Here Comes The Sun!

[shrang]

Are we going to talk about Sunny Day in "Ubers"?? Unlike in the current PO metagame, Sunny Day is probably the best weather condition to be running in the current "Ubers" metagame. Firstly, there is Reshiram, who has absolutely no safe switch-ins whatsoever, since Blue Fire 2HKOs even Blissey in the sun after SR, and dominates Heatran due to Turboblaze. Then, we have Ho-oh, who got a massive buff in Regeneration and Nitro Charge. Zekrom is not a bad addition to Ubers sun teams either, since he can throw around powerful Electric attacks while it's sunny.

In 4th gen Ubers, stall generally used the sun as favourable weather, since a lot of Pokemon used Thunder and Kyogre ripped through stuff with rain boosted water attacks, but in 5th gen, I'm not so sure, since there are so many more dangerous attackers that take advantage of the sun.

 

[charhazzard]

Rotom-H seems helpful with his bulk and can knock out waters with stabbed tbolts. Overheat in the sun also packs a punch.

 

[IcyMan28]

Leafeon

Leafeon gets little more than a speed boost from Chlorophyll; it gains no other advantages. I would say that a fast Baton Pass separates it, but then the only DW Eeveelutions released so far have been male, and we don't have DW Ditto to attempt breeding yet.

Shifty

It is already in the OP, and there is mention of a potential mixed set in the comments.

Doredia

Unless you can prove that Doredia is capable of inflicting severe damage to the large majority of the metagame using Petal Dance and HP Fire alone, I'm not inclined to believe it has too much over other Chloro users aside from Butterfly Dance. Growth is actually more efficient in the sun, and the additional speed from BD is often overkill.

Are we going to talk about Sunny Day in "Ubers"?? Unlike in the current PO metagame, Sunny Day is probably the best weather condition to be running in the current "Ubers" metagame. Firstly, there is Reshiram, who has absolutely no safe switch-ins whatsoever, since Blue Fire 2HKOs even Blissey in the sun after SR, and dominates Heatran due to Turboblaze. Then, we have Ho-oh, who got a massive buff in Regeneration and Nitro Charge. Zekrom is not a bad addition to Ubers sun teams either, since he can throw around powerful Electric attacks while it's sunny.

I guess I could add in mentions of Uber sun abusers, but the Uber metagame is significantly different and I think it might be a better idea to simply discuss that in its own thread? Idk.

Rotom-H

I think I'll go ahead and include it, as it provides varied resists and has levitate.

Rotom-H@Choice Specs
Timid; 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Speed

Trick
Overheat
Thunderbolt
Hidden Power Fighting

Maybe this set? HP Fighting nails Tar switch-ins, while Thunderbolt and Overheat cover the other weather pokemon. Rotom-H also puts pressure against several rain pokemon; they might be able to come in on Overheat, but Thunderbolt is another story.

 

[TSPhoenix]

^A water type on a sun team is definitely interesting. Any sets in particular you have in mind?

I haven't used weather much but I find its often pretty beneficial to put a Water-type on a sun team. If they bring in Politoed you can use their weather against them, and if they try to use your weather against you with boosted Fire Blasts it helps to have an additional resist. While your Grass-types already resist water most are weak to Ice, and vice-versa for your Fire-types. Having a Pokemon that resists both takes a lot of risk out of switching.

Any Pokemon with addition useful resists is always welcome. Thick Fat is a great defensive ability for a rain team, as are Fighting or Ground typings. Anything that can take advantage of reduced Water-type attacks like Steels or Grounds works well.

While weather teams do work, they can sometimes fall apart (ie against a Trick Room team) so having as many Pokemon as possible be able to function well without their ideal weather is a good idea.

How much of your team you want to be super-powerful at the cost of being weather reliant versus playing it safer is really up to you, but running a team that falls to pieces without its weather is madness.

 

[shrang]

Just another sun abuser that could be added to OP which should have been: Victini. With great rounded stats, a good movepool and Victory Star, he can actually deal quite a lot of damage under the sun:

Victini @ Life Orb
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
-Fire Blast / Blaze Judgement
-Grass Knot
-Shadow Ball / Thunderbolt
-Focus Blast

With Victory Star, Fire Blast becomes 93% accurate and Focus Blast 77%, which is a lot more respectable, but Blaze Judgement is pretty cool, since it's a strong attack with no drawbacks plus 30% chance to burn (I mean, it's almost as good as Sacred Fire). The rest of the moves give Victini maximum coverage. Shadow Ball hits Latias, which Victini WILL have trouble against.

