Pokémon Greninja

[Terminate421]

No, Hydro Pump>Surf>Scald. Scald is mainly used on defensive Pokemon, and isn't what Greninja is meant for. Greninja's Special Attack still isn't that great, even with Protean STAB and Life Orb, so I think Greninja needs stronger moves to dish off as much damage as possible; this especially matters if you aren't running 252 EVs in Special Attack.

I've been running him with Scald and choice specs and so far I've had little issue. His damage output is through the roof and his ability to cause burns is efficient enough to warrant use over Surf. Avoiding Collateral damage onto my team mate is also a nice bonus. It's 10 bp, not much at all really.

 

[Magicfire]

But if you don't have any valid arguments left, I'm happy to end this discussion here.

Your only argument is that Hidden Power Grass hits Rotom-Wash better, and that was it. I'm also more than happy to end this here; since your team struggles with Rotom-Wash, I suggest a Grass-type like Breloom or Venusaur instead of wasting coverage and/or momentum.

Thank you, and have a nice day.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Doesn't Dark Pulse net a guaranteed 2HKO after stealth rock against defensive rotom? Doesn't scarf rotom OHKO you with practically any electric attack? I guess it could be used against assault vest rotom. I don't see the point of using HP grass just to defeat one set of one pokemon, when you can use U-turn to keep momentum after a revenge kill or HP fire to defeat ferrothorn and scizor.

252 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 264-312 (92.3 - 109%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Don't need to mention that defensive Rotom-W is the preferred set more than 90% of the time.

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Rotom-W: 109-130 (35.8 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Again, nope.

Rotom-W is not just any pokemon. It's the most used pokemon in OU, and normally has a very favorable matchup against Greninja. The fact that you can turn this matchup completely into Greninjas favor is more than enough reason to use it. Again, I never said it was better than U-turn or HP Fire, just that it's just as viable.

Your only argument is that Hidden Power Grass hits Rotom-Wash better, and that was it. I'm also more than happy to end this here; since your team struggles with Rotom-Wash, I suggest a Grass-type like Breloom or Venusaur instead of wasting coverage and/or momentum.

Thank you, and have a nice day.

Well, I guess you didn't read my posts at all then. I also assume that you in fact don't have any valid arguments left then considering you're ending this discussion already.

 

[Magicfire]

Well, I guess you didn't read my posts at all then. I also assume that you in fact don't have any valid arguments left then considering you're ending this discussion already.

252 HP and 252 SpD Rotom-Wash? Who does that? And also, you were the one who suggested ending this discussion. And also, Thunderbolt.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

252 HP and 252 SpD Rotom-Wash? Who does that? And also, you were the one who suggested ending this discussion. And also, Thunderbolt.

Apologies, here's the accurate calc for standard Rotom-W:

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 99-118 (32.5 - 38.8%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I never suggested anything, but if you have nothing else left to bring up there's no point going on with this discussion. Your point is just invalid and you even failed to read what my point was, so I don't see why you're still replying.

 

[Hidious]

Where exactly are you getting those calcs and how does defensive rotom have max special defense? Here are the real calcs:

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 136-161 (44.7 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Rotom-W Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 338-398 (118.1 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 264-312 (92.3 - 109%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Ok, so greninja won't always be OHKO'd by a scarfed rotom volt switch if stealth rock isn't up, but it will die to life orb recoil when the rotom-wash player switches to whatever it wants.

 

[JustARandomPlayer]

HP Fire is MUCH more useful, as it stops Ferrothorn from setting up all over you as well as hitting other important steels for SE damage, and as the above poster says, Rotom-W is much better dealt with by Grass types with Grass Knot providing the same or better damage output on every other water.

 

[EtherDrive]

correct me if im wrong, but doesn't ice beam outdamage grass knot on Gyarados, seeing as how he doesn't resist Ice type attacks

and the discussion about HP Grass vs Grass Knot has been discussed already. If you continue to refuse to believe Grass knot is the better option, then continue on doing that

Rotom-W is the ONLY Pokemon that Hidden Power Grass explicitly outdamages Grass Knot for super-effective damage that's relevant in OU. With Hydro Pump's nerf a max power Grass Knot is Greninja's strongest move. It's tempting to run Hidden Power Grass, I understand the desire, but there's a universal loss of damage AND coverage. It's not worth it, let one of your five teammates take care of Rotom.

^^^^

 

[Magicfire]

correct me if im wrong, but doesn't ice beam outdamage grass knot on Gyarados, seeing as how he doesn't resist Ice type attacks

and the discussion about HP Grass vs Grass Knot has been discussed already. If you continue to refuse to believe Grass knot is the better option, then continue on doing that

Well, Grass Knot is 120 BP and Ice Beam is only 90 BP.

