In-Game Tier List Discussion

[Raikaria]

I used Scolipede my first playthrough, only because I happened to find a shiny Venipede.

The Venipede phase is almost pure babying. It can finally start to hold its own when it gets access to STAB moves beyond Poison Sting, but considering the is the period of game before Exp Share and Lucky Egg, I found it fairly annoying.

Whirlipede is just meh. Sure, STAB Poison Tail/Bug Bite with decent defenses, but it can hold its own and not much past that.

Scolipede doesn't come into its own until Megahorn, at which point it finally becomes decent. Before that you're working with low BP Moves (Poison Tail, Bug Bite, Bulldoze, etc) with mediocre Attack. It's great against random stuff at this point, but from my experience never truly excelled. It's a bit of a one-trick pony, a fast STAB Megahorn, but it's a damn good trick. It's not powerful enough to deal with the E4 though, and can die a bit fast. I think mine actually got outsped by the Hydreigon. It gets Swords Dance to set up, as well as EQ, but only after the E4.

It's decent enough to get away with if you really like it, but I was a bit underwhelmed with mine. I wouldn't put it past mid, due to a decent period of mediocrity, needing a few levels of babying when it's at its most obnoxious, and underwhelming performance against the E4. STAB Megahorn is strong and all, but it doesn't really have much past that.

While certainly not high teir, I feel like I should argue a few points.

When I used Ventipede, I hardly had to baby it. Ventipede x4 Resists Grass. Pinwheel Forest houses Petlil on White, and Cottonee in Black. Both are hit SE by Poision Sting.

Not to mention the good ol' bait and switch on Audino. That really raises levels.

After learning Poision Tail, Ventipede can more than care for itself. Whirlipede was one of my best team members, while I had it, and Scolipede was awesome up until... just after the 7th Gym, where it started to slow down a little. And, by slow down, I mean not OHKO everything. It still outsped everything. I had no issues with lack of Megahorn. In fact, I never even taught mine Bulldoze...

 

[Son_of_Shadoo]

As other people were saying, even getting a Tynamo in the first place is ridiculously hard and time consuming, while Joltiks are in abundance. Also, Tynamo can't learn any other moves than its starting set, while Joltic can be taught Volt Switch and other moves.

Seriously, Tynamo is pretty bad. The only reason I used one in my playthrough because I wanted to get the electric lamprey, simple as that.

I disagree with the point that it's difficult to find Tynamo. The encounter rate in Chargestone is so ludicrous, that even by just passing through on your first trip, it's highly unlikely you WON'T see at least one or two.

 

[Lou Cypher]

Whirlipede is prolly one of the best users of Eviolite by the by. It already has good defenses at that point and further boosting them up makes him a hard to beat tank. Poison Point helps in whittling down physically-hitting foes.

 

[flashkickass]

I disagree with the point that it's difficult to find Tynamo. The encounter rate in Chargestone is so ludicrous, that even by just passing through on your first trip, it's highly unlikely you WON'T see at least one or two.

not at all. my first playthough i spent a good 2 hours in that damn cave and didn't find a single one. i have spent all told maybe 5 hours over 3 playthroughs and i have found 2, one in my last and one in this one. and that was after a long wait time. it was easier to get a sawk.

 

[farranpoison]

I disagree with the point that it's difficult to find Tynamo. The encounter rate in Chargestone is so ludicrous, that even by just passing through on your first trip, it's highly unlikely you WON'T see at least one or two.

I'm sorry, since when was a 2% encounter rate not ludicrous? Sure, it gets to 8% deeper in the cave, but common sense would dictate you'd want it at the beginning of the cave so you could use the cave's trainers to train with. You could be looking forever for a Tynamo at the beginning of the cave when you could have just picked up a Joltik and then trained it through the cave.

