The thing is, we have the luxury of choosing the one that's the least powerful here. That luxury wasn't present then. Gallade, Medicham and Metagross. We can pick the one we want and toss the other two, or even just ban one.
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Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]
- Thread starter ryan
- Start date
- Status
DoW
formally Death on Wings
I... don't understand what you're saying TBH. Currently we're looking at Mega Medi and Mega Gallade, both of which from what I can see are most certainly broken, and therefore we should ban them. There are plenty of other good psychic pokes that mean banning them wouldn't destroy psychic as a whole, therefore that's not an argument against the ban. In fact, I'd argue that the fact they're all available on psychic teams is somewhat irrelevant, as what we're looking at is how broken they are and not their effects on the type, given that the type will be fine without them. Mega Metagross is not being looked at yet, but may be banned in due time. Mega Gallade and Mega Medicham are broken. Let's ban them.
DoW basically refuted in this in the above post. If it is broken we should ban it, not compromise because the effect it may have on it's corresponding type(s).
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
Being discussed for a ban: Mega Char X (most people think no), Mega Sableye (most people think Dark type ban), Kyu-W (kinda split, leaning towards ban), Skymin (kinda split, leaning towards ban, hax master Anttya thinks it's too haxy o3o), Mega Medicham and Mega Gallade (most people think type ban for psychic suspect for fighting for both), Greninja (pretty new), Mega Metagross (discuss next month)
Zekrom was discussed for an unban, but not many people thought it would be helpful to the metagame, as it didn't help Electric with what it struggles with, and made some matchups more lopsided
Sorry if I got anything wrong, I think that's where we stand right now o3o
As far as "not helping electric" I'd disagree. Still, Zekrom unban lol.
Medicham and Gallade both could warrant bans. Kyurem-W isn't competitive, Mega-Sableye should go from dark, Mega-Zard X could go from flying with no one noticing except Arifeen, and Shaymin-Sky is... idk meh.
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
Rof, this sums up my point of view in one sentence lol
Yeah, it would help Electric, but it would make it ridiculously easy to destroy some types (like poison) and allow everyone and their dog to use electric effectively. Basically, click a STAB and watch stuff die, not named Steelix/Excadrill/Magnezone/a few other bulky Pokemon Electric struggles with. It still doesn't help Electric beat Hippowdon, Porygon2, Landorus-Therian, Mega Sableye, Ferrothorn, and Mega Venusaur. It can sweep many types with little help from teammates and can take giant chunks out of most Pokemon not mentioned above. It is a huge threat that can quite simply rip through a majority of the metagame. DoW put it best: We must not unban more ubers in this metagame.
I pretty much agree with the rest of your post, but I don't think Char X needs to be banned. It can be crippled or revenge killed by most types, hates rocks so much, and if you let it set up a lot, then that's your problem.
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Not to mention, this entire thread going a bit off track.
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
Lol true, I'm partially to blame for that I guess, cuz of Mega Swampert :P
I realize that Charizard X can be stopped but it places a HUGE restriction on teambuilding and the metagame. First this thing is not easy to revenge kill for most types. You need a powerful scarfer and even then Char X can be switched out. 25% dmg from SR isn't very much do dent Zard and his bulkiness. You never know what set it is running and different ones have different checks. Most types struggle with this monster and it severely limits teambuilding. Charizards bulkiness and sweeping potential make him an incredible threat to any team. In my opinion Char X has the same devastating effect as Shaymin-S on the metagame except it is commonly used on a type (flying) that is already very strong.
Well Zekrom has a lot of viable sets.
-Choice Band (Bolt Strike, Outrage, Stone Edge, VOlt Switch)
-CHoice Scarf (bolt strike, outrage, earth power, volt switch)
-mixed life orb or physically defensive leftovers(roost/earthpower/bolt strike/dragon claw)
Erm, Band Set is breaking Porygon2, Hippowdown, Mega-Sableye, mega-venusaur.
252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Zekrom Outrage vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 226-267 (62 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
52+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Zekrom Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 229-271 (54.5 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 240-283 (78.9 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 201-237 (53.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It can't be paralyzed and one of the few things electric teams DO have at their disposal is heal bell support, so burns can be circumvented.
I agree.
If only because Banded Zekrom with Sticky Web support sounds absolutely monstrous ;~;
I don't think Charizard-X NEEDS a band. I think the meta would benefit from it, however.
Ice sucked before Kyu-W, and Ice still sucks WITH Kyu-W. The only thing he does is give you a fighting chance against steel, but he dies to a couple of bullet punches so it ain't all that great.
He does nothing for the types that Ice already beat. A well played Cloyster can easily auto win vs flying and dragon, sometimes even fron turn 1. Electric gets rekt by Kyurem - B who only hits slightly less hard specially, and there's Mamoswine too. Fighting still dominates ice unless you're crazy clever. Rock has mega princess but you can beat her with certain scarfers.
All in all keep Kyurem White. Ice isn't gonna be top tier anytime soon, and you've all adapted to him pretty well.
Skymin can gtfo though.
