Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[Sulo]

Got a few thoughts on stuff that I've been working up since last night and earlier today that I'd like to share.

Iron Boulder

Iron Boulder @ literally whatever u want lol
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Mighty Cleave
- Close Combat
- Zen Headbutt
- Swords Dance

This thing looks really good on Terrain offense or even just some regular offense with Booster Energy; there's nothing relevant that outspeeds you at +1 and your coverage is amazing to boot. Signature move means you never have to gamble outside of Zen Headbutt and scouting is less reliable against it. On Electric Terrain teams, I've experimented with stuff like a Z-Crystal (only Rock so far) for a stronger hit on stuff like Landorus-T. Major threat that I wouldn't be surprised to see similar sentiments towards.

Broken Entei

Gouging Fire @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Z-Crystal (Dragon is most common ime)
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground / something that lets you set up vs things easier or just a stab tera for more dmg output
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute / Morning Sun / Earthquake / whatever u want tbh...
- Outrage
- Heat Crash
- Dragon Dance

Gouging Fire is a threat in National Dex OU matches (fact). Speed tier is just alright before setting up (even after setting up you're vulnerable to stuff like +1 Iron Valiant and Tapu Lele), but you can so easily circumvent that with Substitute + obvious Dragon Dance that it's hardly even noticeable. Haven't used it too much myself but I think Protosynthesis in Speed is viable, since getting the jump on revenge killers like Tapu Lele and having a natural advantage into faster threats like Mega Lopunny before setting up is huge. I don't really find that much value in its signature move because the thing functions much better as a sweeper to me, but I could be wrong, idk.

Not much else I've used yet besides Terapagos, but there's no point in saying anything about that because it's so outwardly broken that I'd be repeating what everyone else has been saying. Outside of the demon turtle, I hope everyone's been enjoying the DLC!

 

[Jônatas Braz]

I am also having great results with Substitute + Calm Mind. The stats + typing allow to setup substitute against a variety of pokemon. Having a second type with a strong stab like Draco Meteor is amazing for electric types. There are Gliscor everywhere lol

 

[Patar136]

Okay also wanna mention, ban the turtle. Enough is enough. This thing is way too restrictive.

 

[`ShadowTwo]

How much have Latios, Latias and their Megas improved in Nat Dex now that their signature moves have increased to 95 BP, Latios got Flip Turn and Latias Draining Kiss ?

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

natdex UU Is more concernés abt that. Well, From what i've seen, serperior+ Tera stallarblast Is dumbly BROKEN. the classic glare rng+ that silly 16pp move that Is just too much. Improving uR spatk by 1 each hit when u already hit a leafstorm Is a lot. While it has the same weaknesses, it can basically hit EVERYTHING witg that respectable speed tier

 

[Oculars]

tera sus when?

 

[Jônatas Braz]

tera sus when?

RT

 

[R8]

Imo a tera retest wouldn't make sense, at least right now. We already tested tera twice, and at this point we will have to respect the outcome of the vote. Let's be real, considering how much was needed to justify just a second tera suspect test (overwhelming survey results, two threads dedicated to the question (1, 2), a policy review thread), there is no way you'd be getting a third, and even if you somehow get it it might very well result on the same outcome. I also believe the tier clearly is improving every time a broken gets nuked, to the point I believe taking action on tera might eventually not be necessary anymore. My main concern with Tera is and always was how hard it can be to properly prepare for threats when they can abuse the mechanic, but as the time went on I felt like getting rid of the stupid stuff was an efficient way to improve the tier from that point of view.

On a related note, please quickban Terapagos lol

 

[Jônatas Braz]

Imo a tera retest wouldn't make sense, at least right now. We already tested tera twice, and at this point we will have to respect the outcome of the vote. Let's be real, considering how much was needed to justify just a second tera suspect test (overwhelming survey results, two threads dedicated to the question (1, 2), a policy review thread), there is no way you'd be getting a third, and even if you somehow get it it might very well result on the same outcome. I also believe the tier clearly is improving every time a broken gets nuked, to the point I believe taking action on tera might eventually not be necessary anymore. My main concern with Tera is and always was how hard it can be to properly prepare for threats when they can abuse the mechanic, but as the time went on I felt like getting rid of the stupid stuff was an efficient way to improve the tier from that point of view.

On a related note, please quickban Terapagos lol

I feel like many pokemon were banned not because of the pokemon itself, but because of tera, but you're right about the suspect. I actually forgot that new tera is coming out, it seems to be fairer (at least compared with current one).

