Announcement LC Suspect - Behind the Veil

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jake

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Our next suspect will be Vulpix-Alola. Vulpix-Alola sits at a solid 17 Speed and has good neutral coverage on the whole tier between Freeze Dry and Moonblast, but the critical factor of Vulpix-Alola is its support capabilities. Vulpix-Alola has a fantastic support attack in Aurora Veil, which sets both Reflect and Light Screen as long as Hail is active. Vulpix-Alola's good Speed and Snow Warning ability makes it plausible set up Aurora Veil every game, and coupled with some of the best boosting Pokemon in LC such as Belly Drum Zigzagoon and Nasty Plot Vullaby, the council believes Vulpix-Alola may be too overbearing for the tier to handle.


The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE is fine.

GXEminimum games
8050
80.249
80.448
80.647
80.846
8145
81.244
81.443
81.642
81.841
8240
82.239
82.438
82.637
82.836
8335
83.234
83.433
83.632
83.831
8430

For this suspect test, we will be using the regular LC ladder, so you must create a new account that begins with LCVS to qualify. When you have reached the requirements, click here to post your proof. The suspect will end on March 6th, 11:59 PM EST.

When posting in this thread, please keep in mind these rules:
1. No one liners or uninformed posts.
2. No discussion on other potential suspects or the suspect process.
3. Be respectful.

Your post will be deleted and possibly infracted if you fail to follow them.
 
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Corporal Levi

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I am currently leaning pro-ban.

Alolan Vulpix generally has the speed tier to be able to get veils up safely, but of course isn't overbearing on its own. The main thing veils does is that it renders abusers dramatically more difficult to check, which is most important when it comes to setup sweepers that can threaten to win the game on their own; not only are they immediately threatening, but they also make it much more difficult to get around veils by simply stalling it out. Some of the most prominent veil abusers include Nasty Plot Spritzee, Nasty Plot Vullaby, Shellder, Swords Dance Drilbur, Zigzagoon, Swords Dance/Dragon Dance Corphish, and Scraggy.

Have a look at how their checks change behind veils. Spritzee now avoids 3HKOs from almost everything in the metagame, allowing it to set up multiple Nasty Plots. Vullaby and Rufflet become capable of comfortably 1v1ing every mon in the metagame. In general, OHKOing a mon becomes out of the question; revenge-killing something because you can normally beat it 1v1 is almost impossible, and so veils basically takes soft checks out of the equation. This means that to check something behind veils, you have to wall it (with Brick Break Pawniard being a minor exception). What needs to be considered here is that
a) all of these sets are individually threatening, and there are very few defensive answers that can withstand more than one of them - they easily break generic defensive cores for each other if afforded the opportunity to set up, which veils provides, potentially more than once.
b) their dedicated checks can be very different from each other; finding the role compression needed to check all of them on a single team is a daunting task.

There are two ways to deal with veil abusers:

1. A blanket response to veils. This can be through Brick Break users (usually Pawniard), Defog users (usually Timburr), and fast Taunt users (which, even if they don't shut down Aurora Veil, may be able to prevent a sweeper from setting up).

None of these are terrifically promising. Outside of Pawniard, most Brick Break users both don't want to come in on Vulpix-Alola, and overall find the move to be almost completely suboptimal except for veils. Defog users generally don't actually win against Vulpix-A except for Timburr (and Farfetch'd, which can't safely switch in), who is fairly easy to wear down and takes a good amount from Vulpix-A's attacking moves. Both Brick Break and Defog are a free invitation for certain trappers and abusers to come in; this is essentially a guarantee, without the usual options of doubling or simply using a strong enough offensive attack, because Aurora Veil needs to be removed immediately or other abusers might become unanswerable depending on the matchup. Taunt users are generally unreliable as they don't deal with a target attacking instead of setting up, and Vulpix-A is faster than most Taunt users, so Taunt isn't actually enough to keep Aurora Veil itself off the field.

With that being said, Vulpix-A can be easy to wear down too. These counterplay options may not be reliable, but there's enough so that as long as a team is otherwise sufficiently prepared for the veil abusers, these options should only allow veils to be moderately effective at reducing an abuser's checks instead of massively so.