I remember looking very hard for a Tynamo, trying not to go any farther than the beginning of the cave (I didn't want to fight N until I had one lol) and then after a few hours, I gave up and caught a Klink to train instead. Then, after I beat N, I literally ran into one and I decided, what the hell, and caught and trained it. Really, it's like trying to find and train a Cryogonal in Winter, except that at least Cryogonal has some diversity in movepool. What if you're against a Ground type with Tynamo? Tackle? Right...

 

[Mattman324]

I'd like to help out the three pokemon who got used in my minilocke runs of White, but those are Throh, Darmanitan, and Stoutland, all of whom are top... so yeah.


I DO want them to be kept there, however. Stoutland is a monster of a mon' no matter which ability you have (I've minilocked that game 3 or 4 times, they all had Pickup/Sand Throw). Yes, Intimidate is great. But Vengeance (as long as you can get past the PP issues) is MURDER (no pun intended), Crunch is great, and auxillery wise, well, Work Out is there for some occasional help. Oh, and it isn't very fragile either.

The other end of the spectrum is Darmanitan. It IS horribly fragile. However, if anything actually attacks it, you have made a mistake. Sure, the movepool could be better. But Fire Punch can sereously mangle just about ANY foe in your way... including the Bug gym, which comes just before capture. Also, Dig is obtained soon after, which gives coverage. If anything should be noted as Scyther 2.0, perhaps it's Darumaka. Just be careful of Hustle and the miss chance pre-evolution, and never touch special attacks.

Finally, Throh. They aren't that horribly uncommon (I found 2 in 4 trys... in a Nuzlocke... meaning they were the first thing I saw. And one was level 17 to.), and learn Vital Throw pretty early. You still need to level them up to beat that Watchog (curse that thing), but they also get Seismic Toss for catching purposes. After that? It get's stormy... or, perhaps, Storm Throwish. Storm throw is a monster of a move, it's basically 80 base power-and-no-drawbacks is almost unmatched for a while (Except by a certain mole and a certain 2 turn move.) And it breaks through Harden and Iron Defense and such. Pretty snazzy move. And did I mention the bulk factor? Throh is built to take hits.

 

[Kikuichimonji]

You sir, are evading the question. Who do you use to counter Hydreigon when your Sawk has Inner Focus?

Sturdy is actually irrelevant against Hydreigon; I don't know why I brought it up. I just did some basic calcs and there's pretty much no way for Dragon Pulse can be a OHKO unless Hydregion has max special attack and Sawk has close to minimum HP and special defense at a very low level. Even if Sawk was unlucky enough to roll a zero IV in both HP and special defense and only picked up 40 EVs in each, Dragon Pulse will only OHKO a level 53 Sawk about 8% of the time, assuming that Hydreigon has max special attack (which I'm not sure he does).

Anyway Sawk outspeeds Ghetsis' entire team after an X-speed, which would probably be something to take advantage of considering that Sawk can effortlessly OHKO half of Ghetsis's team (and 2HKO's everything else apart from Cofagrigus).

 

[spweasel]

Before I begin my main topic, I'd like to point out that 40 EVs in HP or SpD wold be very high considering how few Pokemon you regularly encounter have either EV. I just checked and nobody on my team was anywhere close to that, with HP EV's floating around 20 and SpD in the single digits.

Also, level 53 is a little on the high side for when you encounter Ghetsis, since your team average should probably be closer to 50. Not to mention that pretty much any Steel/Dark Pokemon can set up as much as they need against Cofagrigus (just bring some Full Restores), which means you can just pop some X Attacks and X Speeds to sweep his entire team with an absurd number of different Pokemon. Unless you are doing a no-items run, Ghetsis shouldn't be a huge factor for tiering.

So anyways, I started a Black run last night to test Sawk (I'm also going to test Dwebble and possibly Dragon Dance Scraggy).

It took roughly 35-40 minutes of running from every non-Sawk encounter with battle animations off to catch a Sturdy Sawk. I didn't see a Sawk at all until 10 minutes of searching, but it was Inner Focus so I reset (to get my Dusk Ball back). I lucked out in that my first Sturdy Sawk had a good nature (only 17/25 of the natures are even acceptable).