He does nothing for the types that Ice already beat. A well played Cloyster can easily auto win vs flying and dragon, sometimes even fron turn 1. Electric gets rekt by Kyurem - B who only hits slightly less hard specially, and there's Mamoswine too. Fighting still dominates ice unless you're crazy clever. Rock has mega princess but you can beat her with certain scarfers.
All in all keep Kyurem White. Ice isn't gonna be top tier anytime soon, and you've all adapted to him pretty well.
Skymin can gtfo though.
DoW
formally Death on Wings
Ice may still suck with or without Kyurem-W, but that doesn't mean they should be able to keep it. Your post massively underestimates its usefulness.
For example, against dragon. There is no way cloyster is sweeping from turn 1, given that most dragon teams are extremely offensive and have fast scarves. Chances are, first turn they'll break its sash as it shell smashes, then it'll KO whatever poke that was, then dragonite will espeed or outspeed with scarf latios (which lives a +2 ice shard) and KO. Sure, cloyster can deal some very significant damage and keep the dragon player playing somewhat conservatively to make sure they can still beat this monster, but it's not going to straight-up sweep from turn 1. Kyurem-W, especially scarved, gives Ice a whole load of extra hitting power, and while it doesn't straight-up win either it can prove immensely useful to be able to revenge kill Dragonite through multiscale while at the same time threatening absolutely everything else on the team with ice beam. Kyu-B is also useful here, sure, but against something like goodra might be forced to outrage which would not only make it extremely revenge kill-able but also potentially give mega altaria free setup.
Ok, now let's talk about Flying. I specialise in flying, as I have done since gen 5. You say "A well played Cloyster can easily auto win vs. flying and dragon". lol. Even assuming it runs the rare hydro pump, it can't OHKO skarmory at +2 and gets phased. Add to this the fact that Skarmory is very good at its job and can very often get SR down, allowing Cloyster's sash to be broken. Cloyster may be strong against Flying, it's true, however a well-played flying team will always be able to beat it, and generally will be able to KO it before it can even shell smash. Next, we look at Kyu-B. Flying once again doesn't like this monster very much. If we assume the standard scarf set that most ice teams are inevitably forced to run due to lack of team support, we'll see that it has a 3.1% chance to 2HKO skarm, whether using fusion bolt or ice beam. Now, technically that means it's not a counter, that's true. But given the standard scarf set does, in fact, run a choice scarf, this gives plenty of options for a pokemon like Landorus (if bolt strike) to come in, set stealth rock, do whatever. Meanwhile Togekiss will happily tank ice beams from most Kyu-B sets that are run. I'm not saying it's easy for flying to deal with this monster, don't get me wrong. It's not only got BoltBeam coverage, which flying struggles enough with already, but it's a mixed boltbeam coverage where neither the physical nor the special side can be walled at all easily. But flying can just about handle it, if played extremely well and doesn't get particularly unlucky.
Now, Kyu-W steps into the mix. It 2HKOs literally everything. There is no flying pokemon that can counter it. There is no flying pokemon that can check it. On my team, I had to add a specialised pokemon just to be able to revenge kill it. And if you're going to suggest running Articuno is a decent way of dealing with it, there's a word for that: Overcentralisation. (And let's not even mention Stealth Rock). Look, there is simply no way a good flying player will beat a good ice player, even if this ice player is worse than the flying player. This thing turns a winnable, if difficult, matchup into a downright impossible one.
Let's look at this.
There is no adapting to Kyurem-W. You know what I've done? I've stopped even bothering to bring a revenge killer. I see it in 2% of my games, and I simply mark those games down as losses. That's how I adapted to the threat. I could bring Articuno, and severely limit my team's ability in 98% of games just to stand perhaps a 50% chance of winning the 2% of games in which it appears. I could bring a revenge killer and weaken my team somewhat in 98% of games, only to have a 10% of winning those 2% of games. Or I could simply ignore it. And when you simply accept losing any game in which this pokemon turns up, because tactically that's your best option, you know it's broken. If it comes in, and zard x isn't already at +1, then I've got to sacrifice perhaps 2, perhaps 3 pokemon to stand a chance of KOing it.
This pokemon is the definition of broken. It destroys not only my type, but perhaps 5 others as well. Perhaps more. But this pokemon does not "do nothing". The fact that ice isn't top-tier is irrelevant. Moreso, as you've pointed out yourself its existence doesn't change how usable ice is. As I've said in previous posts, this pokemon does little to help against its weaknesses (Ice still loses 83% of all games to steel! 83%!) and yet it utterly destroys other types. Look at poison, look at grass, look at electric. Once the current suspects are dealt with, let's ban this thing.
DoW out.
Do we have January stats ?
If we want to be honest about the "health of the tier" then all the megas and soft ubers and their really skewed percent battles are kinda irrelevant to flying still defining the tier. Any team you want to make HAS to have checks to "generic flying" on top of its innate weakness (vis a vis fighting for dark) and the sheer scope of that order is simply overbearing for both weak types AND the other pokemon that would define an ordinary metagame.
