Metagame Godly Gift

[iLlama]

Have you ever played godly gift?
Sorry that I'm getting angry now, but when you have played it you should know how crazy high the damage output of Stallbreakers like the mentioned Pikachu is.
Here the calc with 150 Attack (Groudon, Deoxys-N, Zekrom...), assuming Gothitelle tricked Pikachu a choice scarf before it could attack:
252 Atk Pikachu Volt Tackle vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gothitelle: 228-268 (66.2 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Gothitelle weakened Pikachu by removing its light ball, but Pikachu is still alive, has only taken recoil damage from Volt Tackle, while Gothitelle has to switch out (but is severely crippled) or die. Gengar-Mega is easily OHKOed, even without a Light Ball.

Also, do you really want to run Gengar-Mega or Gothitelle just for potentially taking out one opposing mon (and even that isn't sure), when other gods like Deo-A, Arceus, Ho-ho/Lugia or Kyu-W giving your team much better stat boosts?

(the only reason I want to be able to use STag Wobbufet is to be able to use 190 HP Toxapex and Shuckle, because it is fun, just like using Shuckle as a god :D)

I would prefer if you didn't call out a council member who has obviously played and tested Godly Gift in last gen and before it became OMotM. Shadow Tag is uncompetitive as it emphasizes playing a passive playstyle and being able to allow you to eliminate single threats to your team or certain Pokémon that the other team depends on for their cores. I'm not going into more detail over this and personal quarrels with this ruling is not an acceptable argument. Shadow Tag is banned and will remain banned, end of discussion.

Edit: I'm adding a blacklisted discussion tab in the intro and Shadow Tag will hopefully be it's only resident. Any more discussion of the STag ban will be removed.

Edit 2: Now that the Mega Sableye ban has gone through on the ladder, I will be extending the suspect one day, so it will be ending on Saturday at 11:59 P.M. EDT. The requirements for voting in the suspect have been lowered from 78 GXE to 77 GXE.

 

[Pipotchi]

Already discussed all of these in chat, so I'll just reiterate key points. Smeargle and Linoone can both run the same items so the point on Focus Sash isn't relevant. Linoone, for one, has better bulk than Smeargle no matter how poor it is and also has a 100 base speed stat, making it more useful outside of e speed (or with e speed and a speed boost berry as you suggested) than smeargle simply being able to hit more threats without relying as much on priority. As you stated yourself, Belly Drum is a significant part of Linoone's kit, which when paired with a better speed stat and gluttony, can be more useful than running smeargle in various situations, such as when webs are on your side, when psychic terrain is up, etc. I agree that on the priority side, Smeargle is far better than Linoone as well as with type coverage, but does that mean that Linoone is not a good secondary option with its own benefits? No, which is why it's ranked as B+. It's still a very effective attack-receiving Pokémon and thus it's ranking is justified. Also, Scarf Tyranitar is not even remotely relevant in the current metagame as it doesn't outpace anything the is relatively significant as far as I know. Plus, Band Tyranitar is simply better. Anyways, it's rank is not changing.

Scarf tyranitar is totally relevant in this meta- being a good mon for the speed slot for base 90 gods, and is used to trap swellow and smeargle for those teams. Lets look at Linoone when extremespeed is taken away from it (in psychic terrain, the one advantage it has over smeargle). You will have a 100 speed mon with non-stab grass/ghost coverage, and struggles to even get the ohkos on uninvested mons even with 180 atk, such as Lele which either outspeeds adamant Linoone or survives a shadow claw. Its viability entirely hinges on its priority, without espeed this mon would not be ranked, and in situations where its espeed will be taken away from it its not going to be outspeeding and putting in work against the incredibly fast psyspam teams that psychic terrain will be utilizing. In a theorymon sense linoone has uses over Smeargle, but I think in practice it is not the case. I think the overlap is way too huge to justify such a high ranking above the likes of KyuB, Manaphy and Muk-A.

I'm not sure how it being difficult to wish pass to, which it isn't, justifies a drop to D tier. Lanturn is able to check Elec Terrain teams, Rain teams, Pikachu, Mega Blastoise, Tapu Fini, Suicune, Araquanid, etc. I'd say that more than gives it its place in rank B.

