(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon

[QuentinQuonce]

Speaking of Pokémon 151...
View attachment 559358
Anyone else think Gen II Pokémon tend to get shafted when it comes to "throwback" sets and games? Johto was nostalgic to many people after all.

Absolutely always thought this. Still annoyed that USUM didn't introduce a bunch of Alolan forms for Johto species like a lot of people expected they would. And that we never got a Let's Go Johto. And that the anime didn't bother going back to Johto like they did for Kanto. And that they never did anything with the GS Ball... sorry, what were we talking about?

 

[AztecCroc]

Absolutely always thought this. Still annoyed that USUM didn't introduce a bunch of Alolan forms for Johto species like a lot of people expected they would. And that we never got a Let's Go Johto. And that the anime didn't bother going back to Johto like they did for Kanto. And that they never did anything with the GS Ball... sorry, what were we talking about?

VC Crystal actually made the GS ball obtainable.

 

[R_N]

VC Crystal actually made the GS ball obtainable.

I feel certain they were talking about the anime with that GS Ball mention

 

[pika pal]

I think Johto has that problem in part because of all the generations, it feels the least standalone: the region is literally joined to Kanto at the hip, with a good dozen or more Pokemon that are intrinsically linked to Kanto by an evolutionary line and thus hard to reference without bringing it in somehow. Johto essentially serves as an extension of Kanto moreso than its own region, to the extent I would see a "modern day" release of Gen 2 being the Expansion Pass for that game rather than a standalone region, ala IoA/CT and Kitakami/Blueberry in Gens 8 and 9.

Of its 100 Pokemon, 18 are tied to Kanto families, 5 are Legendaries, and then 9 are the Starters, so literally 1/3 of its dex isn't viable as standalone Johto-specific references. This is on top of later Gens tying many remaining Pokemon into Cross Gen evos like Mamoswine, Honchkrow, and Weavile. Johto's Pokedex simply has the least members that can be marketed as "Johto" specifically rather than blending into the greater franchise roster, on top of its Big Brother's Shadow and the usual "sequel never beats the original" syndrome for said nostalgia.

 

[Magcargo]

I think Johto has that problem in part because of all the generations, it feels the least standalone: the region is literally joined to Kanto at the hip, with a good dozen or more Pokemon that are intrinsically linked to Kanto by an evolutionary line and thus hard to reference without bringing it in somehow. Johto essentially serves as an extension of Kanto moreso than its own region, to the extent I would see a "modern day" release of Gen 2 being the Expansion Pass for that game rather than a standalone region, ala IoA/CT and Kitakami/Blueberry in Gens 8 and 9.

Of its 100 Pokemon, 18 are tied to Kanto families, 5 are Legendaries, and then 9 are the Starters, so literally 1/3 of its dex isn't viable as standalone Johto-specific references. This is on top of later Gens tying many remaining Pokemon into Cross Gen evos like Mamoswine, Honchkrow, and Weavile. Johto's Pokedex simply has the least members that can be marketed as "Johto" specifically rather than blending into the greater franchise roster, on top of its Big Brother's Shadow and the usual "sequel never beats the original" syndrome for said nostalgia.

Whats worse is that several Johto Pokemon can't even be found in Johto lmao. The only place to find mons like Slugma, Murkrow, and Misdrevus is Kanto.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

I feel certain they were talking about the anime with that GS Ball mention

Correct

VC Crystal actually made the GS ball obtainable.

Did it? Must have missed that.

 

[R_N]

Correct



Did it? Must have missed that.

It was the big thing about it, beat the E4 and the event activates once you go back to the Goldnerod Pokemon center.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

It was the big thing about it, beat the E4 and the event activates once you go back to the Goldnerod Pokemon center.

I thought the sarcasm was implied, but wow you really never can be sure online...

 

[Castersvarog]

I think Johto has that problem in part because of all the generations, it feels the least standalone: the region is literally joined to Kanto at the hip, with a good dozen or more Pokemon that are intrinsically linked to Kanto by an evolutionary line and thus hard to reference without bringing it in somehow. Johto essentially serves as an extension of Kanto moreso than its own region, to the extent I would see a "modern day" release of Gen 2 being the Expansion Pass for that game rather than a standalone region, ala IoA/CT and Kitakami/Blueberry in Gens 8 and 9.

