Gliscor (Analysis)

[Optimusje]

after thinking this trough alot (and a long time, i know, im slow), i think the best idea seems to be to split defensive gliscor into a roost and into a poison heal set, as they both achieve very different goals. Roostscor would be more suited for a stall based team, whilst poisonheal is more of a check against a lot of common threats.

Im a bit iffy about the claw sharpen/sd set posted above me. I suppose i'll test it, but i'll wait for what other people say about it.

 

[PK Gaming]

Poison Heal Gliscor is infinitely better than your standard Sand Veil + Roost Gliscor. It counters significantly more threats (Roopushin, Doryuuzu, Randurosu) and it doesn't have to have to waste a turn using Root. It should be the primary set imo.

 

[Chou Toshio]

^What he said. Basically, the turn taken to roost is very risky this meta, where flying's fighting resistances/immunity to ground have never been more valuable. The only pokemon who commonly throw stone edge/rock slide at gliscor in this meta are Dory and Terakkion, both who are faster than you anyway.

 

[Jaroda]

^Are you seriously seeing Gliscorb everywhere? I truthfully haven't seen very many.

OK I just checked PO statistics. Gliscor is currently #23 on the DW tier and Acrofling is the number one used set with Protect and EQ. The new standard it seems. Glad it caught on. 73% of Gliscor in DW are the Poison Heal variant. Most common EV spread is Impish all HP and Defense with the Acrofling set.

So currently it IS the standard set in this meta by a fair margin. And it's easy to see why. Let's look at the current top 10 in DW

1 - Shandera (can't switch into EQ and without SpD invested probably needs HP Ice or Overheat to OHKO. Check, but in Shandera's favor)

2 - Nattorei (Can't be poisoned with Fling and takes neutral damage from both STABs. Can't really hurt back without Gyro Ball and Leech Seed. Check that will most likely cause switches due to stall wars)

3 - Roopushin (Counters with Acrobat, takes practically no damage even from +2 attacks)

4 - Tyranitar (Counters physical versions and KO's with EQ. Only Scarf version with Ice Beam can OHKO Gliscor, and that's unlikely)

5 - Breloom (Best counter there is for it. Acrobat OHKO's even if you haven't flung your orb yet and you can't be Spored while you are poisoned.)

6 - Doryuzu (Counter. Can pop balloon with either Fling or Acrobat and KO with EQ. Even +2 Rock Slide is a 3HKO, assuming there was no poison heal recovery.)

7 - Ditto (Counter. Ditto will not have poison heal activated and only a 55 BP Acrobat from holding scarf. You can easily stall it out with Protect and full power Acrobat)

8 - Blaziken (Counter. Like Doryuzuu, even +2 attacks don't hurt Gliscorb too badly. You can Protect and make him crash when he uses HJK (which he shouldn't be) and Blaze Kick and Flare Blitz can't OHKO. You OHKO with either attack)

9 - Jaroda (Jaroda will win with +2 Leaf Storm or HP Ice. You can kill with Acrobat, but you'll never be faster.)

10 - Garchomp (Check. Scarfchomp does palsy damage with Outrage which is I believe a 4HKO factoring in PH. Fire Blast/Fang, Dragon Claw and EQ are all weaker or you are immune to. You can 2HKO with Acrobat or poison him. You'll be hurt taking it out, but you'll almost always win)

So of the top 10 used pokemon he counters more than half and checks everything but Jaroda. He is INSANELY anti-metagame right now and powerful in its own right.

 

[Banryu]

Doesn't Gliscor still make a good Baton Passer?

- Rock Polish
- Swords Dance
- Taunt / Earthquake / Aerial Ace
- Baton Pass

Works with either ability, really, although it probably helps to hold Passho / Yache.

 

[Jaroda]

I suppose he could but that seems like squandering his potential to me. Why not just use Mew if you want to Baton Pass, you know? Or Gorebyss with Shell Smash and White Herb.

Gliscor seems like a much better recipient of a Baton Pass. Imagine Gliscorb receiving said White Herb Shell Smash from Gorebyss? A pokemon with that kind of defenses with a +2 Attack and Speed and status immunity? Sign me up!

EDIT: Remembering that Poison Heal is available in WiFi as well I checked usage there and it's even higher than DW. It's #16 in usage with 52% using Poison Heal variants. #1 set is Acrofling with Protect, followed by Sword Dance.

 

[Chou Toshio]

^Are you seriously seeing Gliscorb everywhere? I truthfully haven't seen very many.

OK I just checked PO statistics. Gliscor is currently #23 on the DW tier

And why is this at all relevant to C&C?

 

[Jaroda]

C&C?Well, I added Wifi statistics.

 

[hamiltonion]

Yeah, I agree with all the guys. Poison Heal Gliscor is far better than the old standard one. They are a huge threat to your team and cannot be taken out easily unless you have prepared for it. However I would like to add a way to counter it. Other than it switching into a status move, it can be inflicted with some other status like paralyze before the turn ends and toxic orb activates. The best way to do this would be to use one of the mischievous heart users( Erufuun is the best choice). Once it has been paralyzed it is essentially a sitting duck as it has no recovery , is slow as hell and be taken out by any ice type move.