 

[EtherDrive]

Oh shit I forgot about protean when I thought about that zZzZz 180 to 135

 

[AOPSUser]

correct me if im wrong, but doesn't ice beam outdamage grass knot on Gyarados, seeing as how he doesn't resist Ice type attacks

and the discussion about HP Grass vs Grass Knot has been discussed already. If you continue to refuse to believe Grass knot is the better option, then continue on doing that

Ice Beam: 90 BP
Grass Knot: 120 BP

I'm not sure about any Grass-type moves on Greninja really, it's not supposed to fight things like Gastrodon anyways, and it can just always U-Turn out of walls. Grass Knot hits:

-Tyranitar
-Gyarados
-Water/Ground mons

harder than your other moves. I'd rather just use something like Mega Venusaur or Tangrowth alongside it if you really have trouble with those mons. If you don't you don't even need Grass Knot in the first place.

 

[haunter]

252 SpA Rotom-W Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 338-398 (118.1 - 139.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 264-312 (92.3 - 109%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Ok, so greninja won't always be OHKO'd by a scarfed rotom volt switch if stealth rock isn't up, but it will die to life orb recoil when the rotom-wash player switches to whatever it wants.

Actually, this is not accurate. Since Protean removes the Water type from Greninja when it uses Dark Pulse, Rotom's Volt Switch, assuming that Rotom runs max SpA (which is very rare right now), is only doing 46.1 - 54.5% to a timid Greninja. Thunderbolt does ~60%, meaning that one vs. one the Greninja user will usually win.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

It blows my mind that people would in fact think about using Grass Knot over HP Grass when Rotom-W, the main target of a Grass-move in XY OU, considering it's the most used pokemon amongst 1850+ ranked players, takes little to no damage from Grass Knot, when HP Grass is a solid 2HKO. I've shown before that the only benefit of running Grass Knot is to hit Gyarados harder; the fact that you brought up Jellicent and Hippowdon vs. Greninja just shows that you don't even consider your arguments carefully, Magicfire. Jellicent loses to Dark Pulse regardless of whether you use HP Grass or Grass Knot. Hippowdon, well I needn't explain do I?

Again, I can keep repeating this until people stop coming with horrible arguments like "Well, just let one of your teammates take care of Rotom-W", but HP Grass is definitely just as viable as U-turn or HP Fire or any other filler move. The fact that you can lure Rotom-W and get a solid 2HKO while taking little damage in return because you become a Grass-type, instead of being forced out by Volt Switch (and thus him gaining momentum on your switchin, unless you run both Greninja and Gastrodon or something >.>) is just incredibly useful. The argument that Rotom-W is only one pokemon also makes little sense, when you consider that Rotom-W was used on almost 1/3 teams in last months statistics which is insanely high, and on top of that it will Volt Switch out against Greninja whenever given the opportunity, so getting of a HP Grass is almost guaranteed.

Also Haunter, they were talking about Choice Scarf Rotom-W to counter my argument. Yes, Scarfed Rotom-W in XY OU. I almost couldn't believe it myself.

 

[Hidious]

Actually, this is not accurate. Since Protean removes the Water type from Greninja when it uses Dark Pulse, Rotom's Volt Switch, assuming that Rotom runs max SpA (which is very rare right now), is only doing 46.1 - 54.5% to a timid Greninja. Thunderbolt does ~60%, meaning that one vs. one the Greninja user will usually win.

You are taking it out of context. The first calculation is dark pulse vs defensive rotom. In the last two calcs, I was referring to scarfed rotom vs. Greninja. Rotom would move before greninja, meaning it would still be water type when rotom uses volt switch or t-bolt. Here is the context of the calculations:

Doesn't Dark Pulse net a guaranteed 2HKO after stealth rock against defensive rotom? Doesn't scarf rotom OHKO you with practically any electric attack? I guess it could be used against assault vest rotom. I don't see the point of using HP grass just to defeat one set of one pokemon, when you can use U-turn to keep momentum after a revenge kill or HP fire to defeat ferrothorn and scizor.

 

[haunter]

You are taking it out of context. The first calculation is dark pulse vs defensive rotom. In the last two calcs, I was referring to scarfed rotom vs. Greninja. Rotom would move before greninja, meaning it would still be water type when rotom uses volt switch or t-bolt. Here is the context of the calculations:

From your post, the only context that I was able to figure out, was a timid LO Greninja against a 252 HP Rotom (so likely not a scarfed one). Regardless, your assumption that scarf Rotom can OHKO Greninja with any electric move is only valid if said Rotom is switching into a predicted water move. Otherwise, Greninja will always lose its water typing, by the time Rotom comes in. Finally, and for completeness, scarf-Rotom takes 56.1 - 66.5% from LO Greninja's dark pulse, so it's a risky switch in, to say the least.

