ITT: We Discuss our Religious Backgrounds/Ideas

[billymills]

Also, for Brain, Morm, and any other Athiests/Agnostics reading this, if there was physical evidence that proved the Bible, Qur'an, etc. was true, even if you didn't understand all of the theology, would you agree that it's true? mattj, Cartoons!, and any other religious believers reading this, if there was physical evidence that the Bible, Qur'an, etc. was wrong and that no god could possibly exist, would you change your beliefs? If the answer is no to either of those questions, what's the point of a debate? It won't change anything.

Yes I would definitely consider it. But obviously I'd get better grasp of the theology first.

Also debate is useful regardless of if any beliefs are changed. Even just among the posts by atheists/agnostics, I learn a good deal of arguments that I'd never really heard of and scientific knowledge I likely wouldn't have heard of (for instance when morm counters a creationist, that's always a good post). Religious and political debates rarely have a unique goal.

 

[ungulateman]

@Chubbs, the "Christians" you talked with that show such obvious racism do not reflect the views of most Christians. In fact, the Bible says that "There is neither Jew nor Gentile (Meaning any non-Jew), there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:28, NKJV)". Racism is NOT from the Bible. As for Jesus usually being white, that is unusual, maybe because midieval Roman Catholics (Also didn't follow the Bible very well) made all the famous stain-glass windows, paintings, etc.? It could also be so white people would be more comfortable with Him (Remember, racism was VERY common not that long ago), or because white typically represents purity. I don't know for sure, but those ideas are my best guesses.

Galatians 3:28 only applies to baptised Christians, though. The Bible is fairly active at insulting and encouraging action against non-believers ("The fool sayeth in his heart, there is no God"? Really? How mature, you Bible writers, you). The there's the whole Canaan business, which is a front for opressing whoever the hell Christians want by declaring them descendants of Canaan.

 

[mattj]

Under most interpretations of the terms, omniscience and free will rule each other out. Knowledge implies determination: you cannot know what is not determined. Free will implies non-determination: your actions are not determined until you act. Thus you can have one or the other, or neither, but not both.

Well put. I don't see how anyone could possibly disagree with this without completely ignoring logic.

According to the Bible this is what we generally call "free will":

God gives people the choice to follow his directions, or to not follow his directions.

Deuteronomy 30:19, etc
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

It's not God's will that anyone should go to Hell.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But some people will choose to do their own thing and certainly will go to Hell.

Revelation 20:12-15
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

God gives us a choice, and even allows us to choose things that are against his will.

According to the Bible, this is what we call "omniscience":

God knows everything we're gonna do because he knows us so incredibly well.

Psalm 139:4
[[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.]] O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known [me].
Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted [with] all my ways.
For [there is] not a word in my tongue, [but], lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.

As a simple example, I know my daughter loves bananas. So much so, that we have to keep them up in the cabinet or she'll eat every one of them. If I were to leave a banana out on the table before lunch tomorrow, and she would wake up in the morning and see it, I have no doubt whatsoever that she would peel it and eat it. I. Know. This. But at the same time, I would not have forced her to eat it, she would have chosen to. I just know her, and what she commonly does. Now, according to the Bible, God knows us in far more detail than I will ever know my daughter. In the same way, God can know what we are going to choose to do without forcing us to do it.

Exactly how does God's Omniscience imply determination? What God are you talking about? Not the God of the Bible.

 

[Brain]

And this is where you are missing the point. I'm not talking about Joe Schmoe who shows up on Sundays and Easters because his family was Catholic, so he is too. I'm talking about Christians, who make a conscious decision to follow Christ to the point that it shapes their lives. Yes, there are tons of churches in the US and it's easy for people to show up and sit in a pew if they want to. That. Doesn't. Make. Them. Bible. Believing. Christians. There's this one dude Jay that goes to our church that isn't a Christian, he just likes our music.