Of its 100 Pokemon, 18 are tied to Kanto families, 5 are Legendaries, and then 9 are the Starters, so literally 1/3 of its dex isn't viable as standalone Johto-specific references. This is on top of later Gens tying many remaining Pokemon into Cross Gen evos like Mamoswine, Honchkrow, and Weavile. Johto's Pokedex simply has the least members that can be marketed as "Johto" specifically rather than blending into the greater franchise roster, on top of its Big Brother's Shadow and the usual "sequel never beats the original" syndrome for said nostalgia.

Compounding this is how the Johto gym leaders barely use Johto Mons. We’ve discussed this a lot on the worst boss fight thread, but like, Falkner doesn’t even use Hoothoot/Noctowl instead of Pidgey/Pidgeotto, Morty doesn’t use Misdreavus, Chuck doesn’t have Hitmontop, etc.

 

[R_N]

I thought the sarcasm was implied, but wow you really never can be sure online...

lmao i forgot you had a whole challenge involving it and everything

 

[QuentinQuonce]

I think Johto has that problem in part because of all the generations, it feels the least standalone: the region is literally joined to Kanto at the hip, with a good dozen or more Pokemon that are intrinsically linked to Kanto by an evolutionary line and thus hard to reference without bringing it in somehow. Johto essentially serves as an extension of Kanto moreso than its own region, to the extent I would see a "modern day" release of Gen 2 being the Expansion Pass for that game rather than a standalone region, ala IoA/CT and Kitakami/Blueberry in Gens 8 and 9.

Of its 100 Pokemon, 18 are tied to Kanto families, 5 are Legendaries, and then 9 are the Starters, so literally 1/3 of its dex isn't viable as standalone Johto-specific references. This is on top of later Gens tying many remaining Pokemon into Cross Gen evos like Mamoswine, Honchkrow, and Weavile. Johto's Pokedex simply has the least members that can be marketed as "Johto" specifically rather than blending into the greater franchise roster, on top of its Big Brother's Shadow and the usual "sequel never beats the original" syndrome for said nostalgia.

This is funny though, because I literally got into the games when Johto was a thing, so for me "the original 151" has never really been a thing; moreso "the original 251". I can't be the only one with that mindset and yet Game Freak insists on Kanto nostalgia rather than broader "anything older than X years" nostalgia. I mean RS are 20 years old this year for god's sake.

And yeah you could say the same for anyone who started after Kanto ("the original 386", "the original 493" etc) but Johto and Kanto being so interlinked makes them stick together more than other gens. The Hoenn games were a literal soft reboot so it's unlikely that someone who started with RS would remember, say, Victreebel with great nostalgia in the way someone who started with GS might.

 

[Ironmage]

This is funny though, because I literally got into the games when Johto was a thing, so for me "the original 151" has never really been a thing; moreso "the original 251". I can't be the only one with that mindset and yet Game Freak insists on Kanto nostalgia rather than broader "anything older than X years" nostalgia. I mean RS are 20 years old this year for god's sake.

And yeah you could say the same for anyone who started after Kanto ("the original 386", "the original 493" etc) but Johto and Kanto being so interlinked makes them stick together more than other gens. The Hoenn games were a literal soft reboot so it's unlikely that someone who started with RS would remember, say, Victreebel with great nostalgia in the way someone who started with GS might.

I had the interesting thing of starting with MD Blue, so it very much was 'the original 386.' Mons that stuck in my mind from my first experiences of the games include Aron, Zapdos, Jolteon, Mudkip, and Qwilfish.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

I had the interesting thing of starting with MD Blue, so it very much was 'the original 386.' Mons that stuck in my mind from my first experiences of the games include Aron, Zapdos, Jolteon, Mudkip, and Qwilfish.

Okay damn that's quite a niche experience

 

[Bakugames]

I started with emerald but I have more connection to alola, so I don't have the perception of "the original x number". I got into the series when they hit the 800 mark, so you kinda stop seeing them as your original nostalgia and just part of the franchise you got into. I do have the natural bias for hoenn and alolan pokemon though.

I think the reason they don't cater that much for johto is that there's just more oldheads who only interact with gen 1 content, and a lot of johto fans tend to also be into some parts of gen 1 since johto is kanto lite LOL

 

[Sonikku A]

I had the interesting thing of starting with MD Blue, so it very much was 'the original 386.' Mons that stuck in my mind from my first experiences of the games include Aron, Zapdos, Jolteon, Mudkip, and Qwilfish.