2. Checking veils directly. Veils makes its abusers drastically more difficult to check, but it doesn't make them completely uncounterable (outside of Vullaby and Rufflet, who suffer from being more easily worn down and revenge-killed than usual). Spritzee still can't break past Ferroseed, Corphish is still walled by Iron Defense Mareanie, and Shellder/Zigzagoon still lose to (Brick Break) Pawniard with some chip.

It's easy to see why this isn't sufficient at all from a teambuilding perspective. Since veils support basically negates soft checks, you have to rely on hard checks. There are a lot of good veil abusers; veils reducing their answers to in many cases just a handful makes it almost impossible to be able to deal with them all, on top of the rest of the metagame that you still have to prepare for. There will always be a veils team with a sweeper that you don't have an answer to.

I'm not comfortable saying that veils teams are broken in the sense that they're too strong. It does skew building to a significant degree - pre-home teams will probably lose to veil teams - but at the same time, it's an entire archetype. Vulpix-A might require more dedicated prep than any other individual mon, even Cutiefly and Vullaby, but unlike Cutiefly and Vullaby, its teammates are quite limited if they want to fully take advantage of its strengths. I do think that an argument for Vulpix-A being broken on the grounds of it being too overcentralizing is available, but I'll leave it be for now.

However, it's probably safe to say that veils is still a top tier strategy. A good veils team is every bit as strong as a good non-veils teams, even when the non-veils teams are broadly and reasonably prepped for veils. This is important because I think veils is banworthy on the grounds of being uncompetitive; veils being a perfectly viable strategy means that it's more akin to, say, SM Baton Pass, than it is to the unviable Swagger in terms of being relevant enough to deal with.

As the tiering policy states:

II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.
  • This can be matchup related; think the determination that Baton Pass took the battling skill aspect out of the player's hands and made it overwhelmingly a team matchup issue, where even the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough.
I wouldn't say veils is quite as effective at forcing uncompetitive matchup fishes as Baton Pass was as it's a lot less versatile, but it certainly does so to a much greater degree than the next biggest culprit we currently have in webs. Web-immune revenge-killers can still revenge-kill a threat; the closest equivalent for veils is Infiltrator, which isn't really a thing because of its distribution. Furthermore, almost every defensive mon that could wall a threat before webs was up can continue to do so after webs is set. Veils actually affects how difficult a mon is to kill, and so reduces defensive checks just as much as it reduces offensive ones. I do not believe that webs forces matchup concerns to a significantly greater degree than other high tier offensive strategies. Of course, this isn't to say that veils is better than webs, as webs has its obvious advantage in only needing to be set once, and so while it reduces the answers for the other mons on Cutiefly's team to a lesser degree than veils does, it's much more consistent and less dependent on matchup to do so.

I claimed earlier that there will always be a veils team with a sweeper that you don't have an answer to, and this is where it comes into play. A veils team will have significant just-win matchups against otherwise solid teams - teams where the opponent lacks checks to the right abusers when afforded the extra setup opportunities from Aurora Veil - and it will have much more than any other available archetype. These might be balanced by various neutral matchups, where the opposing team has the right blanket responses paired with decent checks to create opportunities for playmaking on both sides, as well as negative matchups, where the opposing team has hard checks to all of the veils team's abusers so that overall, the veils team doesn't win more often than non-veils teams. However, I'm arguing on the basis of uncompetitiveness, and I think the number of just-win matchups that veils forces is far beyond any comparably viable archetypes.

Veils creates too many matchups where the opposing side has no real counterplay, and I believe that LC would be better without it.
 

Geodude6

Look at my shiny CT!
It's pretty clear that Veil is the issue, and not Vulpix in its entirety. Is it reasonable to ban Aurora Veil, instead of Vulpix?
 

ghost

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It's pretty clear that Veil is the issue, and not Vulpix in its entirety. Is it reasonable to ban Aurora Veil, instead of Vulpix?
It's preferred in Smogon tiering policy to avoid complex bans, which is what this would be. There's no chance Veils on Vanillite is broken - it's pretty inferior to running dual screens on a better mon - so the problem is pretty explicitly Veils on A-Vulpix, which is fast enough to comfortable set Veils against a lot of mons and brings its own hail to do so easily. Banning A-Vulpix from using Veils would constitute a complex ban that's ultimately not worth it.

