with it.
Do you realize that these mindgames are the exact reason why mons like Greninja and Aegislash got banned? It's also like DPP's Salamence, which could run a mixed set or a DD set and you would have to guess which one it is by playing around it if you didn't have any counter. And that's also pretty much the point, there are almost no counters to these threats. Sure, there are some like Porygon2 or Suicune which could counter certain sets of Salamence back in DPP or Latias-Mega for Lando-I, you even may have a counter to certain sets without even knowing it, like a specially defensive Skarmory for a Stealth Rocks/Earth Power/HP Ice/Sludge Wave set, but the point is you can lose half of your team by trying to figure out the set. The game doesn't have to be this guessing game, not to that extent anyways.
I think some people underestimate Lando-I, because they win some battles against it. This is especially obvious when people are playing less playstyles, for example only offense. Sure, you could run a Mega-Lopunny team with Weavile and Mamoswine and call it not broken because you didn't have any problem with it, but as soon as your well build balance or stall team gets destroyed by a Lando-I which is used with some momentum, you'd realize that a pokemon, which depending on its moveset basically 2HKOs the metagame, is in fact broken.
All of the reasons why Landorus-I should be banned have already been named in the last 24 pages and most of it reminds me of Greninja. Raw power, almost STAB-like moves with sheer force, a lot of coverage, not even a mega. Lando is slower but not as frail, but still can lategame sweep with Rock Polish, it can lay Stealth Rocks and break walls. But the most importing thing is, you can almost slap it on any team if your squad is missing one last member without doing much wrong, which on the other side limits teambuilding itself. I'll definitely vote ban on this thing, because it only improves the tier.
That's something that half the metagame can do. Tons of mons have the power and coverage to nail their counters with lure moves and moves like HP ice/Rock slide are nothing more than lure moves because they hit like 2 or 3 targets and do jackshit against anything else.
And as someone who plays balance quite a lot i can say that Lando-Is performance vs balance is vastly overrated in this topic. What people just forget all the time is how prediction reliant he is. There is so much stuff in the meta that can force it out unless Lando has 1. the right move and 2. predicts correctly when the check comes in. That are 2 pretty big ifs in practice but nobody seems to care. Even stuff like phys def Rotom-w can come in on him and force him out if he goes for EP, HP Ice, Knock off or RS. Not sure about Sludgewave (and cant calc rn) but iirc not even that 2hkoes without rocks against physical def rotom-w.
Yeah Lando can just switch out but he has no recovery and if your opponent knows his stuff you wont get free switch ins with him all the time. From my experience you can switch Lando in 2 maybe 3 during the game before he is to weak to stomach another hit, that's it. And for these situations its perfectly fine if you have 2 or 3 one time checks on your team which are very easy to find since pretty much everything with levitate/flying type that can outspeed and/or live a hit from any move and force him out is a check and that's a whole lot of stuff. And if he is a really big problem for your team you always have the option on just saccing something to get damage of on him. If he got in against your Clefs Moonblast, even if you know Sludge Wave is coming, just take the hit and go for another Moonblast, now Lando is on like 20-30% and not much of a threat anymore. And if your lucky he didn't even go for Sludgewave because he predicted your Skarm to come in and then the all mighty Landorus just dies in vain because he misspredicted. That's the big difference to Greninja. Greninja outsped pretty much everything that had enough bulk to switch into him and 2hkoed basicly everything with Darkpulse + coverage move. He didn't have to predict at all and in terms of power and overall usefulness his coverage options were a whole different league compared to Lando.
Imo its much more difficult for balance to deal with stuff like Medicham or Gardevoir because, unless you have a counter they just nail everything with their stabs alone, its much harder to play around them cause they don't have to predict. If there is a Garde facing you and you don't have Scizor/Rachi something is bound die as Voice/Fblast kills pretty much everything. Against Lando you can often get away unharmed because he ends up giving free turns when he uses the wrong move. And yeah prediction goes both ways, that's exactly my point. You cant just assume that Lando has always the right coverage move and also always predicts right as to which check will come in. I won't argue the fact that Lando-I is incredibly hard to deal with on paper and that your never 100% safe from it, but in practice its not as hard as it seems in theory and certainly not as hard as people here are making it out to be.