Personally I have never seen this mon in the tier and I watch a lot of games and play a fair bit, and thats over 2 generations. I would love to see some matches of it, because I cannot see this deserving B rank when it cant even beat a lot of these mons 1v1, meanwhile can only loosely check a few mons on this list depending on whether it inherited defense or special defense. This feels like a sentimental addition to the tier list, or perhaps something that was theorymonned. A resttalk seems like its only usable set thanks to bad offenses making it unable to hit the mons it wants to switch into hard enough to beat them, and that sounds very questionable for B rank

I can see Azumarill being higher on the list, although a slow priority user isn't exactly the best option in this tier, especially when it can get walled by PDon, one of the best gods currently, and can be shutdown by extremely common Pokémon such as Tangrowth, Smeargle, Unaware mons, etc. I don't think B+ is a good place for it, but B- should be fine.

Okay

First, Nidoqueen's bulk is barely better than Nidoking's and calcs utilizing extremely specific scenarios, such as +1 Comfey HP Fire with Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes isn't going to help your case. Adamant Smeargle with Life Orb cannot OHKO Nidoking without hazards and since every Smeargle runs Fake Out, this point isn't significant in most situations. Earth Power ohkoes Toxapex so the fact that Nidoking is 2hkoed by Scald (with high rolls mind you) is not significant. Nidoking is however faster than Nidoqueen, with a base 85 speed stat in a generation and meta that has a high focus on speed. Unlike Nidoqueen, Nidoking naturally outspeeds Pokemon such as Buzzwole, Dragonite, Gyarados, Heatran, Hoopa-U, Mamoswine, and Xurkitree, all of which have at least some, if not a good presence in the meta. Although I am willing to give Nidoqueen a spot in B-, anything higher seems a little much. So Nidoqueen being outright better than Nidoking and deserving of A rank seems a little ridiculous

I gave a lot of good, relevant examples of where Nidoqueens bulk is more useful than Nidokings, can we not zone in on the comfey example which was more a case of pointing out how generically weak it is and say that all the examples are irrelevant. Heres the Nidoking calc for LO extremespeed:
252+ Atk Life Orb Smeargle Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 298-351 (98.3 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
The Toxapex calc is relevant as it allows Nidoqueen to switch directly into the pokemon it is threatening, plus with stealth rock and the added burn chance it is an over 75% chance of a 2hko, so it wont be low rolls.
Regarding the examples of mons that naturally outspeed Nidoqueen but underspeed Nidoking, there are very few mons and also a number of them will either run speed or are irrelevant examples: Hoopa-U and Xurkitree both run speed stats, Mamoswine has priority that will ohko if running an attack stat over a speed stat, Buzzwole runs a bulkup set without speed, the only mons that I can see that have relevance are Dragonite, Gyarados, Heatran sometimes, and Kingdra. Nidoking needs to be running a Timid set to make any of this relevant though, and this will cut into its strength in its primary role of wallbreaker.

Golduck's role is not through swift swim, but through cloud nine, which beats PDon for rain teams. This is also an incredibly niche role and only works in certain scenarios, which is exactly why it is rank D. Zekrom can beat Giratina and Toxapex, but loses to extremely common teammates in Clefable and Mega Sableye, so although it can beat part of a decently common core, it is still very limited.

Okay

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Since no one posted reqs yet, I'll be the first one to submit.

Reasoning? Godly Gift Mega Sableye was pretty much gen 6 Mega Sableye without the Tapus running around, except in Godly Gift it has an exclusive move, called Metal Burst. This made almost every possible hard hitters that rely on power alone have to 1HKO Mega Sableye (which is nearly impossible) or risk getting 1HKO'd. Mega Sableye can also run Calm Mind variant to answer special boosters that try to overpower Msab, while the Physical boosters can be handled by Foul Play or Will-o-wisp. And remember that Mega Sableye is not Tauntable. This makes the answers become very limited, I think to the point that only Clefable counters all the set. Also, Mega Sableye is one of the mons that can be slapped in almost any team (the other is Toxapex).

Because of those reasons above, I'll be voting ban.

 

[RyanGosling]

Why isn't there any Sleep Clause with all the bulky spore users running around ?

 

[viol and bass]

Tapu bulu can run a somewhat effective special attack set that has a few advantages over physical sets. For one thing, it gets solid fairy STAB which it's been dying for. Secondly it gets calm mind and solid steel coverage in focus blast or Z-focus blast if you choose to go that route. Finally, it doesn't really care about burn which makes it a much better switch-in for Water-types.

Tapu Bulu @ Leftovers / Fightinium Z
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Giga Drain
- Dazzling Gleam
- Focus Blast

 

[Isaiah]

Why isn't there any Sleep Clause with all the bulky spore users running around ?

