Metagame differences in an 1-149 enviroment.

[TSPhoenix]

The deal is that while the game is DP, only Pokemon 1-149 are allowed to be used.

The first thing that comes to mind is that due to the absence of Blissey (is Chansey viable?) and the general pool of RBY Pokemon that special Pokes become much more viable. Also a lot of metagame threats are just plain gone.

Fire becomes less valuable with Magneton being the only steel and the complete lack of dark types give Psychics a bit more breathing space.

This thread isn't really here to do any more than invoke a bit of though, do any amazing revelations jump into your head, do any Pokemon become notably more viable due to the total absence of others.

Things like Flail and Sunnybeam work better due to no Sand Stream or even Snow Warning. However I'm sure there is much more to it than that.

Post whatever you think of, there is a decent chance I haven't though of it and any discussion is good IMO.

Disclamer (not in B4 flaming) down at post #8.

 

[husk]

A notable difference: Psychic types wouldn't be as dominant as they were in rby because there are now good bug/dark/ghost moves and many pokemon (not only those that receive stab on them) learn those moves.

Though with the addition of CS and Alakazam's ch rate I'd say the metagame is fairly raped. Not to mention HP electrics.

EDIT: I'm glad the users: StarWizard and Maslada took the time to think and not ruin a potentially good topic.

 

[Kimi3013]

I like the idea of making a team form each of the local 'dexs from the games. Could be fun going back to to old teams from RBY and seeing how you can improve them too the new game.

 

[StarWizard]

A notable difference: Psychic types wouldn't be as dominant as they were in rby because there are now good bug/dark/ghost moves and many pokemon (not only those that receive stab on them) learn those moves.

Though with the addition of CS and Alakazam's ch rate I'd say the metagame is fairly raped. Not to mention HP electrics.

EDIT: I'm glad the users: StarWizard and Maslada took the time to think and not ruin a potentially good topic.

The thing is not the existance of those moves in the movepool of RBY pokémon. The thing is how many of these outspeed Timid Alakazam, Gengar, and Starmie (barring each other, that is), pokémon with a diverse enough movepool to KO those carrying bug/ghost/dark moves thanks to Choice Specs and Life Orb. And if you say Choice Scarfers, these three can use it too while still maintaning a good Special Attack to KO most of these wannabe counters.

You see, I did think about it, and even if I missed a point or two, the sheer dominance of Alakazam/Gengar/Starmie would be true. You can deny that the metagame would be ridiculously lopsided and unfun if you want, it won't stop it from being true.

EDIT - Typos, etc.

 

[Maslada]

A notable difference: Psychic types wouldn't be as dominant as they were in rby because there are now good bug/dark/ghost moves and many pokemon (not only those that receive stab on them) learn those moves.

I think only parasect, scyther and pinsir ,kingler and sandslash learn x-scissor, none have any business switching in on a faster special attacker. U-turn is learnt by shit load of birds which have no real business switching in as i believe just about all the RBY birds are slower than alakazam/gengar. Infact even a bulky hypno can run HP electric for them then nasty plot up for the win. That leaves who? Persian as the only fast learner of U-turn, an alazkazam even out runs him.

 

[TSPhoenix]

Shit I really should've clarified. I ask this because my site has a themed battle nights and this just so happened to be the theme. I cant say I like it but I'm willing to give it a go.

I'm not RBY fanboy, I never will be, I think Charizard may look cool, but lets face that apart from in 200 play never really shined, and Stealth Rock sealed his fate. RBY is not even close to my fave gen, in fact it cuts out pretty much my whole current DP team. I was gunning for GSC or RuSa theme, but hey I don't call the shots. This a good enough disclaimer?


So now that I've got that out of the way, can we continue, or is Gar/Zam/Starmie dominance where its going to end? IMO with stuff like Crunch Aerodactyl and Arcanine running around things could be more interesting that you are letting on.

Basically what I expect to see is a huge deviance in movesets from the standards, due to the lack of need for certain type coverage.

