Moltres HP

[gabriel]

This thread is closed. Here's the new discussion thread link, vote and discuss there, and please, if you vote, explain your point of view.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30185


I was wondering about which HP (Hidden Power) type would be the best for a Moltres. We have 6 options:

1) Ice
2) Electric
3) Fighting
4) Ground
5) Water
6) Grass

Now, let's focus on the threats HP should be able to counter.

. Dragons (Salamence, Garchomp and Dragonite)
. Rock types (Basically Tyranitar and Ryperior)
. Water types (Basically Swampert, Empoleon, Milotic and the rare Suicune)
. Ground types (Hippowdon and Donphan are the most common ones)
. Heatran and Gyarados

Before we start, I'd like to remember Moltres is really fragile, and it has 4x SR weak, so having a good coverage is really needed, so you won't be walled and forced to switch so easily.

Now, let's have a look at each type coverage with considering a Fire and Flying attack (STABed Flamethrower and Air Slash)

1) Ice: One of the most commom HPs, it completely destroys dragon and ground types but leave you helpless against Heatran and water types. Maybe you can handle Gyarados with WoW + Air Slash, but it's far from a reliable option.

2) Electric: Another commom choice. Rapes Gyarados and does well against water types, but Rock, Ground and Dragon types will make you cry unless you have WoW. Even if you do, they'll still be a problem.

3) Fighting: It destroys Tyranitar who is Moltres biggest fear and hurt Rhyperior and Heatran. Good luck using WoW and Air Slash to handle other enemies, though.

4)Ground: One of my favorite options, it's pretty much like Fighting but you destroy Heatran instead of Tyranitar. Tyranitar and Rhyperior will still have problems, and so do you when you face Water, Ground and Dragon types.

5)Water: Same as before. You focus on defeating Rhyperior while still damaging Tyranitar and Heatran. But this time, you'll at least have a better coverage against Ground types.

6)Grass: The less commom version. It hurts Water, Ground and Rock types but it's useless against Dragons and Heatran.

So, what do you people think about it? Which HP would you use?

 

[cornflake]

Well, Ice is a great offensive type, and seeing as Moltres cannot obtain any other Ice attacks, it seems like a good choice. You can also hit some potent pokemon for 4x damage: Garchomp, Salamence, and Gliscor just to name a few. It also is supereffective on dragons and fliers, so you can get more coverage there too.

So basically, I think Ice is the way to go. Sure, Electric kills Gyara, Fight kills TTar, Ground kills Tran, and Grass hammers Swampy, but those are only single pokemon. Ice does so much more.

 

[gabriel]

Ok, but let's suppose you face Tyranitar. You can't even scratch it with Sandstream Sp.Def boost, so you'll be forced to switch.

And you'll have to face a sandstorm from now on. Sandstorm greatly lowers Moltres survavility, specially if you face SR later, so, dealing with Ttar is kinda a need and HP Ice can't handle it.

 

[viper]

Ok, but let's suppose you face Tyranitar. You can't even scratch it with Sandstream Sp.Def boost, so you'll be forced to switch.

And you'll have to face a sandstorm from now on. Sandstorm greatly lowers Moltres survavility, specially if you face SR later, so, dealing with Ttar is kinda a need and HP Ice can't handle it.

you burn it on later switch ins with will o wisp

 

[gabriel]

But you can't do much if Sandstorm and SR are in play, you'll have to predict correctly and WoW MUST hit.

That's why I think HP Ground/Fighting are the best options.

 

[Thunderpup]

True.

However, what are we looking at? On a wide scale? If so, Ice is clearly the best option, giving coverage than the other options.

But like most users of HP know, you should use a HP that fits your team. If you have awesome dragon control, maybe you should run HP fighting, because tyranitar can beat you senseless.

Can someone run some calculations on how effective the HP types off moltres's base 125 special attack does to the counters in certain scenarios?

I'll do Tyranitar.

Moltres @ Specs
Modest 252 Moltres vs. 252/0 Neutral TTar: 82.92% - 97.52%
Modest 252 Moltres vs. 60/0 Neutral TTar: 94.10% - 110.67%
Neutral Nature 252 Moltres vs. 252/0 Neutral TTar: 75.74% - 89.11%
Neutral Nature 252 Moltres vs. 60/0 Neutral TTar: 85.96% - 101.12%

Moltres @ Life Orb/Expert Belt
Modest 252 Moltres vs. 252/0 Neutral TTar: 65.84% - 77.48%
Modest 252 Moltres vs. 60/0 Neutral TTar: 74.72% - 87.92%

So I think it's clear that you can finish off a hurt Tyranitar as a revengekill, but it's also clear that even HP fighting isn't very effective at taking it down in one hit besides him, I don't think it does much for heatran or rhyperior either, unless you catch them on the switch.