 

[Ballad]

I'd give Machamp a mention. It doesn't benefit from the sun but it is a perfect weather counter. DynamicPunch always 2HKOs Politoed and Hippowdon, OHKOs Tyranitar and Abomasnow. None of them really get to him because of his bulk and typing. Idk what set I like best though. Wish there were five moves, ResTalk is really superior but it needs Payback AND Stone Edge.

Currently playing Ninetales/Machamp/Cresselia/Venusaur/Heatran/Arcanine. Team gets demolished by Scarf Sazandora and is walled by Burungeru. Don't like Arcanine, too frail and too slow to make up for it with 66% Morning Sun. What would you use over Arcanine to help with Sazandora/Burungeru? Make w/e changes but seeing as those two are so common I need to not be raped by them.

 

[Benlisted]

Well leafeon does get yawn xD. also my leafeon is faster and hits a bit harder even without coverage. My leafeon as I said before works much better than venusaur for my team.

The thing about the chlorophyll sweepers this Gen is that coverage and max speed pretty much determines how good they are. After Growth they are all insanely powerful, so a slightly better base atk doesnt help that much, and Leafeon's slighty better speed doesnt counteract his terrible coverage.

A mixed Shiftry set could work wonders on a sun team. With growth doubling both of his attacking stats, he effectively has more than the boost of all three choice items, with the freedom to do whatever he wants.

I'd try Sucker Punch over Dark Pulse perhaps. Your Atk is better anyway, but the priority will help against enemy priority users, who will pretty much destroy Shiftry's awful defences. And if they start using non-attacking moves you can play mind games and grab another growth.

I haven't used weather much but I find its often pretty beneficial to put a Water-type on a sun team. If they bring in Politoed you can use their weather against them, and if they try to use your weather against you with boosted Fire Blasts it helps to have an additional resist. While your Grass-types already resist water most are weak to Ice, and vice-versa for your Fire-types. Having a Pokemon that resists both takes a lot of risk out of switching.

Any Pokemon with addition useful resists is always welcome. Thick Fat is a great defensive ability for a rain team, as are Fighting or Ground typings. Anything that can take advantage of reduced Water-type attacks like Steels or Grounds works well.

The thing about that is that Water STABs are rendered useless with Sun. Personally I prefer to rely on a grass type that outspeeds all Politoeds without Sun and can OHKO it or any water sweeper potentially switching in - the rain player either loses a sweeper or Toed. Attempted revenge kills if they sac Toed can be switched into by Ninetales if special due to its bulk and Sun halving water damage, and if they sac a sweeper then you get a free kill. The other alternative is they switch in a utility poke, who you will likely outspeed and can 2HKO.

Currently playing Ninetales/Machamp/Cresselia/Venusaur/Heatran/Arcanine. Team gets demolished by Scarf Sazandora and is walled by Burungeru. Don't like Arcanine, too frail and too slow to make up for it with 66% Morning Sun. What would you use over Arcanine to help with Sazandora/Burungeru? Make w/e changes but seeing as those two are so common I need to not be raped by them.

Trying Infernape over Arcanine to help with revenging Sazandora may be useful. I don't see how you have big Burungeru problems when you have Venusaur. Boiling water does pitiful damage to it even with no investment in defences, and Venu threatens the OHKO with most of its attacks. If you use a primarily special set it could care less about the Burn too. Maybe changing the set could help with it?

 

[JTwinkies]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Solar Power Charizard yet.

With rapid spin support, (something that is nearly necessary to provide more switch ins for Ninetales as well as other teammates) he can make HUGE dents in opposing teams. He's ridiculously powerful.

A set of:

Charizard@Expert Belt (Solar Power obviously)
Timid; 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Speed

Fire Blast / Flamethrower
Solar Beam
Air Slash
Focus Blast / Dragon Pulse / HP Ice / HP Ground

His adequate movepool provides great coverage, and he really should be running Solar Beam, seeing as his ability is meant to abuse sun anyways. It will help him combat bulky waters and rock/ground types alike. Fire Blast will make HUGE holes in opposing Pokemon, boosted by STAB, Solar Power, and Sunny Day. Air Slash provides great neutral coverage, and it's resistances are helped by its other attacks. Finally, Focus Blast / HP Ground are mainly to counter Heatran looking for a free switch, while Dragon Pulse / HP Ice can be used against Dragons.

