I'm shocked we never got a generic "STAB Beam" of some sort that just matches your primary type and has ~80 BP. We went like 3 gens where Hidden Power was the best STAB some types got and there's still occasional weird mons that are desperate for at least one of their two STABs(not to mention how half the type shifting mons end up with an equivalent of that ANYWAY), but it's a gap left unfilled and feels like a simple QOL fix that they would have done accidentally at some point.
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SPOILERS! Mysteries and Conspiracies of Pokemon
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My guess is before Bug Type moves failed to materialize in some notable way, Bug Moves might have been a way to help the "crutch character" design of early Bugs like Butterfree and Beedrill. Against the as-mentioned Generic Poison "Evil" Pokemon, your Bug types could hit harder while you'e getting other guys caught up (and the dual-SE relation might even result in stuff like Bugs heavily hitting Zubat or Ekans or such, then being KO'd so the next mon takes all the EXP off the weakened opponent), akin to FE Pre-Promotes. They'd fall off when the Rockets got more varied rosters in theory and you had more trained mons with type coverage and better late game stats then (barring Scyther and Pinsir who also come late game as single stages).
One thing this makes me think of is how Erika as the 4th Gym Leader would about coincide with the "last hurrah" for Bugs, and if Poison was resistant to Bug as it is now, they wouldn't beat her Grass Types, one of the other few advantages the type had in Gen 1.
Scyther and Pinsir in gen 1 feel like they were hit pretty hard from a lack of focus on STAB moves. They were thematically tied to Slash and ViceGrip respectively, both Normal moves (Slash gets used elsewhere, I imagine ViceGrip wasn't changed for parity reasons). Since the only two Bug mons that are supposed to stick around when non-Normal attacks become commonplace (quite a while in gen 1) weren't supposed to be using Bug moves as their primary options anyway, I could see how Bug got a low priority when it came to filling out options.
Scyther now has Aerial Ace as a good thematic STAB, but non-Mega Pinsir still feels like it struggles a bit in this regard.
Scyther now has Aerial Ace as a good thematic STAB, but non-Mega Pinsir still feels like it struggles a bit in this regard.
I'd say X-Scissor works thematically for Pinsir, the cross-section of the horns and all
i think snap trap was originally going to belong to carnivine, but they, for whatever reason, didnt give it to it.
Calyrex's loyal steed was not Spectrier or Glastrier. Spectrier and Glastrier are the spirit and frozen body of the Galarian Rapidash it rode.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
Honestly, that'd be extremely cool if if turned out to be canon.
Off that, I really love when the Pokedex notes a biological connection between two unrelated species, like Munna and Drowzee having common ancestry or Skorupi, Sizzlipede, and Venipede all being similar species or Octillery being distantly descended from Omastar. Makes the world feel much more interconnected and ties the different groups of Pokemon together in a way that justifies the different design aesthetics of each new generations' species.
One species I'm really interested in is Magikarp, though. We've had Hisuian forms and Paradox mons, I want to see a prehistoric Magikarp that lives up to the Pokedex's claims about it once being a stronger Pokemon (side note: looking at its Pokedex entries to see if there are any more details about this and god damn they don't pull any punches, do they)
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i actualy started a progect where i was trying to figure out the evolutionary chain of all the pokemon. I stopped because 1: it got too messy, and 2: wiglett was anounced, which threw a wrench into everything. I still made one for the bird pokemon though. something i remember is that scyther, kabutops, dreepys past life, armaldo, and several other similar pokemon are related. also, i think i put dragonite next to some of the bugs, which somehow makes more sense the more you think about it. also, i came to the conclusion that wurmple that evolve into cascoon and wurmple that evolve into silcoon are actually two different species. i might return to this project once i finish a diferent project of mine that is somehow much grander in scale. all ill say is that magcargo puts fear into my heart.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
Would be interested to see the result of this if you ever finish it!