Basically there is a force of nature screening half of the available 18 types from ever laddering - pleasantly- and still requiring full concentration and intelligent play to beat with top tiers teams with multiple dedicated checks. And that's just a safe build. It has less common members like articuno, charizard-Y (specifically eq variant), and then things from thunderous to gyarados. So if you were laddering and saw a predomination of water or steel for the day, you would have an option to outright body them without them having any real checks to your onslaught besides horribly telegraphed scarf mons
that the flying user could play around. The option to be on par with the "rest of " the most diverse types and still body the bottom feeders is a warning light without being able to also make any one (or even 2) of the three most common neutral games horribly lopsided in exchange for a tiny bit of utility loss.
And as pointed out, charx is a kind of luxury put on top of all that. It's hardly broken, and wouldn't prevent flying from doing what it does except perhaps against the things its geared for -one off pokemon carrying ice beam and electric types that it can break-
Both roles that can be done by others and often even shared work with them on the same team. Again, removing it would have a net effect of doing nothing. Now for all that flying IS diverse, you still see a couple pokemon peaking even their usage. and those are zapdos and skarmory. One of these we've known how to beat it for 4 generations. The other on pushes flying over the edge from the background. It's a matter of having him tank what your specific electric/ice counter does on top of them without losing his ability to wall and throw pressure around in his own job. Charizard is a very good pokemon, and more relatable to other bans in being the mon that is out and killing going on sweeps or taking his KOs and going home, but the electric bird is a kind of omnipresent backup not only for him, but other mega'd flying teams, and effectively works as a centerpiece to build a laddering team around.
So while it hurts me as a 4th gen player, I would like to ask you to consider a flying without zapdos. A number of INTENDED checks now actually work. A couple of unavoidable neutral attackers get more meaningful chip damage on the flying attacker. Other mons step up to fill the void, and pokemon like lando and charizard become worth having checks when you teambuild. But not flying as a whole anymore.
There's kind of a background feeling in monotype that support is less game breaking than wall breaking potenal and sweepers, (Look at deoxys!) but it most certainly is when you can have all of that other stuff as a given. Questions of is it broken aren't looking at intelligent play and options this kind of thing creates and takes away
.
Pokemon that polarize a few match ups that would otherwise be even, or in grass/ice/fairy cases would be in the other guys favor have been a problem, but we're lying if we ever claim that they are a bigger problem (3-6 matchups) than flying (16 matchups) has been, with the only two exceptions being mence and aegislash steel.
So I recommend starting at the tail end of 785 and then doing a search query for posts on zapdos... you'll see the back and forth discussion on this from the beginning and how it morphed into the current charx talk.
Also banning stuff like gallade and mega slowbro is good work and should be continued. But I want something more out of monotype. I want a place that doesn't punish me for playing potential opponets so hardly that I can't make a team able to handle itself against my fellow trainers. And we can't always let people grab their best options if we want a metagame.
Basically there is a force of nature screening half of the available 18 types from ever laddering - pleasantly- and still requiring full concentration and intelligent play to beat with top tiers teams with multiple dedicated checks. And that's just a safe build. It has less common members like articuno, charizard-Y (specifically eq variant), and then things from thunderous to gyarados. So if you were laddering and saw a predomination of water or steel for the day, you would have an option to outright body them without them having any real checks to your onslaught besides horribly telegraphed scarf mons
And as pointed out, charx is a kind of luxury put on top of all that. It's hardly broken, and wouldn't prevent flying from doing what it does except perhaps against the things its geared for -one off pokemon carrying ice beam and electric types that it can break-
Both roles that can be done by others and often even shared work with them on the same team. Again, removing it would have a net effect of doing nothing. Now for all that flying IS diverse, you still see a couple pokemon peaking even their usage. and those are zapdos and skarmory. One of these we've known how to beat it for 4 generations. The other on pushes flying over the edge from the background. It's a matter of having him tank what your specific electric/ice counter does on top of them without losing his ability to wall and throw pressure around in his own job. Charizard is a very good pokemon, and more relatable to other bans in being the mon that is out and killing going on sweeps or taking his KOs and going home, but the electric bird is a kind of omnipresent backup not only for him, but other mega'd flying teams, and effectively works as a centerpiece to build a laddering team around.
So while it hurts me as a 4th gen player, I would like to ask you to consider a flying without zapdos. A number of INTENDED checks now actually work. A couple of unavoidable neutral attackers get more meaningful chip damage on the flying attacker. Other mons step up to fill the void, and pokemon like lando and charizard become worth having checks when you teambuild. But not flying as a whole anymore.
There's kind of a background feeling in monotype that support is less game breaking than wall breaking potenal and sweepers, (Look at deoxys!) but it most certainly is when you can have all of that other stuff as a given. Questions of is it broken aren't looking at intelligent play and options this kind of thing creates and takes away
Pokemon that polarize a few match ups that would otherwise be even, or in grass/ice/fairy cases would be in the other guys favor have been a problem, but we're lying if we ever claim that they are a bigger problem (3-6 matchups) than flying (16 matchups) has been, with the only two exceptions being mence and aegislash steel.
