Team MPL VII Format Discussion Thread

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Idk if the format you suggested is sarcastic or what but if you read my post I'm absolutely not beating around the bush. I want this to actually contain the best of players we have. Not a feel good tour with the same players as every single other tour we have.
As far as I know I wasn't invited to the vote party so I'm getting this thread to cut to the chase. We don't need research papers when this is just an appeal to lower the slots because the last couple of player picks are crap. Everything else is just some sparkle dust that no one really cares about to sell it harder.

I'm not being sarcastic about a 4slot tour, but I doubt everyone is ready for that level of prestige so:

ss/ss/sm/sm/oras/bw
 
I absolutely support a shift to 6 slots, because I think it's a necessary step forward for the tournament and the entire community at large. Just wanted to chime in on a couple things though.

Firstly, foddering in a multigen BO3 slot. As a manager who did this last year, I just want to explain why we thought it was a good strategy for us. When we first subbed feen into the slot, our BW was struggling. Our 2nd best BW option was Evi, who evidently was our best SM player. Putting her in BW while keeping zuku in bo3 seemed a lot more risky because we liked her chances in SM, a tier she knows really well, a lot more (she also hates bw mono). At that point in our season, keeping zuku in against some of the top competition while also slotting in a mediocre player in BW was definitely not in our favour. Because of this, we opted to let zuku farm some noob in bw (sorry avarice ily) and believed in feens ability to rob someone in bo3, giving us a 1-1 start at worst, ideally. Unfortunately, this strategy is super viable in our team tours and we've seen so many instances of it. Cutting slots down to 6 would make managing resources so much easier and should ideally reduce foddering in MPL because each win is worth more. That said, I'm not sure if we have the playerbase to field a multigen BO3 slot, which is disappointing because it was by far my favorite slot to spectate and prep in. Ideally we keep multigen BO3, but if not, SSBO3 is a pretty natural progression for the best games.

Secondly, I've heard a couple people put an emphasis on entertainment and the fact that 6 slots would make the tour boring. If it's just spectator entertainment, I see no reason why better games wouldn't be more entertaining. If it's team chat activity, I think this is super subjective and just an argument made up for the sake of it. For starters, if just 1 manager plays (which i think should absolutely be a rule) like chait outlined in his post, you start with a minimum of 9 people in a cord vs 10 with 8 slots. Ultimately, I think it's just a question of how well a manager can manage their resources during the draft. If a manager values team activity over all, there should be no reason why they can't get that extra sub or two, or those specific players that really bring your team chat alive. You can't really complain if you end up with a dead cord after drafting an entire bench of tour players that don't do much outside of playing their games.

rabbits post is hella goated

probably repeated some shit chait said cuz bro sweated for 3 days writing that post
 
Most of what needs to be said has been said, so i'll try to keep it relatively new and short.

- Multiple tours to prove your worth
I actually liked this argument. There are a bunch of places to show one's worth. However, let's not forget that WCOP was a test tour that we wanted to include this year, it is not concrete. It really only happened this year because I strongly pushed for it to be included in the schedule. And after that fiasco we just had, I don't think a return is as likely. That being said, you are left with MPL and MWP. One of which is a tour focused on OMs. If 6 slots are to become a thing, I would prefer it being experimented in another tour first.

- The same people playing in each tour
yes, this is pretty much how it works in every tier. There was a point made how other tiers have a tour that highlights their top players, but those are official tours. If we (hopefully) get into an official tour like SCL, we can showcase our very best there to a larger audience.

- Prestige
what gives tours prestige is the players, the runtime, 'entertainment' value, etc. It doesn't only come from best vs best, it comes from the community, they gives it value. Cutting it down a few slots is shafting the community, which we have one of the biggest of. It may increase viewer interest or decrease it, I personally think the latter.

- Entertainment Value
I can tell you first hand all of you who think it'll be more entertaining to watch a few more prominent players vs each other and cut down on total games are talking out of your ass. I guarantee you the number one complaint will be the low amount of games. Let's not beat around the bush, it will be a much more boring tour. I frankly don't care who is playing, an MPL game is entertaining regardless because of the pressure it carries.

- Tiers and Bo3
Foddering in Bo3 is the same thing as foddering in Bo1. Foddering is not exclusive to this format, it happens everywhere. That being said,

SS/SS/SS/SS/SM/ORAS/BW/Bo3 Oldgen

I like the idea of this or something similar. Not a fan of the argument of us not having a large enough player-base to field oldgen slots. That will be an ongoing problem if we don't include it in the first place. You only will get more of these players if you keep those tiers in the tour, otherwise you just have a diminishing pool of players. Also there should not be two Bo3 slots in the tour no matter the amount of slots.