Expert Belt is used because many people expect a Charizard attacking straight off the bat to be choiced in some way, and the massive damage done can make people mistake him for Specs. His AMAZING coverage provided with the above moves grants him the ability to use Expert Belts utility to great extent. And Timid nature is to outspeed other Pokemon (while still maintaing high attack due to its numerous boosts).

One change that can be considered is running Choice Scarf. With rapid spin support, a scarfed Charizard becomes an excellent revenge killer with its moves. And many switches will still be hurt badly by Charizard, despite the move selected.

*Just in case people forgot, Roost is not learned by Charizard 5th gen because of the lack of the TM. So roosting off Solar Power damage is not an option this gen. Then again, why run Roost on such a frail Pokemon whose main job is to wreak havoc?

**I'll be posting this in the Charizard section of the Uncharted Territory (as well as submitting it once 5th gen Pokemon strategies are being accepted).

 

[alphatron]

This is the arcanine set I run.

Arcanine @ leftovers
Impish
Flash fire
240 HP
168 def
28 atk
72 speed

Will-o-wisp
Morning Sun
Flare Blitz
Extreme speed

This set is mainly for taking flamethrowers for other grass types you may be using. Flare Blitz is boostged by possible flash fire and of course the sun. Extreme speed is there for priority. Morning Sun actually matters on this set because Arcanine will take more hits. Will-o-wisp isa there for support. This set gets walled hard by Burungeru, but the other pokemon on yor sunny day team should be able to handle him.

Back on shoddy, I ran this EV spread to success too.
240 atk
132 atk
120 def
16 speed

 

[IcyMan28]

I haven't used weather much but I find its often pretty beneficial to put a Water-type on a sun team. If they bring in Politoed you can use their weather against them, and if they try to use your weather against you with boosted Fire Blasts it helps to have an additional resist. While your Grass-types already resist water most are weak to Ice, and vice-versa for your Fire-types. Having a Pokemon that resists both takes a lot of risk out of switching.

Any Pokemon with addition useful resists is always welcome. Thick Fat is a great defensive ability for a rain team, as are Fighting or Ground typings. Anything that can take advantage of reduced Water-type attacks like Steels or Grounds works well.

While weather teams do work, they can sometimes fall apart (ie against a Trick Room team) so having as many Pokemon as possible be able to function well without their ideal weather is a good idea.

How much of your team you want to be super-powerful at the cost of being weather reliant versus playing it safer is really up to you, but running a team that falls to pieces without its weather is madness.

I did consider adding Swampert to the list, as it gains an additional resistance to Water under the sun and isn't hindered at all when running a set of Earthquake / Ice Beam / Stealth Rock / Roar.

Just another sun abuser that could be added to OP which should have been: Victini. With great rounded stats, a good movepool and Victory Star, he can actually deal quite a lot of damage under the sun:

Victini @ Life Orb
Ability: Victory Star
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
-Fire Blast / Blaze Judgement
-Grass Knot
-Shadow Ball / Thunderbolt
-Focus Blast

With Victory Star, Fire Blast becomes 93% accurate and Focus Blast 77%, which is a lot more respectable, but Blaze Judgement is pretty cool, since it's a strong attack with no drawbacks plus 30% chance to burn (I mean, it's almost as good as Sacred Fire). The rest of the moves give Victini maximum coverage. Shadow Ball hits Latias, which Victini WILL have trouble against.

I'm really not sure how I ever managed to overlook this. I'm wondering if Life Gamble is an option on Victini in the sun, should it run a max HP set. I'll definitely include this though, along with a physical version.

 

[charhazzard]

Choosing a good rapid spinner seems to be big a problem when building a Sunday team.

 

[TickingSeedotBomb]

as the OP posted Donphan is a great choice. Removes the water weakness and has a priority in the name of Ice Shard. HE also gets EQ and Stealth rock. try out Donphan.

 

[MarsVolta]

Ok so I wanna talk about Doredia.

