Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v2

[hecatomb]

if metagross gets banned there wont be any real counter to Tapu Lele, Tapu Lele on the other hand just makes metagross even stronger with psychic terrain. Greninja keeps metagross in check, and Greninja im sure gets used a lot more than metagross. Though I think if metagross gets banned a lot of people are going to use bisharp to counter Tapu Lele.

If you really cant beat metagross, just use mega scizor, or Greninja, or both.

 

[psVoltage]

if metagross gets banned there wont be any real counter to Tapu Lele, Tapu Lele on the other hand just makes metagross even stronger with psychic terrain. Greninja keeps metagross in check, and Greninja im sure gets used a lot more than metagross. Though I think if metagross gets banned a lot of people are going to use bisharp to counter Tapu Lele.

If you really cant beat metagross, just use mega scizor, or Greninja, or both.

Metagross isn't a Lele counter lol

 

[Schpoonman]

Bisharp can't "counter" Lele at all. Sucker Punch is negated and you take up to 90% from unboosted Timid Moonblast. Obviously Iron Head OHKOs, but getting to use an Iron Head is pretty much impossible. Megagross answered Lele by virtue of its typing AND its huge bulk. Bisharp needs 156 SpDef EVs and an Assault Vest just to guarantee living two Moonblasts, and that's without hazards. Bisharp's fallen completely off the radar for a reason this gen.

 

[PimpParasect]

if metagross gets banned there wont be any real counter to Tapu Lele, .

Good, then we have a more urgent reason to suspect lele. Bans > broken checking broken

____

Anyway, makes me wonder if mega bee might run pursuit over protect now, considering it can come in and force a switch instead of gambling to protect like last gen.

 

[Gotham-Mimiqui]

Mega Bee is mostly outclassed by Pheromosa. Despite the initial power of Bee, cockroach can hold an item and a Z-cristal. This is quite sad because I know some people who were really excited for it when they thought that Phero would be quickbanned at the start of S/M. On top, It's walled by Lando-T... Yeah. Bee also takes your Mega slot which is very bad when

 

[KztxL7]

To be honest I fail to see Mega Metagross as the top threat or problem at least when you have Tapu Lele and Protean Greninja running around.

I mean P-Greninja lost what in the generation shift? Nothing? While it gained Battle Bond Greninja to add additional pressure on your opponent to make sure you play correctly on Greninja which is hard enough because of the massive guessing games you have to play around it.

Then you have Tapu Lele which if anything is making Mega Metagross appear so over-the-top. Psychic Terrain removing the option of priority while giving it's main STAB a boost. It would be one thing if Tapu Lele had the effectiveness of Politoed but it in itself is an amazing Pokemon. With Tapu Lele running around of course I'd pick Mega Metagross almost everytime to abuse my opponent's or my own Psychic Terrain.

 

[Dakress]

Metagross isn't a Lele counter lol

Metagross is more of a check than anything. As long as it has over 70% HP, Meta has no trouble taking a hit from Scarf Lele in a pinch:

252 SpA Tapu Lele Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 162-192 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The closest thing Lele has for a counter is Celesteela, but that's assuming Lele doesn't have Thunderbolt, CM or Specs.

 

[TURBODERP]

Alolan Muk walls the crap out of even Specs Lele, and can Pursuit trap it or Knock Off a switch in.

 

[psVoltage]

Metagross is more of a check than anything. As long as it has over 70% HP, Meta has no trouble taking a hit from Scarf Lele in a pinch:

252 SpA Tapu Lele Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 162-192 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The closest thing Lele has for a counter is Celesteela, but that's assuming Lele doesn't have Thunderbolt, CM or Specs.

I agree with check but counter isn't something you can throw around. It's not safe to switch it in because it could be scarf shadow ball. Once you scout depending on sets it's more or less of a solid check.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I think Beedrill will have a small niche over phesmo,s who run non choice poison jab. It's completely reasonable for Beedrill to land a knock off(switch) u turn before they can fight back and fell stringer looks semi viable now being base 50 power and acting like swords dance(covers the option of them not switching and instead killing You.

But I could see the free moveslot getting it banned from uu easily.

I really think mega metetric will make the impact besides maybe mega mawile

Mega daintic will be like the best lead there ever was diamond storm will be a thing from hell but skill swap/scarf exadrill/lead dugtrio trap will tear it's face off and will fall short of mega sableye I think, like they make enough other more viable indirectly I think

 

[guan123]

To be honest I fail to see Mega Metagross as the top threat or problem at least when you have Tapu Lele and Protean Greninja running around.

I mean P-Greninja lost what in the generation shit? Nothing? While it gained Battle Bond Greninja to add additional pressure on your opponent to make sure you play correctly on Greninja which is hard enough because of the massive guessing games you have to play around it.

