Other Freed Ubers

[Gary]

I just came here to say that Manaphy is fucking amazing. Screw not being able to abuse Hydration like it used to, screw even using it on a rain team. I've been using it on a weatherless team paired with Mega Kanga to break through special walls like Chansey and Florges, and I am just so shocked with how successful this thing is at just mowing through teams. I've been using this set:

Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Tail Glow
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Energy Ball

Basically the only Tail Glow set Manaphy can run due to its somewhat barren offensive movepool. However, even with a completely barren movepool, Manaphy has everything it could ever ask for with just three moves + Tail Glow. This thing just absolutely wrecks. Once you get rid of Ferrothorn and the pink blobs, there isn't much stopping Manaphy from pile driving the opponent into the ground. It's somewhat average 299 Special Attack is sky rocketed to an outrageous 747 in just one turn of setup, turning Manaphy from a harmless Water pixie into a bloodthirsty sea creature. Surf OHKOes basically anything that doesn't resist it, and anything that is weak to it is completely over killed. Ice Beam gives this set much needed coverage against Grass-type Pokemon such as Breloom, Trevanent, Gourgeist, and Celebi, while nailing Dragonite and Salamence. Energy Ball is specifically bulky Water-types; Rotom-W, Starmie, Gastrodon, and Jellicent being the most common. Leftovers is preferred over anything else because Manaphy appreciates the extra bit of health it takes each turn, which could potentially keep it from being revenged killed by priority from the likes of Talonflame, Aegislash, and Breloom. Manaphy is also relatively bulky, meaning that it is able to set up on weaker attacks with ease, and Brave Bird from CB Talonflame always fails to OHKO it at full health. Thundurus-I or Thundurus-T are probably the best checks out there, but other than that, most revenge killers fail to OHKO Manaphy at full health. Although its plain Water-typing is a slight letdown offensively, defensively it gives Manaphy a mere 2 weaknesses, with only Electric being the more common type. Besides, the most common Electric-type, Rotom-W, is easily beaten with Energy Ball. Honestly, there isn't much else to say about this set. If you haven't tried it out yet, I highly advise you to do so. All you need to do is pair it with a powerful physical attacker like Mega Kanga or Lucario to bust through special walls, and you're pretty much golden. Have fun winning!

 

[jvlien]

i tried using genesect and hes pretty good, this is my first time using him but i dont really see a problem with him as to why he had to be bumped to ubers then again i never played competitively in b/w2 but i think jirachi does a way better job then genesect, it also outspeeds and ohkos him with fire punch

 

[Super Mario Bro]

I'm glad that someone finally pointed out the potential of Manaphy's Tail Glow set, as it's truly an enormous threat in the current metagame, mainly due to the lack of preparation for it. I expect threats like Mega Venusaur, Unaware Clefable, and Ferrothorn to emerge as counters once its usage rightfully rises. But really, the best way to deal with TG Manaphy at this point is through revenge-killing it with Pokemon like Scarf Rotom-W, Thundurus(-T), Specs Lati@s, Mega Luke, any of the Musketeers, etc.

On a different note, another under-appreciated set that needs to be mentioned is:

Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 HP / 248 Def / 8 SDef
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Rain Dance
- Scald
- Rest

CroPhy is essentially just a better CroCune in several ways. The premise of the set is to use Calm Mind in conjunction with Rain Dance to boost Manaphy's Special stats and simultaneously give it a reliable method of recovery through Hydration Rest; after a while, it becomes insanely difficult to kill. It was definitely on par with Tail Glow as its most threatening set in Gen IV, but I'm not sure if that's still the case, due to the increased number of Water Absorbers and a faster-paced metagame.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

Klefki can actually threaten common threats like Aegislash with its Foul Play, so it doesn't matter about Klefki's own offenses.

Wow, that actually works against a max atk ev (neutral nature) and HP Aegislash, even its Shield Form, as it does 50-59% when Aegislash is at +2. T-wave will give you an edge in a protracted struggle of prediction mind games, since it goes through King Shield and encourages conservative play by allowing one to spam Substitute while waiting for a misprediction or a free turn.