So I recommend starting at the tail end of 785 and then doing a search query for posts on zapdos... you'll see the back and forth discussion on this from the beginning and how it morphed into the current charx talk.
Also banning stuff like gallade and mega slowbro is good work and should be continued. But I want something more out of monotype. I want a place that doesn't punish me for playing potential opponets so hardly that I can't make a team able to handle itself against my fellow trainers. And we can't always let people grab their best options if we want a metagame.
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DoW
formally Death on Wings
The january stats will not be out for perhaps a week, the latest stats will always be here however: http://www.smogon.com/stats/2014-12/monotype/ (Just change the date in the URL for more up-to-date stats, or go up a folder to find things).
I say "A well played Cloyster can easily auto win vs. flying and dragon". because I've actually done it. It mostly depends on the team they have, and what they lead against. The damning thing for them is lacking priority and failing to lead with a strong special attacker right off the gate. As for Skarm, I'm one of those crazy guys that runs the King's Rock, so I'm very picky about where I shell smash in the first place. More often than not, I get the flinch, and that's the game.
In the time I ran Kyu-B, I found scarf to be grossly inferior to both Sub/LO or Roost/LO. The beauty of the thing to me is the amount of coverage it has, and being locked into one attack just doesn't cut it. I've found it to be no better or worse than Kyurem W, since they both maim flying like crazy anyway.
All of those types you mentioned still get rekt by Kyurem B. The only difference Kyurem W ever really made was making Ferrothorn a complete non issue. We had ways of dealing with that thing anyway, so it's kinda moot. The ice beam is still there. The earth power is still there. Also speaking of this quote here:
You mean like Fairy vs Metagross? Oh wait, I thought you guys were OK with that. One more thing:
More like it's extremely relevant, because if it was really that broken, ice would be top tier because all the casuals and scrubs would be using it for easy wins. All it really does it make battling the types that ice already beat only slightly easier.
DoW
formally Death on Wings
Alas, I don't have the time to spend another two hours answering posts. I shall, however, do the best I can in the time available.
Cloyster with focus sash has a very difficult time against flying. The only pokemon on my team that won't OHKO it will whirlwind it away. Moreover, relying on a 41% flinch chance to break through walls isn't entirely perfect either. "More often than not" it may seem, but really it isn't. A good flying player will keep up the pressure, so that cloyster doesn't get a chance to boost up.
Kyu-B, as well, struggles to gain momentum if it doesn't run scarf, especially on a team with as little support as ice. This time, there's two pokemon that won't OHKO it as it switches in; this time, one will almost always u-turn out while it switches in, and the other will generally be clicking "whirlwind" assuming stealth rock is up, while doing a decent job of tanking its hits in any case.
"All those types you mentioned get rekt by Kyurem B" Nope. I used to play Poison a bit before Kyu-W and Skymin were released into the metagame. Kyu-W is troublesome to deal with, it's true, but if you can Will-o-wisp it or otherwise play around it, it can be extremely difficult to beat rather than impossible to beat. And that's one hell of a difference, believe me.
Metagross will probably be looked at in the future, due to how well it deals with fairy. However, it should be noted that while Metagross utterly wrecks fairy, it's not as notorious for destroying types as Kyu-W is. Metagross destroys fairy, but struggles elsewhere, for example M-Aggron can take it decently well for rock teams. The list of types Kyu-W breaks is horrifically long, and many of them are types that are already struggling: Grass, Electric and Poison are all types we're trying to help "fix". Keeping this monster around for no real reason other than "it's not used much" isn't good enough.
And yes, the lack of usage is important. It shows that not only is it broken it also doesn't do the job it was released to do. It makes the metagame worse in a vast number of ways, and does not improve it in any significant way, not even the way it was designed to help. It's not that Kyu-W is broken against everything. As I've explained before, it makes type advantage far more important, thus making the game far less competitive. This is a bad thing. It should be banned.
I wholeheartedly agree with Articuno I said about Kyu-W.
Also, for those who keep saying Kyu-W isn't broken and it's acceptable in the metagame because Ice has little usage, riddle me this: let's take a "good" type like water, strip it of its "good" mons and leave it with the likes of Luvdisc and Basculin as its only options. Does this mean Kyogre should be unbanned? Water would still lose to grass and it would utterly massacre types like fire and rock, but that could have been possible anyway even without Kyogre.
Ice is currently in this exact situation. Kyurem-W is an extremely powerful pokemon, but it has its weaknesses and so do Zekrom, Kyogre and the other ubers. They're ubers because their presence in the metagame does more harm than good, whether we're talking about OU or monotype. What Kyu-W did was making Ice's good match-ups (grass, electric, ground, flying, dragon and poison) even more one-sided than before. This was the same issue with Talonflame vs grass and bug (and fighting to a lesser extent) and the bird got hit with the banstick, so why shouldn't a bona fide uber get the same treatment?