I'll make this short since it's pretty much rehashing old post but yeah.
- Great coverage makes it very hard to switch into, this alone causes switches giving landorus ample chance to rock polish if it has it.
- Outspeeds the entire meta after a Rock Polish
- One shots a large portion of the OU metagame after SR damage.
- Great typing with two immunities, plenty of chances to switch in and give the user momentum in a game.
- Counters are few and far between, same with checks and most checks hate switching in, with two of the best two being easily trapped and killed and the rest are pretty much fodder for hazard setters to get layers up.
Basically since the start of ORAS I have honestly been forced to use shitty ass assault-vest user and/or lati@s on literally every team, or Talonflame but rock slide is now a thing.
This thing puts huge stress on team building and often people are using a specific pokemon just to deal with Landorus-I.
It's almost undeinable; I feel, that not banning Landorus-I has a negative affect on the metagame, banning it definately creats slightly more balance in the metagame and stability, making it more competitive and enjoyable for most people.
I feel like people are exaggerating Lando's power even after all this time and everything has been said. Lando is a great wallbreaker and barely has switch-ins. That's true, no denying about that.
However, having no switch-ins doesn't mean broken. Remember BW Hydreigon? No switch-ins either. Why wasn't it broken?
It was easily checked by the offensive mons that ran rampant through the meta. This is the same case. Landorus' presence in the metagame forces team to not be 100% passive as they could or wished that they could, and forces them to run something with some sort of offensive pressure. Yes, Lando excels against balanced team. That's his, and many other wallbreakers, job. Also, before anyone replys "Lando just switches out on that hit" you have to remember that something switches in to take that hit, Lando mostly takes SR damage the next time it gets in AND the another hit on the switch-in as well (unless it switches in to revenge something which could be said on any mon). On the case Landorus carries Rock Polish to outspeed his offensive checks, he lacks important coverage which your balance team can and should abuse. Yes, you have to scout. Yes, your balance team is still at a disadvantage to make that scout. However, again, that's his job, and that's no different than scouting Manaphy's coverage moves or lure moves on Kyurem-Black.
For those reason, I think Landorus presence in the metagame is positive, and shouldn't be banned.
Also, the "Lando stops volt-turn teams due to typing" argument is pretty much bullshit. Besides Magnezone, ALL users of Volt Switch in ou commonly (pretty much the only one that isn't guaranteed is Zapdos) carry a move to hit Landorus for SE damage, and all of them either outspeed Landorus, or can take a hit from it (Landorus has to run max attack (lmao) to even have a chance to KO with Rosk Slide after Stealth rock) and hit Landorus back HARD. Landorus isn't switching in OR staying on none of these threats.
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 234-278 (60.9 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 257-304 (66.9 - 79.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I feel like people are exaggerating Lando's power even after all this time and everything has been said. Lando is a great wallbreaker and barely has switch-ins. That's true, no denying about that.
However, having no switch-ins doesn't mean broken. Remember BW Hydreigon? No switch-ins either. Why wasn't it broken?
It was easily checked by the offensive mons that ran rampant through the meta. This is the same case. Landorus' presence in the metagame forces team to not be 100% passive as they could or wished that they could, and forces them to run something with some sort of offensive pressure. Yes, Lando excels against balanced team. That's his, and many other wallbreakers, job. Also, before anyone replys "Lando just switches out on that hit" you have to remember that something switches in to take that hit, Lando mostly takes SR damage the next time it gets in AND the another hit on the switch-in as well (unless it switches in to revenge something which could be said on any mon). On the case Landorus carries Rock Polish to outspeed his offensive checks, he lacks important coverage which your balance team can and should abuse. Yes, you have to scout. Yes, your balance team is still at a disadvantage to make that scout. However, again, that's his job, and that's no different than scouting Manaphy's coverage moves or lure moves on Kyurem-Black.