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Basically the only Tail Glow set Manaphy can run due to its absolutely atrocious offensive movepool.

I really do not consider moves such as Surf, Scald, Energy Ball, Ice Beam, Shadow Ball, and Psychic (a significant number of Greninja uses this, but it does get STAB on it and can turn it into Fighting resist) to be "atrocious": Giga Drain would most likely make it an Uber since it can use Pokemon that are already weakened or cannot OHKO with its others moves as a healing opportunity. Asides from Aura Sphere which gives it a valuable accurate fighting move, what other moves one can want? Focus Blast, but I say sour grapes to it since I do not like relying on a 70% accuracy move to finish a Sweep. Air Slash? Dark Pulse? Thunderbolt? Earth Power? Flamethrower? Sludge Bomb? Thunderbolt? Bug Buzz? Dazzling Gleam? Selecting one of those moves in place of Energy Ball would still leave it walled by some other Pokemon. Admittedly, Air Slash and Dark Pulse are useful for the flinching chance and Bug Buzz for the Substitute bypassing. Many Pokemon would kill to have access to Ice Beam, not because it is useful in a sweep but because it has high base power and can KO many Pokemon weak to its without any boosting moves and items. Perhaps your point was that the lack of moves make it too predictable as most would either expect Energy Ball to deal with Quagsire, Rotom-W, and Gastrodon (and also other water types) or Shadow Ball for Aegislash and Gengar. Moreover, you may be a more risky player than I am, so I really do not lament the lack of Hydro Pump, Focus Blast, Fire Blast or weather dependent moves that much. It would seem that its monotyping is holding it back from being a more effective sweeper and the fact that Tail Glow consumes a move slot that can be used for another move.

[Edit: *Extrasensory not Psychic for Greninja, and the post was edited]

Still, its raw power at neutral natured +3 seems to make it OU and also its high natural bulk and lack of exploitable weaknesses. However, it is a "slow" Pokemon, in the sense that it does not have top-tier speed, lacks priority, and requires a turn of set-up. These factors are one deterrent against the use of Choice Scarf Salamence in Gen 5 OU, since it is outspeeded by other Choice Scarf Dragons with higher speed and Mamoswine. But Manaphy lack of speed is mitigated by its somewhat high defensive stats and typing: Salamence is quite frail without defensive investment and the Dragon moves targeted against it have high base power with STAB so no boosting items are necessary or are 4x effective backed by high base power and a Life Orb. At high health, it certainly isn't going to be KOed by priority or a coverage move.

In short, consider Tail Glow to be a free Nasty Plot with a Life Orb boost (2.5 = 2 x 1.25). More precisely to use a Gen 5 Timid Keldeo in comparison with Manaphy's Surf as an example, Timid Keldeo and Manaphy haves a Special Attack stats of 357 and 299. A 3+ Manaphy has stat of 747 and a Life Orb, Calm Mind or Rain-boosted Keldeo has an effective stat of 696 and correcting for the nerf to Surf (by multiplying by 19/18) yields 734. (A Hydro Pump has a corrected value of 926 by multiplying by 4/3) And let us not forget that it does not have to rely on the weak Icy Wind or base 70 Hidden Powers for additional coverage, and the Tail Glow boosted power applies to all its moves, not on just its water moves. And also consider that it has Leftovers which increases its survivability immensely.

----

 

[RufflesPro]

Not really I threatened millions of Aegislashes with HP Fire on Deoxys-S, were they Shadow Sneak, Sash activates a HP Fire does about 70%, Predicting King's Shield I just switch, Deoxys-S is really a powerhouse, I'm not using him as taunt/SR/Spikes/Screens/anything not hitting, I'm using Psycho Boost / Superpower / HP Fire / Ice Beam, the amount of Gliscors, Both forms of Landoruses, Garchomps, Flygons, Salamnces, Noiverns etc. that I surprised with Ice Beam is too damn high, and Psycho Boost does a considerable amount of damage to anything resistant.