The second Sawk led me to an important observation about catching Sawk - don't do it in the dark grass unless you are coming back to get one later. A double battle with a level 17 Sawk and a level 14-15 Growl-spamming Pidove gave me my second Game Over of Generation 5 (the first being my first experience with Hydreigon). Also, I'm convinced that the encounter rate for Sawk in dark grass is not noticeably higher than it is in regular grass, which means that the slightly lower-leveled (on average) Sawks from regular grass are probably preferable due to being easier to catch.

As for Sawk's performance, I was a little disappointed considering I caught one with an amazing nature (Adamant, which is second only to Jolly). Sure it has lowish EVs, but nature should more than make up for that. Level 12 Sawk failed to sweep N's team due to lack of power (Rock Smash doesn't kill fast enough), leaving Herdier to pick up the slack. I decided to grind to at least 13 before taking on the Gym.

Against Lenora, I was about 17-18 going in. Since Sawk has a type advantage and stupidly high Attack, I assume that he'd easily sweep even though he's slightly lower leveled. No such luck. Intimidate meant that Lenora's Herdier couldn't be OHKOed, so Sawk took too much damage to survive anything from the (faster than a level 18 Sawk) Watchog. I needed to switch to my own Herdier so I could heal Sawk for the win.

He was certainly good, but I was still a little disappointed considering that Gym #2 wasn't any easier than in my first run. I realize that if I had caught a higher leveled Sawk it would have been a more clean sweep, but the more restrictions you add to the Sawk you want, the more time you need to take out of your run to catch one.

It's possible that I was simply expecting too much from Sawk in the first gym, so I have no problem giving him another chance. I have low expectations for him in Pinwheel, meaning Herdier will probably continue to be my MVP for a while longer.

 

[Serious_Business]

On a side note, finally beat the E4 in my latest playthrough.

I definitely think Crustle should be high. Crustle was able to easily sweep the Ghost and Psychic E4 members, as well as Ghetsis. That said, Sturdy was a non-insignificant factor is being able to sweep, and Dwebble is as rare as Sigilyph in the Resort Desert. Single handedly taking out half the E4 though, as well as most of the electric gym, the flying and ice gym, and sweeping Drayden and all the rival battles with ease...he was great.

One pokemon that pleasantly surprised me was Beartic. Sure, it's a bit fragile, but having access to STAB Icicle Crash and Superpower right off the bat, coupled with a Quick Claw, saved my ass more than once. I definitely feel he was mid range, probably closer to lower mid, but ONLY because I caught him already evolved. Having to train up Chubchoo would've been a different story. He's just a nice late-game acquisition.

 

[PokéMontage]

As for choosing who to use for your lead in Pinwheel, it's way faster to put Timburr there instead of having to switch out Sawk at every single wild Pokemon.

From what I remember, I simply taught it Retaliate. Yes, I know, 5PP, but I remember it doing just fine in Pinwheel.

Just pointing out that Tynamo has very similar stats to Joltik b4 it evolves, actually resists flying meaning it can potentially perform better in the 6th gym, and evolves only 3 lvls later. If its speed (base 60) is considered "pretty bad", then Joltik's (65) isn't much better. I'd hardly say there's such a huge barrier among them.

Not making a point about either pokemon's tiering, just stating some facts.

You seem to be forgetting that Tynamo evolves 3 levels later into its second stage evolution, i.e. it'll have mediocre stats. Joltik evolves 3 levels earlier into it's final form, which is both much faster and stronger than Eelektrik.

EDIT: nm, for some reason I thought you had to evolve Eelektrik at a high level, but you use a Thunderstone instead. Still, Eelektross is very slow, and if you want it to learn Thunderbolt you still have to train it more as an Eelektrik before evolving since you won't have TM access for awhile (and unlike Galvantula, it can't abuse Thunder).