Ive been using a sun team for a while and tried out a lot of sweepers. But it started to really kick off when I put Doredia on my team. I used:

Doredia
Leaf Guard/Chlorophyll @ Leftovers
Bold Nature
252 Hp/252 Def/6 SpD
Giga Drain
Hidden Power Fire
Butterfly Dance
Sleep Powder

First of all, this is more like a tank than a sweeper but I found that with this spread, it's ridiculously easy to get to +6. First of all, max def allows you survive so much shit you'd never imagine. Dragons can't 2hko with unboosted outrage, Tyranitar's crunch and stone edge are the same. After enough boosts, most SE special attacks don't even come close to 2hkos and only stab SE attacks kill this. Sleep powder makes it easier to set up, but you have to use it wisely to eliminate a sure counter. Heatran for example completely walls this and even at +6 will beat it. Therefore it's smart to save it for him and have a solid counter on your team. Shandera is another one, but because of shadow tag, you just have to sleep and try to take it out. Suprisingly, I actually beat them a couple of times if sleep lasts long enough though I forgot what I had to get up to in dances. I used chlorophyll at first because for a sun team, it can switch into water attacks and earthquakes and do a quick sleep. Even with no speed EVs, it hits 430 speed in the sun. However, when I started using leaf guard, I found it to be much better. Now you can set up on pokemon like Blissey and other walls that will try to status you. Toxic was a real problem when I had chlorophyll, though thunderwave was actually managable because at +6 with sun, you still hit a ridiculous speed.

So ya, I strongly advocate this set. I've used it and got a huge number of 6-0s just because many people can't handle this once it gets enough boosts. The other reason why I think leaf guard is better is because the initial answer to this for people who don't have shandera or Heatran is to send in Nattorei/Dragonite/Blissey and try to status it and this gives you like 3 turns of extra boosts when they realize they can't hurt you at all. Very effective set. If anyone doubts it, I recomend you try it for yourself.

 

[Benlisted]

Choosing a good rapid spinner seems to be big a problem when building a Sunday team.

Not especially. If you run a lead able to prevent setup like a Magic coat user or MH Taunt, then the opponent cannot get hazards up off the bat and will have to rely on doing so when you give them momentum - which with an offensive Sun team should rarely happen. Even so, with Venusaur you do not fear T-Spikes, and while running only 2x weak Fires the weakness can be counteracted with insane attack. Its only if you choose to run a 4x weak that it really becomes necessary.

 

[alphatron]

Unlike solarbeam, why not opt for Petal Dance on that set? Getting locked into a bad attacking type that gets 4x resisted by a lot of things isn't so bad if you get rid of all potential threats, and-


Seriously, how effective is the new giga drain? I've tried running it with mixed growth tangrowth before...

 

[Benlisted]

Unlike solarbeam, why not opt for Petal Dance on that set? Getting locked into a bad attacking type that gets 4x resisted by a lot of things isn't so bad if you get rid of all potential threats, and-


Seriously, how effective is the new giga drain? I've tried running it with mixed growth tangrowth before...

On Venusaur I find it very effective. Eliminate anything that resists before locking in and you're fine, same as with Outrage. And Giga Drain may as well be used over Energy Ball on all those who have it - 5 less BP in exchange for health recovery is well worth it.

 

[Gabe]

Choosing a good rapid spinner seems to be big a problem when building a Sunday team.

Donphan works pretty well.

 

[Farewell]

Celebi does get Synthesis in 4th Generation Move Tutor, add event Nasty Plot, Move Tutor Earth Power, and the Giga Drain/Solar Beam TM, it can do quite well for itself lasting fairly long and having decent coverage.

Cherrim's pre-evo gets Leech Seed at level 10 and Helping Hand at level 13, which is an asset to 2v2 and 3v3, especially on the turn it will die since the move has a priority; additionally it can use Nature Power [Breeding] like Shiftry to get EQ and take advantage of Flower Gift's Attack boost (while hitting multiple foes, and missing teammates like Charizard / Shaymin-S / Balloon holders).

Cherrim Multi-battle Support: @ Leftovers / Focus Sash
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD [344 HP; 420 SpD]
Calm (+SpD, - SpA)
Flower Gift

Helping Hand
Aromatherapy
Leech Seed
Healing Beam

Aromatherapy and Healing Beam both come from Blissey / Chimeco. Power up your allies' moves, heal your team's status problems, and heal your target ally. Leech Seed is for damage and to heal your teammate when Cherrim is KOed or switches out. IF CHERRIM IS USED WITH GROUDON; HOLDING A BALLOON allows it to Helping Hand/switch-in while maintaining an Immunity to Earthquake.
................