Although my first game is Stadium, I was only 3 for that, not to mention the composite cable was bootlegged and broke fast. My first legit Pkmn game is BRT similarly

 

[Fracterra]

I think Johto has that problem in part because of all the generations, it feels the least standalone: the region is literally joined to Kanto at the hip, with a good dozen or more Pokemon that are intrinsically linked to Kanto by an evolutionary line and thus hard to reference without bringing it in somehow. Johto essentially serves as an extension of Kanto moreso than its own region, to the extent I would see a "modern day" release of Gen 2 being the Expansion Pass for that game rather than a standalone region, ala IoA/CT and Kitakami/Blueberry in Gens 8 and 9.

Of its 100 Pokemon, 18 are tied to Kanto families, 5 are Legendaries, and then 9 are the Starters, so literally 1/3 of its dex isn't viable as standalone Johto-specific references. This is on top of later Gens tying many remaining Pokemon into Cross Gen evos like Mamoswine, Honchkrow, and Weavile. Johto's Pokedex simply has the least members that can be marketed as "Johto" specifically rather than blending into the greater franchise roster, on top of its Big Brother's Shadow and the usual "sequel never beats the original" syndrome for said nostalgia.

Yeah, at least a few Pokémon have gotten evolutions, and I forgot Scizor was a Johtomon for a bit their.

 

[ZB7]

For whatever reason, there are 4* fully evolved Ground type Pokémon that don’t learn Stone Edge: Seismitoad, Toedscruel, Sandy Shocks and… Excadrill. Seismitoad can live without it, it had (at least in SwSh) a pretty colorful move pool and Stone Edge wasn’t ever really used. Toedscruel very obviously based off of stats doesn’t need it, but more options aren’t bad. Same with Shocks, which wouldn’t use it but could with its useable base 81 attack stat. Excadrill, however, has been dealing with Rock Slide’s fairly weak base power of 75 for 4 generations now, for no discernible reason. It wouldn’t necessarily kill for Stone Edge, but the move’s 25 base power increase as well as heightened critical hit chance could really make a difference, in spite of a 10% accuracy reduction. It’s a discrepancy that will always bother me.

*Not including Wormadam Sandy Cloak, Arceus Ground and Silvally Ground.

 

[Fracterra]

For whatever reason, there are 4* fully evolved Ground type Pokémon that don’t learn Stone Edge: Seismitoad, Toedscruel, Sandy Shocks and… Excadrill. Seismitoad can live without it, it had (at least in SwSh) a pretty colorful move pool and Stone Edge wasn’t ever really used. Toedscruel very obviously based off of stats doesn’t need it, but more options aren’t bad. Same with Shocks, which wouldn’t use it but could with its useable base 81 attack stat. Excadrill, however, has been dealing with Rock Slide’s fairly weak base power of 75 for 4 generations now, for no discernible reason. It wouldn’t necessarily kill for Stone Edge, but the move’s 25 base power increase as well as heightened critical hit chance could really make a difference, in spite of a 10% accuracy reduction. It’s a discrepancy that will always bother me.

*Not including Wormadam Sandy Cloak, Arceus Ground and Silvally Ground.

Yeah, give Excadrill Rock Blast at least

 

[Coronis]

For whatever reason, there are 4* fully evolved Ground type Pokémon that don’t learn Stone Edge: Seismitoad, Toedscruel, Sandy Shocks and… Excadrill. Seismitoad can live without it, it had (at least in SwSh) a pretty colorful move pool and Stone Edge wasn’t ever really used. Toedscruel very obviously based off of stats doesn’t need it, but more options aren’t bad. Same with Shocks, which wouldn’t use it but could with its useable base 81 attack stat. Excadrill, however, has been dealing with Rock Slide’s fairly weak base power of 75 for 4 generations now, for no discernible reason. It wouldn’t necessarily kill for Stone Edge, but the move’s 25 base power increase as well as heightened critical hit chance could really make a difference, in spite of a 10% accuracy reduction. It’s a discrepancy that will always bother me.

*Not including Wormadam Sandy Cloak, Arceus Ground and Silvally Ground.

In general GF don’t make design decisions based on competitive (which I fully support). In hindsight I believe this is one of the few cases where they did (such as DD Garchomp which still breaks my heart). BW Excadrill iirc was everywhere (its been a while) of course now Stone Edge isn’t that big of a deal for it but the extra damage would’ve been even worse back then. Besides it does have Rock Slide which is better in doubles (I think? I actually have little to no idea about Doubles/VGC - blame GF for not including it enough in the games).