 

[Jaroda]

That strategy is shakey at best. For one, Protect is a highly common move on Gliscorb, if not requisite. Priority status is still slower than Protect. Also, the orb activates simply by switching into attacks and with two immunities to common moves and a fighting resist he has plenty of opportunities to do so. Finally, pretty much the only moves that paralyze or sleep him come from grass pokemon, and Gliscor won't switch into them unless his orb has already activated. Gliscor's biggest problem always has been and still is bulky or fast water pokemon with special attacks. Slowbro, Vaporeon, Suicune, Starmie can either outrun or survive and OHKO back and pokemon like Latios levitate over EQ, outspeed and hit with specs Surf. Not to mention Zapdos with HP Ice. Immune to EQ (outside of Roost) and resists Acrobat.

 

[xscythe]

The question for me is Toxic or Fling on the Toxic Orb. He walls so much it isn't funny. Easily one of the best doryzuu counters. Fling is 100 accurate and does some damage, but can only be sued once to poison. Toxic can be used all the time but less accurate. If you use fling, acrobat becomes an amazing stab and with earthquake, it can only be walled by Levitate or flying steel and rock. On the Toxic side, go with Aereal Ace which has uses since there is no evasion clause. (Why? Smeagle hits it everytime against me) I guess it comes down to choice or other pokes. On the fling set, Tentacruel, which has been retardedly good this format, may make a great team together. Tentacruel throws down T spikes so fling's being only one time is not that big of a deal. Gliscor covers Tentacruel's ground weakness and thanks to stab earthquake should be able to ko every poison type that trys to suck up the spikes. Tentacruel then covers Gliscors one issue of ice.

 

[Banryu]

I believe Fling is generally regarded as the superior option, due to it powering up STAB Acrobat. Personally, I'd care more about Flinging away my Orb than actually inToxicating something with it, just so I get that boost on Acrobat. :o Aerial Ace, while helpful against Smeargle, is pretty useless against other Inconsistent users, since Octillery, Glalie, and Bibarel all have Supereffective STAB moves to throw at Gliscor. I think Fling is better.

 

[Jaroda]

Agreed. If you want pure toxic stall and you're running a sandstorm team then go Sand Veil with Roost and Toxic. If you don't use sand you can use Poison Heal instead with Protect, Toxic, Taunt and EQ if you really want. Fling just happens to be great for pure offense or bulky offense Gliscor. I like bulky offense.

 

[Atticus]

I believe Fling is generally regarded as the superior option, due to it powering up STAB Acrobat. Personally, I'd care more about Flinging away my Orb than actually inToxicating something with it, just so I get that boost on Acrobat. :o Aerial Ace, while helpful against Smeargle, is pretty useless against other Inconsistent users, since Octillery, Glalie, and Bibarel all have Supereffective STAB moves to throw at Gliscor. I think Fling is better.

I disagree. I've tested both and tbh I've found the toxic set to be better. With fling you get a one time toxic on what will most likely just end up being a steel that your opponent will switch in. As much as I like the 110 Acrobat it's not that necessary as most of the time you can just toxic fliers/levitators and just protect/switch out. Once you lose that Torb he loses a lot of utility in stall wars where he would have rather had toxic. Also the move doesn't have to be aerial ace; facade, ice fang, etc are all very good and give it some cool tools to play with (such as beating other glis with ice fang).

 

[Banryu]

All right, I'll give you that they both have their uses, fair enough.
I'll revise my previous statement: Fling is better on offensive Gliscorb, due to it raising Acrobat's BP, but Toxic is better on more defensive variants.

...it really kind of seems like stating the obvious, now that I say it out loud, LOL. Guess I shouldn't have ruled out Toxic when/like I did.

 

[TAY]

Seriously? No mention of u-turn at all? It is still an incredibly good move, especially on something that draws in a lot of psychic and grass types, and forces a lot of switches with Taunt.

Earthquake/Protect/Taunt/U-turn @toxic orb has been a very successful defensive set for me. Even if you don't make it the primary option, it definitely deserves a slash!

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

First of all, the defensive set needs some Speed in my opinion, because it's currently outsped by Tyranitar. You only need 72 Speed EVs to amend this, so unless the Attack EVs are for anything (are they, atticus?), I think it would be a good idea to shift them + 16 Def EVs to Speed.

Also, I'm going to reiterate that Roost is far outclassed by Poison Heal (unless you want to use Stealth Rock I guess) to the point where it should just be mentioned in Optional Changes only.

 

[Jaroda]

Tyranitar might be able to use Ice Beam but I haven't seen a single Ttar with that yet this Gen. Many are physical since they have to worry about trapping Shandera in DW and if they are mixed then they use a Fire move for Steels like Nattorei. The vast majority of Ttar can't do anything really to Gliscor who has Earthquake. And not sure if Ttar has that threatening Ice Beam like was mentioned? Well that's what Protect is for. Gliscor either benefits from full speed or no speed.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

More and more Tyranitar are running Ice Beam for Gliscor. Shandeera is irrelevant since analyses cater to the Standard tier, not Dream World. And again, there's no reason to leave the EVs in Attack if they're not for anything specific.