If you read more carefully what I wrote, you would see that I was not talking about Joe Schmoe, and that I am indeed talking about people who make a conscious decision to follow Christ. The point is, it is not because you follow Christ to the point that it shapes your life that you necessarily know God. To illustrate, consider the large number of Muslims who consciously decided to follow Islam, and who consider that it shaped their lives. It is impossible to deny that these people exist. If they are wrong, then you ought to consider that whatever it is that led them to falsely adopt Islam, could very well have led them to adopt Christianity instead. If their experience as Muslims is flawed, then their experience as Christians, by the same token, would also be flawed. That would be the case even if they were extremely devout Christians who view their religion as the best thing that ever happened to them.

I can :) God has omniscience, man has free will. Any problems with that?

Yeah and Jesus is a loaf of bread.

Also, for Brain, Morm, and any other Athiests/Agnostics reading this, if there was physical evidence that proved the Bible, Qur'an, etc. was true, even if you didn't understand all of the theology, would you agree that it's true?

I will believe whatever the evidence suggests to be true. However, there are some caveats. First of all, no evidence can resolve logical contradictions or semantic confusions: regardless of any evidence, free will as conventionally defined is incoherent (and certainly incompatible with omniscience). It is also impossible for God to define "objective" morality, because there can be no such thing. He can set a moral code for us to follow, and punishments for not following it, but that does not make such a code any less arbitrary than the usual rule of law.

In the same vein, it would not be because the Bible was proven to be historically accurate and the presence of God was made evident that I would buy the idea that he "loves us". Evidence that God exists would not wipe out the evidence that he's a douche. It is not because God was proven to exist that I would respect him. He would have to earn that respect, perhaps by explaining his plan and convincing us that it's great.

 

[Obsessed]

I. Know. This.

No. You know it is the thing that is most likely to happen, but you do not know that it will happen with 100% certainty. To do that you would need to be able to see into the future.

To me it sounds like you are saying that God has epic prediction skills. I don't consider that omniscience.

 

[vitreous]

I think I'll join the debate

or maybe not, considering you even had the guts to post this bit:

I can :) God has omniscience, man has free will. Any problems with that?

Also, for Brain, Morm, and any other Athiests/Agnostics reading this, if there was physical evidence that proved the Bible, Qur'an, etc. was true, even if you didn't understand all of the theology, would you agree that it's true?

of course i would agree that it is true if there is physical evidence; insisting on the other extreme would just be the counterpart of ignorantly saying all of the bible is true, and both are ignorant. but despite that, i will also be checking all of the theology. many religions have an off base morality system (most probably the worst being islam) and discriminatory tendencies that even if the god were existing, i would choose not to worship her. it does sound crazy, but then again i doubt a considerable evidence would present itself soon.

It's not God's will that anyone should go to Hell But some people will choose to do their own thing and certainly will go to Hell. God gives us a choice, and even allows us to choose things that are against his will.

so this is a "test" (i wouldn't even call it one). why would he even want us to do things that are against his will when he could have created us without that apple tree pandora's box? why would anyone want to be tested? what's the point of this test if god is absolutely certain i will go to hell?

As a simple example, I know my daughter loves bananas. So much so, that we have to keep them up in the cabinet or she'll eat every one of them. If I were to leave a banana out on the table before lunch tomorrow, and she would wake up in the morning and see it, I have no doubt whatsoever that she would peel it and eat it. I. Know. This. But at the same time, I would not have forced her to eat it, she would have chosen to. I just know her, and what she commonly does. In the same way, God can know what we are going to choose to do without forcing us to do it.

so you have no doubt that she will eat it. what if she doesn't have the appetite? no, you don't know. you said it yourself, you know what she "commonly" does. that doesn't mean she's open to change. i can say "i'll be doing my thesis at 4pm", but i can very well not do it and decide to procrastinate right at that hour. it means there is no way you can ascertain what exactly i'll be doing unless it happens. also do note that i never said this is how god works, i'm just pointing out that you're not using the correct example.

Exactly how does God's Omniscience imply determination? What God are you talking about? Not the God of the Bible.

what definition of omniscience are you talking about?

 

[waffles101]

I wish I could say that religion makes absolutely no sense unless you believe in magic (seriously, we live in the 21st century) but unfortunately that would be descriminatory so now I can't tell everyone that religion is not remotely scientifically viable. Unfortunately I would feel guilty if, on an open forum, I compared religion to what comes out of a bull's anus.
I don't mean to be offensive, just expressing my (realistic) view and I have no objection to the way people think, in fact, I really don't care (unless it means my friends can't sleep over Saturday night, which kinda sucks).

