the only thing that should be kept banned is Dark Void. it's completely broken.
1. Already been stated multiple upon multiples of times in the thread so I feel no need to expand further.If we look at this the sketchy way, I'd say there are two opinions.
1) Why would we remove Sleep Clause?
2) Why did we need Sleep Clause in the first place?
You missed my point completely and utterly; those were not my questions.1. Already been stated multiple upon multiples of times in the thread so I feel no need to expand further.
As for the second question, it's far easier to answer. The official doubles meta started in gen 5 where there were 2 huge differences with sleep, the first being sleep turns being reset upon switching, and the second being no grass type immunity and overcoat buff.
(my post in the meta discussion thread).One of the main problems with using sleep at the moment is that the execution of multiple sleep powders/ spores actually requires a fair amount of team support in the form of fake out, wide guard, quick guard, taunt, follow me, rage powder etc to make sure your inducer can both stay healthy and be able to pull off the move. While all good doubles teams carry one or more of these, it's not always simple to have this support in play at the same time as your sleep inducer and then, once you do have this support, it can still be played around through the use of prediction or even a dedicated sleep answer. As well as this, i found when using amoongus that once i had successfully put 2 opponents to sleep, i largely couldn't do all that much work against them because amoongus is piss weak and the mon i had at the time had a bad matchup against his pokes because its role in this situation was to support the mushroom. This means that the free turns I had gotten were deceptively short.
Can't really add something new because he pretty much wrote my opinion about sleep.Sleep is a shit tactic anyways, it's hilariously unreliable and has such a high opportunity cost forcing you to use shit pokes, and items that barely benefit you. Sleep improves the metagame because it's not broken but it adds to the metagame. It's not something any team an rely on to win, but it gives players more options to check stuff and punish opponents for being too slow or unprepared.
I see no reason to keep the sleep clause, it doesnt make the game any more fun.
WAIT FOR MEGood discussion going, guys. I'll keep this thread open while the council and I identify the eligible voters (actual voting may most probably not happen today). So start/keep on discussing to help improve your chance in being included into the voter pool. Also don't forget to post in the Metagame Discussion thread as well.
I honestly think that it's something all players have to adapt. If you are to play in a different metagame, you have to be prepared to learn how to deal with the things that are present in that metagame, purely and simple. If you are to play Ubers, you have to know what you'll find that. The same goes for VGC and for Doubles. Each metagame has different nuances, and the players must adapt.It'll hurt our playerbase.
Yes, I know, Sleep Clause isn't strictly necessary - but I am deeply concerned about the effects it will have on both keeping existing players and taking in new players. While a fairly large portion of our playerbase joined with prior experience in VGC, many of our members come from OU, which has (and is unlikely to lose) Sleep Clause. These players, used to a metagame where their team isn't constantly at risk of a mass nap attack, will likely be turned off of Doubles the second their Heatran and Charizard both get put to sleep in the same battle. I know I've had several battles where I've been cursed out for a little Spore spam because people didn't realize that's what we were suspecting before.
As the leader of Other Metagames, being able to attract and keep a playerbase is very important to me - and removing Sleep Clause seems like a step in the wrong direction if we choose to go through with it. Of course, the lack of Sleep Clause could end up drawing in more players from the other side of the spectrum, but in this case I would very much rather maintain the status quo.
This pretty much sums up my thinking, along with Arcticblast's concerns. While I do agree that some new folks will be turned off by the idea that they can get Sleep Spammed, just as many will embrace the idea and try it out themselves. And then once they hit a certain point where it stops working (around 1300 ELO) they will start realizing what works and what doesn't, which is the goal anyways. I'm ok with losing a couple new people here and there that can't handle a little extra thought during teambuilding if it means we will have a much better caliber of players joining and learning.I honestly think that it's something all players have to adapt. If you are to play in a different metagame, you have to be prepared to learn how to deal with the things that are present in that metagame, purely and simple. If you are to play Ubers, you have to know what you'll find that. The same goes for VGC and for Doubles. Each metagame has different nuances, and the players must adapt.
Sleep clause is not necessary for Doubles, because it's an unreliable strategy, and the lack of it will attract more players, like me, that mainly play VGC, and want to try a new way to play it, without chosing 4 to bring to the table, which means only one Mega per team and a little deeper thinking while teambuilding.
I agree that you can't spam spore, but surely you can spam fake out + spore leads which I have seen running around on the ladder? Even if the person has lum berry , the fake out flinch can allow you to scout for that and sleep the poke again.WAIT FOR ME
As much as I prefer it, Sleep Clause isn't strictly necessary in the metagame. Pretty much every reason has already been stated and restated, but for the sake of making a post with content in it I'll just re-restate stuff. You can't exactly spam Spore / Sleep Powder without some consequences - namely getting your partner or potentially your Sleeper knocked out by the target's partner. There's a lot of countermeasures (Safeguard, Lum Berry, Safety Goggles Follow Me, Grass-types, Overcoat, fast Taunt, just plain outspeeding shit, hell even Sweet Veil if you're one of those weird people using Slurpuff). The impact on the metagame is fairly minimal. I've seen a shift to faster-paced offense personally, but that could easily be attributed to simple metagame trends.