There is a sleep clause, it's based on OU clauses

 

[RyanGosling]

There is a sleep clause, it's based on OU clauses

Nevermind (edited)

 

[Lcass4919]

for viability rankings, i think for a god, shuckle should be ranked as C. I know god shuckle is seen as a meme, due to only donating two good stats, but shuckle provides stall with two super tanky pokemon. allowing stall to tank stupidly powerful things like specs swellow with deo A's attack. or helps mons like buzzswole or slowbro-mega set up to sweep teams. its incredibly hard to break a well built shuckle team, and im sure a lot of people will agree with me. shuckles niche is passing 3 things, 230 defense and special defense, and giving ridiculously slow speed to help pivot-mons like tornadus-T pivot better. on top of that, shuckle is very tanky, a good swellow check in itself, and stall doesnt mind passing weak attack and special attack to mons. im not going to argue with anything above C, dispite personally thinking its worthy of B or even A. but i think its the only non-uber god viable in GG, and is far from a meme/gimmick.

 

[Knuckstrike]

DO NOT BAN

Even though sableye got an obvious and easy buff, I feel like both sides of the battle (offense and stall) got a fairly equal buff and therefore it is not overcentralizing.
Next to that, there are many pokemon in the tier that, on stall teams, are fighting for the HP slot. In addition, it also takes up a mega slot. It is true that sableye works well, however it also has a large teambuilding cost. A number of pokemon that work on stall and would like Arceus/Giratina HP are Sableye, Toxapex, Skarmory, Scizor, Ferrothorn, Kartana, Starmie and Venusaur-mega. Running Sableye on speed is also an option, but removes the threat of metal burst and makes it more predictable. Sableye gets OHKOd by most stallbreakers on deo-a teams such as Swellow, Araquanid, Koko, etc depending on sets. Subs set up on it. Stall is prominent in the meta already, so a stallbreaker-utility mon on your team just to handle sableye-like teams does not feel like a waste of a moveslot.

 

[Schpoonman]

Can someone illustrate to me why Sableye in Speed is a good idea? I'm of the opinion that on Arceus and faster Fairium Z Magearna is possibly the best Pokemon in the metagame, and given that Mega Heracross, Marowak, and several others I'm not thinking of right now still exists and are generally way more threatening I genuinely don't understand why it's even a talking point for Sableye, especially because HP is so damn good.

 

[Knuckstrike]

Can someone illustrate to me why Sableye in Speed is a good idea?

Because sableye is still a good mon. It's one of the few mons that benefits from speed on stall, getting potential fast knock offs/wows off before a sub. HP would be better, but HP is a spot fought over on stall teams.

 

[iLlama]

DO NOT BAN

Even though sableye got an obvious and easy buff, I feel like both sides of the battle (offense and stall) got a fairly equal buff and therefore it is not overcentralizing.
Next to that, there are many pokemon in the tier that, on stall teams, are fighting for the HP slot. In addition, it also takes up a mega slot. It is true that sableye works well, however it also has a large teambuilding cost. A number of pokemon that work on stall and would like Arceus/Giratina HP are Sableye, Toxapex, Skarmory, Scizor, Ferrothorn, Kartana, Starmie and Venusaur-mega. Running Sableye on speed is also an option, but removes the threat of metal burst and makes it more predictable. Sableye gets OHKOd by most stallbreakers on deo-a teams such as Swellow, Araquanid, Koko, etc depending on sets. Subs set up on it. Stall is prominent in the meta already, so a stallbreaker-utility mon on your team just to handle sableye-like teams does not feel like a waste of a moveslot.