Also using Sand Rush LO Excadrill w/ T-T and the results, even with only 8 turns (smooth rock), are amazing.
Since I have more than one team, I have both Sheer Power Special Landorus and Sand Force Physical Landorus, both are amazing but the sand force physical is bit better (due to sand force boosting 30% while sheer power 20%) and more surprising. Thundorus isn't as good as I though TBH. While Scarf Genesect is just amazing. Tornadus-Therian is also absolutely amazing, losing 10% to LO and then U-Turning + Reginerator.

 

[Dinosaurman]

LO sheer force is way better than regular Sand force lando..

 

[CyclicCompound]

Honestly, Sheer Force Lando vs. Sand Force Lando is a fairly even trade-off. While Sheer Force Lando gets you a really nice 216BP (factoring in STAB) Earth Power and lets you use Rock Slide over Stone Edge, you're pretty much forced to run LO to get the full benefits, while Sand Force Landorus lets you run a boosting set. So it really depends on your playstyle and Lando's role in your team more than which one is better by the numbers.

 

[Magnemite]

Honestly, Sheer Force Lando vs. Sand Force Lando is a fairly even trade-off. While Sheer Force Lando gets you a really nice 216BP (factoring in STAB) Earth Power and lets you use Rock Slide over Stone Edge, you're pretty much forced to run LO to get the full benefits, while Sand Force Landorus lets you run a boosting set. So it really depends on your playstyle and Lando's role in your team more than which one is better by the numbers.

How is running LO a bad thing at all? It's a 30% boost with no recoil that stacks with Sheer Force. Also, it certainly can run a boosting set with Rock Polish. Sand was nerfed majorly this generation, so if you want physical Lando to sweep you'll have to do it in a limited amount of turns while also trying to find a way to not be outclassed as a sand sweeper by Excadrill. Sheer Force hits much harder than Sand Force and was the reason Landorus-I was even banned at all last gen.

 

[CyclicCompound]

How is running LO a bad thing at all? It's a 30% boost with no recoil that stacks with Sheer Force. Also, it certainly can run a boosting set with Rock Polish. Sand was nerfed majorly this generation, so if you want physical Lando to sweep you'll have to do it in a limited amount of turns while also trying to find a way to not be outclassed as a sand sweeper by Excadrill. Sheer Force hits much harder than Sand Force and was the reason Landorus-I was even banned at all last gen.

Well, if you want to run Sheer Force Landorus, you'll need to split EVs to make the most of its coverage options. I think that alone merits the use of Sand Force, especially if you want to scarf/band it, not to mention that sand isn't particularly difficult to come across or even utilize this generation.

 

[Magnemite]

Well, if you want to run Sheer Force Landorus, you'll need to split EVs to make the most of its coverage options. I think that alone merits the use of Sand Force, especially if you want to scarf/band it, not to mention that sand isn't particularly difficult to come across or even utilize this generation.

No, Sheer Force Landorus never runs any physical moves at all except for the somewhat rare U-Turn. The standard in Gen V OU was Earth Power/Focus Blast/HP Ice/Rock Polish. It can also run Psychic, Sludge Wave, or another HP type, so there's no reason it would ever run physical moves other than U-Turn or less than 252 Special Attack EVs. Rock Slide doesn't gain any noteworthy coverage. It doesn't have the ridiculous coverage other Sheer Force users have (Seriously, I never got why the Nidos have Boltbeam), but it works well enough.

 

[RufflesPro]

Rock Slide doesn't give you noteworthy coverage? Bro what about Talonflame, who is now on almost 60% of the teams, your STAB does 0%, Focus Bast is NVE and HP Ice does pathetic damage, Psychic 2-3HKO-es, while Talonflame Brave Bird + Roost can wreck you, and can also take it's time setting up Bulk Up/SD + Roost, not to mention Gengar, which easily take 3-4 HP ice and can either 2HKO w/ Shadow Ball or just HP Ice.

I ran 2 Landorus to see what is viable and what is not.