I could see magcargo as having a convergent evolved body plan rather than being with the more traditional molluscs. This has some backing with the egg groups: most molluscs are Water 1 and/or Water 3, while Slugma is only Amorphus. That's at least an argument towards it being closer to other "blob monsters" like Grimer or Sandygast than an organic slug.
i consider egg groups to be adjacent to sexes rather than have something to do with evolution, because this assumption makes more sence. i also consider pokemon breeding mechanics to be non cannon. to take a glimpse into a small portion of my madness, here is a section from the google doc i am making on the biology of pokemon. for context, this is about nidoran
So, Pokemon breeding mechanics are almost certainly non-canon. But surprisingly, egg groups aren't the issue. Egg groups are reminiscent of sexes. That may seem like an issue, given that there are only two sexes (there is a difference between sex and gender), with some mutations being the rare exceptions, however that is only the case with animals. Fungi are wild and have a bunch of sexes, some having more than 15,000. How this works is very complicated, but essentially, all sexes can breed with any sex but their own. That being said, fungi are very simple organisms, and you all know, Pokemon are complex. Not only that, but Pokemon probably evolved very differently to creatures in the real world, and the Pokemon world probably doesn't run by the same rules as the real world. So any number of small changes could make egg groups scientifically possible. A problem arises however, when you take into account the fact that different species of Pokemon can breed with each other. This is, in fact, something that happens in real life. The difference being that in the real world, if a female polar bear and a male grizzly bear mate, their offspring will be a grolar bear, while in the Pokemon world, if a female Beartic and a male Ursaluna mate, their offspring will be a Cubchoo. Even chalking this up as a difference in the laws of the universe doesn't work, as we start to wonder how Sawk reproduce, as outside of the Friend Safari, they are never found in the same place as Ditto, and since all Sawks are male, the only way for a new Sawk to be created is for it to breed with Ditto. This begs the question, how do Pokemon reproduce in the first place? Well, in the wild, animals usually only reproduce with their own species, even if they are able to reproduce with another. Grolar bears are very uncommon, and are only occurring because of global warming. Granted, polar bears and grizzly bears don't come across each other that often in the first place, but let's look at another hybrid: the wholphin. A wolphin is the hybrid of a female common bottlenose dolphin and a male false killer whale. These two species are found in the same locations, and as such, have been documented in the wild, but it is extremely rare, despite the fact that dolphins are… Well, let's just say we have a lot in common with dolphins. My point is, that while different species do reproduce in the wild, they usually prefer to reproduce with their own species. This logic would likely carry over to the world of Pokemon, as they would naturally evolve to look favorable for their own species. That being said, for Pokemon like Sawk, they might have no choice but to mate with different species. However there is another option. Asexual reproduction, or reproduction with only one parent. This essentially creates a clone of the parent. While uncommon, some female animals can reproduce asexually if they fail to find a partner, and some whiptail lizards only reproduce this way. This may be an option for Pokemon, even male ones, as again, the Pokemon universe works by different rules. In any case, this was important to bring up in order to answer the question of whether or not female Nidoran and male Nidoran are the same species. The answer: I think so. Sexual dimorphism is the difference between sexes of the same species, and occurs in both the Pokemon world and the real world. Some might say that they can't be, because they are listed as different species in the pokedex, however Pokemon in the same evolutionary line are considered different species even though that makes no sense. By our definition of species, Pikachu and Raichu are the same species, and the pokedex is either wrong, or has a different definition for species. Therefore, it is not a stretch to say that both Nidorans are the same species.
The example feels a bit weird since acknowledging the breeding mechanics gets to the same conclusion much faster: both nidorans are the same species because nidoran
can produce eggs that have both versions (this also occurs for volbeat/illumise).More broadly, it feels like egg groups are the only major measure of relatedness we get that doesn't rely on physical similarity (which can be pretty shaky at times IRL). It gets messy both because the world wasn't designed for taxonomic research and fantasy elements are going to amplify natural evolution's guiding principle of "if it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid," but I'm not seeing a better alternative.
