Flavor of the Month

[DTC]

BW NU has been around for quite a while, and while there has not been many big tier shifts besides the first one, the NU metagame sure has changed a lot. Many Pokemon -- some even considered the top threats -- have dropped down massively in usage for one reason or another. In this thread, we talk about the Pokemon that used to be considered the best of the best at the time, but then dropped of in usage ("flavors of the month"). There can be many reasons why these Pokemon fell down in usage: new Pokemon dropped down, people started preparing for that particular Pokemon, or it may have just been plain overhyped. In addition to that, you should also talk about how viable they are in the current metagame as well as what set you would run on them now.

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To start off this discussion, I'd like to bring up Gorebyss. Gorebyss was the first suspect in NU and was very scary in the metagame. People started using Electric-type revenge killers such as Choice Scarf Rotom-Fan because they could outspeed Gorebyss even after a Shell Smash and OHKO it.

In the current metagame, Gorebyss is pretty rare, although it still makes me a bit afraid when I see it in the team preview. While Ludicolo dropped down soon after Gorebyss was suspected, and Gorebyss' usage went down because of that, it is likely that Ludicolo isn't the only reason Gorebyss stopped being a top threat.

 

[Annoyer]

smh at all these shitty titles you give these threads

The main reason Gorebyss dropped down in usage was that people actually started preparing for it. Scarf Rotom-S became insanely common on many top teams just for its ability to outspeed Gorebyss after a smash. Ludicolo also hampered Gorebyss' viability a bit as well as somewhat outclassing it as a water-type special attacker. People also started using more specially oriented walls to deal with Gorebyss. I guess Gorebyss was a bit overhyped but it mainly just that people realized how to deal with and that Gorebyss was able to take advantage of unprepared teams quite easily.

In the current meta, SubSmash Gorebyss is easily its best set. Its able to set up on a bunch of srers in the tier such as Metang or Regirock (mindgames doe!) as well as having Signal Beam to pop unsuspecting Jynx, Eggy, and Ludicolo which makes it a pretty viable threat although it is underused atm. Rotom-S became less common with the introduction of Jynx as a "better" scarfer too which helps Gorebyss. I like to use Lum Berry on SubSmash Gorebyss so I wont get hindered by Tspikes and lets me switch in freely on Alomomola so I can sub next turn without getting hit by Toxic as well as avoiding random twaves from Regirock or priority twaves from Liepard trying to cripple my sweep. Gorebyss is still a threat in today's metagame but it will never be as a big of a threat as it was during the "primal" days of NU.

 

[tennisace]

One thing I kind of wondered aloud in #nu earlier was why Ice Beam is the most used move on Gorebyss. Sure, it's a good coverage move that hits Grass-types and Flying-types. However, a simple set of Smash / Water move / Ice Beam / HP Grass gets beaten by Jynx, since Jynx won't get OHKO'd by any move at +2. If you run Signal Beam over HP Grass, you lose to SpDef Seismitoad. So why don't people run Smash / Water move / Signal Beam / HP Grass? You lose out on Altaria, Fraxure, Dragonair, and Shelgon, but none of those are particularly huge threats to begin with. Mantine also walls you, but Mantine already walled you if you didn't use HP Electric (and HP Grass is still a 2hko at +2 with SR). The biggest advantage is that you beat non-scarf Jynx (Scarf outspeeds), while still wrecking every Grass-type you did previously.

 

[watashi]

i used surf/signal beam/smash/sub in this meta and it was great because it could easily set up on all the alomomola and metang running around and destroy jynx that through they could check it. it sucked being walled by roselia and stuff like mantine, but those aren't as common as ludicolo or jynx so imo it's the best set. i went old school and paired it up with swellow to lure in rock-types with u-turn, which meant gorebyss could come in and usually get a free turn of set up.