View attachment 83324

On stall there are only two optimal Pokemon that fight for the HP slot, being Mega Sableye and Toxapex, however it's almost always better to give Toxapex the HP stat because Mega Sableye in the Speed slot is also pretty good considering it can run various movesets from utility, to calm mind, to metal burst. Mega Sableye is the best possible mega for stall teams so using it as the team's mega slot is an obvious choice. No other mega comes close to comparing to Mega Sableye's presence on stall teams besides Mega Diancie in the last generation, which by the way is the best Pokemon for checking Mega Sableye and is not currently released. Skarmory, Scizor, Ferrothorn, Kartana, Starmie, and Mega Venusaur are so heavily outclassed by Toxapex and Mega Sableye there is no comparison. Besides that, there is no reason to use Kartana, Starmie, and Mega Venusaur in the HP slot for stall teams as they basically waste the slot due to their position in the meta or it just not making sense to use these Pokemon in the HP slot on a stall team. An argument could have been made for Mega Venusaur last generation, but Toxapex is simply a much better Pokemon with better utility options. There are probably only a couple Stallbreakers that can OHKO Mega Sableye (after heavy setup), or really any stall mons. On the other hand, wallbreakers have the potential to OHKO Mega Sableye without a boosted HP stat, however if Mega Sableye has a boosted HP stat, they have to deal super effective damage and/or use Choice items in order to actually break it, otherwise they are losing to Metal Burst. Swellow cannot OHKO Mega Sableye and Araquanid barely OHKOes Mega Sableye, in fact it's a roll either way if the Mega Sableye is the common OU spread with invest in both defenses. Tapu Koko does OHKO Sableye, however only if it isn't boosted by Giratina, but then again it's a Fairy-type utilizing either Life Orb or a Choice item. Sub Pokemon set up on it only if Mega Sableye cannot break the sub with any of its common attack options, i.e. Foul Play, Night Shade, etc. As far as I know, there is probably around 5 stallbreakers that don't lose to Mega Sableye besides Fairy-types like Clefable. Gliscor doesn't lose to Mega Sableye, but it doesn't beat it as Foul Play and Metal Burst both prevent it from setting up if it is Swords Dance. Manaphy beats Mega Sableye, however a stall team utilizing Toxapex can easily check/counter it. Volcarona beats it but gets completely shut down by Toxapex. I'm sure there are a couple other Stallbreakers out there that can manage this as well, but as you can tell, the list is extremely limited and easily managed by Mega Sableye's teammates, which would constitute it being overcentralizing.

 

[Knuckstrike]

On stall there are only two optimal Pokemon that fight for the HP slot, being Mega Sableye and Toxapex, however it's almost always better to give Toxapex the HP stat because Mega Sableye in the Speed slot is also pretty good considering it can run various movesets from utility, to calm mind, to metal burst..

I think the CM set is even worse than in regular OU where it's fallen out of style for over a year. As you said toxapex would rather have the HP slot, meaning metal burst sableye isn't working either most cases. Inheriting giratina HP is therefore not relevant, you can't use an argument that giratina HP metal burst sableye plus giratina HP toxapex wall a set of mons because you don't have both. Also metal burst has limited pp, beating it with a sd gliscor or other set up mon is a given even if it doesn't OHKO it: 16pp is not a lot and is easily outstallable (not that I think sd gliscor is good but just as an example).
I'm not sure why you're mentioning night shade as sableye never runs it and shouldn't either.

Most mons listed don't need to OHKO it. It's fairly well doable to burn a sableye or get it at 80%/90% at some point, after which a lot of stallbreakers start killing it. Or getting up rocks with a rocks groudon, rocks marowak or something else that sableye can't switch into or can't even beat.
Even if it doesn't kill and does 80-90%, it means sableye is useless for the rest of the game regardless.

Anyway, how is sableye much better here than in regular OU where it is allowed? Seems like there's more mons here that beat it, rather than it having a buff that lets it beat mons it usually couldn't.

 

[iLlama]

I think the CM set is even worse than in regular OU where it's fallen out of style for over a year. As you said toxapex would rather have the HP slot, meaning metal burst sableye isn't working either most cases. Inheriting giratina HP is therefore not relevant, you can't use an argument that giratina HP metal burst sableye plus giratina HP toxapex wall a set of mons because you don't have both. Also metal burst has limited pp, beating it with a sd gliscor or other set up mon is a given even if it doesn't OHKO it: 16pp is not a lot and is easily outstallable (not that I think sd gliscor is good but just as an example).
I'm not sure why you're mentioning night shade as sableye never runs it and shouldn't either.

This isn't OU, first and foremost. Godly Gift is a completely different metegame. We're talking about an HP boosted Mega Sableye using a CM set which is completely resonable as a legitimate option. I never said Toxapex would rather have the HP slot, I said Mega Sableye doesn't care if it doens't have the HP slot because it has such insane team support that it can do its job in this generation without boosted HP. That would thus mean that Mega Sableye is inherently better in this generation than the previous one in which it was banned. You don't need both to wall a team, you can have one or the other and beat just about any team out there. SD Gliscor loses to Foul Play so that point on Metal Burst PP is meaningless. Plus stall runs unaware mons, i.e. Clefable, which walls SD Gliscor. I don't see the issue in running Night Shade? If Mega Sableye has boost HP and isn't facing a nomrla type, it breaks sub every single time. Seems like a pretty solid option for handling stallbreakers and setup sweepers that use sub.