P-ninja did gain toxapex as a check (not counter due to extrasensory even on gunk shot greninja having almost a guaranteed 2HKO with black sludge recovery) meaning that Greninja suffers from higher 4MSS. In addition, mega venusaur being abundant means that greninja is practically forced to run extrasensory. It still has 2 moveslots to use, though. Really, Ice beam and extrasensory are almost essential. The other two slots can be gunk shot, low kick, hydro pump, dark pulse, toxic spikes, or even grass knot. Really, this thing warrants a suspect (probably after Tapu Lele, though).
p.s. I just want Ash-greninja NOT to be broken so that OU can use a Greninja form, even if Protean Greninja gets suspected and banned.

 

[Mikael]

While lele is powerful, its certainly not ban-worthy, imo. I consider mega gross and protean ninja waaay more threatening than her

 

[tenkai]

Tbh i know everyone gets excited but I think we all need to chill out about whats suspect worthy or not.

Keep in mind how relatively new this meta still is and how little actual time things have had to settle. Honestly I kinda have that issue in general with suspects, how people just immediately leap to the conclusion that somethings broken without giving anything time to settle. Remember in oras when megagross was suspected and wasnt banned? A couple of meta shifts later it was A- and wasnt considered remotely ban worthy, or even a major threat really. And remember when hoopa was banned, like, seconds after the specs set being discovered? Was there actually a way to handle it? we may never know, because people were like "wow this new things too good" and then it was gone immediately.

Like idk i guess theres no harm in discussing it but like just keep in mind its been like... a month

 

[KingKdot]

Am I the only one who's getting tired of playing speed pass every other game on the ladder? Is the council considering any more BP changes? Pretty cancerous ATM.

 

[Photofluid]

To be honest I fail to see Mega Metagross as the top threat or problem at least when you have Tapu Lele and Protean Greninja running around.

I mean P-Greninja lost what in the generation shift? Nothing? While it gained Battle Bond Greninja to add additional pressure on your opponent to make sure you play correctly on Greninja which is hard enough because of the massive guessing games you have to play around it.

Then you have Tapu Lele which if anything is making Mega Metagross appear so over-the-top. Psychic Terrain removing the option of priority while giving it's main STAB a boost. It would be one thing if Tapu Lele had the effectiveness of Politoed but it in itself is an amazing Pokemon. With Tapu Lele running around of course I'd pick Mega Metagross almost everytime to abuse my opponent's or my own Psychic Terrain.

Greninja IMO lost in some really subtle manner though, the meta is a lot more adapted to its presence for various reasons and there is also the power creep issue that makes it less impressive.

 

[Leo]

Am I the only one who's getting tired of playing speed pass every other game on the ladder? Is the council considering any more BP changes? Pretty cancerous ATM.

Yeah BP is getting really common on the ladder fortunately most players don't want to spend 10 mins building a bp team so they steal the RMT'd one and that makes it very predictable. Today I dropped from the 1600's and then lost to BP so I put a team together in like 10 mins and went 5-0 back up. Honestly I think that the main reason why BP is so good rn is because people are too concerned when teambuilding about not losing to stall or X pokemon that is a huge theat and has few checks (Megagross P-ninja etc) so they don't really have a solid gameplan against it. I still think BP is dumb and the combination of any stat boosting move/ability + BP should be banned but last gen the council decided against it and I don't think they'll do something different this time so let's wait til the meta adapts or whatever
Edit: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/unifying-baton-pass-clause-second-try.3588381/ this is the last thread made regarding bp and whether it should be banned or not in case you're curious about more experienced players' thoughts about it srsly 3 threads about bp in 6months and no ban?

 

[ian smart]

Am I the only one who's getting tired of playing speed pass every other game on the ladder? Is the council considering any more BP changes? Pretty cancerous ATM.

I'm also tired of seeing landot every game as well. Oh wait, both of them have counter play and aren't broken. Lets at least try to make adjustments in team building before banning it. Just cause something is good or popular doesn't mean it is "cancerous"

Yeah BP is getting really common on the ladder fortunately most players don't want to spend 10 mins building a bp team so they steal the RMT'd one and that makes it very predictable. Today I dropped from the 1600's and then lost to BP so I put a team together in like 10 mins and went 5-0 back up. Honestly I think that the main reason why BP is so good rn is because people are too concerned when teambuilding about not losing to stall or X pokemon that is a huge theat and has few checks (Megagross P-ninja etc) so they don't really have a solid gameplan against it. I still think BP is dumb and the combination of any stat boosting move/ability + BP should be banned but last gen the council decided against it and I don't think they'll do something different this time so let's wait til the meta adapts or whatever

at that point the move is broken. Legit the main reason why baton pass exists is to pass stat boosts. Also, let's try to adapt to this before yelling "ban it"

 

[Leo]