 

[mattj]

*point A*If they are wrong, then you ought to consider that *point B*whatever it is that led them to falsely adopt Islam, could very well have led them to adopt Christianity instead.

I see no connection between points A and B here. But please keep talking.

Yeah and Jesus is a loaf of bread.

Best comeback in this thread. Clear logic for the win.

It is not because God was proven to exist that I would respect him. He would have to earn that respect, perhaps by explaining his plan and convincing us that it's great.

This is beyond LOL worthy. A being creates the univers and you in it, and then has to prove his logic is sound to you, the little ant that he created before you would follow his rules. Come on man. Really? It doesn't matter what is said or done, you've already made up your mind.

No. You know it is the thing that is most likely to happen, but you do not know that it will happen with 100% certainty. To do that you would need to be able to see into the future.

To me it sounds like you are saying that God has epic prediction skills. I don't consider that omniscience.

What you consider omniscience isn't really the point of debate here. People keep saying "Oh, everyone says God is omniscient, and I think omniscience means this, and yadda yadda", but it's not what the Bible describes at all. Straw. Man. Arguments. Because it makes certain people feel superior to "beat up on strawman-god". It doesn't work on the God of the Bible though. If this is the "make up unrealistic arguments against gods that nobody worships thread" then yeah, feel free to continue.

so this is a "test" (i wouldn't even call it one). why would he even want us to do things that are against his will when he could have created us without that apple tree pandora's box? why would anyone want to be tested? what's the point of this test if god is absolutely certain i will go to hell?

What we've been talking about; fairness. You get the same chance I do.

what definition of omniscience are you talking about?

The Biblical one. What definition of omniscience are you talking about? One you made up?

 

[sonickid01]

Clearly and unambiguously define the biblical omniscience then with clear and unambiguous citations of biblical passages which clearly and unambiguously have no internal contradictions or contradictions with other parts of your particular holy text.

Your constant references to biblical omniscience are vague at best and totally devoid of substance at worst without proper citation. The definition you keep providing that your deity simply knows all possibilities but not which ones will actually take place in the future but also is so intelligent he knows what we will most likely do anyway is not one which we can consider logically consistent as you continuously weaken and then bolster the power of your deity's omniscience when faced with apparent contradiction like the tides. These two possibilites are logically inconsistent; the former implies that omniscience does not mean knowing everything with certainty since he has no knowledge of the future other than possibilites. However you then completely wipe away that definition by saying he knows the probabilities of everything we will likely do anyway.

Thus if he is quite accurate then he will know what we do based on these probabilities regardless of what we do and the less certainty he has, the more limited your omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omnipresent, and omniscient being is. Even if he "does not make a judgment in the future" or he "only waits for us to decide what the future holds," then he is clearly limited in the scope of his knowledge in that it is limited to the past and the present. If this is your definition of omniscience, then you better have some damn good reasoning WITH some very compelling evidence for this definition in the Bible or I will not be convinced. You cannot have your cake and eat it too; either your deity is omniscient and knows the future or the definition of omniscient is one that is limited in knowledge anyway and thus the definitions you give are simply being stretched ad hoc in order to resolve contradictions UNLESS YOU PROVIDE A BASIS FOR THEM.

Even if you do it still shows that your deity is limited by either something or someone else (the laws of logic? another deity? a force of supernature?) or is deliberately applying some self imposed limit. If he's limiting himself then he also by definition is not omnipotent but only quasi-omnipotent unless you've got a new definition in the Bible for that as well.

 

[mattj]

Lol, that's the problem. So far in this thread, everybody's been debating arbitrary and non Biblical definitions of terms in order to further their beliefs. If you find that kind of stuff fun, sure continue. I find it boring because you can just make up definitions on the fly fitting whatever you want, like playing pokemon with no rules and cheap hacks. We Christians are held by the words of the Bible though. It would really be silly of me to repeat myself. I quoted the texts up there already. If you didn't care to read them, that's your problem. Those are the Biblical definitions. If you wanna continue debating with the wind, feel free to.