Also, for those who keep saying Kyu-W isn't broken and it's acceptable in the metagame because Ice has little usage, riddle me this: let's take a "good" type like water, strip it of its "good" mons and leave it with the likes of Luvdisc and Basculin as its only options. Does this mean Kyogre should be unbanned? Water would still lose to grass and it would utterly massacre types like fire and rock, but that could have been possible anyway even without Kyogre.
Ice is currently in this exact situation. Kyurem-W is an extremely powerful pokemon, but it has its weaknesses and so do Zekrom, Kyogre and the other ubers. They're ubers because their presence in the metagame does more harm than good, whether we're talking about OU or monotype. What Kyu-W did was making Ice's good match-ups (grass, electric, ground, flying, dragon and poison) even more one-sided than before. This was the same issue with Talonflame vs grass and bug (and fighting to a lesser extent) and the bird got hit with the banstick, so why shouldn't a bona fide uber get the same treatment?
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ok guys, the discussion about suspects is getting a bit exhausting and we seem to be reiterating the same points over and over again, with slight different twists, so this should provide an interesting change of direction. I present to you...
Other Metas Mobile Research Laboratory
What is this? It's a mini-project to spark discussion within the subject's thread instead of siphoning it off into a new thread somewhere else. Each week or so I'll post a new topic in a metagame or pet mod. Topics will vary from thread to thread, so make sure to check out each one to see if it's something you want to participate in. Plus, if it dies, at least there isn't an empty thread cluttering up the subforum. (intro by Eevee General)
Week 4 - Monotype
Topic: Monotype viability vs OU viability
In Monotype, you tend to see a mix of Pokemon on teams. You have your OU titans, dominant here as they are in standard tiers, but then you also see the unsung heroes, Pokemon that no-one in their right mind would use on a serious OU team but find their way onto Monotype teams thanks to unique traits that only they can provide for their team. The main question we'll be researching is what makes these Pokemon viable, among others.
-What factors make a pokemon viable in monotype?
-Are these factors significantly different from OU?
-If one type has access to many OU pokemon while another type has only one or two OU pokemon, does that automatically mean the first type is better?
-Is team cohesiveness more significant in monotype than it is in OU or is it equally important in both?
Bring us your examples of your unsung heroes, how they do work for you and try and answer the questions above if possible, I look forward to seeing some of the stuff you come up with!
Credit to Acast for the topic idea and the questions, and Eevee General for the project in the first place c:
Other Metas Mobile Research Laboratory
What is this? It's a mini-project to spark discussion within the subject's thread instead of siphoning it off into a new thread somewhere else. Each week or so I'll post a new topic in a metagame or pet mod. Topics will vary from thread to thread, so make sure to check out each one to see if it's something you want to participate in. Plus, if it dies, at least there isn't an empty thread cluttering up the subforum. (intro by Eevee General)
Week 4 - Monotype
Topic: Monotype viability vs OU viability
In Monotype, you tend to see a mix of Pokemon on teams. You have your OU titans, dominant here as they are in standard tiers, but then you also see the unsung heroes, Pokemon that no-one in their right mind would use on a serious OU team but find their way onto Monotype teams thanks to unique traits that only they can provide for their team. The main question we'll be researching is what makes these Pokemon viable, among others.
-What factors make a pokemon viable in monotype?
-Are these factors significantly different from OU?
-If one type has access to many OU pokemon while another type has only one or two OU pokemon, does that automatically mean the first type is better?
-Is team cohesiveness more significant in monotype than it is in OU or is it equally important in both?
Bring us your examples of your unsung heroes, how they do work for you and try and answer the questions above if possible, I look forward to seeing some of the stuff you come up with!
Credit to Acast for the topic idea and the questions, and Eevee General for the project in the first place c:
Okies, I'll start this off c:
A pokemon's viability in the monotype meta is based upon different factors than those that determine their viability in other tiers, whether that be OU or NU. That's not to say every pokemon in PU will have a place in monotype; those pokemon are PU for a reason. But many pokemon that one might typically disregard have much greater value in the context of the monotype tier.
Overall, a pokemon's viability in monotype comes down to this (some overlap).
Typing:
If a player used a team of pure fire types, they would never escape the lower rungs of the ladder, because the most basic weakness of a monotype team is the shared typing that holds it together. Therefore a factor in a pokemon's mono-viability is whether it's typing/ability neutralizes typical weaknesses of the team either defensively or offensively. Landorus offers flying valuable electric immunity and ground neutrality. Mega-Venusaur is gives grass neutrality to bug, poison, fire and ice.
Utility:
Some monos need it more than others, but everyone wants a little utility. Utility refers to hazard control, clericing, and anti-stall measures such as taunt or trick/scarfs. The most important of the three in monotype is hazard control, as some monotypes win or lose based upon whether stealth rocks are up (fire/bug/ice/flying). This adds tremendous value to pokemon like Forretress, Armaldo, Torkoal, Tentacruel, Empoleon, and more.