 

[Adaptability]

I really don't think that Tynamo deserves some of the badmouth it's receiving. ;-;
Having a Pokemon without a weakness is certainly reliable. It has decent stats, and it's grand total attacks of 4 are enough for it to survive the portion of the game that follows it's place of capture. Tynamo wasn't too hard to grind either, with the following Route from outside of Chargestone being a great place to farm Audino's. Also the flying gym was a just breeze with Tynamo.

I also agree with Serious Business, with Cubchoo needing to be higher. Except I caught a Cubchoo on Route 7 and battled against wild Audino's. After evolution, Beartic really did rape the game with Icicle Crash alone. Beartic completed raped the three remaining gyms after being captured.

 

[spweasel]

My apologies, I'm kinda discussing my team, but it's because I'm testing them specifically due to this thread. That should be ok, right?

Last night I beat Gym #5 in my Black run, and I have to say that Sawk hasn't been living up to the hype. He has had no trouble keeping up with my other two Pokemon (I'm running a three-man crew this time around), but he hasn't done anything to set himself apart.

One of my biggest issues was that Sawk kept just barely missing the OHKO on neutral targets prior to Brick Break, while Fighting-weak Pokemon were generally so weak that the first hit of Double Kick either OHKOed them or came pretty darn close (which means that a neutral hard-hitting STAB from the rest of my team would have been a OHKO anyways).

Combined with the plethora of Fighting-resistant Pokemon running around once you finish the second gym (Bug, Flying, Poison, and even Psychics are pretty common amongst trainers), I'm no longer convinced that Sawk is the absolute best Pokemon in the early game. Only very rarely have I wanted to send out Sawk instead of Herdier, although I did wish that Sawk were a Scraggy a few times.

Dwebble has been pretty meh so far (he's at level 32, though, so he's going to improve a lot very soon). He's defensively strong enough (especially with the Evolite) that he has no problem taking hits, but his offenses are pretty terrible. Rock Slide is good, but the accuracy makes it undesirable for a primary STAB. Smack Down is decent against Fliers, but as a neutral STAB it's not very good. Bug Bite is fine except for still being a little weak on neutral targets due to Dwebble's lack of Attack (the fact that I got one with a terrible nature and Attack IV didn't help).

For both Pokemon, Sturdy has been completely and totally useless, since it hasn't activated yet.

 

[The Cicada]

I have a question. Why are Reshiram and Zekrom in their own tier? I don't know if it means that they are the best of the best, or what. Reshiram and Zekrom actually suck ass (for me atleast) you get them right before the last two boss battles and for some reason they can't seem to ever do shit against N or Ghetsis. I have to say Reshiram and Zekrom belong in low tier. Maybe it's just me, idk.

 

[spweasel]

I have a question. Why are Reshiram and Zekrom in their own tier?

Reshiram / Zekhrom are "Neutral Tier". Don't discuss them. It's too Spoiler-ridden.

So yep, that's why we aren't discussing them. I would talk about them more (they aren't bad, considering), but there apparently aren't spoiler tags on Smogon.

 

[R_N]

90% actually works fairly well, I found. I carried around things like Rock Blast, Hammer Arm and such and hit my marks most of the time.

 

[Serious_Business]

For both Pokemon, Sturdy has been completely and totally useless, since it hasn't activated yet.

I didn't get a single Sturdy activation on my Crustle until the E4, but it was definitely a big deal there when it did, allowing me to get up an extra Shell Smash.

 

[Pika25]

Not to mention N's Tao dragon is two levels higher than your own (52 vs your 50) and has moves specifically for the battle between Tao dragons (For Black, his Zekrom carries Light Screen, Giga Impact, Zen Headbutt and Fusion Bolt; for White, his Reshiram has the moves Reflect, Hyper Beam, Extrasensory and Fusion Flare)

My White Team is on YouTube, I just got Victini; my thoughts on the team so far:

Serpent: Snivy/Servine. Growth and Grass attacks made this guy somewhat useful, unless I see Tepig/Pansear (Except Cheren's Level 5 Tepig). Before I got Vine Whip it was basically one Leer followed by Tackles. MVP so far, mid / high maybe?