To Be fair Cherrim can fair quite well in 1v1 Combat with Sun Support:

Cherrim: @ Leftovers
252 HP / 176 Atk / 80 SpD [344 HP; 300 Attack ; 355 Special Defense under the Sun]
Gentle or Sassy (+SpD, - Def) or (+SpD, - Spe)
Flower Gift

Growth
Seed Bomb
Nature Power [Earthquake]
Weather Ball [Fire]

Although Cherrim is not making an investment into Special Attack, Growth will allow Weather Ball to deal decent damage after 1 use, and significant damage there after, plus Cherrim's Attack will reach 600 allowing good combined coverage with Grass + Ground + Fire. Keep in mind, Cherrim is the only user of Weatherball capable of using Earthquake (Nature Power), and thus has good coverage without requiring Hidden Power's weaker damage output, thus excusing the need for Special Attack investment as would be necessary for Hidden Power. This set is not a great set; simply an option in NU [paired with Vulpix] to show that it can handle itself decently.

 

[Ech0ez]

Unlike solarbeam, why not opt for Petal Dance on that set? Getting locked into a bad attacking type that gets 4x resisted by a lot of things isn't so bad if you get rid of all potential threats, and-

Let's talk about some "4x resists" shall we?

Dragonite
With 184 HP EVs and a neutral nature it can always live two Petal Dances after SR and KO back with Fire Blast. Offensive variants that aren't running a -Sp.Def nature can survive two Petal Dances with Stealth Rock in play, but it's not the greatest of chances. So he's our first actual threat.

Forretress
49.4% - 58.5% or 32.2% - 38.1%
To physical and special variants respectively. Shouldn't even be alive against a Sun team anyway.

Heatran
The only sure-fire counter to Venusaur, pun intended. Besides the fact it dies to HP Ground or EQ should Venusaur have that, but I digress. It's immune to Sludge Bomb and HP Fire and take 38.1% - 44.6% from Petal Dance with no defensive investment. So make the threat list a grand two Pokemon.

Nattorei
If this is still alive against a Sun team when you're going for the sweep, you may want to reconsider your team choice. Oh and lol HP Fire.

Salamence
Takes 42.3% - 49.8% from a +2 Petal Dance. That's a 2HKO with SR, and it can't even risk switching in thanks to Sludge Bomb.

Skarmory
Easily trapped and killed by both Magnezone and Shandera. Against a Sun team it should be dead regardless of trapping incredibly quickly. Can't even risk coming on Venusaur until after it's already locked into Petal Dance thanks to HP Fire. But yeah you're right, Skarm may get to switch in and...
46.7% - 54.8% against physically defensive Skarm
31.7% - 37.4% against specially defensive Skarm
And if Venusaur gets to +4, well good luck with that.

Urugamosu
We've got an actual threat here! It takes 35.7% - 41.8% from Petal Dance and can obviously KO back with Bug Buzz, but it's 2HKOed with Stealth Rock in play and OHKOed by Sludge Bomb.

Yeah, some pretty terrifying 4x resisters right there. Don't even get me started on those crazy 2x resist Pokemon; some of them can't even take any hits! They'll show that Venusaur who's boss!

Seriously what on earth are you afraid of? In "OU" the only things you need to be scared of Petal Dancing against are all either dead by that point against any half decent Sun team anyway, dead after two Petal Dances regardless, or dead after two Petal Dances with entry hazards in play. The only things you should be scared of are Urugamosu, Heatran, Dragonite, weather inducers and opposing Chlorophyll users. The weather inducers all die in the process of stopping your sweep, opposing Chlorophyll users have to be faster and not dead already. Really the only things that are actually "potential threats" are Urugamosu, Heatran and bulky Dragonite and if you haven't already dealt with them before trying to sweep that's your problem. Salamence isn't a shit Pokemon because you locked yourself into Outrage without dealing with their Steels beforehand.

 

[IcyMan28]

Celebi would much rather opt for Recover, as it prevents opposing weather from ruining its healing. As far as Cherrim is concerned, I think it is outclassed by several other sweepers despite the attack boost; it shines in 2v2.

@Above: Good points about Petal Dance.

 

[Benlisted]

Let's talk about some "4x resists" shall we?