Threat Addressal:
Because of the inherent restrictions monotype places upon teams, players are forced to be creative with the pokemon they have at their disposal to deal with threats from all across the Tier List. Grass teams must deal with Fire, Water teams must deal with Electric, and Flying must deal with Ice. To be successful your team must be equipped to deal with major threats like Mega-Charizard XY or Mega-Metagross or Keldeo or Mega-Sableye, lest you be crushed. Does a pokemon help counter, check, or wall a serious threat?
Team Synergy:
Last of all, Team syngergy is a large factor, perhaps a amalgam of the previous three points. Does the pokemon's typing, ability or movepool add to your team's internal defensive or offensive synergy? Do you have a balance of physical and special offense, or pivot utility, or a certain coverage move?
These are the same questions OU players ask themselves when teambuilding. The main difference in monotype is a severe restriction of choices c:
To illustrate these points, here are two examples of pokemon who despite having absolutely no place on an OU team have great value in the monotype meta :)
Cradily
In OU: Cradily has little place on OU teams. It's typing leaves it with common steel, fighting, ice, and bug weaknesses and little in the way of retaliation. What few pokemon it can check can easily be switched out to pokemon that completely wall cradily such as Ferrothorn or Skarmory. Water immunity is nice, but every user of water based moves in OU has fighting STAB or mold breaker to render the immunities useless. But in Monotype...
On Grass: Cradily offers grass teams another reliable stealth rocks setter as well as a switch in for moderate to strong fire based attacks. It's STAB rock moves threaten the bug, flying, fire, and ice pokemon that threaten grass. Rock Slide will OHKO Zard-Y or Volcarona. Curse Sets can sweep careless Flying teams once Zapdos goes down.
On Rock: The water immunity provided by storm drain is an asset for rock teams; additionally cradily has neutrality to ground attacks and STAB grass moves to clear out Water and Ground type pokemon. Cradily's bulk is bolstered further by the sand provided by Tyranitar, and with reliable recovery Cradily can pose a formidable challenge.
C R A D I L -
- I C I O U SS W A G
Anyways Imma write more, but this is good for now c:Torkoal
In OU: Torkoal's main appeals are that it has stealth rocks, rapid spin, lava plume, and various other forms of status (yawn/will o wisp). However, these are all roles that Heatran largely fufills and outperforms Torkoal; posing a more formidable threat to common defoggers. There are better Spinners, such as Blastoise or Forretress.
On Fire: Torkoal serves the important role of being the only spinner availible to fire monotypes. Fire teams do have defog potential on Charizard and Moltres, as well as plenty of taunt for more proactive players. But nonetheless Torkoal provides a valuable service to fire teams. Yawn forces switches, letting torkoal keep defoggers and other threats off the field with good timing.
T W E R K
I TT W E R K O A L
Peace o/
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- ArVaDa- cracks knuckles
Okay so
Articuno rules the streets. I don't think any other poke is as undervalued as cuno is when it come to tiering (It is PU ._.). This thing tanks almost EVERYTHING flying needs it to tank.
"insert user"- Okay ArVaDa-, you're biased , I know you use flying, you would probably be better off using another 'mon to be honest.
Well for starters, humble user, ice attacks are very much a threat to flying, and while Charizard is a very nice choice, Articuno's special bulk is more than enough reason to consider for your flying team, in case something that isn't an ice special attack lands.
For Example:
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 227-269 (63 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 143-169 (39.7 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Articuno: 122-146 (31.8 - 38.1%) -- 95.5% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Articuno: 78-92 (20.3 - 24%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
"insert user"- B-but, what about super effect attacks? I know that thing gets flamethrower and thunderbolt!
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Articuno: 156-185 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Articuno: 153-182 (39.9 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Articuno is a boss good sir!
"insert user"- Alright, well Stealth Rocks is very crippling, and if that goes up against a scarf'd ice beamer you're pretty much done, thus there is no reason to use that.
252 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Articuno: 60-71 (15.6 - 18.5%) -- 76.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Articuno: 78-93 (20.3 - 24.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
You were saying?
"insert user"- Like I said, rock moves will destroy it, just switch to something that knows a rock move after it tanks a special hit.
Well not only is skarmory or gliscor able to support it if i know a stone edge is coming, but I use something a little less generic just in case.
252+ Atk Gyarados Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Articuno through Reflect: 234-276 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 292-348 (88.2 - 105.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Articuno through Reflect: 218-258 (56.9 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 336-396 (94.1 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
So even if I didn't know if your mon had a rock move or not, this bird can still roost off damage to fight another day.
"insert user"- Okay okay you've convinced me, Articuno is tanned asf.
Couldn't have said it better my self :^) .
Main take away with Monotype being different from OU is that standard pokes in OU aren't available on all types. Chansey would be great for flying since it could take all the special moves that they are constantly being bombarded with, but chansey can be, in a sense, split into various other pokes to do the same job.
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To follow up on showing off a undervalued poke...
What factors make a pokemon viable in monotype?
A poke is generally viable when it provides synergy to cover a type weakness and/or crush threats that endanger the team (ice in flying's case).
Are these factors significantly different from OU?
No, almost identically the same. The difference is the pool of pokemon you can pick from in each type tends to not have the "whole package" of pokes you would like on an OU team.