For those reason, I think Landorus presence in the metagame is positive, and shouldn't be banned.
Also, the "Lando stops volt-turn teams due to typing" argument is pretty much bullshit. Besides Magnezone, ALL users of Volt Switch in ou commonly (pretty much the only one that isn't guaranteed is Zapdos) carry a move to hit Landorus for SE damage, and all of them either outspeed Landorus, or can take a hit from it (Landorus has to run max attack (lmao) to even have a chance to KO with Rosk Slide after Stealth rock) and hit Landorus back HARD. Landorus isn't switching in OR staying on none of these threats.
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 234-278 (60.9 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 257-304 (66.9 - 79.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
The difference between Lando and other wallbreakers and other "near-impossible to counter" mons is the low-risk high reward factor Lando offers. Neutral to SR, doesn't need to setup to be a threat, no recoil from life orb, 2 immunities and good defensive typing and respectable bulk for offensive mon and good speed tier.
Though it is worth mentioning that I don't think Lando can take much advantage of these two immunities as elec types pretty much always have ice coverage and beside Zapdos and Rotom-W the most prominent elect types are faster than Lando, who needs rock slide to beat Zapdos and Rotom-W ohko's Lando after SR while Lando fails to ohko it back. Magnezone isn't very common atm and but it can still 2hko Lando with flash cannon with scarf.
252 SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 159-187 (49.8 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
Also, all ground mons have a way to deal with levitating and flying mons, Gliscor and Lando-T often carry knock off, Hippo and Garchomp have toxic, coverage moves and whirlwind/dragon tail making Lando hesitant to switch into those so-called "free switchins". So while Lando is hard to switch into, it can also have a hard time to switch in unless you let something die.
Also worth mentioning that while most of Lando's moves take advantage of sheer force; hp ice, knock off and u-turn don't get the boost. So it gets recoil from these moves and most lando have at least one of these moves in their sets unless if they are the cm set. Not a huge thing, but it does chip away it's health so it is not that difficult to wear down as some people make it out to be, especially u-turn because that set tends to switch in and out pretty often and assuming SR it loses 22% of it's health assuming it doesn't get hit.
The difference between Lando and other wallbreakers and other "near-impossible to counter" mons is the low-risk high reward factor Lando offers. Neutral to SR, doesn't need to setup to be a threat, no recoil from life orb, 2 immunities and good defensive typing and respectable bulk for offensive mon and good speed tier.
Actually out of those "near-impossible to counter" mons Landorus has the worst bulk, actually has to setup to function as well against offense (whereas Kyurem-Black can run scarf), has 0 recovery opposed to Manaphy and Kyurem and its item is pretty much limited to LO. What Lando has for it is hitting the hardest from the get-go, having a very good movepool to choose from, making it unpredictable, and a (slightly) better speed tier.
Does it make it broken? The answer is still no.
Actually out of those "near-impossible to counter" mons Landorus has the worst bulk, actually has to setup to function as well against offense (whereas Kyurem-Black can run scarf)
Keep in mind that "worst bulk" is relative to you're typing even if you have less stats. Kyurem is Ice so it gets blown up by everyone's standard coverage moves they run alongside STAB. Lando is sporting two immunites and basically forcing peeps to dedicate one of their move slots to a hidden power that's really only meant for coverage on x4 weaknesses or something.
Actually out of those "near-impossible to counter" mons Landorus has the worst bulk, actually has to setup to function as well against offense (whereas Kyurem-Black can run scarf), has 0 recovery opposed to Manaphy and Kyurem and its item is pretty much limited to LO. What Lando has for it is hitting the hardest from the get-go, having a very good movepool to choose from, making it unpredictable, and a (slightly) better speed tier.
Does it make it broken? The answer is still no.