 

[misterdarvus]

For whatever reason, there are 4* fully evolved Ground type Pokémon that don’t learn Stone Edge: Seismitoad, Toedscruel, Sandy Shocks and… Excadrill.
Excadrill, however, has been dealing with Rock Slide’s fairly weak base power of 75 for 4 generations now, for no discernible reason. It wouldn’t necessarily kill for Stone Edge, but the move’s 25 base power increase as well as heightened critical hit chance could really make a difference, in spite of a 10% accuracy reduction. It’s a discrepancy that will always bother me.

*Not including Wormadam Sandy Cloak, Arceus Ground and Silvally Ground.

I think there's legimate balancing notes from GF team to not give Excadrill Stone Edge, just like how Garchomp never permitted to get Dragon Dance.

It fascinate me that there's a team in GF that balance the moves and abilities and so on. I think Morimoto is the head of this. There's indeed some leaked commentary when they balancing Sun Moon such as removing Gengar's levitate and so on. I believe they keeps notes like this somewhere in their office

 

[ZB7]

My problem is exactly what you described however - nothing uses Stone Edge over Rock Slide in doubles - Excadrill loves Rock Slide anyway paired with Sand Rush. It’s more about me not understanding why of all ground types, why does Excadrill not learn it. It has nothing to do with the typing, evidenced by Steelix, Stunfisk-G, and Iron Treads. Like I said, it wouldn’t kill for it, but it would be nice. I appreciate the insight though.

(side note: does anyone else find it funny that this thread has 340~ more pages than the 'Little Things You Like About Pokémon' thread? Guess we all got dirty laundry to air.)

 

[Worldie]

Besides it does have Rock Slide which is better in doubles (I think? I actually have little to no idea about Doubles/VGC - blame GF for not including it enough in the games).

Let's say VGC players love the move

(Incidentally stab rock slide is one of the main reasons for which H-Arcanine is valued this high currently in VGC)

 

[pika pal]

Gamefreak's odd "asymmetrical only slightly" design on some of the Legendaries is annoying me on a very mild level, strictly in terms of the concept whether or not it impacts viability. Some of these instances go back a bit but feel like they've appeared more frequently since the 3DS era

• Groudon and Kyogre is the most infamous one, with the mirrored weathers benefitting Kyogre more of the respective users and Groudon still a leg-down even if Sun is up. The primals kind of swing this the opposite way, with Groudon gaining a 2nd type and an immunity from the form while Kyogre only gains stats and an immunity to something it already ate fine.
• Palkia and Dialga, strictly because Dialga's Steel-typing makes it neutral/resistant to both Palkia's STABs, while Palkia resists Steel but remains weak to Dragon. This one makes it a harder sell to me when media wants them to go up against each other as rivals: even in something like PLA, I see runs with Palkia vs Dialga-O end in the former fainting way sooner than the reverse scenario.
• Xerneas and Yveltal get identical stats but their typing gives advantage Xerneas. The main reason I find this odd is because if not a Life-Death duality, Life winning feels kind of funny to me with the weirdly pessimistic/nihilistic take on Kalos I get out of snippets of the Manga
• Zacian and Zamazenta. I don't think this one needs explaining on Balance, but I also find Zamazenta's building as a Defensive Mon bizarre, given it doesn't have any recovery and most of its kit is an ATK based mon that results in a worse version of Zacian. Behemoth Bash should have been DEF scaling like Body Press, which it ALSO didn't get despite being a defense based Pokemon in the Gen introducing the move with a body-slam fighting style vs Zacian carrying a weapon. The Typing I will give some credit for, because at least in Crowned form, Zacian and Zamazenta are both Neutral to each others' Dual STABs in a metaphorical "Unstoppable Force meets Immovable Object" idea, even if other mechanics don't quite bear it out as such.
• Koraidon and Miraidon. These two are some of my favorite Legendaries design-wise in a while, but my one issue is that their Field effects kind of go back to the Kyogre-Groudon issue in a more mild sense, since Miraidon and its Signature move matches its own Terrain but Koraidon has to use non-STAB coverage to benefit from Sun beyond the generic Orichalcum Pulse boost. Funnily enough the two still seem to have parity in viability overall because of their ridiculously min-maxed stat builds, but this does strike me, especially because in that sense it highlights how... "obvious" their secondary typings feel (Fighting = Primal Aggression, Electric = Machinery but not using Steel) and one just working better than the other with it causing them to be equally useful but way less comparable (Miraidon focuses on nuking or boosting, while Koraidon is a speed-demon that uses coverage to avoid resistant Walling)