If one type has access to many OU pokemon while another type has only one or two OU pokemon, does that automatically mean the first type is better?
Not necessarily. Steel, water, and flying have lots of OU mons and can be argued to be the best types, however alot of matchups are decided by how much you are "invested" into defending/defeating another type. Do you care about losing to ice when you use flying? Do you happen to be carrying the right moves to defeat fire? And sometimes you can over invest. Some teams invest so much into covering all of their weaknesses that they lose to neutral or even favored matchups more easily.
Is team cohesiveness more significant in monotype than it is in OU or is it equally important in both?
I would say it is about equally as important (I don't actually know). There is a balance in OU to check all kinds of threats that can exist. In monotype, not every team can have every pokemon, so when you are worrying about mega pinsir, you don't also have to worry about slowbro appearing on the same team. This is actually a very deep question that could be observed in depth if one wanted to spend the time on that.
What factors make a pokemon viable in monotype?
A poke is generally viable when it provides synergy to cover a type weakness and/or crush threats that endanger the team (ice in flying's case).
Are these factors significantly different from OU?
No, almost identically the same. The difference is the pool of pokemon you can pick from in each type tends to not have the "whole package" of pokes you would like on an OU team.
If one type has access to many OU pokemon while another type has only one or two OU pokemon, does that automatically mean the first type is better?
Not necessarily. Steel, water, and flying have lots of OU mons and can be argued to be the best types, however alot of matchups are decided by how much you are "invested" into defending/defeating another type. Do you care about losing to ice when you use flying? Do you happen to be carrying the right moves to defeat fire? And sometimes you can over invest. Some teams invest so much into covering all of their weaknesses that they lose to neutral or even favored matchups more easily.
Is team cohesiveness more significant in monotype than it is in OU or is it equally important in both?
I would say it is about equally as important (I don't actually know). There is a balance in OU to check all kinds of threats that can exist. In monotype, not every team can have every pokemon, so when you are worrying about mega pinsir, you don't also have to worry about slowbro appearing on the same team. This is actually a very deep question that could be observed in depth if one wanted to spend the time on that.
Um that 25% off is huge, don't just shrug that off as nothing. You do not need a powerful scarfer either, anything that is above the 100 speed tier scarfed and a move that hits SE is able to revenge kill it. I don't see how it restricts teambuilding. Sure you have it in mind, but it should never cost you a severe amount of practicality. It's tough for electric because Chari-X basically walls nearly every offensive poke they have. however paralyzing it and then EQing it with whatever usually solves this problem. You can also make your team less setup bait.
>"Never Know what set it's running"
Excuse my french but, Horse S***. It's either bulkyzard or d-dance. No ifs ,ands or buts. Most of your claims are just baseless assertions that have no supporting argument whatsoever. For the bulky variant you don't worry about it sweeping you and can just toxic and the traditional ways of killing the D-dance variant work the same. As for D-dance I'll just state it again. Scarf over 100 base tier with SE move(even if it's not SE, something with priority wipes it off the map), Something that eats a hit and takes it out (ex. Swampert, AB Heatran) - By "takes it out" this can also mean para. These reqs are not that hard to fulfill just naturally teambuilding a team :I
"Most types struggle with this monster"
Dragon, ground, water(Sampert, Azu, many more), fire(Glaciate Scarftini, Mach Punch Infernape, Arcanine/Entei, T-wave Rotom-H), fairy(Mega Diancie, Azu, Klefki, Toge), Rock, steel(AB Heatran, Bisharp, Cobalion, Empoleon), psychic(Latios, Glaciate Scarftini, MegaCham, Uxie"T-wave"), fighting(Priority, Scarf Keldeo/Terrak),
normal(Ditto, Snorlax, Pory2, Lopunny, Ambipom, Diggersby Tho?), dark(t-tar,Mind games w/ Sucker Punch, Krook), flying, Grass(Scarf HP Rock Serperior, Breloom, Scarf Sceptile, Shiftry, Scarf Virizion, Whimsicott).
- All of these types have a fairly easy way of ridding of Chari-X, so remind me how is that most? The remaining types still have ways to kill, but I wouldn't say It's as easy as the types above(elec has to para first, Ghost needs scarfGar, ice ;-; needs niche things but fake out weavile, preserving sash on froslass, Pilowsine, and Walrein for example).
Tbh, I think flying is very overrated and chari-x with that. First and foremost flying is in a very delicate balance right now and is barely able to run balance/stall. Chari-X Basically carries the playstyle and puts in a lot of work for HO as well. If Chari-X is banned for "bettering the meta" then you just made two playstyle unviable for flying because it will just force it into too many 50/50s via BoltBeam predictions. What this essentially does is return flying to it's Gen V. A Hyper Offensive Cluster F***. Defog helped alleviate this, but I'd argue charizard x had a just as large effect.
