Evil means a Christian God cannot exist?

[lati0s]

The New Testament was written several hundred years after the supposed events took place. I've seen my grandmother, I've never seen Jesus. Not believing in one is not the same as not believing in the other.

I think it was more like 30-50 years actually, but yeah, no one ever said they didn't believe in jesus, they said the didn't believe he was the son of god.

 

[Obsessed]

I think it was more like 30-50 years actually, but yeah, no one ever said they didn't believe in jesus, they said the didn't believe he was the son of god.

Oh. I thought it was at least 100. Though I could be wrong about that. I'll take your word for it.

I was under the assumption that he was talking about "Jesus the son of god," and not "Jesus, the historical figure."

 

[Electrode]

In order to do that you must be greater than or equal to the thing you are trying to prove(ex: a mathematician prooving a math equation. The mathematician is greater than the math equation.).

First of all, define greater.

Let's say that greater means generally better: stronger, smarter, etc etc.

So, in order to prove something, something must be greater than the thing it is trying to prove. Well, a Christian would argue that the Bible proves God's existance. However, the Bible is just an object, it has no strength, no thoughts, etc, which would technically make God greater than the Bible. But to your logic, the Bible should be greater than God.

Ok, ok, so it's generally useless to compare a god to a book, an inanimate object, so let's say that the person proving existence with whatever tool means they are greater. But then, if the Bible does prove God's existence, man would be using it to do so. Would that make man greater than God? Then why worship God?

EDIT: Also, man couldn't be greater than God (if God existed exactly as Christians believe): man cannot create universes with magic power, among other things.

There are either two options to go for. Either Jesus was insane or He was indeed the Son of God.

He could have been lying.

Well, Jesus was seen performing miricles (many times). These are also in account.

There are accounts of early Egyptian magicians doing mind tricks that fit Jesus' miracles exactly: walking on water, turning water into wine, healing lepers, etc. Jesus could have very well been a creative trick magician.

So what if Jesus was impowered by Satan? First of all if this was true, then he probably wouldn't have cast out all those demons in people.

What happens if God isn't really all powerful; that he's good, but weak. What happens if, at the same time, there's an all powerfull evil god. What if Jesus was a trick to have man worship the wrong god?

EDIT: Assuming that the evil god would reward those who worship him.

 

[MetalGearSamus]

First of all there are several points you must understand that you are a bit confused on

God gave us free-will to glorify himself. If we had no free will, then we would be robots. If you had kids would you want them to be robot kids? I wouldn't either. God loves us so much he accepts our faults even though we are unworthy.


Suffering- You might be under the impression that God created it. Well your wrong. Suffering came about when Eve traded an eternity with God over a piece of fruit. Now if you did something very bad, would your parents punish you or would they say, "Oh, its OK son, I'm not going to do anything about it. Here's a dollar go get something at the candy store?" The truth is God is going to get rid of suffering too (We are simply bound by time and have not conceived its happening yet).

Read the thread before posting please.

The Devil- You must understand God's concept of time. He isn't bound by it. You are. God (in our time) is going to destroy evil. (In our time) It just hasn't happened yet. Read Revelation, chapter 21 or 20 or something like that.

"In our time" is meaningless. Because your god is out side of time, he cannot have any effect on any specific point in time. So when he gets around to destroying the devil, he would be doing it at the creation of the universe and every moment after until it is nothing but black holes and virtual particles.

Is it a test?-You are slightly placing this out of context. God tests you for you not Him. Yes, he knows the answer but you need to choose it. If you choose what is right (and you are a Christian) you will be rewarded in heaven.

Who or what he is testing is irrelevant. The point is that the test itself is pointless and not really a test.

On regards to your other things, it is sadly impossible to prove any God exists scientifically. In order to do that you must be greater than or equal to the thing you are trying to prove(ex: a mathematician prooving a math equation. The mathematician is greater than the math equation.).

"Greater" is an arbitrary value. Mathematicians can describe the fundamental forces of the universe and even create new geometries and separate physical laws. In my opinion the math is greater then the mathematician.