I still didn't try Terapagos though

 

[Epicgamergod69]

Imo a tera retest wouldn't make sense, at least right now. We already tested tera twice, and at this point we will have to respect the outcome of the vote. Let's be real, considering how much was needed to justify just a second tera suspect test (overwhelming survey results, two threads dedicated to the question (1, 2), a policy review thread), there is no way you'd be getting a third, and even if you somehow get it it might very well result on the same outcome. I also believe the tier clearly is improving every time a broken gets nuked, to the point I believe taking action on tera might eventually not be necessary anymore. My main concern with Tera is and always was how hard it can be to properly prepare for threats when they can abuse the mechanic, but as the time went on I felt like getting rid of the stupid stuff was an efficient way to improve the tier from that point of view.

On a related note, please quickban Terapagos lol

Raaaa Aegislash was sussed like 8 times so as such more than 2 suspect tests isn't unprecedented.
On a side note no I will not accept the outcome because it's not the right outcome also there are all of oh right zero good pro tera arguments and it is the reason that over half of the mons we have banned are broken. In conclusion I believe a third tera sus IS in fact called for and justified as we have yet another mon that is broken because of tera Terapagos and tera is just unhealthy for any future this metagame could hope to have. Why should we treat tera any different then we treat a broken pokemon?

 

[The N@me User]

Imo a tera retest wouldn't make sense, at least right now. We already tested tera twice, and at this point we will have to respect the outcome of the vote. Let's be real, considering how much was needed to justify just a second tera suspect test (overwhelming survey results, two threads dedicated to the question (1, 2), a policy review thread), there is no way you'd be getting a third, and even if you somehow get it it might very well result on the same outcome. I also believe the tier clearly is improving every time a broken gets nuked, to the point I believe taking action on tera might eventually not be necessary anymore. My main concern with Tera is and always was how hard it can be to properly prepare for threats when they can abuse the mechanic, but as the time went on I felt like getting rid of the stupid stuff was an efficient way to improve the tier from that point of view.

On a related note, please quickban Terapagos lol

Why don't we hold a survey to ensure the community is actually in favor Tera staying?

 

[Nashrock]

Why don't we hold a survey to ensure the community is actually in favor Tera staying?

Because we already had TWO suspect tests and both of them resulted in a DNB. If we can get as many suspects as we want as long as someone isn’t satisfied with the result, then what’s the point of all the process we’ve been through? Can I demand that we should take a second look at any mon we banned already?

 

[Aesiro13]

I can't stay quiet about this anymore. is a dumpster truck forged of obsidian hurtling at everything in its vicinity at the speed of God in reverse. Or in layman's terms, it is criminally underrated. It has an absolutely stupid stat spread that makes it one of the bulkiest mons ever, with a Defense stat that surpasses Shuckle as well as a pretty decent Special Defense stat and a great Attack stat. Of course this is held back by it being the slowest Pokemon in the game. Or, at least it would be if it didn't have access to both Trick Room and Gyro Ball, turning it into one of the fastest and deadliest Pokemon in the tier with a 252+ Attack/ 0- 0IV Speed spread. It also has a great movepool, with a lot of heavy damage sources, coverage, and utility. Oh but wait, it's a Rock/Steel type, meaning it has two 4x weaknesses, guess Stakataka ain't that great after all. But guess what you dingleberry, this is Gen 9, which means it doesn't have those weaknesses and now either has Tera Flying for Ground Immunity or Tera Fighting for STAB on Body Press. And finally, for the cherry on top, its ability Beast Boost means that with every successful KO Stakataka gets, its Body Press becomes even more powerful and it becomes even tankier. #stakatakaforou

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

The problem here Is that It's An unseen level of power creep. Tera is a new way pf playing, Very original, It's z-moves' mega form. Tbh the problem is mostly in the builder. Tera killing some archetypes is not a sign of Tera being broken, It's Just that the meta is not favorable To that archetype. Tera is more of a problem in SV OU, While I think that banning It was nO Good In NDUU, I agree that serperior With tera particularly stellar is Very strong/ broken, I Don't think the problem is teracristal. Here the problem is tera blast + contrary. I tester tera fire-blast serperior and It is a lot more faire to the opponent.

 

[Yxzwilliam]

I feel ursaluna is ban worthy has no switch ins, trick room makes it even stronger like come on.
Who feels the same ^

 

[Jônatas Braz]

yo guys think that Garganacl will still be relevante with this change on terastal?