I'm leaning pro-ban pretty firmly right now - Levi lays out the case pretty well, and I will reiterate the points I see as problematic.

1. Veils makes it too difficult to check a wide variety of sweepers. NP Vullaby is almost certainly the most unstoppable sweeper behind Veils because of how difficult it is to kill it, but even if you prep out for NP Vullaby thoroughly, there are many other sweepers the Veils player can bring that can all snowball into overwhelming threats - Shellder, Zigzagoon, whatever. You will never have checks to everything your opponent can bring that still function as checks through Veils, and even if you do, games devolve into positioning wars that are decided in a matter of a few turns.

2. Veils are overcentralizing. While you can certainly build to beat and deny Veils - Brick Break Pawniard, Defog Timburr, and Diglett all do this pretty well - you're likely in a lot of trouble if you don't bring one or two of these mons. It's really just not responsible to even bring Defog Vullaby in this meta because it cannot 1v1 or switch into A-Vulpix and loses to a lot of set-up sweepers. I don't believe it's healthy for the metagame to have so many mons that are more or less mandatory.
 
I am on the do not ban side.

Why?
Alola vulpix is not as consistent as cutiefly in performing the function to reduce damage taken and/or allow a set up sweeper to defeat your opponent.

Let's compare the two noting some important features of each:
Cutiefly - 19 speed, fairy typing, reflect+light screen, sticky web
Alola vulpix - 17 speed, ice typing, aurora veil

Cutiefly has better speed and will be involved in less speed ties, this is self-explanatory. Cutiefly has better typing vs the most common defoggers and brick break pawniard as moonblast will deal substantially more damage than blizzard. A priority move such as mach punch will do substantially less damage to Cutiefly than it would to Alola Vulpix. Cutiefly will require 1 more turn than Alola vulpix to set up screens. Cutiefly will require 1 more turn to set up a screen and webs.

When breaking it down to pretty simple terms which is what I did above, I think a lot of people would say Alola Vulpix is superior to Cutiefly only because it takes 1 less turn to set up a move to reduce damage from both physical and special attacks.

Here's why I don't care: sticky web and 1 screen is a better alternative to setting up aurora veil.

Sticky web will last as long as defog is not used or a rapid spinner does not spin. This means that for the rest of the game, threats to your set up sweepers will be moving slower. If they are OHKO'd by a move, they are now a non-factor in the game.

So what do you need for your set up sweeper to set up? You need your opponent to do half damage with their attack.

If I am a cutiefly setting up webs + screen on an onix, I will use reflect and sticky web / vice versa depending on the opposing team.
If I am using a cutiefly setting up webs on a spritzee, I will use light screen / sticky web.

If they stall or swap to a defogger, you can also spam moonblast which is super effective against common defoggers and wait till your cutiefly dies for a safe set up turn vs a non-defogger.

If you do this you are going to get 2 sweepers up at the very least with webs/screens in tact. Your first one kills any defogger keeping them from not being used. Your second one (if it can't kill the defogger due to outspeeding only) will set up ( or have already set up) on the turn they use defog. Just make sure this 2nd sweeper is not gonna be OHKO'd.

If your sweepers are not able to OHKO a vast amount of viable physical and special attackers, you need to rethink your team. Sure getting 2 screens up + webs is optimal, but your hyper offensive team should be able to sweep once your set up stage is complete.


tl;dr webs are permanent, screens are not. you only need the screen for the type of attack your opponent does to set up. you don't need both types of screens.

Maybe only cutiefly is banworthy. Maybe alola vulpix is still ban worthy in addition to cutiefly. Maybe neither are banworthy.

Just know cutiefly performs the role more efficiently than alola vulpix does. If alola vulpix is banned, cutiefly has to go as well.


[Edit: people see the cutiefly screens set as not banworthy. Therefore, if the apix aurora veil set is weaker than the cutiefly screens set, it should be kept and not banned.]

[Edit2: I do not see the cutiefly screens set alone as banworthy. Therefore, I am do not ban for alola vulpix.]

(I am not the best at conveying my thoughts into words on this site. If you have problems with this, try out screens + web cutiefly yourself with a solid sample size [you must get used to this playstyle] so you can come to your own conclusion with this comparison.)
 
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