At it's current state, Flying doesn't just automatically win you the game. You have to predict and play your cards carefully. Some of the most intense battles usually feature a flying team. Hell for flying you don't have 5 fodder mons and 1 mon sweeping. No, you have a team that needs to have synergy and be played well to win. Generic Flying is commonly complained about however you get that in any metagame, pokemon or not. In any game, what is seen as successful is more commonly used. There will always be a generic team of whatever type, no matter what you do. Flying is one of the better types and is in fact top tier. No matter what there will always be tiers and in the top tier I'd rather it be a type that doesn't have a bluntly broken pokemon. All this being said, I don't even main flying.
tl;dr: Flying Monotype is a lot like the harmonica. Noob Friendly, but hard to master. Oh and good poke =/= broken :I
Okay this might be long lol .3.
Let it be known that while I think banning Zard-X would improve the meta, idgaf whether it happens or not nor am I staunchly advocating for it.
But there were just so many holes in your arguments, I couldn't resist c:
Really nothing less than banded Electavire is clearing Zard-X out, or MEga-Ampharos if you've pulled off the para.
252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 226-266 (76 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And as for scarves with SE moves and 100+ base speed; That's not something every monotype has easy access to, or would naturally have on a team when teambuilding. Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Latios, Scarf Garchomp are the only pokemon that come to mind tbh.
Oh, and "something with priority wipes it off the map".... what?
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 78-93 (26.2 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 127-151 (42.7 - 50.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 88-105 (29.6 - 35.3%) -- 17.9% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 109-129 (36.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 134-158 (45.1 - 53.1%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO
What priority are you using? Can i haz it?
A lot of your suggestions are really really bad, so bad that I ended up taking half of this post pointing out why.
It wasn't the most constructive form of discussion though, but since I wrote it it's in the quote below.
.3.
But moving on....
.3.
.3.
I feel flying type is more than top tier, it's simply oversupplied with the means to dispatch it's weaknesses and defeat other monotypes. It's clearly better equipped to deal with this meta than most types. Whether or not flying is broken doesn't depend on one pokemon like charizard-x. Flying's strength is in it's internal synergy. To be honest most flying teams could manage perfectly well without zard-x.
I mean you can say "boltbeam is the easiest coverage to obtain in the game", but how many pokemon actually have it, especially in monotype? There are only a handful I can think of; electric types who run HP Ice (SpD Gliscor dispatches), Kyurem-B, Genesect, Porygon2/Z, rotom-fridge..... Even then, Mega-Gyarados and Articuno exist and tank a lot of the crucial hits they need to.
I can't argue Charizard-X warrants a ban based on it's own merits, and I'd have trouble arguing that it warrants a ban based on flying monos being "overpowered".
All I can argue is that Charizard-X leaving the meta would be interesting,and that's enough for me .3.
Let it be known that while I think banning Zard-X would improve the meta, idgaf whether it happens or not nor am I staunchly advocating for it.
But there were just so many holes in your arguments, I couldn't resist c:
Go look up how many electric pokemon know Earthquake. It's okay; I can wait ;3;
Really nothing less than banded Electavire is clearing Zard-X out, or MEga-Ampharos if you've pulled off the para.
Again, this doesn't really apply to all teams. Grass better be running Stun Spore Whimsicott or gg. Also regarding Heatran...
252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 226-266 (76 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And as for scarves with SE moves and 100+ base speed; That's not something every monotype has easy access to, or would naturally have on a team when teambuilding. Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Latios, Scarf Garchomp are the only pokemon that come to mind tbh.
Oh, and "something with priority wipes it off the map".... what?
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 78-93 (26.2 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 127-151 (42.7 - 50.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 88-105 (29.6 - 35.3%) -- 17.9% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 109-129 (36.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 134-158 (45.1 - 53.1%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO
What priority are you using? Can i haz it?
Ok, Your suggestions for Dragon/Ground/Water/Fairy are alright, though I'd add foul play mandibuzz to the dark list. The other types, however....
A lot of your suggestions are really really bad, so bad that I ended up taking half of this post pointing out why.
It wasn't the most constructive form of discussion though, but since I wrote it it's in the quote below.
.3.
Anyway, a big criticism is that all the suggestions for dealing with DD Zard X are royally screwed by bulkzard.
But moving on....
.3.
.3.
.3.
There is such a thing as being "too well equipped".
I feel flying type is more than top tier, it's simply oversupplied with the means to dispatch it's weaknesses and defeat other monotypes. It's clearly better equipped to deal with this meta than most types. Whether or not flying is broken doesn't depend on one pokemon like charizard-x. Flying's strength is in it's internal synergy. To be honest most flying teams could manage perfectly well without zard-x.
I mean you can say "boltbeam is the easiest coverage to obtain in the game", but how many pokemon actually have it, especially in monotype? There are only a handful I can think of; electric types who run HP Ice (SpD Gliscor dispatches), Kyurem-B, Genesect, Porygon2/Z, rotom-fridge..... Even then, Mega-Gyarados and Articuno exist and tank a lot of the crucial hits they need to.
I can't argue Charizard-X warrants a ban based on it's own merits, and I'd have trouble arguing that it warrants a ban based on flying monos being "overpowered".
All I can argue is that Charizard-X leaving the meta would be interesting,
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