RBY was completely broken (6 Alakazams much), it wasn't any fun at all. This may have to potential to be a bit of fun and with the new moves and items it should play substantially different to DP.

 

[Havak]

I think Crunch Snorlax would be the best bet at ruining Zam/Starmie if this kind of metagame/Tournament did ever arise. Calm Mind Chansey puts a stop to Starmie too. Gengar can always sleep a counter or WoW it. I'm not sure if the metagame would work, but why not try to host a tournament once competitor is released? Could always test this out, and would egg moves that are only obtained via none 1-149 Pokémon be allowed etc?

I think this could possibly work, though. Also, when I first read this topics title, I expected it to be a discussion about the D/P Pokedex. As before the National Dex, there are only 151 Pokémon in that, although some Ubers would be left out, and probably Manaphy too. Anyone think this metagame would be played though? Like 200 in Adv.

 

[Trust]

All pokes between 1 and 149. All posssible attacks in DP. For example: you can use a Gyarados with Dragon Dance, but you haven't got Electivire to help it. Furthermore, we will use again Moltres and Articuno!, the forgotten birds...
List of RBY:

Standard

Charizard
Butterfree
Clefable
Dugtrio
Arcanine
Alakazam
Machamp
Slowbro
Weezing
Cloyster
Gengar
Exeggutor
Marowak
Rhydon
Chansey
Starmie
Magneton
Jynx
Pinsir
Tauros
Gyarados
Lapras
Vaporeon
Jolteon
Omastar
Aerodactyl
Snorlax
Articuno
Zapdos
Moltres
Dragonite

BL
Venusaur
Blastoise
Raichu
Nidoqueen
Nidoking
Ninetales
Golduck
Tentacruel
Golem
Muk
Dodrio
Hitmonlee
Hitmonchan
Kangashkan
Scyther
Kabutops

What do you think about it? We must edit it and play only with them.

ED1: Magneton to Standard, but it loses his first aim, Skarmory. Butterfree could be annoying with Coumpoundeyes and Sleep Powder/Stun Powder.

 

[Maslada]

Butterfree standard? Magneton, the only (non psychic) resistor of psychic, BL?

 

[Surgo]

There is absolutely no reason for this to devolve into a tier list discussion. Stick to listing what's usable, don't try to put them in tiers.

 

[TSPhoenix]

Venusaur is easily useable due to far fewer pokes resisiting its types.

Cloyster's abysmal SpDef and fighting weaks make it hard to consider though, even in the absence of a many Nasty Plot users.

However for the most part that list covers most thing you'd consider using if winning was on your mind. I have to agree with Surgo about tiers though.

 

[husk]

The thing is not the existance of those moves in the movepool of RBY pokémon. The thing is how many of these outspeed Timid Alakazam, Gengar, and Starmie (barring each other, that is), pokémon with a diverse enough movepool to KO those carrying bug/ghost/dark moves thanks to Choice Specs and Life Orb.

They can't switch in as easily as they did in RBY which is a huge change. Similarly to the rby metagame paralysis is big. Para'ing their zam/gengar would be huge. Quite a few pokemon learn shadow ball which cleans up these three pretty well. Chansey takes the CS'ers easily I think and snorlax isn't doing too badly vs set up versions either. Not to mention with CG'ers it all comes down to prediction anyway. People would worry about using AG/CS Psychic (with zam or starmie) because it allows your opponent to bring in their Zam or Starmie for a pretty much free shot/ revenge kill. Further, if zam/gar can't ohko whatever they are up against they will most likely need to run as they can barely take a hit. I wasn't saying that Zam/starmie/gar aren't going to be very ou I was saying why don't you give it some thought instead of acting like you've played this metagame for years.

You can deny that the metagame would be ridiculously lopsided and unfun if you want, it won't stop it from being true.

"Though with the addition of CS and Alakazam's ch rate I'd say the metagame is fairly raped. Not to mention HP electrics."

I see my error in that sentence (rby ch rates wouldn't be part of this metagame), but I still typed it so I'd appreciate if you read it before replying.