Sand Force Life Orb Landorus: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 SpA
Earthquake / Iron Tail / Rock Slide / HP Ice

Sheer Power Life Orb Landorus: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 Atk
Earth power / HP Ice / Focus Blast / Rock Slide

In Sand, Earthquake does more, due to Sand Force giving 30%, Life Orb boost, Landorus having more Atk than SpA.
In Sand, Iron Tail does does a little bit less than Focus Blast.
HP Ice does less damage than Sheer Power (252 SpA Vs. 4 SpA)
In Sand, Rock Slide does loads more though, the fact that 252 Atk Vs. 4 Atk and 30% boost Vs. 20% boost

Rock Slide also does more damage in sand than Psychic and Sludge Wave, also I want to mention that Landorus doesn't survive much to have a free turn for Rock Polish, the super popular HP ice, Hydro Pump and Scald, Ice beam in OU just get it, so I don't think it's Viable on either set.

Sand Force is clearly better than Sheer Power, but that is only if Sand is there, which demands a pokemon with sandstream/sandstorm, preferably w/ Smooth Rock, and at least 3-4 turns left of sand.

 

[AOPSUser]

Rock Slide doesn't give you noteworthy coverage? Bro what about Talonflame, who is now on almost 60% of the teams, your STAB does 0%, Focus Bast is NVE and HP Ice does pathetic damage, Psychic 2-3HKO-es, while Talonflame Brave Bird + Roost can wreck you, and can also take it's time setting up Bulk Up/SD + Roost, not to mention Gengar, which easily take 3-4 HP ice and can either 2HKO w/ Shadow Ball or just HP Ice.

I ran 2 Landorus to see what is viable and what is not.

Sand Force Life Orb Landorus: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 SpA
Earthquake / Iron Tail / Rock Slide / HP Ice

Sheer Power Life Orb Landorus: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 Atk
Earth power / HP Ice / Focus Blast / Rock Slide

In Sand, Earthquake does more, due to Sand Force giving 30%, Life Orb boost, Landorus having more Atk than SpA.
In Sand, Iron Tail does does a little bit less than Focus Blast.
HP Ice does less damage than Sheer Power (252 SpA Vs. 4 SpA)
In Sand, Rock Slide does loads more though, the fact that 252 Atk Vs. 4 Atk and 30% boost Vs. 20% boost

Rock Slide also does more damage in sand than Psychic and Sludge Wave, also I want to mention that Landorus doesn't survive much to have a free turn for Rock Polish, the super popular HP ice, Hydro Pump and Scald, Ice beam in OU just get it, so I don't think it's Viable on either set.

Sand Force is clearly better than Sheer Power, but that is only if Sand is there, which demands a pokemon with sandstream/sandstorm, preferably w/ Smooth Rock, and at least 3-4 turns left of sand.

In BW2, which was the time of permanent sand, people ran special Landorus-I, simply because Landorus-T was more powerful physically. Yes Lando-I has Sand Force but that needed a Sand team and had LO recoil, while Lando-T could exist on pretty much any team you wanted.

With no more permanent sand I don't really see how physical Landorus-I is suddenly going to rise in popularity.

Also I think that Sand Force set is the only set that ever runs Iron Tail seriously. Landorus-I should have gotten Iron Head.

 

[RufflesPro]

True that, and Sheer Power is more Viable, I'm just pointing out that it's not that much more viable, and one of the reasons for that is surprise.

 

[xSilentDeviL]

To me, Genesect is just broken. Stab U-turn forces the opponent to switch in a bug resist just to take the hit, and then allows the opponent to switch in an appropriate counter. Unlike scizor, nothing (for the most part) is able to outspeed a scarfed poke with 99 speed. The old way to deal with this (at least for me) was stealth rocks and spikes to slow our hit-and-retreat bug down, but even that has become more difficult with defog. idk man, this thing just ruins competitive pokemon for me. Sure it has a few counters in very bulky waters, heatran etc. but i just thinks its too powerful. I should mention Download isn't helping the cause of him staying in OU. Excadrill on the other hand seems to be an awesome fit in the metagame without permanent sand. I look forward to seeing him on teams including my own. The other pokes i just haven't played enough against to speak on them.