However, we can give evidence.

But you just said that god was beyond science. If even a scrap of "evidence" exists for anything then it is subject to the scientific process. And the bible fails miserably when compared to reality.

The Bible is the most accounted for book in history. We have more manuscripts of it than any other book of that age. The only thing that comes close is the Illyad, which we are missing many many lines from. Furthermore, each of the manuscripts are all 95% identical to eachother, with the only differences being spelling, or things like saying Jesus Christ instead of Christ Jesus.

So? Popularity proves nothing. Slavery was almost universal for most of "civilized" human history, but that doesn't make it morally sound today.

Also, Jesus had thousands upon thousands of witnesses in history. Saying you don't believe in Jesus is like saying you don't believe in your grandmother. It is just simply inconceivable. Now that we have established Jesus is real. There are either two options to go for. Either Jesus was insane or He was indeed the Son of God. Well, Jesus was seen performing miricles (many times). These are also in account. So what if Jesus was impowered by Satan? First of all if this was true, then he probably wouldn't have cast out all those demons in people.

1.All his witnesses died before the new testament was compiled, and orally transmitted stories are easily injected with exaggerations.
2. Just because we reject him as a son-of-a-god-who-is-his-own-father-but-also-a-ghost does not mean we reject his existence and historical significance.
3.There are several other options besides truth and insanity:
-He was honestly mistaken. He truly believed that he was the son of god and wanted to help people
-He was told he was the son of a god and believed it, most likely by his parents.
-He be tollin'!

There are also over a hundred prophecies that Jesus fufilled in the old testament, hundreds of years before Jesus was even born. Jesus fufilled every one of them, too.

We learned about this in 7th grade. It's called foreshadowing. Every book has it.

On to the Omni stuff. I would like to point out that I can't understand God. No one can. But Omnipotece doesn't mean God can do everything.

So: "a=/=a"?
Omnipotence means god can do everything, and because he is supposed to exist outside of reality (and he does, its called fantasy, I hang out with Darth Vader and Tinkerbell when I'm there), then he would not be bound by logical paradoxes like you state:

God cannot lie. God cannot tell you what shape yellow is. God cannot tell you where a circle starts. To do so would involve things against his nature. God knows everything, but this does not mean he loses omnipotence. If you threw a rock in liquid water, you would be able to guarentee it would make a splash. This does not make you lose any power. If you were breathing you could choose how you wanted to breath. If you wanted to breath softly, then you do. This doesn't mean you could have breathed normally. You chose not too.

So you get to personify and put limits on a being that you claim cannot be understood or proven to exist, based on a book that contradicts reality and is as bipolar in writing as the god descried by it.
Amazing.

 

[Seraphic]

I don't really feel like seriously contributing, but I just want to point out that God, assuming he exists, could not destroy the devil. In the bible, Satan had almost as much power as God, so he can fight off God's attempts to destroy him.

 

[MrIndigo]

Those two contradict each other. The observation of homgeneity in the Universe, as well as knowledge of the Big Bang, galaxy formation, etc. allow us to infer that the part of the Universe we cannot see (well, at least the nearest part of it) is probably similar to the visible part.

They don't, though it's a subtle point. Beyond the edge of the observable (not just what we can see, but what we can infer exists from observation) universe, we don't know that anything exists there are all.

We can infer things about the moon based on what we know about gravity, and what we can see from it's effects on the world.

The issue is whether such an 'inference' constitutes evidence. And that's just asking what exactly one means by 'evidence'. The methods we are talking about above are applications of theory (both the general theory of homogeneity, and more specific physical theories like gravity). I'm not sure I'd consider that 'evidence'.

I would; otherwise you can't 'observe' very much at all. Electrons, for instance, are forever inexplicable because they are applications of theory.

Well, as time goes on (and we're talking real long time periods here), some of those currently invisible galaxies could BECOME visible. Their existence could affect us in the future. Conversely, if there is a void just beyond the visible horizon - or if the Universe is topologically closed and 'loops back' upon itself - we would in future be able to observe this fact. (I believe WMAP data has been used to put a lower limit on the size of a closed Universe that's much bigger than what we observe, but doesn't preclude it altogether). So I think it's meaningful to consider whether or not such galaxies exist, even if we are in practice highly unlikely to observe them.