Most mons listed don't need to OHKO it. It's fairly well doable to burn a sableye or get it at 80%/90% at some point, after which a lot of stallbreakers start killing it. Or getting up rocks with a rocks groudon, rocks marowak or something else that sableye can't switch into or can't even beat.
Even if it doesn't kill and does 80-90%, it means sableye is useless for the rest of the game regardless.

You brought up how all these mons OHKO Mega Sableye so I refuted your statement by explaining how it's false. I frankly don't care if a Pokemon needs to OHKO it or not, but the fact that the Pokemon I mentioned can't OHKO means that they are losing to Metal Burst, guaranteed. Again with the stallbreakers bit, there are only a few stallbreakers that beat Mega Sableye 1v1, but thanks to Mega Sableye's teammates on stall, i.e. Toxapex, Skarmory, Clefable, Giratina/Arceus, etc., the team itself doesn't care and wins the matchup. How do you get up rocks against Mega Sableye with Groudon or Marowak? By predicting a switch or getting lucky? Mega Sableye doesn't care about either of these Pokemon, especially if it's physically defensive and stall can is more than likely going to force the opposing team into removing hazards with Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes being so common on Mega Sableye stall, if not doing that itself.

Anyway, how is sableye much better here than in regular OU where it is allowed? Seems like there's more mons here that beat it, rather than it having a buff that lets it beat mons it usually couldn't.

Again, this is not OU. There are stronger Pokemon, yes. In theory they should be able to be much better in handling Mega Sableye. However, Mega Sableye also gets boosted stats and teammates with boosted stats, so the playing field doesn't skew into the favor of Mega Sableye's checks. If you would like to know how many legitimate Pokemon can beat Mega Sableye and are also the least inhibited by its common stall teammates, there is Calm Mind Tapu Lele with boosted SpA, Nasty Plot Hoopa-U, SD Alolan Marowak with boosted Atk, Coil Resttalk Zygarde-C, and maybe Tail Glow Xurkitree. So there are 4, maybe 5 Pokemon that can have a legitimate chance of breaking Mega Sableye stall, if it isn't using Dugtrio as well. What Pokemon do Mega Sableye beat with boosted HP that it usually couldn't? Primal Groudon is a pretty good one. Sub or Rest Zygarde, Ho-oh, Choice Band Ttar, etc.

 

[RyanGosling]

I was thinking that AV Entei could be a good pokemon in this meta.

Opponents offense are base 180 unless specified otherwise and I chose 120 base SpD for Entei

252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Entei: 187-222 (43 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Entei Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swellow: 330-390 (126.4 - 149.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swellow: 247-292 (94.6 - 111.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Entei in Psychic Terrain: 267-315 (61.5 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 210-247 (74.7 - 87.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Entei: 101-120 (23.2 - 27.6%) -- 66.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 344-408 (118.2 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Entei in Electric Terrain: 208-247 (47.9 - 56.9%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Tapu Koko: 210-247 (74.7 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Tapu Koko: 113-133 (40.2 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Deoxys-A Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Entei: 184-217 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Deoxys-A: 304-358 (126.1 - 148.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Entei: 346-408 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (150 base SpA)
252+ Atk Entei Sacred Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 204-241 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Entei Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 109-129 (35.8 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Comfey Draining Kiss vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Entei: 49-58 (11.2 - 13.3%) -- possible 8HKO
252+ Atk Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Comfey: 178-211 (58.1 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Entei: 169-201 (38.9 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Entei: 301-355 (69.3 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 249-294 (82.7 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Entei: 145-171 (33.4 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Entei Sacred Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kartana: 520-616 (200 - 236.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Entei: 360-426 (82.9 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio: 285-336 (135 - 159.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio: 153-180 (72.5 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Mimikyu Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Entei: 336-396 (77.4 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Entei Sacred Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mimikyu: 198-234 (78.5 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (high burn chance)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Entei: 127-150 (29.2 - 34.5%) -- 7% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 294-348 (97.6 - 115.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Entei: 214-252 (49.3 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Entei Sacred Fire vs. 20 HP / 0 Def Pinsir: 330-390 (119.5 - 141.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Entei: 211-249 (48.6 - 57.3%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Linoone: 244-288 (67.7 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (burn)

+1 252+ SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Entei: 89-105 (20.5 - 24.1%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ Atk Entei Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 624-736 (200 - 235.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

He's doing well against a lot of tier A and tier B pokemons, deals a lot of damage, has priority, 50% burn chance is great... He needs support against hazards, Water/Ground/Rock attacks. Plus he's immune to burn.