 

[Hidious]

From your post, the only context that I was able to figure out, was a timid LO Greninja against a 252 HP Rotom (so likely not a scarfed one). Regardless, your assumption that scarf Rotom can OHKO Greninja with any electric move is only valid if said Rotom is switching into a predicted water move. Otherwise, Greninja will always lose its water typing, by the time Rotom comes in. Finally, and for completeness, scarf-Rotom takes 56.1 - 66.5% from LO Greninja's dark pulse, so it's a risky switch in, to say the least.

Rotom-wash could also come in to revenge kill greninja after it used hydro pump. Both mons are common leads so it could use volt switch on greninja at the start of a match. My real point was that there is little reason using HP grass when a dark pulse 2HKO's defensive rotom after stealth rock and so does HP grass.

 

[Magicfire]

So if Rotom-Wash can't take repeated Dark Pulses, then doesn't that show that there is little need for Hidden Power Grass? Few Rotom are Specially defensive nowadays.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

So if Rotom-Wash can't take repeated Dark Pulses, then doesn't that show that there is little need for Hidden Power Grass? Few Rotom are Specially defensive nowadays.

For one, HP Grass hits 50% harder than Dark Pulse. Two, using Dark Pulse means you take neutral damage from both Rotom-W's STABs, while using HP Grass let's you resist them. Since Rotom-W will probably go for Volt Switch against Greninja, this is how much damage you will take if you go for HP Grass first:

4 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 52-62 (18.1 - 21.6%) -- possible 5HKO

Factor in Life Orb, and Greninja takes 31.6% damage max. Meanwhile:

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 205-244 (67.4 - 80.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

A minimum of 67.4% against Rotom-W with HP Grass, where Dark Pulse fails to 2HKO without SR, and even then Rotom-W has a chance to live two hits.

In a lead matchup between the two pokes it's clearly beneficial to have HP Grass, instead of having to use Dark Pulse or be forced out (generally the latter will be the case). However, having HP Grass also eliminates all need for predictions later on in the battle. Rotom-W can easily come in on Hydro Pump or Ice Beam and force you out, and even Dark Pulse won't 2HKO if you predict correctly assuming Stealth Rocks aren't up. If you have HP Grass, Rotom-W literally has nothing on Greninja barring the rare T-Wave. There's also the element of surprise, as Greninja don't often run HP Grass yet. Still don't see the benefits of HP Grass?

 

[SuperSei]

On Greninja is it worth using Scald Over Surf?

 

[bstella1]

Scald is a more defensive move, so no. Greninja can't afford to stick around and spam Scald until the burn sticks, and even if you luck out and burn a physical attacker on the switch they're still going to punch big holes in Greninja because he's so fragile. Greninja wants to hit hard and fast to kill things before they kill him, and going for lower base power undermines this goal.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Scald is a more defensive move, so no. Greninja can't afford to stick around and spam Scald until the burn sticks, and even if you luck out and burn a physical attacker on the switch they're still going to punch big holes in Greninja because he's so fragile. Greninja wants to hit hard and fast to kill things before they kill him, and going for lower base power undermines this goal.

Well, you have to think about this: you're only sacrificing 10 base power but you get a 30% chance to burn in return. Let's look at Gyarados: not many players would choose Aqua Tail over Waterfall just for the 10 extra base power, because you sacrifice perfect accuracy and the 30% flinch chance. For Greninja it's pretty much the same. Let's say you burn a Rotom-W switchin with Scald (a pretty common scenario I'd think). I'd take that anyday over the 10 extra base power that Surf provides. It's when you compare Hydro Pump to Scald that it gets more complicated, as the power difference is noticeable. Unless people can show me some relevant calcs that show that Surf gets significant 2HKO's/OHKO's that Scald doesn't, I'd probably pick Scald over Surf.

 

[November Blue]

Agreed. Scald is a way better choice than Surf.

Ferrothorn could switch in to wall Greninja, but does it want to get burnt? How about Tyranitar?

 

[Hidious]

I think scald can be an option over surf, but hydro pump should be the primary option +45 BP over scald factoring in stab is pretty huge despite the mediocre accuracy. You are better off using hp fire to deal with ferrothorn and you will probably not get that many chances to scald during a match with his poor defenses. It's better off going more offensive

 

[RabidChipmunk]

I think scald can be an option over surf, but hydro pump should be the primary option +45 BP over scald factoring in stab is pretty huge despite the mediocre accuracy. You are better off using hp fire to deal with ferrothorn and you will probably not get that many chances to scald during a match with his poor defenses. It's better off going more offensive

But that's the thing: Scald isn't necessarily a defensive move. It's a decently powerful move that can be spammed willy-nilly because, even if what is switching into you resists Water, it won't like taking a burn. Scald is not only broken powerful, it also has enormous utility. So yeah, Scald is better than Surf every time.

 

[tango1075]

What nature are we talking about that could fully utilize scald? Modest with maxed speed and spA and like 4HP?