 

[ryan]

Gorebyss is still really cool, but it also really needs to run Substitute if it doesn't want to get donked by nearly every relevant Choice Scarf user, Kangaskhan, Skuntank, and more. The problem is that most teams are inherently prepared for Gorebyss because the same things that can beat it can also beat a lot of other relevant threats right now. The main thing that keeps me from using Gorebyss is the fact that it can't even scare anything out in hopes of getting up a free Substitute because usually once it hits the battlefield, people are going to stay in and try to hit it while it sets up. FLCL does bring up a good point though that a lot good defensive Pokemon only have Toxic to hit Gorebyss with, so if it finds the right opportunity to set up against defensive Pokemon, it can be a really big hassle.

I think the reason why Gorebyss fell out of favor is because people realized that while Shell Smash is a fantastic boosting move, it's also not impossible to beat. I feel like a lot of newer players are probably instantly attracted to Gorebyss because of Shell Smash, but they don't realize that it's also pretty difficult to use effectively.

 

[DTC]

I think a good portion of the reason why Gorebyss isn't used much is because people would rather use another special attacking Water-type like Samurott. If Gorebyss does not get a chance to set up, it's simply a worse Samurott besides a negligibly higher Special Attack stat. Samurott has better bulk, better Speed, can feint a Swords Dance set, and it has a moveslot for a move like Taunt or Superpower. For every game you can't get Gorebyss set up and sweep, you're using a significantly worse Samurott, which makes Gorebyss an inconsistent Pokemon. That said, the threat of Gorebyss setting up a Shell Smash and potentially sweeping is very big and can make people more conservative with Pokemon such as Choice Scarf Jynx. Speaking of Jynx, the reintroduction of Jynx was pretty big for Gorebyss to, as even though Gorebyss can just carry Signal Beam, Jynx still outspeeds +2 Gorebyss with a Choice Scarf. Choice Scarf Jynx is beloved by many NU battlers, which makes Gorebyss a lot less of a threat while being useful in many other ways.

I'll probably bring up another "Flavor of the Month" Pokemon in a few days, but for now, lets continue this discussion on Gorebyss!

 

[DTC]

Lets get some more discussion in here~

Zangoose is another Pokemon that was suspected a while back, but didn't get banned and ended up not being that common later on. Zangoose is one of the hardest Pokemon in NU to switch into as its wallbreaking power is incredible.

Personally I think Zangoose is still really good. It hasn't changed much from the time it was suspected, but Metang, a pretty good answer to Zangoose, has gotten more common. The main reason why I don't use Zangoose much is there are other offensive Normal-types I'd rather use, most notably Kangaskhan and Tauros. Sometimes it can be hard to get the Toxic Orb boost, and Zangoose isn't exactly strong without it, but that can be fixed with something like a slow U-turn/Volt Switch user or finishing off a weakened enemy.

 

[soulgazer]

Zangoose was quite a threat before the April's drop ( Primeape, Jynx, Scolipede, and fat boi) , because back then the speed to beat was in the 80's (I can't remember correctly :oops:) which Zangoose easily beats with its fantastic base 90 Speed. There was less ways to beat it back then as the faster Pokemon didn't see much usage, so the only way you could protect yourself from it was a Scarfer able to take a Quick Attack from Zangosse, other priority users such as Absol (lost to QA Zangoose), Kangaskhan (Fake Out and Sucker Punch mind games), or walls able to take a it and stall it out with the help of its Toxic Orb.

Since the drops, Zangoose didn't really loses its ability to destroy walls with its monstreous Toxic Boost boosted attacks, as it can actually OHKO Jynx with a Quick Attack after Stealth Rock, Primeape needs a little bit more previous damage but its easy to do with switch ins on Spikes and Stealth Rock, while Scolipede actually does well against it as it it able to survive a Quick Attack after a Stealth Rock switch in. As for Munchlax, we all know it won't enjoy facing Zangoose! I think the main thing that killed Zangoose's usage was how every Pokemon with an higher base speed see more usage than ever in the metagame right now. The metagame adapted itself around the 95 Speed tier, which Zangoose fail close to it unfortunately. Pokemons such as Serperior, Scolipede, Haunter are able to outspeed and beat it one-on-one, while Pokemon who raised as they got a good niche since the drops like Metang, can easily take anything from it and take it out with Meteor Mash.