Squirt: Panpour/Simipour. All Squirt was used for as a Panpour was against Cheren's Tepig at the Trainers' School, as well as random Pansear (including Chili's). I expect Squirt the Simipour to do more than Squirt the Panpour did. Leaning towards mid / low for now.

Sylvester: Purrloin. Needed to take random Bites / Crunches from Lillipup / Patrat lines, otherwise it was used merely as death fodder so that Serpent could come in and clean up. Low for sure, at least for now. At least it's a level or two away from a Dark move, after which I could move it a bit higher, maybe to mid / low.

Sparky: Blitzle. Shock Wave at Level 11 is serious business. Otherwise frail, and I had to use the bait-and-switch method just for more experience. Got Thunder Wave, which I needed for obtaining more team members. Sparky is easily mid / high material, but I am leaning more towards mid / low for now.

Star: Victini, which I just obtained. I needed the Liberty Pass just to get this, plus it was a bit tough to catch (thanks to a catch rate of 3), but I will expect this to hold its own in major fights thanks to its speed and power, not to mention its bulk. In fact I expect this to demolish Castelia Gym, especially the Sewaddle line (including Burgh's Leavanny), although the Dwebble might need my other team members. Expect this in god tier.

 

[spweasel]

90% actually works fairly well, I found. I carried around things like Rock Blast, Hammer Arm and such and hit my marks most of the time.

90% is fine for coverage moves (since you aren't relying on them except when needed), but as your go-to move for pure damage I'd at least want something more than 75 Power for Dwebble's low Attack. I'm not saying it's unusable, or even that it isn't a great move, it's just that I wish there was a fairly strong, 100% accurate Rock move.

I'm not going to lie, my main concern is for after he obtains Shell Smash, when a single miss could result in losing him due to his lowered defenses.

Also, I know Sturdy is likely to be more useful later on (especially for Crustle) - it's just that it hasn't come up yet. Based on how long it apparently takes to become relevant, I'm hesitant to call it one of the best abilities in-game as has been previously claimed.

 

[The Cicada]

90% is fine for coverage moves (since you aren't relying on them except when needed), but as your go-to move for pure damage I'd at least want something more than 75 Power for Dwebble's low Attack. I'm not saying it's unusable, or even that it isn't a great move, it's just that I wish there was a fairly strong, 100% accurate Rock move.

I'm not going to lie, my main concern is for after he obtains Shell Smash, when a single miss could result in losing him due to his lowered defenses.

Also, I know Sturdy is likely to be more useful later on (especially for Crustle) - it's just that it hasn't come up yet. Based on how long it apparently takes to become relevant, I'm hesitant to call it one of t
he best abilities in-game as has been previously claimed.

I have to admit, Rock Slide missed alot for me when i was crossing my fingers for it to hit. But thats why it gets X-Scissor, right?

 

[thejoker98]

My team was
-Emboar
-Musharna
-Simisage
-Stoutland
-Krookodile
-Sawk

The thing is, Emboar is a great starter in game as there are few Ground or Water types barring Clay. Musharna is a beast, an absolute beast, Evolve it at level 37 and it has Calm Mind, Psychic, Charge Beam (if you want) and Shadow Ball (if you want). This has made it the best on my team. For the first, second, forth, fifth gym, simisage is great, Evolve it at level 22 for Seed Bomb, teach it Shadow Claw, Work Up and Brick Break and it will thrash. Stoutland evolves earlyish at level 32 so can be your prime till your starter evolves, otherwise, probably the weakest on my team but is still good. Krookodile, like Scraggy takes forever and a half to evolve but is so useful. If you dont like it and you didnt start with Emboar, get Darmanitan and teach it Earthquake. This team beat N without Reshiram (admittedly struggled a little) but the coverage in moves is great. Oh ya! Sawk! Sawk is so fantastic as it doesnt have stats of a pre evolved pokemon. 120 base attack and Brick Break for the second gym is legend, even later on, he is great. Bulldoze is good on him but then replacewith Earthquake. THE MAJOR PROBLEM WITH THIS TEAM IS NO FLIER OR HM SLAVE, but i kept switching Stoutland for Ducklett.