 

[KalosianPorygon]

I had no idea Excadrill wasn't ever able to use Stone Edge. But then again it didn't need it back in 5th Gen Smogon when it was banned.
Same with Garchomp: never got Dragon Dance, still Uber-tier in the 4th Generation.
Pokémon don't need the best possible moves to be top-tier threats. For a recent example, Iron Valiant doesn't have Play Rough, yet it is still an SV OU threat with viable Physical sets.
If anything, I'd like to see more viable Pokémon that don't have the expected high-BP STAB move and may be forced to use a less powerful alternative instead. We don't need Stone Edge/Dragon Dance/Play Rough on every strong Physical Pokémon.

 

[QuentinQuonce]

Gamefreak's odd "asymmetrical only slightly" design on some of the Legendaries is annoying me on a very mild level, strictly in terms of the concept whether or not it impacts viability. Some of these instances go back a bit but feel like they've appeared more frequently since the 3DS era

• Groudon and Kyogre is the most infamous one, with the mirrored weathers benefitting Kyogre more of the respective users and Groudon still a leg-down even if Sun is up. The primals kind of swing this the opposite way, with Groudon gaining a 2nd type and an immunity from the form while Kyogre only gains stats and an immunity to something it already ate fine.
• Palkia and Dialga, strictly because Dialga's Steel-typing makes it neutral/resistant to both Palkia's STABs, while Palkia resists Steel but remains weak to Dragon. This one makes it a harder sell to me when media wants them to go up against each other as rivals: even in something like PLA, I see runs with Palkia vs Dialga-O end in the former fainting way sooner than the reverse scenario.
• Xerneas and Yveltal get identical stats but their typing gives advantage Xerneas. The main reason I find this odd is because if not a Life-Death duality, Life winning feels kind of funny to me with the weirdly pessimistic/nihilistic take on Kalos I get out of snippets of the Manga
• Zacian and Zamazenta. I don't think this one needs explaining on Balance, but I also find Zamazenta's building as a Defensive Mon bizarre, given it doesn't have any recovery and most of its kit is an ATK based mon that results in a worse version of Zacian. Behemoth Bash should have been DEF scaling like Body Press, which it ALSO didn't get despite being a defense based Pokemon in the Gen introducing the move with a body-slam fighting style vs Zacian carrying a weapon. The Typing I will give some credit for, because at least in Crowned form, Zacian and Zamazenta are both Neutral to each others' Dual STABs in a metaphorical "Unstoppable Force meets Immovable Object" idea, even if other mechanics don't quite bear it out as such.
• Koraidon and Miraidon. These two are some of my favorite Legendaries design-wise in a while, but my one issue is that their Field effects kind of go back to the Kyogre-Groudon issue in a more mild sense, since Miraidon and its Signature move matches its own Terrain but Koraidon has to use non-STAB coverage to benefit from Sun beyond the generic Orichalcum Pulse boost. Funnily enough the two still seem to have parity in viability overall because of their ridiculously min-maxed stat builds, but this does strike me, especially because in that sense it highlights how... "obvious" their secondary typings feel (Fighting = Primal Aggression, Electric = Machinery but not using Steel) and one just working better than the other with it causing them to be equally useful but way less comparable (Miraidon focuses on nuking or boosting, while Koraidon is a speed-demon that uses coverage to avoid resistant Walling)

I'm still amused by Zygarde allegedly being a counter to Xerneas and Yveltal despite the fact that even in Complete Forme it's still no match for either one of them.

But yes the asymmetry is weird for some of these. Kyogre having the advantage over Groudon makes a sort of sense because the land is bigger than the sea; Groudon is slower so would typically have its weather activate last in a straight battle, but as you say Kyogre still pretty much has the edge over it. So that one I can live with, even though it's another reason why Kyogre would have made a lot of sense going part-Electric in Primal Form.

Dialga and Palkia are a weird duo though; they don't really have that much in common besides "powerful Dragon-type". Ironically the one time they actually do fight in the 12th movie Dialga gets the upper hand and wounds Palkia so that supports the idea that Dialga is the better half.