Seriously what on earth are you afraid of? In "OU" the only things you need to be scared of Petal Dancing against are all either dead by that point against any half decent Sun team anyway, dead after two Petal Dances regardless, or dead after two Petal Dances with entry hazards in play. The only things you should be scared of are Urugamosu, Heatran, Dragonite, weather inducers and opposing Chlorophyll users. The weather inducers all die in the process of stopping your sweep, opposing Chlorophyll users have to be faster and not dead already. Really the only things that are actually "potential threats" are Urugamosu, Heatran and bulky Dragonite and if you haven't already dealt with them before trying to sweep that's your problem. Salamence isn't a shit Pokemon because you locked yourself into Outrage without dealing with their Steels beforehand.

It's also worth noting that a lot of Sun teams will have more than one chlorophyll sweeper, so even if one does get into the worst possible situation - locked in on one of the threats you mentioned, it should sufficiently weaken it for the other to freely spam its own Grass attack or at worst have scouted the 4x resister.

And in response to those doubting Petal Dance, try pairing it with Growth or Sleep Powder. With double attacking stats even Dragonite will not like taking a Petal Dance, and Sleep Powder offers the ability to neuter one counter.

 

[alphatron]

Very good points about petal dance. Heatran is an overall bother to sun teams anyway. I'll try it out.

Instead of Cresselia, who has no offensive moveset and does nothing aside from sit there and waste time(in my experience both against it and when using it), how does Umbreon fare instead in the defensive department?

 

[Farewell]

IN UBERS Cherrim can easily avoid Groudon's EQ without Protect thanks to Balloon. This allows it to switch in, or use Helping Hand/Swagger.


What do you guys think of Cherrim 1v1 with Sun Support?

To Be fair Cherrim can fair quite well in 1v1 Combat with Sun Support:

Cherrim: @ Leftovers
252 HP / 176 Atk / 80 SpD [344 HP; 300 Attack ; 355 Special Defense under the Sun]
Gentle or Sassy (+SpD, - Def) or (+SpD, - Spe)
Flower Gift

Growth
Seed Bomb
Nature Power [Earthquake]
Weather Ball [Fire]

Although Cherrim is not making an investment into Special Attack, Growth will allow Weather Ball to deal decent damage after 1 use, and significant damage there after, plus Cherrim's Attack will reach 600 allowing good combined coverage with Grass + Ground + Fire. Keep in mind, Cherrim is the only user of Weatherball capable of using Earthquake (Nature Power), and thus has good coverage without requiring Hidden Power's weaker damage output, thus excusing the need for Special Attack investment as would be necessary for Hidden Power. This set is not a great set; simply an option in NU [paired with Vulpix] to show that it can handle itself decently.

 

[IcyMan28]

Very good points about petal dance. Heatran is an overall bother to sun teams anyway. I'll try it out.

Instead of Cresselia, who has no offensive moveset and does nothing aside from sit there and waste time(in my experience both against it and when using it), how does Umbreon fare instead in the defensive department?

How is Umbreon doing more than Cress when it has lower defenses, lower offenses, and lower speed?

Both have boosted Moonlight in the Sun, and while Umbreon sports Yawn, Cresselia has Thunder Wave (which is arguably more useful, given that the majority of chlorophyll users aren't particularly fast should the sun fade).

Cress is also capable of using Dual Screens, Lunar Dance, and a gimmick TrickScarf Set, and provides fighting and ground resistances rather than the less important dark and ghost resistances.

In response, Umbreon has Wish (although this is pretty big, I admit).

Finally, even if Cresselia "does nothing," it does check some top threats quite well (Salamence, Blaziken) and can mirror Umbreon's curse-boosting with a CM set somewhat.

Umbreon checks, what, Alakazam?

It might work, but I think the ground and fighting resistances provided by Cress are more useful.

1v1 Cherrim

Cherrim isn't really anything special outside of 2v2. 300 attack under the sun isn't impressive considering Victreebel and Tangrowth reach almost the same and still have an ability to use beyond that. The special defense is nice, I admit, but it is simply outclassed, IMO.

Grass Arceus is better in Ubers, since it isn't totally shafted when Kyogre appears.

 

[shrang]

Instead of Cresselia, who has no offensive moveset and does nothing aside from sit there and waste time(in my experience both against it and when using it), how does Umbreon fare instead in the defensive department?

And Umbreon has offenses??