Set

Entei @ Assault Vest
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Stone Edge
- Bulldoze
- Extreme Speed

What do you think ?

 

[Hound dogs]

Toxapex really needs a suspect in my opinion

 

[KyeChimera]

From the many battles that I have done using shuckle with Giratina-O, many people simply don't know how to counter it well enough. I did a LOT of battles, about 80% where people leaving because they couldn't beat it and left around turn 50 because they didn't want to so a stalling battle, about 10% I actually won by knocking out all the pokemon with shuckle, about 9% I won, but I lost my shuckle to a crit, and some others, and I lost the one because shuckle died to a critical hit then the rest of my team got sweeped from the x4 speed x4 SP-A A-Deoxys boosted Slowbro with slackoff for healing all the damage I could deal to it while it was fighting my shuckle.

In my opinion, Shuckle could make -S ranking in buffs and Tie in for a spot for togapex with hp.

A tip for beating this pokemon though, Use taunt. Seriously, using taunt will stop it from getting it's defences up and stop it from using rest/recover (rest is better for getting rid of toxic, and when stalling, that 16pp because 48pp because of the 2 turn sleep), then pummel it down before taunt wears out, or set up so he has to either swap out or commit and hope for the best. Another way is to use a move that forces it to swap (like whirlwind or dragon tail), putting all its hard work away and giving less PP to stall with. Or go with a 100% crit team, as crits can bypass the defence boost shuckles can give themselves (contrary shell smash).

As I've said, this is in my opinion, I haven't gotten too many battles against Mega sable-eyes and Toxapex's, but maybe it could be because they weren't experienced ones with the best movesets, so its why I disregarded them as being good until I saw this thread.

My shuckle.

Shuckle Leftovers
Ability - Contrary
Bold Nature
EVs: 252 HP / 132 Def / 128 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic / String Shot / Power Swap
- Shell Smash
- Rest
- Infestation.

I sometimes like to swap the first move out, depending on what style I want. Toxic = Classic kill em Stall, SS = PP stall, and power swap if I'm feeling evil and wanna take away some power from that x4 boosted mega-heracross. It does have weakness's but like, no one that I have fought has used it to their advantage on purpose.

And you know what, please, tell me the greatness that is Toxapex. I'm being serious.

 

[Pipotchi]

considering deoxys-a is considered fair game i think sableye is fine. there are far too many 180hp options that will break sableye and sableye cores on neutral hits, and the cm set is not particularly popular anymore. rampaging through the tier with deoxys-a only becomes easier and i dont see it leaving due to discussions that have happened about it this gen and last gen, so sableye can stay too. sableye is not even the optimal mon for the hp slot right now which is its best set. the speed set is good but not broken. when it comes to preventing hazards, its something that stall finds very helpful considering how ridiculously offensive this meta is. this gen we got 8 new totally viable fairy mons in koko, magearna, comfey, mimikyu, lele, fini, bulu, and ninetales, they eat up sableyes fairly decently without even necessarily taking up an offensive slot. the only argument that vaguely makes me want to reconsider is metal burst, but realistically there isnt a moveslot for it that allows sableye to keep its other strengths in tact, and will end up being broken by either physical or special sweepers. these sort of inconsistent "counter" moves are less impressive once revealed, and it takes a bit of luck to use as well.
tldr: deoxys teams keep sableye in check and is the most used god by a huge margin, so sableye is fine

DO NOT BAN

also while getting reqs i discovered that atk merciless toxapex is a force. it can punch a lot of defensive mons into dust with a combination of crits and liquidation drops breaking through unaware. this mon is so balanced lel



edit: @ the shuckle above, that was used a lot last gen in low ladder and is generally quite bad, gives up all momentum, cant trap anything it wants, and there are too many situations in which it just loses. like clicking substitute or clicking on your steel pokemon with recovery. shuckle is fine in this tier but not that set

 

[iLlama]

considering deoxys-a is considered fair game i think sableye is fine. there are far too many 180hp options that will break sableye and sableye cores on neutral hits, and the cm set is not particularly popular anymore. rampaging through the tier with deoxys-a only becomes easier and i dont see it leaving due to discussions that have happened about it this gen and last gen, so sableye can stay too. sableye is not even the optimal mon for the hp slot right now which is its best set. the speed set is good but not broken. when it comes to preventing hazards, its something that stall finds very helpful considering how ridiculously offensive this meta is. this gen we got 8 new totally viable fairy mons in koko, magearna, comfey, mimikyu, lele, fini, bulu, and ninetales, they eat up sableyes fairly decently without even necessarily taking up an offensive slot. the only argument that vaguely makes me want to reconsider is metal burst, but realistically there isnt a moveslot for it that allows sableye to keep its other strengths in tact, and will end up being broken by either physical or special sweepers. these sort of inconsistent "counter" moves are less impressive once revealed, and it takes a bit of luck to use as well.
tldr: deoxys teams keep sableye in check and is the most used god by a huge margin, so sableye is fine