Landorus's bulk is numerically the worst, but it's backed by what is probably the best typing of the 3 balance breakers. In the case of Kyurem-B, Landorus has several more relevant resistances and neutralities compared to Kyurem (Fighting, Steel, and Fairy for example), so while Kyurem survives neutral hits better, there are many more relevant moves that Landorus takes better due to resisting things Kyu-B doesn't. Despite having such a meaty HP stat and passable defenses, Kyu-B's typing makes it, defensively, something that needs support more than it provides support compared to Landorus.
Manaphy does have better bulk, but Landorus's much greater immediate power, and even that slight speed increase, more than compensate for it since they indirectly mean Landorus doesn't have to take as many hits. Landorus never has to risk a Speed tie with the Base 100's like Manaphy (and to my knowledge, some Manaphy sets don't actually run max Speed), and Manaphy needs to get a Tail Glow before it has the ridiculous balance breaking power it's lauded for. Both of these factors result in a lot of situations where Manaphy takes 2 hits where Landorus would take 1, or situations that Landorus can swing momentum that Manaphy couldn't, since that set-up turn makes Manaphy hard to immediately bring in and apply pressure with even on a revenge.
Manaphy is an interesting case since I think he has a similar traits to Landorus: he can pick different sets to perform better and alleviate issues with different checks, such as Tail Glow + RD, Mono Attacker, TG + 3 attacks, or even CM for a different playstyle. The difference I find there is that Manaphy's set-up need is pretty much a constant problem regardless of the set: Landorus doesn't have any particularly crippling issue that persists across every set it could run; what one set has issues with another averts.
As far as Kyurem running a Scarf, the difference I find there is that Kyurem-B is making a trade: losing the ability to change moves and break balance cores as easily in exchange for greater speed to smack offensive teams. Landorus gets its balance breaking prowess in virtually every set, and then chooses what to add from there. Seeing Landorus on the opposing team already tells me my defensive core has to tread carefully, but I don't know if it has AoA to limit those options, or Rock Polish to exploit cautious play to clean up later. Kyurem-B I generally see and know I have to play offensively against, but if it reveals a Scarf by outspeeding something, then I don't have to eliminate offensive options as well, but rather now know that defensive plays would work better.
Being limited to a Life Orb isn't exactly terrible for Landorus when it allows him basically no consequence to reach a level of power most Pokemon need a Choice item for. Landorus doesn't desperately need Leftovers since, unlike Kyurem, he's not vulnerable to the majority of passive damage sources in the metagame. Leftovers give Kyu-B a way to offset health lost to Subs or entry hazards, and he amost can't run LO well because rather than mitigate, it would only exacerbate his longevity issues. Manaphy could possibly run LO, but it's less efficient since he reaches an obscene power level anyway after set up, but beforehand still isn't doing anything too impressive even with that boost, to say nothing of the passive damage cutting into his health and making him possible to wear out for Balance and Stall. I'm not even sure I'd say Landorus is "limited" to Life Orb so much as it just being the most obviously optimal choice, since he doesn't outright sacrifice anything by using, relative to what he gains.
Landorus's bulk is numerically the worst, but it's backed by what is probably the best typing of the 3 balance breakers. In the case of Kyurem-B, Landorus has several more relevant resistances and neutralities compared to Kyurem (Fighting, Steel, and Fairy for example), so while Kyurem survives neutral hits better, there are many more relevant moves that Landorus takes better due to resisting things Kyu-B doesn't. Despite having such a meaty HP stat and passable defenses, Kyu-B's typing makes it, defensively, something that needs support more than it provides support compared to Landorus.
Manaphy does have better bulk, but Landorus's much greater immediate power, and even that slight speed increase, more than compensate for it since they indirectly mean Landorus doesn't have to take as many hits. Landorus never has to risk a Speed tie with the Base 100's like Manaphy (and to my knowledge, some Manaphy sets don't actually run max Speed), and Manaphy needs to get a Tail Glow before it has the ridiculous balance breaking power it's lauded for. Both of these factors result in a lot of situations where Manaphy takes 2 hits where Landorus would take 1, or situations that Landorus can swing momentum that Manaphy couldn't, since that set-up turn makes Manaphy hard to immediately bring in and apply pressure with even on a revenge.