Overall, I get that point of wanting to have more exclusivity to bring about a more competitive tour. I don't know if 6 slots is the best option though, and I am hesitant because of the risks it carries. On a sidenote, azelea made a good point saying why not cut down the number of teams to 6 with 8 slots. Solving both the manager aspect and the quality of games aspect of the tour.
 

Zar

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MPL should stay 8 slots. I'm going to try and take a different approach from the ones that have already been posted already because of the mindset I have regarding the tournament.

I believe the biggest reason for shifting to 6 slots is the increase of better quality games (or decreasing terrible games however you want to look at it) and I agree with them. Changing to 6 slots will get rid of the matches between the lower end players of the pool. But the thing is, I actually like watching those games as well? In a way those games highlight the "Isza vs Attribute" or any other high quality game even more. I genuinely want to watch games between people like juleo and namranan (no offense guys I love you) because the games are genuinely entertaining. You never know what can happen in games like those. Zap and the others have brought up the point about the tournament being boring and I absolutely agree with that. I'm not here to watch the same high quality games over and over again.

To me prestige is a funny word regarding MPL, I'm speaking for myself when I say I don't really care at all about "prestige". MPL and other Mono team tours have always been about fun for me. I get happy when I see random players come out of nowhere in the biggest Mono stage and light up the tour. Shifting the slots to 6 would effectively kill that. The decrease of the number of actual games per week is a big problem as well imo. It already feels like we have to wait an eternity during team tours for the actual games to be played as most people play on weekends exclusively. Watching only 24 games through the span of a week feels so sad.

I'd like to see 6 slots applied to MWP or MWC before MPL to test it out and then go on from there. For me and I assume a lot of other people, MPL is the one everyone comes back for and I'd hate to see the tour being ruined because of an untested and unneeded change.

On the bo3 slot, keep it. It sucks that foddering happens in the slot but to me, the intrigue of the bo3 slot in MPL 6 wasn't that the best players are playing in it, rather the fact that the players are playing each other in different gens of the tier. I don't really see the point in a single gen bo3 like the SS BO3 in MWP. I like watching different players play each other in gens in the older gens of SM/ORAS/BW because we don't really get to watch them duke it out in the older gens as frequently anymore.

On the actual tiers, I liked Zap's idea of 4 SS / SM / ORAS / BW / Old gen BO3
 
If 6 slots are to become a thing, I would prefer it being experimented in another tour first.
I'd like to see 6 slots applied to MWP or MWC before MPL to test it out and then go on from there
This makes absolutely no sense. Why would you cut down slots from tours we value less to be peak competition as a community? THESE are the tours people should be making a name for themselves in. Not MPL.

yes, this is pretty much how it works in every tier. There was a point made how other tiers have a tour that highlights their top players, but those are official tours. If we (hopefully) get into an official tour like SCL, we can showcase our very best there to a larger audience.
Until we are in SCL we do not have a tour to highlight our top players. This used to be it. It isn't anymore. Imo we should fix that. We should not be looking at this with potential SCL in mind. It's not a guarantee now and it's not a guarantee in the future. If you wish to value the 'competitive' aspect of smogon/competitive pokemon we play in the SLIGHTEST, there has to be a certain amount of exclusivity. We do not have that at all.

On a sidenote, azelea made a good point saying why not cut down the number of teams to 6 with 8 slots. Solving both the manager aspect and the quality of games aspect of the tour.
Like Maroon and I mentioned, we saw world cup with 5 weeks. it was pretty damn bad. Let's not do that again. Also, Manager quality cannot be magically improved. At the end they are limited by the availability of players in the pool. A very limited pool.

Foddering in Bo3 is the same thing as foddering in Bo1. Foddering is not exclusive to this format, it happens everywhere.
This is ridiculous and just absurd to suggest. Bo1 is ridiculously simple to fish for a win in in pokemon. Bo3 has the better player winning a much larger majority of the time. It's also less likely you know where the best players are going to be week in week out in Bo1 which makes foddering way harder. The fact that foddering exists and we have talked about it so often in this thread speaks to the volume of change we need.