Here's the deal. In reference to the Biblical God; he both gives us free will, and knows everything that we're gonna do, and there's no contradiction there. If you want references, try reading above.

 

[cookie]

This is beyond LOL worthy. A being creates the univers and you in it, and then has to prove his logic is sound to you, the little ant that he created before you would follow his rules. Come on man. Really? It doesn't matter what is said or done, you've already made up your mind.

ok really now

"god created you"
"where's the proof in that?"
"he doesn't need to prove anything to you!"
"why?"
"because he created you."

ladies and gentlemen: one of the hallmarks of religious "arguments" - circular reasoning

 

[tape]

Here's the deal. In reference to the Biblical God; he both gives us free will, and knows everything that we're gonna do, and there's no contradiction there. If you want references, try reading above.

I am sorry but omniscience and free will dont go together. either our life is predetermined by him (and thus known of) or he doesnt know everything. make your pick

also thanks god you deleted your last post.

 

[lati0s]

But some people will choose to do their own thing and certainly will go to Hell.

This is incredibly conceited. It seems to imply that people who do not follow god are aware of his existence but are just selfish and don't care about him. This is not the case. People who say they don't believe in the christian god don't believe in the christian god, in the exact same way that you don't believe in the Hindu gods. So, in the event that your god does exist, these people could not accurately be described as "choosing to do their own thing" as they are just acting on the knowledge they have. To imply that this is such a terrible act that it is deserving of hell is quite offensive.

In fact the idea of a 'loving' god sending anyone to hell is quite ludicrous.

@free will and omniscience

I see no problem with free will and omniscience coexisting but this is because I see no problem with free will and determinism coexisting. To me free will means the action you take is in part determined by your internal state of mind. For example if someone is standing on a bridge and jumps off then the used free will in this action because if they had had a different state of mind they would not have jumped, however as they are falling they are not using free will to fall as that would happen no matter there state of mind.

I have never seen a coherent definition of free will that is incompatible with determinism.

 

[tape]

ive read the bible a lot, and the whole omnibenevolent and loving god bullshit seems to be just that. bullshit.

i understand up to a point we'd have to respect him and stuff, but he has slapped his believers in the bible history so many times that its almost baffling.

also he's not omnibeloving and all-forgiving if he sends anyone to hell??? another of those omni-contradictions

 

[Obsessed]

People keep saying "Oh, everyone says God is omniscient, and I think omniscience means this, and yadda yadda", but it's not what the Bible describes at all. Straw. Man. Arguments. Because it makes certain people feel superior to "beat up on strawman-god". It doesn't work on the God of the Bible though. If this is the "make up unrealistic arguments against gods that nobody worships thread" then yeah, feel free to continue.What we've been talking about; fairness. You get the same chance I do.The Biblical one. What definition of omniscience are you talking about? One you made up?

Why are you being such a douche?

As I posted before, I was enrolled into a religious school. Omniscience, as it was described to me, was that God knew all of our actions in advanced with 100% certainty. You seem to think it means something else. Guess what. The people that taught me that definition of omniscience also got that definition from the Bible. It seems they had a different interpretation.

I'm not intentionally attacking a straw god. You and I have different interpretations of what omniscience is. I've met Christians that agree with my definition so clearly your interpretation of omniscience is not the only valid one in Christianity.

 

[cookie]

some kid born in god-forsaken ethiopia in the middle of a famine and who won't live long enough to even understand the concept of god does NOT have the same chance to love god/whatever as some person born in an industrialised country

 

[NeilKosugi]

Dear World,

Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one and it's fine to be proud of it, but please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around... and PLEASE don't try to shove it down a child's throat.

If it's fine to have a religion, but you can't bring it up in public or teach it to your child, then how am I supposed to worship? Should I just throw my beliefs away when I start dating? I enjoy going to church; should I leave my child home? Wouldn't the kid get bored without his father? Eventually, the kid would become an atheist; how would an atheist react to having his/her child praying to God/Allah/some Hindu god/etc. before eating dinner? To this, I chant: "Zebra zebra short and stout, find your head and pull it out!"