As for a set I would run nowaday: Quick Attack is a must in the Meta, with so many faster threats running around. The 3 other moves are the mandatory Facade, Close Combat and Night Slash for perfect Coverage. Zangoose should always be paired with slow VoltTurn user such as Eelektross, Musharna or Probopass as they'll let you activate your Toxic Orb safely and gain momentum, which is excellent. You sadly lose Sword Dance, which enchances Zangoose's destructive power, but I would get forced out by any Pokemon faster than it, which aren't rare.

 

[watashi]

i tried to make zangoose work in the nu team study but it was actually pretty bad since most teams either have something that can wall it completely or are so offensive that it only gets one kill before being revenged. it's simply too frail in my opinion and it's offensive power is only good, but not outstanding. i paired it up with musharna, probopass, and eelektross, all of which can use momentum moves to get it in safely and activate its toxic orb. it was nice to be able to plow through some of the poorly built teams on the ladder like this, but any good player could usually stop zangoose from sweeping with ease. it was exceptionally hard to use with all the ghost-types running around because i was required to make live-or-die predictions every turn. so yeah zangoose isn't that good especially when you have other options like tauros and kangaskhan.

 

[Punchshroom]

I knew it! Zangoose's power was a force to be reckoned with in earlier Stages of NU, but come the speed creep and Zangoose is suddenly lagging behind. The surmounting poison damage is also notable since it makes it even easier to revenge kill. Faster Normal-types like Kanga, Tauros, Swellow and Sawsbuck tend to be more effective as they can launch very powerful neutral attacks against fast pokemon, while Zangoose is forced to Quick Attack against most. Unresisted coverage is cool, and its power makes it arguably the hardest Normal-type to wall, but even then pokemon like Metang, Mandibuzz and healthy Golurk can survive its attacks and KO back, which isn't hard considering its fraility and poisoned status. Oh yeah, and it needs the boost if it wants to get going, as its strongest move pre-Toxic Boost is Close Combat (a grand total of 3 reasons why this thing is so easy to KO); Swellow at least has STAB Brave Bird (which has good super effective coverage) for a strong initial strike.

 

[Lasagne]

one big issue with Zangoose that I often find is, as Punchshroom said, the choice of what move to use before your orb is activated. Often I want to use facade, quick attack or night slash, but I can't because I'm not sure if it will kill or not. Therefore, I have to use close combat to secure the kill and get zangoose going. Unfortunately, this drops zangooses defenses and makes it even more vulnerable to priority than it already was.

this is one of the reasons why you need a bulky pivot to get zangoose in safely, the other being zangooses flat out frailness. Musharna, eelektross and probopass are the best for this job, taking a hit and using baton pass/volt switch to bring zangoose in without taking a hit.

toxic orb also really fucks zangoose over sometimes. Its easy for the opponent to spam protect and wear you down with your own toxic damage, especially when its something like Alomomola which can take your hits with ease anyway (seriously fuck that thing). They can also play mind games with you with their ghost and steel types by making you predict what they're gonna do by using night slash/facade/close combat. The steels and ghosts only give a shit about one of your attacks so they can do this all day until they misplay. All the while you're taking poison damage which sucks and makes you die a lot quicker. The offensive spike stacking nature of the metagame atm also wears zangoose down with all the entry hazards thrown around everywhere, so its not gonna be living for a particularly long time.

there's just so many other good offensive normal types right now its hard for zangoose to stand out particularly. Swellow, tauros, Kangaskhan and braviary are all really solid normal Pokemon, and give zangoose a lot of competition, swellow in particular. The only thing I can think of that gives zangoose an edge over swellow is its ability to take on and beat moat steel types (fuck metang/bronzor). Oh and its also not weak to rocks which is cool. Swellow has a lot of advantages though. It has higher speed, a secondary strong stab, and u turn to gain momentum. I think the most useful of these is u turn, as it enables swellow to simply switch out of anything it can't beat while hurting it in the process. Obviously the stealth rock weakness isnt very useful for a u turner, but w/e.