I like the idea of this or something similar. Not a fan of the argument of us not having a large enough player-base to field oldgen slots. That will be an ongoing problem if we don't include it in the first place. You only will get more of these players if you keep those tiers in the tour, otherwise you just have a diminishing pool of players.
We should not be looking to fix the issue of not having a large enough playerbase for a multi tier set in our best tournament. This issue exists because of lack of representation elsewhere. It shouldn't come down to the tournament we value most to fix that. Where is the fix if it's always the same 6-7 players in those slots with a couple thrown in there to be fodder? I am a huge fan of bo3 multigen, but it simply isn't working for all the reasons Azelea mentioned and more.


Watching only 24 games through the span of a week feels so sad.
On the number of games - It is maybe the biggest issue I see with cutting slots, but let's not kid ourselves, 90% of games happen on the weekend. Many happen simultaneously and you just have people not paying attention to a fair few. Losing out on 8 games a week is not the end of the world, especially when the majority have a reaction of 'what the fuck was that game' lmao but I get that is my very subjective opinion. However these 24 games are not across a span of a week, they're almost always primarily on the weekend. People are going to be entertained regardless. Some value quality, some value quantity, but they will still watch and they will still be entertained.


However, let's not forget that WCOP was a test tour that we wanted to include this year, it is not concrete. It really only happened this year because I strongly pushed for it to be included in the schedule. And after that fiasco we just had, I don't think a return is as likely.
When we implemented this we did it with the idea we would continue mwc. Yes the format was bad and it wasn't well handled but we will improve that. We should continue as expected. I don't think wcop should factor into this but because you bring it up, the idea is to have it again so this really shouldn't be an issue. Regardless, it still doesn't change there are several several other tours for you to prove yourself.



Lastly, if there is bo3, it should contain ss in some capacity imo.
 
I think at the end of the day I agree with Zar and Zap. Didn't even realise how boring this tour would become with the less amount of games every week.

From a spectators perspective, nothing really beats the SS/SS/SS/SS/SM/ORAS/BW/MULTIGENBO3 format, although while quality wise the multigen bo3 makes the prep absolutely fucked, its by far the most enjoyable to watch. I'm against Bo3 SS heavily. Why have 1 slot be bo3, while the content of that slot is literally the same as 4 singular SS. Atleast in multigen, the player actually has to be able to play all of the gens to be able to play.

I also think if we are going to implement heavy changes, we could do a test during MWP slot during the winter (6 slot tour with SS/SS/SS/SM/ORAS/BW, aka the most competitive, fodder proof, format) and then see if this is something we should be doing going forward.
 
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Moosical

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Like Maroon and I mentioned, we saw world cup with 5 weeks. it was pretty damn bad. Let's not do that again. Also, Manager quality cannot be magically improved. At the end they are limited by the availability of players in the pool. A very limited pool.
I have no stakes in this whole discussion, but I want to point out that there are plenty of ways to reduce the team number to 6 without having the tour be only 5 weeks. If manager quality is an issue, then surely reducing the number of managers would increase the quality on average, for the same exact reason you all are claiming that reducing the number of players increases the quality. As zap said, why not address both the manager and player quality issue at the same time?

You could easily do:
5 weeks -> drop the bottom 2 scores -> 3 weeks of 4 remaining teams -> drop the bottom 2 scores -> 1 week playoffs = 9 weeks total (same as every 8 team tour, and the same number of "possible tiebreaker weeks")
 
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Floss

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I believe MPL should stick with the 8 slots format.

Honestly, prestige wasn't a word that I was accustomed to hearing MPL being described as. Do many people view MPL as the best and most competitive tour? Yes, they do. It isn't just because MPL has been around longer and has more history (although that is a part of it). All of the 3 tours serve varying purposes, Mono World Cup as the token region-based tour, MWP as the tour with OMs, and MPL as the most competitive tour due to being auction-based (unlike Mono WCop) and having old gens instead of Mono OM (unlike MWP). Discussing MPL as this 'most prestigious tour' of which high quality HAS to be upheld feels like a facade to push through drastic changes. There is only one positive certainty that can be stated about implementing 6 slots, which is the rise in quality. However, there are other factors determining the overall quality of the tour itself, which make 6 slots a volatile proposition.

This feels like a point that's being brushed aside when discussing the swap to 6 slots, although it should be given more credence. Generally, there will be a lower engagement level for people participating as subs instead of starting. This stands to be more drastic for tour/lower tiers players compared to mono mains, and the 2 slots which are cut from the tour will reduce activity from these players. Generally, experienced monotype mains will already be starting in the 6 slots alignment, and wouldn't be cut out due to the change in slots. Therefore, the ones being affected by this change are usually lower tier players or tour players. While some of the lower tier players are more integrated into our community than general tour players, there would still be a decrease in contribution/participation when they are not starting that isn't shown properly by the decrease of minimum players from 10 to 9. While it is the responsibility of the manager to ensure their team chats are active if it is important to them, managers shouldn't feel pressured to draft subs who serve to provide chat presence at the expense of competitive subs. A sufficient team environment can be naturally achieved through an 8 slots format, while it may be more difficult to foster with a 6 slots format.