 

[Dragontamer]

I think some very interesting things will happen. I'm interested in the UU or NU pokemon getting moved up a notch.

Hitmonchan gets a major boost with the disappearance of his modern replacements... Medicham, Heracross and so forth. Of course, now the reason fighting pokemon became cool disappears as well, as now Weavile, T-Tar and so forth no longer exist... so Fighting probably will become a type that no one uses at all.

And conversly, Psychic again reigns as the major threat. Unlike RBY however, Psychic types are weak to ghosts. So Gengar will take a stand.

Then without the appearance of Blissey, and only the weaker Chansey to replace it, special attacks will dominate. Probably not as much as when uber-amnesia was around, but I can't think of any really good special walls of that generation.

Anyway, I think that this will sum up the metagame:

1. Gyarados, Alakazam, Gengar.
2. Death to fighting types.
3. No more walls.

 

[Shiny Crobat]

I think this would be a fun idea. POkes like Jynx etc. would get more attention. The metagame would (I think) be even more offensive due to the lack of good walls. The faster pokes would own, but then again, we have CS or salac to counter them.

 

[Better_Sandw1ch]

Sucker Punch would likely increase in usage as an effective counter to Psychics (and the solitary ghost), most prominently Kazam/Gengar. Of course, the only SP users in RBY are Raticate, Dugtrio, Kangaskhan, Gengar, and Nidoking. Kangaskhan's Scrappy becomes almost negligible with only one ghost running around, and Parasect becomes the only user of Spore (lolol, even with less people likely to carry fire w/o steels). What I'm wondering is if Ice attacks would be carried as often, with only one 4X weak dragon running around. Of course, there would be only one pokemon in RBY (Magneton) that could resist Dragonite's Outrage, meaning some pokes might have to run Ice Shard to survive (which can only be learned by Dewgong, Cloyster, Lapras, and Articuno in RBY).

 

[Dragontamer]

Lapras... oh yeah, Lapras...

Probably the last good wall left. Not even a wall actually... more of a bulky water. With fighting dieing down, Lapras probably will see some use, especially with the major threat of Dragonite.

Also, the speed tiers will have to be redone. Only 4 pokemon are 130+ speed now (mewtwo included... so only 3 really) and only 10 others are above 100. With 8 pokemon on exactly 100 base speed.

And that includes NFE pokemon like Voltorb and Kadabra.

 

[StarWizard]

They can't switch in as easily as they did in RBY which is a huge change. Similarly to the rby metagame paralysis is big. Para'ing their zam/gengar would be huge. Quite a few pokemon learn shadow ball which cleans up these three pretty well. Chansey takes the CS'ers easily I think and snorlax isn't doing too badly vs set up versions either. Not to mention with CG'ers it all comes down to prediction anyway. People would worry about using AG/CS Psychic (with zam or starmie) because it allows your opponent to bring in their Zam or Starmie for a pretty much free shot/ revenge kill. Further, if zam/gar can't ohko whatever they are up against they will most likely need to run as they can barely take a hit. I wasn't saying that Zam/starmie/gar aren't going to be very ou I was saying why don't you give it some thought instead of acting like you've played this metagame for years.



"Though with the addition of CS and Alakazam's ch rate I'd say the metagame is fairly raped. Not to mention HP electrics."

I see my error in that sentence (rby ch rates wouldn't be part of this metagame), but I still typed it so I'd appreciate if you read it before replying.

I'm not acting like I've played this for years. Thanks for showing me there are indeed feasible counters, I should've remembered Crunch is now physical and in Snorlax movepool, which makes a good counter indeed. Also I never said you didn't mention Alakazam, I just said that this 1-149 metagame would be very lopsided and unfun, which you hadn't previously mentioned. I read everything you said before I replied, but unfortunately I can't read what you did not say, even if you intended to. I know I could've looked more into it before posting here for the first time, but not looking for a one on one endless discussion here, so I suggest we drop it while the waters are still warm.