the main reason zangoose isn't as good in the current meta as he was in the pre-fastmons one is his speed. Its certainly not a bad speed stat. 90 is pretty good, and before Jynx, Primeape and Scolipede, it was brilliant as it outpaced the base 85s like sawk. Now though, 95 is the speed to beat, and zangoose just doesn't quite cut it. Swellow, however, excels now more than ever, hitting a base 125 speed, which outspeeds the entire tier bar like electrode, ninjask and scarfmons. Quick attack somewhat remedies this for zangoose, allowing it to hit and ko (I think) Jynx and Primeape before they can retaliate.

the recent Mandibuzz drop also affected the poor mongoose badly. Mandi completely walls zangoose, and can easily do damage back with foul play (or brave bird if you want but that's gay). This just pushes zangoose even further down the food chain, and it gets to the point where zangoose often becomes a liability on your teams.

zangoose is just a really cool mon which unfortunately fell from favour this meta, and just isn't as good as it was previously. All the things I listed contributed to zangooses downfall, yet it still manages to hang onto a rank by the skin of its teeth.

lets not forget the most important thing though. Zangoose looks fucking awesome.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

I think the biggest problem with Zangoose is that it doesn't really have much over the other status orb users. Swellow and Toxic Orb Ursaring are both faster than it and while it's more powerful than both, the thing is that in this meta, being a) frail and b) unable to outspeed base 95s is pretty much a death sentence if you don't have anything else as a niche.

inb4 Armaldo and Braviary and Rotom-S

 

[DTC]

this case of "flavor of the month" is not as bad as gorebyss / zangoose but sawsbuck was hyped up quite a bit when it first dropped, but isn't very common in today's metagame. some people were even considering it for a suspect because it didn't have many good answers after a swords dance.

i think sawsbuck is pretty fine but it doesn't get many chances to set up swords dance without substitute, and with substitute it hits a lot less hard because you have to forgo life orb for leftovers. even with a swords dance, sawsbuck can often find its sweep halted by being too slow / double-edge + life orb recoil. horn leech helps the massive recoil to a certain extent but it's just not enough. if it doesn't get swords dance, it doesn't boast much over the other normal-types besides beating alomomola / rock-types easier. sap sipper is pretty nifty but it's not always safe to switch into grass-types. grass-types like serperior and tangela using hidden power rock over hidden power fire is very very nice for bambi, though, and is a metagame trend bambi can take advantage of.

what do you guys think of bambi? it's another mon that is talked about fairly often but doesn't see much use.

 

[Annoyer]

bambi has always been good and i feel like it was used a lot more (at least more consistently) before the recent drops of jynx, scolipede, primeape (and a bit later mandibuzz) which can all either take it out via speed tie (very reliable ofc esp if your name happens to be ebeast), take a hit in mandibuzzes case, or outspeed and ohko it in the case of scolipede. its not like they directly alter its performance but i guess they made it slightly worse. ive still been using bambi and it still performs as well as it did before. sap sipper is really nice to switch in on grass moves but a lot of grass types can get past by sawsbuck due to frailty and somewhat bad defensive typing (sludge bomb from rose/plume, psychic from eggy, hp tangela) but its still a good check to hp rock serp now. shroom was also nice to bambi by giving it a free boost with spore but most started to carry sludge bomb to deal with it (along with other uses). it can still sweep with swords dance given the opportunity to set up. i usually find sd on it pretty pointless because its really hard to set up a swords dance in the first place so i usually use other options there such as substitute, baton pass (pseudo-uturn as well as passing any attack boosts from sap sipper), and even aromatherapy just in case i need to heal status such as a sleeping mon or something (this has actually been pretty useful a lot of the time as a random filler). boosting move + bpass or subpass or subseed are still decent movesets bambi can utilize. i find nature power to be pretty important to deal with some mons like metang, probopass, and skuntank and gives it a good option to use outside of causing recoil with double-edge which is why i dont usually like using just horn leech and dedge/return on bambi as my only attacks.

bambis main niche in the meta is just as a normal type with a grass typing too and a lot of times, its kinda weak such as not ohkoing otter (not a lot of things do tho) and not doing too much damage to stuff it hits supereffectively like regirock either, but bambi is still a good mon because lo double-edge stil hits like a truck. other normal mons provide good utility (kanga - revengekilling) or pure power in the form of zangoose or tauros which is why making use of sawsbuck's grass typing is really important. anyways ppl should still use bambi since theres no real concrete reason for its decrease in usage other than maybe just being forgotten since it still performs its role pretty well.