Foddering seems to be more of an issue borne out of the Bo3 slot itself rather than player quality, given that the best players are funnelled into this slot where they have to build 3-4 teams for a win that doesn't even have added importance over the others. Also, as Chait pointed out, there is a lack of players who can play 3-4 gens competently, which results in multi-gen Bo3 being a prime slot for a manager to 'fodder' in order to ensure their best player can pick up an easier win elsewhere. Some of these issues are alleviated with CG Bo3, but the best idea is to probably abolish the Bo3 slot by itself. This would also increase the allure and unpredictability of potential marquee matchups in newer gens, due to having multiple SS/SM slots in which these matchups can take place, and increase the difficulty of foddering (which might still occur in ORAS, but BW seems to have sufficient quality to fill out its slots).

Due to the uncertainty about various aspects of the tour being impacted by the drastic change from 8 slots to 6 slots (apart from the quality), there are a lot of assumptions needed to believe that a 6 slots MPL would go swimmingly. Part of the discourse is that we shouldn't be simply content with MPL being acknowledged as the best tour just by virtue of being auction-based and not including OMs. This is made out to be a bigger problem than it actually is, given those other tours serve different purposes. Out of the 3 tours, MWP suffers most from a deficient identity, given that 3 of the Mono OMs (AAA/STAB/LC) don't have any relation to the other two tours and caters to the OM community more than the Mono community.

While I was resistant to the idea earlier, utilising MWP as a test run for the 6 slots format does make some sense. Using Chait's metaphor of equating MPL to the big leagues, drastic rule changes in baseball are usually tested out in the minor leagues before being implemented in the major leagues, such as the introduction of robot umpires and anti-shift rules. Even if these rules would improve the quality of baseball, there are other factors which need to be considered, therefore the testing process is required. MWP can be utilised as a sort of testing grounds for the 6 slot tour. If it does go well, then it can be implemented in MPL next year and MWP would serve as the inclusive 8 slot tour. If it doesn't, MPL would stay 8 slots and MWP would be reconfigured in another way to distinguish between the tours.

Multi-gen/Old gen Bo3 should probably be out of the consideration if there's a high level of concern about foddering/competitiveness. I like the idea of CG Bo3, but ultimately it is hard to fit into an 8 slots format. I think the most competitive format for 8 slots would be 4 SS / 2 SM / 1 ORAS / 1 BW. If 6 slots does end up being implemented for this MPL, I would say that 3 SS / 1 SM / 1 ORAS / 1 BW is the best avenue to pursue.
 

Zar

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This idea is completely Floss 's which he brought up in cord.

Keep the number of teams at 8, decrease the number of actual slots from 8 to 7 with the BO3 slot counting as 2 wins. This might sound a bit radical at first but hear me out. The main issues that people are concerned with right now are:

- Too many lower-end players in the tournament which leads to bad quality games
- The BO3 slot being foddered because it has the same value as every other BO1 slot

This would solve both issues perfectly. Decreasing the number of slots to 7 would be a great middle ground for both 8 slot and 6 slot parties. This decreases the number of lower quality games while keeping the community still engaged in the tournament. Normally, 7 slots or an odd-number of slots in a tournament is a bad idea as it leads to only wins or losses in a week and consequently teams in contention for playoffs would be decided very early on. However this is where the BO3 slot counting for 2 wins comes in. The main issue people had with the BO3 slot is that it gets foddered. The fact that the BO3 slot has the same value as a normal slot almost encourages the lower end teams to put their best player in another slot to pick up a win elsewhere. This would solve that issue while giving the BO3 slot more value than the rest of the slots. Teams would have incentive to put their best player in the slot. A player would be validated for winning 2 games in a BO3 slot and actually getting 2 wins for their team in the slot as well.

Something to note with this would be that the BO3 slot is 2 points or nothing. This means that even if you lose the BO3 2-1, you don't get a win from it to the week score. I believe this would add an interesting aspect in the drafting process as well. Naturally the prices of the best BO3 players would increase dramatically and managers would have a choice of either going all in for a BO3 player or going for a more balanced team with equal emphasis on every slot.

The tiers for this system would be: SS / SS / SS / SM / ORAS / BW / Multi-gen BO3
 
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This idea is completely Floss 's which he brought up in cord.