I'm also tired of seeing landot every game as well. Oh wait, both of them have counter play and aren't broken. Lets at least try to make adjustments in team building before banning it. Just cause something is good or popular doesn't mean it is "cancerous"


at that point the move is broken. Legit the main reason why baton pass exists is to pass stat boosts. Also, let's try to adapt to this before yelling "ban it"

Speedpass has been around for a while already (it was worse before the bp clause but it's been there eversince) and it always somehow manages to be relevant and "under the radar" but the meta eventually adapts and its usage on ladder decreases until it comes back and the same process all over again. BP is still not "everywhere on the ladder" but I think it'll eventually be again and there might be another discussion on it in the Policy Review subforum until the meta "adapts" again

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

never forget Your prankster T-waves/taunts, speed passes are painfully clear, I think HO is the hardest team to build right now within terms of being well rounded and not getting super bodied by a hand full of mons/archetypes, just the speed tiers are so wildly everywhere it's hard not to use a scarf and end up hitting to softly of of fear of something faster

 

[Leo]

never forget Your prankster T-waves/taunts, speed passes are painfully clear, I think HO is the hardest team to build right now within terms of being well rounded and not getting super bodied by a hand full of mons/archetypes, just the speed tiers are so wildly everywhere it's hard not to use a scarf and end up hitting to softly of of fear of something faster

What even runs prankster taunt(? Prankster t-wave is a thing but here's how I see the scenario: You're forced to lead your Thundurus on the Scoli so if you're oppo predicts that and leads X mon that beats you it forces a 50-50 cause if you double you get to sub and protect and avoid t-wave. Sure, you might be able to T-Wave the mon that got the boost but on the same turn it attacks and you die and now you have to take on 3 more speed recipients.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

You don't have to lead with it XD switch in off of whatever Your normal lead is if hazards aren't needed because turn 1 it'll always use protect or sub(they're bad/have a read) and then You can go back to normal for a few turns or hopefully t-wave it

I'm not going to sit here and say it's the best option but it's the easiest way to blanket check it without doing something silly like skill link SD lead cloyster where used to be decent in ubers

hell sometimes I run lead dugtrio to smash in exadrill's face and if I can defog nice and easy

 

[Leo]

You don't have to lead with it XD switch in off of whatever Your normal lead is if hazards aren't needed because turn 1 it'll always use protect or sub(they're bad/have a read) and then You can go back to normal for a few turns or hopefully t-wave it

I'm not going to sit here and say it's the best option but it's the easiest way to blanket check it without doing something silly like skill link SD lead cloyster where used to be decent in ubers

hell sometimes I run lead dugtrio to smash in exadrill's face and if I can defog nice and easy

I don't really want to make this bp thing longer but let's say you lead lando or whatever on Scoli. Now you can't prankster t-wave it cause it's gonna be behind a sub and eventually you'll get to the scenario where you are forced to prankster t-wave the speed recipient that is about to sweep you and then lose your thund and eventually get swept. Having 1 prankster mon just isn't enough to check 4-5 speed recipients. I'm not exclusively talking about the Xurk Speedpass team that everyone knows, I'm talking about bp teams in general and how bp players can overcome these "speedpassing checks".

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Run taunt instead, it can also handle other rockers.

I think it in context of building a balance that handles stall and most stuff minus speed wars and then being able to play that speed pass game mid game could be completly damning strong, with the right speed it's to easy to dry up those speed checks

 

[RainbowDemon]

Yeah BP is getting really common on the ladder fortunately most players don't want to spend 10 mins building a bp team so they steal the RMT'd one and that makes it very predictable. Today I dropped from the 1600's and then lost to BP so I put a team together in like 10 mins and went 5-0 back up. Honestly I think that the main reason why BP is so good rn is because people are too concerned when teambuilding about not losing to stall or X pokemon that is a huge theat and has few checks (Megagross P-ninja etc) so they don't really have a solid gameplan against it. I still think BP is dumb and the combination of any stat boosting move/ability + BP should be banned but last gen the council decided against it and I don't think they'll do something different this time so let's wait til the meta adapts or whatever
Edit: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/unifying-baton-pass-clause-second-try.3588381/ this is the last thread made regarding bp and whether it should be banned or not in case you're curious about more experienced players' thoughts about it srsly 3 threads about bp in 6months and no ban?

Methinks that if Hazing/Phazing wasn't so overlooked all these BP teams wouldn't thrive.

 

[Martin]

Methinks that if Hazing/Phazing wasn't so overlooked all these BP teams wouldn't thrive.

Offense doesn't have room to run Haze/PHazers in general, which is the biggest hole in your logic. Also recipients such as Espeon render attempts to use Roar/Whirlwind useless, and the viable Haze users consist of two passive, stall-only Pokémon (Toxapex and Mantine) and a Pokémon which has difficulty fitting it into its moveset (Tapu Fini). As such, running it isn't very practical on the majority of teams.