But if they can only affect us in the future, it's the same as them coming into being spontaneously. Without any observation of the nature of the stuff-beyond-the-border, we should not assume anything about it, which includes assuming it's existence at all.

 

[jc104]

I don't really feel like seriously contributing, but I just want to point out that God, assuming he exists, could not destroy the devil. In the bible, Satan had almost as much power as God, so he can fight off God's attempts to destroy him.

According to accepted Christian belief, God is omnipotent - in other words he can do anything. It is not possible to have two omnipotent beings, since if their aims were opposed, they would not be able to simultaneously do opposite things.

If you do not believe God is omnipotent, say so. It is the logical conclusion of the thread.

 

[cantab]

However, we can give evidence. The Bible is the most accounted for book in history. We have more manuscripts of it than any other book of that age. The only thing that comes close is the Illyad, which we are missing many many lines from. Furthermore, each of the manuscripts are all 95% identical to eachother, with the only differences being spelling, or things like saying Jesus Christ instead of Christ Jesus.

Also, Jesus had thousands upon thousands of witnesses in history. Saying you don't believe in Jesus is like saying you don't believe in your grandmother. It is just simply inconceivable. Now that we have established Jesus is real. There are either two options to go for. Either Jesus was insane or He was indeed the Son of God.

Or he was misreported. Or he was speaking metaphorically. Or he was lying (and note that lying about some things does not make everything one does evil). Besides, being 'insane' isn't as bad as you imply. Just take a look at these two lists of insane people.

And where are the documents from these thousands of witnesses? The fact is that there are a handful of documents about Jesus, none of which were written during his mortal lifetime, and many of which are considered false by mainstream Christianity.

The most resource-rich areas of the world are in Africa

The most important resource is productive agricultural land, so that one person can produce food for several, allowing others to do other things. Much of Africa is poor in such land.

And while you are correct that conflict has been a major problem for Africa, that conflict has been inflamed by the availability of weapons produced in the west - simply because Europe industrialised first.

 

[J-man]

just here to say i'm done with this debate most likely. I've been grounded for a month, and most likely this thread won't survive that long. If it does, than expect to see me some time vary late this month.

An interesting thing i've come about is the Bahnsen vs Stein Debate. I'm guessing plenty of you have heard it before, but it's a pretty good debate. It's on youtube and can be downloaded. I reccomend it to one and all.

Another thing, I'm not Catholic. I'm URCA (United Reformed Church America) A protestant Calvanist conservative Church.

 

[drifblim70]

You're seriously going to tell me that God allowed suffering to be introduced to those whom he apparently shows boundless love to (humans) because one single woman traded "paradise" for a piece of fruit. First of all, no. Why the hell would God ever do this? Was that fruit the crux of his perfect world? Why would there ever be a forbidden tree of knowledge in the first place? If you're God, you can eliminate that tree so thoroughly that its existence is never conceived of; God could have maintained that paradise if he wanted to, assuming he has the omnipotence you ascribe to him.

Your argument seems to revolve around the fact that humans are bound by time and that God is not. Great. Yet we can perceive of needless pain in the framework of time that we are trapped in, yes? Do you agree that needless suffering exists? If you don't, justify earthquakes, hurricanes, and highly contagious deadly diseases. Justify the bubonic plague; did one third of Europe have to die for the Renaissance to take place? Don't forget, God isn't bound by time or by human limitations. Omnipotence means he can do anything.

Secondly: God not being bounded by time is not a valid reason for pointless human suffering to exist over time. He isn't "trapped" outside of time; being unbounded by time means he can interact with it and ignore it as he pleases, which means that he could answer our valid concerns if he wanted to.