DO NOT BAN

also while getting reqs i discovered that atk merciless toxapex is a force. it can punch a lot of defensive mons into dust with a combination of crits and liquidation drops breaking through unaware. this mon is so balanced lel

Broken Pokemon checking/countering/anything other Pokemon that could potentially become broken is not a reason for the original to not be banned, i.e. 'If Mega Sableye is banned then Deoxys-A will be broken, so we can't ban Mega Sableye.' So that you are aware, just because something that is broken beats something else that is really good and potentially broken doesn't mean that the original Pokemon is not broken. If Deoxys-A and other Pokemon have the potential to be broken if Mega Sableye is banned, then they will be suspected accordingly. That is how metagames develop and change."

:thinking:

 

[Pipotchi]

I just want to start with a preface that generally speaking, abusers of stats will be looked at before God Pokemon themselves. I can understand how daunting Deo-A HO was last meta, believe me, I loved abusing its insane power. However, Stall was actually the best archetype last meta until Mega Sableye was banned and then Balance became the best archetype before the release of Eviolite and following it, so this isn't exactly correct. The reason the council and the community decided to ban Mega Sableye, something that I heavily pushed for, was because it over-centralized the meta drastically with any decent HP increase. There weren't enough Pokemon that were well equipped with handling it and its team support made it almost unbreakable. We also realized that this might kill Stall so we decided to resuspect Eviolite to counteract that and honestly it worked out fine, and it allowed for some much needed team diversity in the metagame. The difference now is there are a plethora of very viable Pokemon that can beat it, i.e. why it was unbanned for the new meta. There is definitely room to beat all these Deo-A stat receivers you mentioned as well in any of the archetypes for this meta. Most Deo-A HO teams depend on Psychic Terrain since most of the Pokemon will be rather frail, so if you have Pokemon that can outspeed it them and have hazards out, you technically eliminate this power-heavy issue. Plus in Balance and Stall builds, you can effectively work around most the available threats that Deo-A HO will most likely be utilizing, so I don't think that the issue will be the God itself, rather, the receivers.

:thinking:

also i dont remember saying deoxys-a was broken anywhere in that post. i said deoxys-a is comparably strong to sableye, and then said the were both fine. is this a suspect test or do you just want to make it a non-vote

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

This isn't OU, first and foremost. Godly Gift is a completely different metegame. We're talking about an HP boosted Mega Sableye using a CM set which is completely resonable as a legitimate option. I never said Toxapex would rather have the HP slot, I said Mega Sableye doesn't care if it doens't have the HP slot because it has such insane team support that it can do its job in this generation without boosted HP. That would thus mean that Mega Sableye is inherently better in this generation than the previous one in which it was banned. You don't need both to wall a team, you can have one or the other and beat just about any team out there. SD Gliscor loses to Foul Play so that point on Metal Burst PP is meaningless. Plus stall runs unaware mons, i.e. Clefable, which walls SD Gliscor. I don't see the issue in running Night Shade? If Mega Sableye has boost HP and isn't facing a nomrla type, it breaks sub every single time. Seems like a pretty solid option for handling stallbreakers and setup sweepers that use sub.

You brought up how all these mons OHKO Mega Sableye so I refuted your statement by explaining how it's false. I frankly don't care if a Pokemon needs to OHKO it or not, but the fact that the Pokemon I mentioned can't OHKO means that they are losing to Metal Burst, guaranteed. Again with the stallbreakers bit, there are only a few stallbreakers that beat Mega Sableye 1v1, but thanks to Mega Sableye's teammates on stall, i.e. Toxapex, Skarmory, Clefable, Giratina/Arceus, etc., the team itself doesn't care and wins the matchup. How do you get up rocks against Mega Sableye with Groudon or Marowak? By predicting a switch or getting lucky? Mega Sableye doesn't care about either of these Pokemon, especially if it's physically defensive and stall can is more than likely going to force the opposing team into removing hazards with Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes being so common on Mega Sableye stall, if not doing that itself.