It'll hurt our playerbase.
Yes, I know, Sleep Clause isn't strictly necessary - but I am deeply concerned about the effects it will have on both keeping existing players and taking in new players. While a fairly large portion of our playerbase joined with prior experience in VGC, many of our members come from OU, which has (and is unlikely to lose) Sleep Clause. These players, used to a metagame where their team isn't constantly at risk of a mass nap attack, will likely be turned off of Doubles the second their Heatran and Charizard both get put to sleep in the same battle. I know I've had several battles where I've been cursed out for a little Spore spam because people didn't realize that's what we were suspecting before.
As the leader of Other Metagames, being able to attract and keep a playerbase is very important to me - and removing Sleep Clause seems like a step in the wrong direction if we choose to go through with it. Of course, the lack of Sleep Clause could end up drawing in more players from the other side of the spectrum, but in this case I would very much rather maintain the status quo.
I personally think Shaymin-S deserves a suspect test in the sleep metagame, but right now isn't the time. (I might just be salty anyway blah)
Kind of hard to spam a lead tbhI agree that you can't spam spore, but surely you can spam fake out + spore leads which I have seen running around on the ladder? Even if the person has lum berry , the fake out flinch can allow you to scout for that and sleep the poke again.
I mean if they keep on switching in and out and spamming fake out + spore if you have a team that has a lot of fake out + sporers (eg; mega kanga + smeargle) it can count as spam no? and thanks :DKind of hard to spam a lead tbh
(also I merged your posts !_!)
I'm sorry, but maybe you don't properly understand the nature of Doubles. The metagame is way faster than singles OU, and that's the main reason it was chosen as Nintendo's official Meta. Even with 6 instead of 4, it's still a fast metagame. The amount of switches is really limited, since your Pokémon can be double targetted and die instantly, or your other Pokémon will.I mean if they keep on switching in and out and spamming fake out + spore if you have a team that has a lot of fake out + sporers (eg; mega kanga + smeargle) it can count as spam no? and thanks :D
I think Venusaur is the only exception of a sleep inducer that is bulky, is not a slug and also can hit pretty hard. I'm really thinking about parting ways with my beloved Amoonguss solely for the fact that it can't OHKO anything on his own, doesn't have spread moves and has only 5 usable moves. And with Talonflame everywhere, he sometimes doesn't even survive turn one.adding on to what's been said, more often than not, giving up a team slot for a sleep inducer can end up being a detriment rather than a benefit. With the fact that most sleep inducers are slow as hell combined with the relative frailty (amoonguss being the bulkiest while ... jumpluff in the sun being the fastest?) you can generally find something that can give you more value for the moveslot than a sleep inducer. If you're just gonna build a team with 6 sleep inducers and expect to win without properly supporting it, you're guaranteeing yourself a loss. Sleep is kind of in the middle of the spectrum; it's neither bad nor amazing and it sits along the line where it can easily be dealt with with minimal effort
fucking arcticblast
more often than not Pwnemon dislikes people saying more often than not
finally an argument that isn't just "I realize it's not broken but i just don't personally like it." However, I don't think the argument that sleep clause being removed would deter people from playing holds water—at least, it wouldn't deter the kind of people we WANT playing. Anyone from other tiers who tries out doubles has to approach it with an open mind anyways because it's so different; removing sleep clause is hardly going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back and makes them stop playing. If no sleep clause scares anyone off, it would be the people who try to use OU teams in Doubles anyways or worse, and sue me for not crying if we lose those folks. There's been no evidence that the sleep test has scared off potential Doubles contributors—this test has drawn far more people than the first Suspect Test, and most of them have been saying that sleep isn't broken, despite having never played the meta when sleep clause was here!It'll hurt our playerbase.
Yes, I know, Sleep Clause isn't strictly necessary - but I am deeply concerned about the effects it will have on both keeping existing players and taking in new players. While a fairly large portion of our playerbase joined with prior experience in VGC, many of our members come from OU, which has (and is unlikely to lose) Sleep Clause. These players, used to a metagame where their team isn't constantly at risk of a mass nap attack, will likely be turned off of Doubles the second their Heatran and Charizard both get put to sleep in the same battle. I know I've had several battles where I've been cursed out for a little Spore spam because people didn't realize that's what we were suspecting before.
As the leader of Other Metagames, being able to attract and keep a playerbase is very important to me - and removing Sleep Clause seems like a step in the wrong direction if we choose to go through with it. Of course, the lack of Sleep Clause could end up drawing in more players from the other side of the spectrum, but in this case I would very much rather maintain the status quo.