MetalGearSamus is right too; if God is so unknowable, how the hell do you know so much about him? Because of the Bible? As I stated earlier in this thread, the Bible was compiled under a Roman emperor's orders from many existing texts as he tried to maintain centralized order within his domain around 300 AD, and if you think it is infallible, read the section directly after the 10 Commandments in Deutronomy for a friendly guide on what you can and cannot do with your slaves.

Oh, and sorry about you being grounded, J-man, good luck with that :)

 

[Doctor Heartbreak]

wait a minute, you're a calvinist? haha what?

 

[Obsessed]

wait a minute, you're a calvinist? haha what?

I don't get what is funny. Can anyone offer an explanation?

 

[Ferrouswheel]

According to accepted Christian belief, God is omnipotent - in other words he can do anything. It is not possible to have two omnipotent beings, since if their aims were opposed, they would not be able to simultaneously do opposite things.

If you do not believe God is omnipotent, say so. It is the logical conclusion of the thread.

It depends on your concept of omnipotent, if you take the definition that it means infinite power, then there can be larger/smaller values of infinity.

Speaking for myself, I'm rather glad that it's impossible to either prove God's existence or non-existence. Imagine if it was possible.

 

[Doctor Heartbreak]

I don't get what is funny. Can anyone offer an explanation?

oh, the central tenet of calvinism is absolute predestination. free will cannot exist and every step towards an individual human being's salvation is the work of god alone. so uh i guess that fits with most of what j-man has been saying, but it seemed pretty funny in the context of what he's been arguing against etc

 

[cantab]

It depends on your concept of omnipotent, if you take the definition that it means infinite power, then there can be larger/smaller values of infinity.

The problem is that those infinities are themselves infinitely different (loosly speaking). Meaning either God and Satan's powers are equal - which contradicts Christianity - or God can easily vanquish Satan.

 

[Ferrouswheel]

The problem is that those infinities are themselves infinitely different (loosly speaking). Meaning either God and Satan's powers are equal - which contradicts Christianity - or God can easily vanquish Satan.

Even if they are infinitely different, I believe that it could still take sometime for one infinity to overwhelm the other. I really can't tell you one way or another, after all, infinity is an abstract concept. I have difficulty picturing numbers above a million.

 

[MrIndigo]

oh, the central tenet of calvinism is absolute predestination. free will cannot exist and every step towards an individual human being's salvation is the work of god alone. so uh i guess that fits with most of what j-man has been saying, but it seemed pretty funny in the context of what he's been arguing against etc

I know some Calvanist groups believe in free will.

 

[E-boy]

First of all there are several points you must understand that you are a bit confused on
God gave us free-will to glorify himself. If we had no free will, then we would be robots. If you had kids would you want them to be robot kids? I wouldn't either. God loves us so much he accepts our faults even though we are unworthy.

He accepts our flaws yet he lets us burn for all eternity in hell.

The Devil- You must understand God's concept of time. He isn't bound by it. You are. God (in our time) is going to destroy evil. (In our time) It just hasn't happened yet. Read Revelation, chapter 21 or 20 or something like that.

Something that exists out of time just can't even exist. If I say, in 9 months time my sister will get pregnant and a baby will come to existence, the baby does not exist at the time I say so. It only comes to existence when it is born.

Suffering- You might be under the impression that God created it. Well your wrong. Suffering came about when Eve traded an eternity with God over a piece of fruit. Now if you did something very bad, would your parents punish you or would they say, "Oh, its OK son, I'm not going to do anthing about it. Here's a dollar go get something at the candy store?" The truth is God is going to get rid of suffering too (We are simply bound by time and have not conceived its happening yet).

God knew Eve would do as happened, so at the core, he created suffering just by creating that piece of fruit. If he didn't, Eve couldn't have traded anything, because the fruit wouldn't be.

Is it a test?-You are slightly placing this out of context. God tests you for you not Him. Yes, he knows the answer but you need to choose it. If you choose what is right (and you are a Christian) you will be rewarded in heaven.

So basically you get rewarded for a decision which you can base on absolutely nothing. It's like heads or tails. Throw tails and you go to heaven, throw heads however and you burn for all eternity.