Manaphy is an interesting case since I think he has a similar traits to Landorus: he can pick different sets to perform better and alleviate issues with different checks, such as Tail Glow + RD, Mono Attacker, TG + 3 attacks, or even CM for a different playstyle. The difference I find there is that Manaphy's set-up need is pretty much a constant problem regardless of the set: Landorus doesn't have any particularly crippling issue that persists across every set it could run; what one set has issues with another averts.
As far as Kyurem running a Scarf, the difference I find there is that Kyurem-B is making a trade: losing the ability to change moves and break balance cores as easily in exchange for greater speed to smack offensive teams. Landorus gets its balance breaking prowess in virtually every set, and then chooses what to add from there. Seeing Landorus on the opposing team already tells me my defensive core has to tread carefully, but I don't know if it has AoA to limit those options, or Rock Polish to exploit cautious play to clean up later. Kyurem-B I generally see and know I have to play offensively against, but if it reveals a Scarf by outspeeding something, then I don't have to eliminate offensive options as well, but rather now know that defensive plays would work better.
Being limited to a Life Orb isn't exactly terrible for Landorus when it allows him basically no consequence to reach a level of power most Pokemon need a Choice item for. Landorus doesn't desperately need Leftovers since, unlike Kyurem, he's not vulnerable to the majority of passive damage sources in the metagame. Leftovers give Kyu-B a way to offset health lost to Subs or entry hazards, and he amost can't run LO well because rather than mitigate, it would only exacerbate his longevity issues. Manaphy could possibly run LO, but it's less efficient since he reaches an obscene power level anyway after set up, but beforehand still isn't doing anything too impressive even with that boost, to say nothing of the passive damage cutting into his health and making him possible to wear out for Balance and Stall. I'm not even sure I'd say Landorus is "limited" to Life Orb so much as it just being the most obviously optimal choice, since he doesn't outright sacrifice anything by using, relative to what he gains.
While I'm glad you took the time to refer to my post point by point your post actually makes me want to just stop posting in this thread for arguing about this isn't fun anymore because in your entire post you have:
1. Not made 1 regard to the issue about Lando's brokenness or presence on the metagame, which is the point of the discussion. You've pretty much just deconstructed my post to try to make Landorus seem different from other balance breakers when in reality they all break balance really good.
2. Used arguments that are plainly wrong, stuff runs hp ice for lando? Good joke. It's being run for good coverage with other attacking types and to hit for quad SE mons that are actually bulky such as Gliscor, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Dragonite, etc. Landorus switching in on resisted moves? Fighting attacks, maybe. Switching Lando on a U-Turn is pretty much the worst play you could do and poison attacks are pretty much only ran as STAB (with the exception of Landorus itself, and Conkeldurr, maybe). That's in addition to Kyurem's ability to take even SE hits while Lando barely takes neutral.
3. Make obsolete points. I'm pretty much sure 100% of the people watching this thread know the trade choice scarf makes. However if the scarf is revealed when Kyu-b outsped that thing is probably dead because you stayed on it and I have now blown a hole in your offensive core because you didn't scout for the item. Kyu-b forcing you to scout for its item gives its user momentum and the option to bluff a scarf to get a free hit or free sub on things it would usually can't, which is something Landorus never gets. Manaphy also has some great items to make its opponent question itself when he doesn't see leftovers recovery such as Wacan Berry, Splash plate and maybe a few more which I don't know because I honestly don't use Manaphy as often as the other 2.
Anyway this is all straying from the main point which is that the pro-ban side don't actually have an argument to which why Landorus is broken or unhealthy for the metagame. Someone will probably deconstruct this post as well to show why I'm "wrong" but this has really taken the fun out of this so you really shouldn't bother anymore.