 

[Epicgamergod69]

I feel ursaluna is ban worthy has no switch ins, trick room makes it even stronger like come on.
Who feels the same ^

No just no.
First of all the amount of time in trick room is extremely limited and it's burn slowly kills it and is left quite vulnerable when Tr ends also despite its extreme difficulty being Walled it has quite a lot of offensive counterplay.

 

[Ineros]

bro burn slowly kills it ye but when u have multiple trick room users on a team trick room last all game and the offensive counter play is what? aqua jet? Mach punch? do the calcs the strongest Mach punch user doesn't even kill u lose a mon guarantee and u lose 2 mons guarantee as well.
saying burn chips, it throughout the game sounds like the(shitty intelligence level of the council members we have iq level which is well below 50) like bro you people seem to forget hat is on every trick room if not cress which HEAL ursaluna it's not even funny so be quiet.


DONT GET ME STARTED ON LELE 2 shots heatran after tera psychic smh. At this point bro u ban sneasler over lele which had more mons that could stop it genuinely. Nobody wants to be the guy to say it so I will. You lost so sneasler bc u were shit SIMPLE>
^^^^^
respect to the bros Who go through the daily struggle of what we call council
I'll meet u in the heaven for the Gs

Aw shit here hidin go finna say ur 13 blud u dont know shit

Have a blessed day and i hope grown men dont get to offended by lil ol me

There’s one problem, though; to be on the levels of power you claim it to be (and this is referring to tr btw not the molaluna cores) Ursaluna needs to setup with sd. That means you are getting 3 turns of tr when Ursa comes in and then are taking 1 turn to sd which limits you to 2 turns. The amount of good Pokémon such as heatran tornt and even raging bolt that can use taunt also shut down those other tr setters. Hatt is usually a lead that usually sets up tr and dies/dies next time it comes in. There’s also the point that you can just outlast tr and gain all of the offensive pressure right then and there. Considering everything on a tr team is slow with hazards (usually by Ferro as it almost completely cripples tr) you can overwhelm the setters because they are so passive and the breakers because they are so slow. Sure Luna is a decent mon but it isn’t broken by any means especially on tr.

 

[ssuperiority]

Tryna ban Tera is massive cope cause there's been like two whole suspects abt it and nothing happened. Like can yall pipe down we just now having a finally stable metagame and yall crying about ts again. We should talk about a ogerpon-w sus instead of a problem that doesn't even really exist in the first place. Simply unbanning Tera would open up a huge can of worms and undo a lot of progress that has happened to make the tier more balanced.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

Tryna ban Tera is massive cope cause there's been like two whole suspects abt it and nothing happened. Like can yall pipe down we just now having a finally stable metagame and yall crying about ts again. We should talk about a ogerpon-w sus instead of a problem that doesn't even really exist in the first place. Simply unbanning Tera would open up a huge can of worms and undo a lot of progress that has happened to make the tier more balanced.

Tryna keep Tera free is massive cope cause there's been like two whole discussion threads about it filled with pro-ban statements and nothing happened. Like can yall pipe down we just now having a unstable metagame and yall raising valid concerns about ts again. We shouldn't talk about an ogerpon-w sus instead of a problem that really exists in the first place. Simply banning tera would close a huge can of worms and make the tier a more balanced place.

 

[Jônatas Braz]

Tryna ban Tera is massive cope cause there's been like two whole suspects abt it and nothing happened. Like can yall pipe down we just now having a finally stable metagame and yall crying about ts again. We should talk about a ogerpon-w sus instead of a problem that doesn't even really exist in the first place. Simply unbanning Tera would open up a huge can of worms and undo a lot of progress that has happened to make the tier more balanced.

yeah, i'll miss constantly losing won games cause i didn't guess Kingambit Tera's type or something like that . Im kinda curious to see how this new Tera will shift the meta

Btw, the Kingambit was Tera ghost

 

[ssuperiority]

Tryna keep Tera free is massive cope cause there's been like two whole discussion threads about it filled with pro-ban statements and nothing happened. Like can yall pipe down we just now having a unstable metagame and yall raising valid concerns about ts again. We shouldn't talk about an ogerpon-w sus instead of a problem that really exists in the first place. Simply banning tera would close a huge can of worms and make the tier a more balanced place.