 

[Optimusje]

So far the problem has been finding the right sets, as a lot of this is just fine tweaking. The possibilities are so big (i have scribbled up dozens of sets on a piece of paper a few days back) that I have trouble finding the right stuff for it. It seems best to narrow it down to an offensive and defensive poison heal set and a roost set and either slash several options in, or mention them in optional changes (things as u-turn would go there imo).

I would appreciate if someone could help me sort all this out and find the correct spreads/sets, as simply having too many sets onsite would seem useless if they end up doing the same thing with a few different tweaks in ev's/moves.

 

[Mew]

It can work as on of the best stallers. With Toxic Orb+Poison Heal, max speed and HP, Rock Polish/Protect/Substitute/Toxic or whatever it can stall out your opponents when they're poisoned, burned and works especially well with sandstorm. You should really make a set for it.

 

[Jaroda]

What exactly does Rock Polish accomplish when you have no attacking moves? Speed isn't exactly the most helpful stat on a stalling wall. At least use Knock Off or Taunt to prevent set up or Leftovers recovery.

I used to use SpD EVs but I'm finding them not very useful. Kind of like Skarmory in a sense Gliscor is kind of better off going pure physical and letting team mates with better SpD handle the moves he can't, like a specially defensive Nattorei I've begun using, or something like a Vaporeon.

I'm now using a spread of Impish 180 HP / 196 At / 132 Df. He now has 336 HP (a poison heal number), 275 At and 350 Df. This makes him a much better switch in to physical moves and he can poison the mon that come in on him or simply EQ. Then you can Protect scout and switch or attack accordingly. With that attack stat and those strong STAB moves he can 2HKO most pokemon that are neutral. Going half assed with some SpD doesn't save him from water or ice moves at all, you're better off with more HP. And while there is possibly a safe speed benchmark somewhere in there I think with Protect scouting Gliscor's longevity is much better with defensive investment so you can simply keep him away from his biggest threats.

So to reiterate either go Jolly with max speed or don't bother I say. On Jolly sets SD is even more viable if you intend to sweep. On slow and bulky sets defense and HP along with Protect will help you outstall almost anything.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Okay, so in response to Opt, I think the sets should go along the lines of something like this:

[SET]
name: Fling
move 1: Fling
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Acrobat
move 4: Protect / Taunt / Swords Dance
item: Toxic Orb
ability: Poison Heal
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 Spe

set comments:
-mention alternate spread of Jolly, 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spe. This beats Jolly Lucario and several other slower things, including Heatran, Smeargle, and the occasional fast Skarmory. This spread is probably ideal for Swords Dance and maybe Taunt variants.
-mention Jolly, 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe spread for Swords Dancer

[SET]
name: Non-Fling (or some better name)
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Toxic
move 3: Protect / Taunt
move 4: Ice Fang / Facade
item: Toxic Orb
ability: Poison Heal
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 Spe

set comments:
-mention alternate spread again
-mention Aerial Ace as an option in the fourth slot

Optional Changes:
-mention U-turn
-mention Roost/Stealth Rock, which are only legal with Sand Veil
-mention Fire Fang for Nattorei

Reasoning:

From my experience, most people have opted to run defensive spreads to more comfortably check threats like Terakion and Doryuuzu; however, I think the Speed investment is to outrun +Speed Tyranitar is worthwhile. Yes, you can scout its Ice Beam with Protect (or just assume it has Ice Beam), but there are situations where you will want to outrun it, such as if it's ever in Earthquake KO range. Furthermore, the Speed investment isn't large, so why not? I think, however, that an alternate, faster EV spread should still be mentioned.

I only see the need for two sets, maybe three (split the Swords Dance set from the first set and make it separate). There isn't a static lead position anymore, so there's not much need for a lead set, especially when you can probably just use one of the aforementioned sets as a lead. Baton Pass's main use last gen was on DS Azelf/Metagross teams, a strategy that also loses of its effectiveness from Team Preview. Finally, there's the issue of Roost, which I don't think deserves a mention outside of Optional Changes. For one thing, practically nobody uses on the ladder uses it because Poison Heal is decidedly superior in practice. I can go further into detail as to why it doesn't deserve a mention, but at the risk of repeating myself too much, I won't unless asked to.

So, that's just my 2 cents, would appreciate any input; otherwise, I'll stamp this after the skeleton has been changed to reflect this.

 

[Stellar]

I think Protect should be one of the "locked" slots on the non-Fling set. Earthquake / Protect / Toxic / [Taunt / Ice Fang / Facade] is what I have seen the most and have used the most.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

I was considering that, but you're then walled by (Balloon) Doryuuzu. I guess it probably depends on one's team, considering that Gliscor is not uncommonly used as a team's main answer to Doryuuzu. I would be okay with a Taunt slash in the fourth slot and perhaps a mention in set comments that it can be slashed in the third slot, or vice-versa, so long as this is mentioned.