Anyway, onto the actual thing, maybe it would be fun for a thematic tournament like the OT suggested. I can see Lapras being a really strong pokémon. It can take most electric types and Ice Beam the grassers (Vileplume, Exeggutor and Venusaur, mostly). Dugtrio is also a strong revenge killer. What about Sandslash for SR support?

 

[obi]

Yeah, I think you guys are really underestimating Dragonite here. You pretty much have to have Ice Shard or Choice Scarf Ice Punch or whatever t stop it after a Dragon Dance. Or use Cloyster, but that only lasts so long. I could see people using Dragon Dance, Outrage, Thunderbolt, Dragon Claw / Endure (with a Salac or Liechi) / one of many other moves. It could hold a pinch berry with Endure, Life Orb for general sweeping, or a Yache Berry to make even those Pokemon listed earlier have trouble.

 

[Dragontamer]

Ouch. Yache Berry Dragonite... that can cause some massive problems :-/

 

[GEPH]

Yeah, I think you guys are really underestimating Dragonite here. You pretty much have to have Ice Shard or Choice Scarf Ice Punch or whatever t stop it after a Dragon Dance. Or use Cloyster, but that only lasts so long. I could see people using Dragon Dance, Outrage, Thunderbolt, Dragon Claw / Endure (with a Salac or Liechi) / one of many other moves. It could hold a pinch berry with Endure, Life Orb for general sweeping, or a Yache Berry to make even those Pokemon listed earlier have trouble.

HP Ice Jolteon was my first guess, but without +Spd nature or EVs it still gets outsped by Dragonite after a Dragon Dance. But, if I recall correctly, Dragonite's problem in RBY is that its movepool was... hard to take advantage of, I guess (high Atk stat, but few moves that ran off of Atk at that time - unSTAB Hyper Beam, ??). Now, though, it seems like it'd be a much more viable option like Obi says, especially after a speed boost from Dragon Dance.
It's been said already, but I suppose Alakazam should be a standard on almost any team.

 

[Great Sage]

Trust, what discredits you entirely is that you put Butterfree in standard; it's shit even in such a limited environment. I would miss the Dark types, though.

 

[matg1002]

Jolteon's a lead destroyer. Tbolt takes care of a lead starmie or gyara (who might try to outspeed non-choice scarfed psychics right away with dd), shadowball takes care of gengar/alakazam openings, and twave takes care of any other speedy guys that could give you a problem. If you're nervous about csers, throw a cs on jolteon as well. That base 130 speed will really help against kazam/starmie/gengar. IDK what to do about a dugtrio tho.

 

[GEPH]

Furthermore, we will use again Moltres and Articuno!, the forgotten birds...

I'd guess that would in part depend on how prevalent Rock-type moves would be. None of the possible Stealth Rock users jumps out at me (in the way that a Pokemon like Skarmory does), but I imagine that could stop them quickly.

 

[Deck Knight]

The way to stop Kazam is the same as in RBY, just chuck Chansey at it. Kazam has to run from Crunch Aerodactyl

With no Sandstream, Endure/Flail Dodrio @ Salac rapes mightily. Take out their Golem/Rhydon/Aero and get Gengar down to about 70%and watch the pain.

Extremespeed Arcanine deals with Kazam admirably, with CB often OHKO'ing.

Choice Scarf pokemon also deal with Kazam.

 

[Dragontamer]

I'd guess that would in part depend on how prevalent Rock-type moves would be. None of the possible Stealth Rock users jumps out at me (in the way that a Pokemon like Skarmory does), but I imagine that could stop them quickly.

Sandslash might have a chance. 75/110/55 defenses make it able to take attacks from the physical end... while Nidoqueen has 90/87/85 defenses.

Clefable with 95/73/90 defenses can Stealth Rock as well as provide wish support.

On the support side of things, Toxic Spikes threats (aka: Guts) are now gone except for Machamp... who is easily taken care of by the obligatory Alakazam. This metagame looks like Toxic Spikes are a much better idea.