 

[CyclicCompound]

From what I've read thus far, and from my own battling experience, I think Landorus is as good as the support you're willing to give it. If you're willing to run a sand inducer (which isn't particularly hard, considering both of them are incredibly decent pokes), Sand Force will definitely pay off. That's not to say that Sheer Force is bad, but I'd be willing to give Lando sand support to get the most out of it.

 

[SJCrew]

Yeah. I'm using Genesect like mad now; COMPLETELY outclasses Scizor with his higher speed, Download, and Extremespeed added to his arsenal. As always, his only reliable counter is Heatran. I've even spent entire matches U-turning off of Heatran, allowing the rest of my team to apply some crazy offensive pressure. Genesect forces out just about everything into Heatran. He's looking at another ban sometime in the future, IMO.

 

[GoliathGarchomp]

Genesect is looking good again this gen, maybe too good. He did get nerfed this gen with all his Special Attacks getting lowered in BP and losing a Ghost and Dark resistance but this doesn't seem like its going to affect him to much to be honest. He has access to ESpeed now which is great for a banded set. Honestly he makes great use if a Choice Band now, throws around really powerful U-Turns, you can bluff that he's scarfed, his Iron Head has more use now and he gets Blaze Kick or you can use another one of his coverage moves (Tbult, IBeam, FThrower for example) to cover one of his weaknesses. He still makes great use of Choice Scarf and is probably the best in the game, makes great use of Ebelt which his great movepool. He can also pull off sweeps with Rock Polish or Shift Gear, Rock Polish is still so dangerous once priority users like Talonflame are gone and Shift Gear while lacks the coverage of RP is great because you get ESpeed to beat other priority users.
He's not the most broken thing in OU right now, but once some other things are banned and suspected tested I defiantly feel this guy is worthy of a suspect test and could see him being banned again for the same reason as last gen, overcentralising the metagame.

 

[MagicMissingno]

I haven't had much trouble with Genescect, then again people might not hae been using him the right way and thought he was an instant win button like rain nearly was in gen 5.

 

[RufflesPro]

I'm using Physical Genesect b/c everybody expects Special one.
U-Turn / Iron Head / Extreme Speed / Shift Gear. The only problem is bulky ground types like Landorus and Gliscor, but it's nice and all.

 

[haunter]

The old way to deal with this (at least for me) was stealth rocks and spikes to slow our hit-and-retreat bug down, but even that has become more difficult with defog. idk man, this thing just ruins competitive pokemon for me.

Note that the nerf to the efficacy oh hazard based strategies worked both ways. While you can no longer force Genesect to take SR damage every time it comes in, so the Genesect user can't rely on hazards to slowly wear down your switch ins and continue to spam volt/turn forever. All the more so if you use defog.

Also, please no discussion on the tiering of Genesect and other formerly Ubers Pokemon. We'll discuss them at the right time.

 

[yoh102]

In Sand, Earthquake does more, due to Sand Force giving 30%, Life Orb boost, Landorus having more Atk than SpA.
In Sand, Iron Tail does does a little bit less than Focus Blast.
HP Ice does less damage than Sheer Power (252 SpA Vs. 4 SpA)
In Sand, Rock Slide does loads more though, the fact that 252 Atk Vs. 4 Atk and 30% boost Vs. 20% boost

Rock Slide also does more damage in sand than Psychic and Sludge Wave, also I want to mention that Landorus doesn't survive much to have a free turn for Rock Polish, the super popular HP ice, Hydro Pump and Scald, Ice beam in OU just get it, so I don't think it's Viable on either set.

Sand Force is clearly better than Sheer Power, but that is only if Sand is there, which demands a pokemon with sandstream/sandstorm, preferably w/ Smooth Rock, and at least 3-4 turns left of sand.

Unless there is a mechanic change with sheer force, that ability's boost is (I'm citing the on-site description) 5325/4096 (about 130%), so no, Sand Force isn't clearly better, even with sand, because it doesn't negate LO recoil (and lando isn't frail so it minds), and Steel is not a good offensive type (Poison and Psychic also aren't so it's kinda moot).