 

[mattj]

Can I reply without having it deleted because you can't refute it this time Cookie? Or should the title of this thread be changed to "Hey, let's all bash Religion and silence anyone who disagrees"? That's the exact example given in the Bible (Acts 8), and that's the exact example missionaries have passed on to me too. If you don't want to believe it, that's your business, but that's the Biblical response.

 

[tape]

If it's fine to have a religion, but you can't bring it up in public or teach it to your child, then how am I supposed to worship? Should I just throw my beliefs away when I start dating? I enjoy going to church; should I leave my child home? Wouldn't the kid get bored without his father? Eventually, the kid would become an atheist; how would an atheist react to having his/her child praying to God/Allah/some Hindu god/etc. before eating dinner? To this, I chant: "Zebra zebra short and stout, find your head and pull it out!"

i dont know what or where the fuck you are going with this and why youre making such extreme examples.

you cant have your religion, for all i care you can worship a goat head in your closet. but dont go around preaching and trying to "help" people like an idiot on the street. dont be such a zealous christian fan.

also christianity isnt the only religion, and i think its about the only one that annoys the shit out of you just about everywhere you go??? theres always some annoying-ass preacher.

i guess thats what my sig means.

edit: mattj your post was stupid. before you actually say anything about how people would act were god be proven or something, actually PROVE him. baseless arm-waving whether we would believe in him or not.

 

[mattj]

edit: mattj your post was stupid. before you actually say anything about how people would act were god be proven or something, actually PROVE him. baseless arm-waving whether we would believe in him or not.

It is not because God was proven to exist that I would respect him. He would have to earn that respect, perhaps by explaining his plan and convincing us that it's great.

He said how he would act, not me. I'm sorry though, this seems to be the wrong thread to discuss this though.

 

[tape]

im talking about your post that got deleted

 

[cookie]

Can I reply without having it deleted because you can't refute it this time Cookie? Or should the title of this thread be changed to "Hey, let's all bash Religion and silence anyone who disagrees"? That's the exact example given in the Bible (Acts 8), and that's the exact example missionaries have passed on to me too. If you don't want to believe it, that's your business, but that's the Biblical response.

no i deleted your post because it was like the guy in wizard of oz looking for a brain



now I'm going try once more. all there needs to be is one example to disprove the notion that everyone born has equal opportunity to believe in a christian god, to love him or whatever it is that you're describing.

take a child born with some awful disease and dies soon after birth. what fucking use is a missionary? that child doesn't have the cognitive ability to comprehend god. or a kid who's mentally so retarded it can't even tie its own shoelaces. or someone born in a country so militantly atheist that the very concept of god is completely censored (see soviet russia).

more to the point, why the fuck is god relying on missionaries to do his dirty work? you said he gives everyone free will so by YOUR definition these missionaries aren't completely reliable because they can choose not to spread the word of god to those who need it for salvation

god is imperfect if he's relying on agents of free will to spread his word so lol why would i worship someone who's imperfect, and more to the point why should i believe it when he says i'll go to hell if i don't.

 

[sonickid01]

edit: mattj your post was stupid. before you actually say anything about how people would act were god be proven or something, actually PROVE him. baseless arm-waving whether we would believe in him or not.

To be fair he's trying to. Someone challenged the idea of omniscience and he's trying to refute arguments against the existence of the Christian God. He's not just waving his arms around, he's actually trying to take down an argument we brought up.

Edit: To cookie - since the babies were destined to die immediately anyway they didn't actually have souls or were even really humans, their deaths were just put there to test our faiths.

 

[NeilKosugi]

you cant have your religion

Called it.

 

[cookie]

Edit: To cookie - since the babies were destined to die immediately anyway

destined? elaborate on what this destiny is - does this mean everyone else's lives are governed by destiny as well, and to what degree?

they didn't actually have souls or were even really humans, their deaths were just put there to test our faiths.

whoa there. define the start point of when a person has soul.

oh and what about people in soviet russia and the kids with downs syndrome

and way to take my quote out of context and sig it mattj, nice to see you've resorted to twisting words to refute MY arguments