On regards to your other things, it is sadly impossible to prove any God exists scientifically. In order to do that you must be greater than or equal to the thing you are trying to prove(ex: a mathematician prooving a math equation. The mathematician is greater than the math equation.). However, we can give evidence. The Bible is the most accounted for book in history. We have more manuscripts of it than any other book of that age. The only thing that comes close is the Illyad, which we are missing many many lines from. Furthermore, each of the manuscripts are all 95% identical to eachother, with the only differences being spelling, or things like saying Jesus Christ instead of Christ Jesus.

This doesn't prove anything. It's just an old book.

Also, Jesus had thousands upon thousands of witnesses in history. Saying you don't believe in Jesus is like saying you don't believe in your grandmother. It is just simply inconceivable. Now that we have established Jesus is real. There are either two options to go for. Either Jesus was insane or He was indeed the Son of God. Well, Jesus was seen performing miricles (many times). These are also in account. So what if Jesus was impowered by Satan? First of all if this was true, then he probably wouldn't have cast out all those demons in people. There are also over a hundred prophecies that Jesus fufilled in the old testament, hundreds of years before Jesus was even born. Jesus fufilled every one of them, too.

Witnesses who are long dead by now and didn't give us any touchable proof.

On to the Omni stuff. I would like to point out that I can't understand God. No one can. But Omnipotece doesn't mean God can do everything. God cannot lie. God cannot tell you what shape yellow is. God cannot tell you where a circle starts. To do so would involve things against his nature. God knows everything, but this does not mean he loses omnipotence. If you threw a rock in liquid water, you would be able to guarentee it would make a splash. This does not make you lose any power. If you were breathing you could choose how you wanted to breath. If you wanted to breath softly, then you do. This doesn't mean you could have breathed normally. You chose not too.

God can lie. He almost made Abraham kill his son to 'test' him. (btw, in my opinion that's just sadistic)
And God cannot tell us what shape yellow is because this goes against the logic God created himself. He could just 'change' his laws of logic and nature and then tell us what shape yellow is. The same thing applies to your other examples.

 

[cantab]

If you want to know what shape yellow is, ask a synesthete.

 

[MrIndigo]

I didn't know there were synesthesiae related to adding attributes to colour, I only knew of adding colour to other things (numbers and voices are common examples).

 

[Saintla]

Oh hi guys, a Christian here.

Why can't you just leave me alone and stop making threads like this?

I really would like to sit blissfully in my own ignorance and believe in fanciful stories about a man who is Chris Angel with a bigger beard.

Not only are these stories completely degrading to both women and homosexuals, they are even degrading to the average Christian. Fear god!

And who cares if the majority of my major beliefs are a multitude cheap ripoff's of ancient pagan ones!

Leave me and my wrathfull/mercifull/oxymoronic god alone!

 

[MrIndigo]

Not only are these stories completely degrading to both women and homosexuals, they are even degrading to the average Christian.

I don't understand what you mean here.

 

[cantab]

I didn't know there were synesthesiae related to adding attributes to colour, I only knew of adding colour to other things (numbers and voices are common examples).

I don't know of any either. The point is a generic one. If it had been said "what colour A440 (the musical tone) is" or "what f tastes like", then the questions would seem equally absurd, yet there are known synesthesiae that would probably produce that.

I'm not sure if any point is to be made beyond that though.

 

[waterwizard]

He's also a just God. "For the wages of sin is death... but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

We sinned against an infinite God. God cannot tolerate sin (he's Holy), so he sent his son and the holy spirit to reconnect with us.

Also, this is an interesting idea:

The angels are foreordained/designed NOT to sin. They cannot experience the grace that we do.


Ask God to help you understand. You can't know him through intellect alone.

 

[Altmer]

He's also a just God. "For the wages of sin is death... but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

So... natural disasters? Very just, eh?

We sinned against an infinite God. God cannot tolerate sin (he's Holy), so he sent his son and the holy spirit to reconnect with us.

No, Adam and Eve sinned against an infinite God. I do not wish to bear the misplaced burden that they carry.

Ask God to help you understand. You can't know him through intellect alone.

You don't just "know things".