 

[HispanicPanic]

Sorry to bring this back to Zangoose, but I just wanted to ouch on something that's really important about Zangoose in the current meta that Cherub Agent brought up in the Stage 10 thread.

A little over 90% of Zangoose are running jolly natures still, and honestly it doesn't seem necessary for this current meta. An adamant nature would be a lot more effective for Zangoose because it still out speeds what it needs to out speeds (Sawk and other base 85's and below), but hits a lot harder than with a jolly nature. Cherub Agent did some calcs on adamant Zangoose in that thread, and they were pretty impressive. It OHKO's Jynx after rocks with quick attack, does 82-97% on Scarf Primeape after a defense drop, and it can take out Charizard with quick attack after rocks and orb recoil. In terms of wall breaking, adamant Zangoose 2HKO's every physical wall in the tier besides Metang. Offensive magnet pull Probopass makes a great partner because it traps Metang, and leaves things open for Zangoose to clean up and even provides a slow volt switch for toxic orb to activate. I gave adamant a try, and it really does clean up teams very well. It has no need anymore for the extra speed from jolly because it comes no where close to reaching base 95 speed, so it doesn't need to worry about speed so much as power. It may not be able to thrive like it did before the drops,but it can still make spot on many teams with an adamant nature. There's just no reason it should still use jolly.

 

[watashi]

imo scolipede really hurts bambi since it is pretty much a better variant of it when it comes to sweeping or even baton passing. they have similar checks/counters but scolipede's coverage is arguably better in the current metagame. on top of that scolipede can also set hazards and absorb toxic spikes. bambi is often stuck just simply attacking which can leave it vulnerable at times in the current metagame, unlike kangaskhan who has priority or tauros who are usually using substitute.

 

[ryan]

I think Annoyer and FLCL have pretty much covered the reasons why Sawsbuck isn't used so much, so I'll talk a bit about how to make it effective. I really don't think that making Sawsbuck effective is very easy, as it has a whole lot going against it right now. I talked to zeb on IRC the other day about a Sub+Baton Pass variant, similar to the set that Mienshao sometimes uses in UU. The basic idea is to Sub against something you can force out and either Baton Pass into something that can beat whatever switches in or hit whatever comes in, assuming that you have a chance to beat it. You can also Baton Pass any Sap Sipper boosts that Sawsbuck might attain in the match, though that's probably not going to be often with the lessened popularity of Grass-types. There are obvious problems with this set. First off, you either have to forgo Life Orb in order to regain HP lost from Substitute or rely on Horn Leech to regain HP. You also have to rely on Sawsbuck's two STABs, which have decent-but-not-great coverage. You also don't have the recovery from Regenerator that Mienshao has when running this set. These are the main reasons why I decided against building around it. While it sounds super cool, the more you look at it, the less cool it sounds.

There's also the possibility of running a sun sweeper set. The problems with this set are similar to the problems with a Sap Sipper Swords Dance set; it's definitely strong, but it needs a boost to hit really hard. It's also incredibly vulnerable to priority from Kangaskhan and Gurdurr (as well as Skuntank if you aren't running Nature Power, though I don't really know why you wouldn't).

In the end, I'd say that Sawsbuck would be as capable as always if it weren't for the natural shifts in the metagame. The Speed tier that it utilized to outpace most common threats has become a standard one to beat. This means that people are inherently prepared for Sawsbuck with faster Pokemon such as Charizard and Zebstrika and/or priority from Pokemon such as Kangaskhan. In this way, the drops of Jynx, Scolipede, and Primeape dropping hurt Sawsbuck more indirectly than anything else.