the thing is, egg groups tell us too much about the evolutionary lineage of pokemon, to the point where any one pokemon is like 4 evolutionary steps from another maximum. if we take egg groups as evidence, we end up with a conspiracy board instead of an evolutionary chartThe example feels a bit weird since acknowledging the breeding mechanics gets to the same conclusion much faster: both nidorans are the same species because nidoran
More broadly, it feels like egg groups are the only major measure of relatedness we get that doesn't rely on physical similarity (which can be pretty shaky at times IRL). It gets messy both because the world wasn't designed for taxonomic research and fantasy elements are going to amplify natural evolution's guiding principle of "if it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid," but I'm not seeing a better alternative.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
My take is that egg groups are often indicative but not a literal measure of relatedness across the board. Cloyster and Gastrodon are canonically related species, but are in totally different egg groups with no overlap. Egg groups mainly exist for gameplay purposes and while Pokemon of similar anatomy and classification are generally grouped together it's largely separate from the in-universe lore which tells us that Munna and Drowzee have a close relation.
Broadly speaking I'm pretty sure it was stated at least once that all Pokemon are the same "species" and that all the various types are subdivisions. There are orders and families and genuses like anything else, but obviously it's possible to draw your own conclusions about which are more closely related than others - for instance Beedrill and Butterfree are obviously much more closely/recently related than Beedrill and, say, Arcanine.
Broadly speaking I'm pretty sure it was stated at least once that all Pokemon are the same "species" and that all the various types are subdivisions. There are orders and families and genuses like anything else, but obviously it's possible to draw your own conclusions about which are more closely related than others - for instance Beedrill and Butterfree are obviously much more closely/recently related than Beedrill and, say, Arcanine.
This has never been said canonically that I know of. AFAIK it's a common fan theory that emerges from the fact that "chain breeding" is possible across egg groups to an extent that we don't observe in IRL animal species divides. It's not an airtight claim for a variety of reasons. Specifically, Pokemon genetic inheritance blatantly does not match how it works in real animals anyway, so the things that make multi-species hybridization problematic don't really apply to their hypothetical taxonomy.
With that said, I personally agree with your first point: Egg Groups are definitely a decent starting point, but objectively we know the evolution tree is more complicated than that.
While we are on the topic of overthinking pokemon, i think i know how psychic powers work in the pokemon universe. here are more excerpts from my doc, about psyduck and kadabra
"Remember when I said I wouldn't explain how psychic powers work? Well I lied. In the Pokemon world, psychic powers appear to be the result of intense thought and/or emotion. My main evidence for the emotion part are the Gardevoir and Hatterene lines. My best guess as to why is that thoughts and emotion must impact the world in some way. This is likely also how Pokemon read minds. It seems that in general, thought based powers are easier to control than emotion based powers. Since the pokedex states that its powers are triggered by headaches and may not be triggered manually, but also that they stimulate brain cells, I am unsure what type of psychic power Psyduck uses. Perhaps a combination of both."
"Kadabra is my best evidence as to my theory about the intense thought affecting the real world. The dex states that its power comes from alpha waves. Alpha waves are given off by the brain, and are what allow people to observe brain activity. The way they do this is by using magnetic fields. This is probably why Kadabra carries a silver spoon, and why its powers affect machinery."
while on the topic of kadabra, here is another excerpt from the kadabra entry
"Now, a big question you probably have is how a boy turned into Kadabra. This stumped me too, but then I realized the answer. It didn't happen. The dex seems to contradict this, as it states it as a fact. However, I believe the boy was never a boy in the first place! The dex states that Abra can make illusions. I believe that the boy was an Abra disguised as a boy by an illusion, and that his transformation into Kadabra was simply him evolving."
now, i reread the abra entry, and i dont think they were reffering to literal illusions. still, i dont think it is out of the relm of possibility for kadabra to be able to create illusions[/spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler]
"Remember when I said I wouldn't explain how psychic powers work? Well I lied. In the Pokemon world, psychic powers appear to be the result of intense thought and/or emotion. My main evidence for the emotion part are the Gardevoir and Hatterene lines. My best guess as to why is that thoughts and emotion must impact the world in some way. This is likely also how Pokemon read minds. It seems that in general, thought based powers are easier to control than emotion based powers. Since the pokedex states that its powers are triggered by headaches and may not be triggered manually, but also that they stimulate brain cells, I am unsure what type of psychic power Psyduck uses. Perhaps a combination of both."