Keep the number of teams at 8, decrease the number of actual slots from 8 to 7 with the BO3 slot counting as 2 wins. This might sound a bit radical at first but hear me out. The main issues that people are concerned with right now are:

- Too many lower-end players in the tournament which leads to bad quality games
- The BO3 slot being foddered because it has the same value as every other BO1 slot

This would solve both issues perfectly. Decreasing the number of slots to 7 would be a great middle ground for both 8 slot and 6 slot parties. This decreases the number of lower quality games while keeping the community still engaged in the tournament. Normally, 7 slots or an odd-number of slots in a tournament is a bad idea as it leads to only wins or losses in a week and consequently teams in contention for playoffs would be decided very early on. However this is where the BO3 slot counting for 2 wins comes in. The main issue people had with the BO3 slot is that it gets foddered. The fact that the BO3 slot has the same value as a normal slot almost encourages the lower end teams to put their best player in another slot to pick up a win elsewhere. This would solve that issue while giving the BO3 slot more value than the rest of the slots. Teams would have incentive to put their best player in the slot. A player would be validated for winning 2 games in a BO3 slot and actually getting 2 wins for their team in the slot as well.

Something to note with this would be that the BO3 slot is 2 points or nothing. This means that even if you lose the BO3 2-1, you don't get a win from it to the week score. I believe this would add an interesting aspect in the drafting process as well. Naturally the prices of the best BO3 players would increase dramatically and managers would have a choice of either going all in for a BO3 player or going for a more balanced team with equal emphasis on every slot.

The tiers for this system would be: SS / SS / SS / SM / ORAS / BW / Multi-gen BO3

This idea is so dumb.

I love it.

Please do it.
 

Kev

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I procrastinated this for a long time, so there's a lot to cover now and plenty of people have already discussed some of my main points. I'll preface this post by highlighting that I support 8 slots. When 6 slots was originally suggested, I thought it was as a joke until I saw it being actually brought up in a thread. My initial knee-jerk reaction was to be appalled that it was even suggested, but similar to what others said I have warmed up to it slightly after going through Chaitanya's points. Nonetheless, I believe the trade-off of improved quality is not worth the consequences it brings to the community. It goes back to the quote from Eien that Chait put at the start of his initial post. There is a decision on what is more valuable for the tournament, competitiveness or community. For a tournament that doesn't have "stakes" (money, trophy, etc...), and the biggest event in the tier, I believe community is more essential to secure than competitiveness unless the latter is THAT terrible. While I strongly agree with Chait that quality needs to be improved, we shouldn't be seeing nonsense like "yes the summoner worked" or "Maskun Magic" to justify games in a tournament that exemplifies the pinnacle of competition in our tier. We should be having not just good players who actually know what they're are doing, but also ones with integrity and a sense of sportsmanship. While there are improvements to be made, I don't think it justifies an immediate change despite being tempted and intrigued by the idea. Until we can guarantee that the community continues to prosper, we should not be sacrificing it for a potentially marginal upgrade in quality.

I also would like to applaud everyone for actually having a pretty good discussion (bar some nonsense posts / suggestions), and especially to Chait for swaying me slightly towards his side. If you know me, you know that arguing is basically a passion for me and I love breaking down stuff in debates. However, I have to be honest that there was a lot that he said in the post that I can't refute and that I can totally agree with. I wouldn't be entirely opposed to 6 slots, but I have a preference for 8 slots. Some of my arguments do relate to that debate, but I'd like to focus on other important aspects too.

While high quality games is most definitely a defining factor for prestige, I don't think it is that pressing of a matter in tournaments of this nature. As Zap and Floss pointed out, prestige is a byproduct of history, the tiers in the tournament and the community's opinion. Monotype team tournaments, and any tournament on this site that doesn't give a trophy, are not spectator sports. The people that are following the tournament and watching almost every game are by and large the same people competing in it. By removing a decent part of the community, we risk lowering the status of the tournament and declining the grandeur of our biggest event.

I won't disagree that people prefer seeing the best players face each other, but it'd be disingenuous to claim that it is the main draw of these tournaments. We might not have a trophy tournament to showcase the best of the best, but Monotype has been part of other Smogon wide team tournaments like LTPL and Smogon Exhibition. In theory, the Monotype games in those tournaments would be the clash of the top players in the community akin to what SCL would be. Admittedly, that is not exactly what happened with some managers picking the wrong people but nonetheless there was mostly players that would be starting in a 6 slot MPL. However, how many people in the community can genuinely say they followed the tournament or watched the games. Those matches didn't even get linked in the Monotype discord because frankly no one really cared besides those participating in the tournament. It doesn't matter if the games are supposedly gonna be good, when there isn't a feeling of being involved or there being bigger stakes. The same goes for our individual tournaments; how many people can say they remember the top 4 of the last seasonal or monotype generations? Even with the circuit playoffs, which actually has some stakes to it and is the only tournament for our tier that "gives something".