 

[CyclicCompound]

Unless there is a mechanic change with sheer force, that ability's boost is (I'm citing the on-site description) 5325/4096 (about 130%), so no, Sand Force isn't clearly better, even with sand, because it doesn't negate LO recoil (and lando isn't frail so it minds), and Steel is not a good offensive type (Poison and Psychic also aren't so it's kinda moot).

Well, that's assuming you're set on using LO. Again, a Sheer Force LO Earth Power WILL do more damage than a Sand Force EQ. But I think the flexibility of using an item other than LO and being able to take advantage of Rock-type attacks and a stronger U-Turn without having to split EVs has its own merit too. I'm not saying that a LO set is bad, but I do think there are valid reasons for using a physical Sand Force Landorus.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

I haven't had much trouble with Genescect, then again people might not hae been using him the right way and thought he was an instant win button like rain nearly was in gen 5.

Glad you are not suffering a problem against it as I am not too, perhaps because you considered it in your team building decisions and covered for it. But it is a powerful Pokemon, and many players will therefore use it if they believe that can exploit its Download boosted power and momentum it generates. It mere presence is a strong deterrent for me from considering Contrary Serperior, Celebi, and Jirachi (although the latter does take U-turn neutrally but it is still outsped and can be hit by a flamethrower or used as a U-turn momentum target), even though Genesect doesn't really "counter" those Pokemon in the sense that people choose to use Genesect to counter those Pokemon; Genesect's prevalence affects team building decisions.


---

As for myself, I could personally say that I was disappointed by Thundurus, even though I initially found it attractive due to its Prankster Thunder Wave and its flying type so it could still function as a pseudo revenge killer with its high base 111 speed and 125 special attack without being affected by Sticky Web; the immunity to Sticky Web was a factor why I chose it over Greninja. I used max special attack evs and a Timid nature with Leftovers, so it can paralyze another Pokemon by not draining itself with Life Orb and Stealth Rock damage. I was disappointed by it when its Hidden Power Ice did only 29% to a mixed Hippowdon (analyzing the battle, I really felt I lost the battle on the first turn, since I only had a Rotom-W to damage it and that can be easily played around by my opponent, but I continued anyway without forfeiting since I felt that I needed to learn how to handle the psychological pressure from protracted battles against stall teams, even though I felt that it would be ultimately a futile struggle.) I was willing to tolerate Thunderus frailty and Stealth Rock weakness for what I perceived to be a respectable offensive presence, at least for its super-effective hits, and its ability to cripple stuff with T-wave and Taunt.

A similar argument can be made against Tornadus-T though, who has similar speed being outspeed by Greninja and Noivern, poor bulk, a Stealth Rock weakness, a bad move pool for gen 6 (Hurricane or Air Slash for its STABs and its only other respectable coverage moves are Focus Blast and Heat Wave). Regenerator mitigates the Stealth Rock weakness and it can be very effective pivot when the Rocks are down as it can freely U-turn out (I never use it though), but Greninja has a power ability and a move pool to exploit it.

 

[PK Gaming]

Genesect is still stupidly good. I've been running the sash lead set from Gen V, and it's been doing wonders (All of its sets are really good, I got faced someone who used a monster CB set). This shouldn't even be a surprise, it literally only got better from the transition from gen BW ---> XY.

Unquestionably in the top 3 best Pokemon in the game, period.

 

[56k]

I like Deoxys-S a lot, with 252 HP it can stick around and if it's Timid it can outrun scarf garchomp and ice beam it. I've been using psychoboost/icebeam/taunt/recover as some kind of pivot/annoyer on a stall team and it works well. The straight up hazards/taunt sets are also amazing, but also not uber at all. I think the added priority and prankster users makes deo-s quite balanced in OU.

Genesect is questionable. As noted, the only good counter is heatran, who takes the u-turn but ends up facing something that can ohko heatran. Eventually he gets worn down and now you have no one to wall genesect. ARE there any other good counters? I've tried out intimidate arcanine, it's lackluster. Nevertheless I'm not sure if it's exactly uber or not. It has plenty of counters, it just gets to u-turn away from those counters usually.