Again, this is not OU. There are stronger Pokemon, yes. In theory they should be able to be much better in handling Mega Sableye. However, Mega Sableye also gets boosted stats and teammates with boosted stats, so the playing field doesn't skew into the favor of Mega Sableye's checks. If you would like to know how many legitimate Pokemon can beat Mega Sableye and are also the least inhibited by its common stall teammates, there is Calm Mind Tapu Lele with boosted SpA, Nasty Plot Hoopa-U, SD Alolan Marowak with boosted Atk, Coil Resttalk Zygarde-C, and maybe Tail Glow Xurkitree. So there are 4, maybe 5 Pokemon that can have a legitimate chance of breaking Mega Sableye stall, if it isn't using Dugtrio as well. What Pokemon do Mega Sableye beat with boosted HP that it usually couldn't? Primal Groudon is a pretty good one. Sub or Rest Zygarde, Ho-oh, Choice Band Ttar, etc.

Stop changing the goalposts. You specifically said speed, don't come back and say now that HP is viable when that's not even close to the conversation.

I don't know about you, but to me

however it's almost always better to give Toxapex the HP stat

is pretty much the same thing as "Toxapex would rather have the HP slot."

Stallbreaker gliscor is one of gliscor's better sets, and foul play just means mega sableye doesn't lose as much while it still bypasses unaware pokes. Night shade is unviable on any pokemon other than as a niche OO option on Xatu because it just doesn't do enough damage, while knock off or foul play can at least cripple foes or beat setup; that kind of passive damage is only really usable on the (banned) blobs, and its certainly not anything near common on sableye, especially since it doesn't even break all subs.

Both Marowak and Pdon can 2hko mega sableye, to say nothing of other rockers - marowak can do so to even HP msable thanks to similar attack buffs, and that's not even what's being talked about here - so Mega sableye is forced into a 50-50 between recover and switching. That lets them have a shot at koing sableye or setting rocks.

As for teammates? Sure. But every mon you listed, for instance, is beaten by swellow, and giving stallbreakers free turns on stall is bad news. The simple fact is, speed doesn't help sableye much; only hp will set it above its merely decent ubers performance due to every mon haveing 1 uber level stat. As for what HP beats? Pdon. Hooh. Rayquaza. Dialga. Yveltal. Lunala. Clefable. Greninja. Mega Heracross. Smeargle. Kartana. Ashninja. Mega Pinsir. Scarf Tapu Bulu. Tyranitar. I could go on, but I think you get the point. More HP is what Mega Sableye needs most.

 

[Knuckstrike]

Yeah I think we're overestimating the capabilities of sab here. There's mons that beat it, and whether or not it's broken is something that can be mathmatically proven by definitions (and certainly not by nitpicking every pro-ban post and twisting arguments) but rather something that needs to be played out to get a feel for it. Between the large range of mons that still beat it or at least weaken it to where it's useless (I don't consider taking 90% and metal bursting a win for sab, moreso a trade), and its large opportunity cost I don't think it's banned.

 

[iLlama]

Due to the severe lack of votes, the suspect test will be extended by 12 hours until Sunday at 11:59 A.M. EDT. Get those reqs finished and submit your vote.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Hmm. I'm okay with Msab not getting banned but instead, something must be done for Toxapex + Msab core, ASAP. In my experience, they're pretty disgusting and literally impossible to break. Maybe Toxapex is the broken element. Either way, please do something for these two.

 

[Isaiah]

Hmm. I'm okay with Msab not getting banned but instead, something must be done for Toxapex + Msab core, ASAP. In my experience, they're pretty disgusting and literally impossible to break. Maybe Toxapex is the broken element. Either way, please do something for these two.

Honestly, it's difficult to say that one mon on its own is what's making stall such a threat. When you sit down and think about it, Msab gets destroyed by a lot of the powerhouse mons that people run; it's the core supporting it that lets you get away with keeping your magic bouncer alive. I've been playing on the suspect ladder with Mega Sableye gone and tried all sorts of teams, but one consistent thing I've noticed is that the stall cores with regenerator mons *cough* *hack* Toxapex, Alomomola *cough* *hack* are doing just fine. Now, obviously that doesn't mean any weird complex bans on that ability should be considered or anything, but I just thought it was important to note that in a lot of situations it's the whole core itself and not one specific mon that makes dealing with stall such a daunting task.

On a different note, I hope Deoxys-A gets addressed after this suspect test is over. That thing is a monster as a donator and is literally everywhere >.>