I agree with the point that these tournaments do lack top tier player matchups; not many are buying front row tickets to a Fylkir Pudin vs smub finals. However, I believe fixing how much people care about those tournaments is a lot more complicated than making MPL harder to get into. The way to make individual tournaments more competitive is to increase how many top players are participating, and how invested they are. The same players that would improve the quality are the same ones not getting left out from MPL with 6 slots anyways. That leaves it to new players being the ones who are trying the hardest in there. Their games still won't get as much attention and will still end u getting discredited with "ok but it's seasonal" or "they didn't play anyone special whatever". To be fair, those consequences can probably be mitigated by managers actually fairly looking at people but it doesn't change the fact that people are mostly always going with the safest choice. That choice being the people that are always in the tour (even if they don't deserve it), people who they know quite well from the community or people that are competent in other tiers.

As for the insinuation that WCOP and MWP are identical in player base and game quality to MPL, and that it shouldn't be the case, to both be incorrect. First of all, WCOP had multiple players that wouldn't be in MPL due to many regions have very limited options. The quality was worse than MPL for that reason. As for MWP, it attracts OM players. Also, the quality between MPL being "comparable" to MWP shouldn't be considered a negative. MWP was not created with the intention of being a lesser MPL, or being a breeding ground for MPL talent, instead its intention is to be the OM equivalent of the tournament. Speaking of the breeding ground aspect, I disagree with MWP even serving as one. With it having a similar amount of SS slots as MPL, there isn't really room for new players to make a name on the scene because the pool will be similar. The new players are also less likely to be subs or at least to sub in to SS or contribute towards it because their mostly geared towards OM support. This limits the ability of new players to actually break out on the scene through MWP.

Basically, I do not think the points that claim there are other tournaments to make a name are completely true. There is a risk that we become even more stuck with the same people and make it harder for new players to break through. They will either just not find opportunities, be discredited or simply be left out for tournament players / other tier players who consider the tier a novelty. Neither would the individual tournaments won't be considered much more valuable. Ultimately, I agree that the competitive bar of the tournaments needs to be risen but I think a major change like this could potentially have worse effects on the community by pushing away people that genuinely care about tier. If they believe they won't ever get a chance to break into the scene, they might not invest themselves and we lose out on future investment.


I agree with Azelea on the fact that, if the quality of the players is a genuine problem that is significant enough to require a change, then this method is the appropriate way to tackle it. Reducing it to 6 slots only tackles the weaker player base in SS because that is the only slot being touched, and maybe SM too. Arguably, you could also say other tiers could be improved if Bo3 is one of the slots being dropped. Nonetheless, the declining old gen player bases are a large problem and so is manager quality. Cutting the amount of teams both reduces the same amount of starters while spreading out the effects of quality control and improving the manager pool. For example, last MPL 21 different people played ORAS which is a ridiculous amount for a tier with 8 slots. That is almost 3x the amount of players, with only 1 person being a consistent starter for 7 weeks and 2 for 6 weeks. The fact that people are switched around so much in this slot shows that there aren't enough standout players for the tier. If we want to tackle player quality, we should be looking at this instead of reducing the player base for our most important metagame. BW had a more consistent list of starters, with 6 starting every week but that is just another indication that 6 could be better than 8 for older generations. Moreover, I've heard some of the BW usuals aren't planning on returning but that's more hypothetical.

I understand the concern of less weeks, but I find torkool's suggestion really interesting. I get that there is a concern of people losing motivation quickly and giving away crucial weeks because they have no hopes anymore. However, I don't think that kind of attitude should be justified and instead punished. People join these tournaments to play them and a "I don't wanna play because the game doesn't matter for my team" attitude is absolutely terrible and should not be tolerated. It is up to managers to draft players that are motivated and willing to play regardless of the situation they are in. Last MPL, my team finished 8th and we were guaranteed out before the last week of the tournament. Despite that, I had 8 starting slots ready and motivated to get our first week win of the tournament and end the tournament on a high note. Sure, we didn't invest much time to prep or develop new teams, but we still played every game and brought competent teams with the intention to win. This kind of attitude is what every team should have, and if people are giving up because they are out that is the fault of the competitors and/or the managers and not that of the system.