Nothing happened on tera because the community agreed that it should stay in both suspects??? It is what the majority of people thought was right thats quite literally why despite the pro ban threads nothing happened. Also I genuinely have not seen a good pro Tera ban argument in a while on this thread so please state the actual valid criticisms that lots of people seem to be currently bringing up, enough for a 3rd suspect test because it is clearly that much of an important issue that needs to be adressed. Who is raising valid concerns lil bro.

 

[ssuperiority]

yeah, i'll miss constantly losing won games cause i didn't guess Kingambit Tera's type or something like that . Im kinda curious to see how this new Tera will shift the meta

Btw, the Kingambit was Tera ghost

Kingambit is banned now so you don't have to worry

saying burn chips, it throughout the game sounds like the(shitty intelligence level of the council members we have iq level which is well below 50) like bro you people seem to forget hat is on every trick room if not cress which HEAL ursaluna it's not even funny so be quiet.


DONT GET ME STARTED ON LELE 2 shots heatran after tera psychic smh. At this point bro u ban sneasler over lele which had more mons that could stop it genuinely. Nobody wants to be the guy to say it so I will. You lost so sneasler bc u were shit SIMPLE>
^^^^^
respect to the bros Who go through the daily struggle of what we call council
I'll meet u in the heaven for the Gs

Aw shit here hidin go finna say ur 13 blud u dont know shit

Have a blessed day and i hope grown men dont get to offended by lil ol me

This has some like old indescribable facebook grandpa energy

 

[Nashrock]

yeah, i'll miss constantly losing won games cause i didn't guess Kingambit Tera's type or something like that . Im kinda curious to see how this new Tera will shift the meta

Btw, the Kingambit was Tera ghost

oh let me see how tera will shift the meta... how's gambit doing rn? oh they're in ubers cuz we took actions and learned to play with tera

EDIT: to make this not a one-liner, I do not think the new tera type is worth investing even on contrary users. Stella tera blast just doesn't hit strong enough to "neutral hit and ko everything". For example, in serp's case,
+6 200 SpA Serperior Judgment vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Heatran: 102-120 (26.4 - 31%) -- 11.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
if it wants a coverage move, it is for sure more effective to just bring hp fire/ground/rock whatever or even tera blast with the specific type because being able to kill one target is better than not being able to kill anything.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

Nothing happened on tera because the community agreed that it should stay in both suspects??? It is what the majority of people thought was right thats quite literally why despite the pro ban threads nothing happened. Also I genuinely have not seen a good pro Tera ban argument in a while on this thread so please state the actual valid criticisms that lots of people seem to be currently bringing up, enough for a 3rd suspect test because it is clearly that much of an important issue that needs to be adressed. Who is raising valid concerns lil bro.

Nothing happened on tera because the community (including me) agreed that it should go in discussion, but was too lazy to get suspect requirements??? It is what the majority of the people (including me) thought was wrong, but were too lazy to fix it and that is literally why despite the pro ban threads nothing happened. Also I genuinely have not seen a good anti Tera ban argument in a while on any thread so please state the actual valid defenses that lots of people seem to currently bringing up, enough for stopping a 3rd suspect test because it is clearly not that important of an issue that needs to be addressed. Who is raising valid defenses lil bro.

To actually, intellectually answer this post:

Nothing happened on tera because the community agreed that it should stay in both suspects???

No, nothing happened on tera in the first suspect because the community thought that it was too early (evidenced by quite a few DNB voters saying that it was because of the test being too early) and it wasn't banned on the second test because we, as a community, ranted about it in discussion threads (with some of the best players of ND, mind you, joining us in our rants) without voting in the suspect test because we were too lazy and assumed others would vote ban for us. We need to, and can, do better in these suspect tests, but we need to have them in the first place. You seem to misunderstand the key reason why Tera was not banned in the two suspects.

Also I genuinely have not seen a good pro Tera ban argument in a while on this thread so please state the actual valid criticisms that lots of people seem to be currently bringing up, enough for a 3rd suspect test because it is clearly that much of an important issue that needs to be adressed. Who is raising valid concerns lil bro.

Either you're willfully ignoring the discussion threads or haven't read them yet.

First discussion thread (featuring great players like Sputnik) Tera in National Dex: Where do we stand now? | Smogon Forums
Second discussion thread (featuring great players like sealoo, Javi, sasha, hidin, and more campaigning against Tera) Tera...Again | Smogon Forums

These should lay out the points for you. Cheers.