 

[thejoker98]

My team was
-Emboar
-Musharna
-Simisage
-Stoutland
-Krookodile
-Sawk

The thing is, Emboar is a great starter in game as there are few Ground or Water types barring Clay. Musharna is a beast, an absolute beast, Evolve it at level 37 and it has Calm Mind, Psychic, Charge Beam (if you want) and Shadow Ball (if you want). This has made it the best on my team. For the first, second, forth, fifth gym, simisage is great, Evolve it at level 22 for Seed Bomb, teach it Shadow Claw, Work Up and Brick Break and it will thrash. Stoutland evolves earlyish at level 32 so can be your prime till your
starter evolves, otherwise, probably the weakest on my team but is still good. Krookodile, like Scraggy takes forever and a half to evolve but is so useful. If you dont like it and you didnt start with Emboar, get Darmanitan and teach it Earthquake. This team beat N without Reshiram (admittedly struggled a little) but the coverage in moves is great. Oh ya! Sawk! Sawk is so fantastic as it doesnt have stats of a pre evolved pokemon. 120 base attack and Brick Break for the second gym is legend, even later on, he is great. Bulldoze is good on him but then replacewith Earthquake. THE MAJOR PROBLEM WITH THIS TEAM IS NO FLIER OR HM SLAVE, but i kept switching Stoutland for Ducklett.

Simsage is Mid/High
Emboar is Mid/High
Stoutland is Mid
Sawk is Mid
Musharna is High
Krookodile is Mid

 

[thejoker98]

I disagree with Munna being Low Tier, in fact, it should be high tier! Munna, when you get it at dream yard, starts off weak, with only Psybeam. As you progress, you will find Evolite which makes Munna a Wall. Much later, you will achieve level 37 so Munna will have Hypnosis, Moonlight, Psychic, Calm Mind, pretty bad attacking. BUT THEN EVOLVE IT!!! Behold a massive S.Attack, HP, S.Defense, Decent Defense unfortunately poor speed. Give it Calm Mind/Hypnosis/Moonlight, Charge beam, Psychic/Psyshock and Shadow Ball and a High Tier Pokemon is born!

 

[Lou Cypher]

Yet up until that level, Munna is...crap. Plenty of dark types making its life hell, not to mention the Crunches coming off the plethora of Watchogs, the Bug gym, etc etc...

 

[kaonohiokala]

Hey guys I just came by to tell you about my in-game team it was soooo good! My Monferno just decimated everything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111..... jk.

Anyways, Munna should definitely be middle to upper mid tier. Sure, it starts with only one decent attacking type, but it uses that type very well. For starters, Psybeam at Lv. 11 right after the first gym is basically one of the strongest move any of your Pokemon will have for a while, and it's backed by Psychic STAB and a strong special attacking stat. Sure, Munna can't hit Dark-types, but this tier isn't about what Pokemon can clear through the game alone, but what Pokemon can offer the most to teams. Against anything not Bug/Dark/Steel-type (or Lillipup/Patrat w/ Dark-type attacks), Munna does exceptionally well, being able to score 2HKOs on many early game threats. It only gets better as you progress, when moves such as Charge Beam and Shadow Ball become available for coverage. All this and I didn't even mention Yawn and Moonlight (both exceptional support moves).

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Except earlygame mons are actually FULL of Lillipups and Patrats... :/ you are pretty much only hitting stuff that are just before the 2nd gym.

If the wild Sewaddles knew Bug Bite, Munna would definitely be lower, period.