My talk about old generations brings me to the Bo3 discussion. This has been brought up before but basically there just isn't enough top players well versed in all past gens to merit an old gen Bo3 personally. The best players in the community can definitely all play every generation, but that doesn't mean they are exceptionally good in it. Most of the current top players are more familiar with SS and SM, and hardly play ORAS and BW. This is one of the reasons that causes foddering because why would I risk my best player vs someone who has a stronger advantage in older generations when I can have them secure a win somewhere else. Besides that reason, another reason to not remove SS from Bo3 is that the best players in our tier should be playing our core metagame; that is how development happens. Nonetheless, I still Bo3 is a really fun slot if done right and not foddered so I'd still like to see it. SS Bo3 was pretty fun in MWP imo, and it has great potential to be an excellent slot. SM Bo3 from MPL 3 was really great, we got to see the best players duke it out and it was always so exciting to see what people would bring.


I don't think this is being taken seriously, but nonetheless I'll give my thoughts. I think it could be very interesting and potentially make Bo3 games more exciting. However, there are grave consequences and problems that could derive from it. First of all, people already spend astronomical amounts on their Bo3 slot / star player. In this scenario, that player contributes 2 wins a week which is a huge amount so some managers might go even higher on these players. While this is a budgetary issue, its also an problem when it comes to the burden it represents from that player. Most of these top picks are generally the ones tasked with leading the team in terms of preparation. Those people would now have a great burden in terms of living up to a high price, more pressure in building and even more stress regarding their own game. I think this system could make the tournament more miserable for Bo3 players. Another consequence is the advantage of manager buys becomes even greater. Imagine being able to get a player like Chait for 25k, while proving 2 wins a week. Meanwhile, another team is buying 1 True Lycan for 50k to do the same thing. In the current system, buying a manager and a retain forces you to make compromises in other places, however with one of those buys being worth 2 games eliminates that; the imbalance of teams will only get much greater this way.


If you want to play but don't want to pay a high price, sign up as a player.
This is so easy to say but unrealistic. The matter of the fact is our community does not have quality non playing managers. Just think about past signups and the only one who fits the bill is Ticken. As mentioned in a previous section, this isn't a tournament with huge stakes nor is it a spectator sport, so it is difficult to find competent people that are willing to purely manage. Also, those that wish to manage aren't necessarily the top players either. They are viable players who should be in the tournament, but they aren't at the same level as some of the other top tier managers. If they buy themselves for that top price, they might handicap their team which is undesirable. However, if they do not buy themselves it could be a disservice to the player pool and go completely against your whole point of improving the quality.

We want good managers and we want the best players in the community playing. If you wanna prevent managers from playing, you are only getting one or the other. If you wanna set a high price for every manager, you are again not getting both. If anything that ruins the balance between teams even more. Wanka mentioned the top teams always being the same, but it isn't mainly about exceptional drafting or anything, but the Krows and Gengars have an excellent advantage with their manager buys. If we set the same price for every team, it only furthers the gap between them and the ones with weaker manager pairs who still accept the responsibility to play. They normally compensate for their lack with their extra money but in this scenario they don't have that security. I absolutely oppose the fact that all managers should have the same price or that they should only be allowed to get one manager. You are doing a disservice to the quality of the tournament with that kind of system. The only logical system where only 1 manager is allowed to play would be similar to how NU does it where assmans are optional. However, I am not a fan of 1 manager teams either.

As for retains, I personally think the 2 retains ended up not being that problematic as the Houndooms failed to make playoffs. It is hard to judge for the Gengars as they lost Feitan early on. Nonetheless, I do see it as something that could be problematic in the long run so it's understandable if we reduce it to a 1 maximum. In terms of the boosting the retain price by an addition +3k for every time a retain happens. I think it is a reasonable enough system, however if it is being implemented then it should be taken account from the start of retains and not just last year. When it comes to the removal of retains in a 6 slot tournament, I disagree. Managers who build their teams with the prospect of retaining someone next year shouldn't be punished from a new system. The tournament worked fine with manager buys and 2 retains last time as I said in the first line, so hypothetically 2 managers buy and a retain shouldn't be a major problem.

Essentially, putting all managers at the same price or limiting the amount of managers that can be bought will either ruin our already limited pool of manager options or further hurt a player pool whose questionable quality resulted in discussion on changing the whole format. We do not have the community to support non-playing managers, and we cannot expect playing managers to drag along a mediocre non-playing option as an assman in order to respect the 1 buy only rule. It's easy to say "just buy yourself" when you are a manager whose set price would be practically half your draft one, but for those whose manager price could possibly be double or even more their draft price, its an agonizing decision. If we want the best quality tour, we shouldn't be imposing these limitations.