 

[bobblyhead]

HP Ice is generally the best option, with Grass in second. You want type coverage, so this is good type coverage.

 

[Silver610]

Good luck getting a decent Power for the HP in-game, but on Shoddy, go for Ice. It really depends on the need in your team though.

 

[gabriel]

So I think it's clear that you can finish off a hurt Tyranitar as a revengekill, but it's also clear that even HP fighting isn't very effective at taking it down in one hit besides him, I don't think it does much for heatran or rhyperior either, unless you catch them on the switch.

You're right about Rhyperior, but a CS HP Fight will certainly hurt Heatran more than Dragon Pulse hurts you, and guess who's faster?

Edit: Getting a good HP In-Game by soft reseting legendaries is easier than it looks like.

 

[Thunderpup]

You're right about Rhyperior, but a CS HP Fight will certainly hurt Heatran more than Dragon Pulse hurts you, and guess who's faster?

Edit: Getting a good HP In-Game by soft reseting legendaries is easier than it looks like.

True. Off specs, it does like ~60%, expert belt is ~55%, but I don't remember exactly.

 

[Steven718]

THere's no way you leave moltres in on Tyranitar anyways, better to try to burn on switch and run. Even with HP Grass you wont beat it.

 

[gabriel]

As Thunderpup's calcuations showed, you can counter Tyranitar with HP Fighting.

 

[Steven718]

As Thunderpup's calcuations showed, you can counter Tyranitar with HP Fighting.

You can't "counter" it, countering something would be being able to switch into something and then beat it/scare it off. Only way Moltres beats TTar with HP Fighting is by predicting a switch in.

 

[Silver610]

Edit: Getting a good HP In-Game by soft reseting legendaries is easier than it looks like.

Are you Fucking kidding me? Look at my sig. 700 SRs. Is that what you call "easy"?

 

[Steven718]

Are you Fucking kidding me? Look at my sig. 700 SRs. Is that what you call "easy"?

Heh I got a bold HP Ice 70 zapdos that I tossed because the def was too low, they aren't really that uncommon.

 

[Silver610]

Heh I got a bold HP Ice 70 zapdos that I tossed because the def was too low, they aren't really that uncommon.

Eh, how low was its def? Look at my Bold Zapdos. Was it as good as mine?

 

[Steven718]

Eh, how low was its def? Look at my Bold Zapdos. Was it as good as mine?

Bold #145 Zapdos: 18 / 26 / 10 / 31 / 23 / 23 HP Ice 70

yours is much better statwise IMO

 

[gabriel]

Are you Fucking kidding me? Look at my sig. 700 SRs. Is that what you call "easy"?

Not really. I got a good HP Ground Moltres in about 30 soft resets. I know, I was lucky, but it's not so difficult. Have a look at it on my store.

You can't "counter" it, countering something would be being able to switch into something and then beat it/scare it off. Only way Moltres beats TTar with HP Fighting is by predicting a switch in.

A Specs Moltres can cause up to 97% to a 252 HP Ttar. It means that any residual damage (like SR) means it's dead. Non-252 HP spreads doesn't even have a chance of surviving. You can revenge kill it, or even 2KO it if you're not running a Specs Moltres.

 

[WuddleBlock]

Not really. I got a good HP Ground Moltres in about 30 soft resets. I know, I was lucky, but it's not so difficult.

You were simply lucky then imo o.O

 

[Silver610]

Not really. I got a good HP Ground Moltres in about 30 soft resets. I know, I was lucky, but it's not so difficult. Have a look at it on my store.

Thats called luck, let me check the power. Hold on a sec.

EDIT: 63 isn't bad. I'm guessing its defenses aren't high, so its not that good. I've gotten a lot of good IVd Moltres, and my standards are a lot higher thatn yours, so thats why its taking me longer. You did get pretty lucky though.

 

[gabriel]

I know I did, but it's not really necessary to SR 700+ times to get a good HP Legendary.

 

[Silver610]

I know I did, but it's not really necessary to SR 700+ times to get a good HP Legendary.

I agree with you, I don't feel its completely worth it, and the fact that I'm getting extremely unlucky (I've really only got 3-5 Moltres that I found to be usable) does bais my opinion. I'd say its not impossible to get a good legend, but not a walk in the park.

 

[gabriel]

It's not a walk, but maybe two. ;D

Anyway, the point of this thread is not to discuss about how easy or difficult it is to get a good HP Moltres, but which HP to use, so let's focus on that.

 

[Silver610]

Yeah, we did go a little off topic...

I'd say that I'd use Ice, though if I got a good electric one, I'd keep it.

 

[The_Rider]

Ice IMO, grass comes next, then electric