"Kadabra is my best evidence as to my theory about the intense thought affecting the real world. The dex states that its power comes from alpha waves. Alpha waves are given off by the brain, and are what allow people to observe brain activity. The way they do this is by using magnetic fields. This is probably why Kadabra carries a silver spoon, and why its powers affect machinery."
while on the topic of kadabra, here is another excerpt from the kadabra entry
"Now, a big question you probably have is how a boy turned into Kadabra. This stumped me too, but then I realized the answer. It didn't happen. The dex seems to contradict this, as it states it as a fact. However, I believe the boy was never a boy in the first place! The dex states that Abra can make illusions. I believe that the boy was an Abra disguised as a boy by an illusion, and that his transformation into Kadabra was simply him evolving."
now, i reread the abra entry, and i dont think they were reffering to literal illusions. still, i dont think it is out of the relm of possibility for kadabra to be able to create illusions[/spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler][/spoiler]
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
If Mew is the ancestor of all Pokemon, then logically it would have to be true - but it may not have ever been stated canonically, I'm not sure.
Though as the series has gone on the increasing existence of non-organic Pokemon and those specifically stated to be formed from elemental forces and/or manmade objects (Trubbish, Banette, Magearna et al) makes that more questionable. But even then I guess you could argue that whatever spirits or vibes that inhabit them are Pokemon too, just intangible and beyond our understanding.
Sabrina: "Everyone has psychic power! People just don't realize it!"
I think that the emotion aspect gets fuzzy for specifically psychic power and Gardevoir/Hatterene since I associate power over emotion with the Fairy type (since it's mentioned in a large chunk of Fairy move descriptions). The overall mechanism may or may not be similar (there are a lot of Psychic/Fairy mons around after all) but I think there is a distinction that can be drawn. Of course, I also just misread the Kadabra section as talking about Alpha radiation (i.e. a form of radioactive decay) so maybe I shouldn't be trusted.
How does that follow? Animals in general all have shared ancestors; that's how evolution works. It doesn't make them all one single species. E.G., koalas (Phascolarctos cinereus) and red kangaroos (Osphranter rufus) are different species with a common ancestor.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
What I meant was that presumably the descent is far smaller than real-world evolutionary trees, thus they're all more closely related.
Admittedly I may be influenced in this idea by Bulbapedia's history of the Pokemon world page, which speculates that at one point the Mew population was larger and it gave way to other species. What that's based on I don't know and I highly doubt it's canon, but Mew's ancestry is linked in-game to the fact that it can learn all moves. The fact that all Pokemon in existence have collective access to this pool of moves and can breed with numerous other species indicates that the connection is closer than animals are IRL: kangaroos can't breed with frogs and turtles and plesiosaurs, but I can breed a Kangaskhan with Bulbasaur and Squirtle and Lapras.
...New thought: Can you? The daycare folks flat-out admit they have no clue what's going on. Parthenogenesis that requires sexual stimulation but otherwise does not use anything from a second parent is uncommon but not unheard of. And it's possible for there to be obligate parthenogenesis in species with existing males. Which would make egg groups just a case of "which mons are physically compatible and recognize each other as potential partners", which honestly seems to match how they work anyway.
So what that would look like is at some point(probably Mew), Pokemon evolved to reproduce as a result of any 2 partners going at it, but using genetic material only from the mother. This is usually a bad idea, but if we assume the Poke world is high in radiation*, cloning yourself might be a survival method**. And the excessive radiation leads to severe mutation over short periods, resulting in a WIDE variety of physically distinct species that even experts have trouble identifying. Species that don't do that have died out due to excessive incompatible mutations.
Now, this doesn't explain how inheriting IVs/Moves from the father works, but there's justifications you can come up with for that...Wait. Bacterial conjugation, but not for bacteria. If we say Pokemon species have built-in ways to incorporate DNA from outside sources, that explains both how eggs get moves from their male "parent" AND how TMs work(humans figured out the method and reworked it for their own ends).
This hypothesis isn't flawless, not by a long shot, but dammit I think it actually works.
*Total guess, but it seems like radiation gets mentioned a lot in weird misc worldbuilding details they give us
**if this is also happening for humans, it explains the legions of Joys/Swimmers/etc that are physically indistinguishable