Our community is constantly growing and I personally believe shutting them out from the most special event of said community has great consequences in the future. We have a very "close" community in terms of people genuinely watch the tour, discuss the games and care about the tier. A big number of people in our tournaments are the same people who are gonna do suspects, discuss what is broken and provide feedback in surveys. I might not be completely accurate here since I don't follow them closely, but lower tier PLs are extremely saturated with tournament players and some of them struggled when they tried surveys or had complete flops as suspects. I can't help but think these kind of situations occur because the community isn't being fostered into the competitive environment and many of those actually involved in it don't actually care about the wellbeing of the tier. With the recent SCL discussion, it can strongly be assumed that we are attracting a lot more attention from outside and there are bound to be names from other tiers signing up. I worry that lowering slots could push out the people to who monotype is important and contribute to it. I fully agree that MPL should be a high quality tournament within our community. However, the key part of that sentence is not high quality, but our community. This should be a tournament to showcase the best we have, it should be something for people who care about the community. Don't get me wrong, I love seeing people from other communities sign up and play, its always interesting to see good players from other places pick up the tier and maybe even stick around. My own MPL team last year looked more like an RUPL one than an MPL one so I can't fault anyone for relying on people that aren't traditionally monotype players. But at the end of the day, I wanna look at the people drafted and be able to genuinely say this is definitely an MPL team. I'm being extremely repetitive but I want to see people who are invested in the tier, and not just people who only play it in tournaments nor those who signup because its "fun" but don't have a shred of respect or acknowledgement for the tier.


Not too picky here, but here are my top ideas in no particular order:

8 slots:
SS/SS/SS/SS/SM/SM/ORAS/BW
SS/SS/SS/SM/SM/ORAS/BW/Multigen Bo3 (all 4 gens or stour gens)
SS Bo3 would probably be too much to replace Multigen Bo3 in a 8 slot tournament

6 slots:
SS/SS/SS/SM/ORAS/BW
SS/SS/SS Bo3/SM/ORAS/BW


In conclusion, I think 8 slots is the best thing for the community. The potential consequences of removing those who genuinely care for the tier could be pretty devastating for the future. I do agree that some of these consequences could be slightly exaggerated and might not actually be that severe in a 6 slot tour. However, my issue with it is that I don't think the benefit of a better team is worth the risk of those negative impacts. Last MPL had to deal with a fresh SS DLC 1 metagame and we are gaining more attention, so I think its worth a shot to keep the tour at 8 slots and see what happens. Similar to what Floss suggested, I think it would be better to test out the alternative systems in other tournament, whether it be 6 slots or 6 teams. I personally prefer we just remove WCOP/MWC (uncompetitive in nature, and just a very boring tour for most) and have an alternative that could be used as a testing ground. I don't think we should be using our "main" community event as a testing ground for a pretty drastic change. I do wanna focus on the fact that I do find those different formats interesting and worth exploring because I 100% agree that the quality needs to be better and that people should earn their right into participating. I feel like some of my arguments might not reflect that since I do focus on inclusivity, but I do not believe inclusivity necessarily implies lack of quality. If 6 slots or some other alternative was implemented this MPL, I wouldn't be that opposed honestly but I stand by the fact I don't think now is the time. This format deserves at least another shot to prove itself.

Whatever decision is taken, I don't think I'd be too disappointed and I'm happy we had a good, serious and mature discussion thread for the most part. It's great to see the level of involvement when it comes to a decision like this. As for when this stuff is going to be announced, I urge the forum mods to come to a decision before manager signups are posted or at least be announced early on in them to give people time to adjust. I don't only mean the format, but also the rules on manager pricing, manager buys, retains, etc... These factors are important for prospective signups and not having that stuff clear could make things messy.

Sorry if anything is hard to read or doesn't make sense, this ended up being a lot longer than planned (as usual) and even I cba reading myself twice
 

Ticken

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Thanks to everyone who contributed to this discussion. I'll echo Kevin in saying I'm happy to see that this thread was taken seriously and people were open minded to the new ideas that were brought up. The Manager Signups thread will be posted by Perish Song later tonight, no exact time, that details the plan that the Forum Mods and Hosts have agreed to after discussing ideas and reading through each post.

I'll be locking the thread now and we'll plan to unstick the thread once the Manager Signups thread goes live.
 
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