Dragonite

[Nite Ace]

So I have this suggestion, a set that I've been trying and its paying off lately

Agility Policy: Adamant, Multiscale, Weakness Policy. 252 HP, 252 Attack, 6 Speed

-Dragon Claw/Outrage
-Earthquake
-Extreme Speed/Fire Punch
-Agility

My thought process when creating this set was to find a way to cover what Dragonite struggles with, to boost in attack and speed. While 1 DDance does not suffice the speed boost Dnite requires, Agility does without the need for the Jolly nature that lowers the attack stat significantly. After a +2 an Admanat Dragonite can outspeed a Timid Greninja, reaching a total of 394 with 6 EVs in speed (keep in mind that even without the EV investment in speed it wont matter; 392 total). The max HP investment is necessary in order to ensure that Dnite lives with the most amount of HP possible to set up an Agility and get the Weakness Policy boost. If you wanna invest in Def/Sp.Def for some reason you're free to go as a low as 220 EVs in HP, but not any lower, because with that it can live a Life Orb Protean Ice Beam from Timid Greninja and a Jolly Ice Fang from Mega Gyaradous with Multiscale intact according to calcs. You can use Outrage instead of Dragon Claw if you feel the need for more damage output, but Dragon Claw will take care of everything that does not resist it after +2. Earthquake hits everything hard, and Fire Punch can be ran instead of E-Speed if you want Dnite to take care of the Steel types by himself. Although E-Speed can function as a revenge killer against weakened Pokemon.

Magnezone and Mandibuzz are perfect partners for this set. While Magnezone take cares of the Steel and Fairy Types, Mandibuzz takes care of entry hazards and Choice Scarfers (Dnite Can out speed most if not all after +2 if they don't carry a Scarf) thanks to Defog and Knock Off. Whirlwind is an option to stop a Pokemon from setting up as well, hence Dragonite can't take boosted super effective hits as good. Just like any other set up sweeper, it needs to be used the right way and in the right situation.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

So I have this suggestion, a set that I've been trying and its paying off lately

Agility Policy: Adamant, Multiscale, Weakness Policy. 252 HP, 252 Attack, 6 Speed

-Dragon Claw/Outrage
-Earthquake
-Extreme Speed/Fire Punch
-Agility

My thought process when creating this set was to find a way to cover what Dragonite struggles with, to boost in attack and speed. While 1 DDance does not suffice the speed boost Dnite requires, Agility does without the need for the Jolly nature that lowers the attack stat significantly. After a +2 an Admanat Dragonite can outspeed a Timid Greninja, reaching a total of 394 with 6 EVs in speed (keep in mind that even without the EV investment in speed it wont matter; 392 total). The max HP investment is necessary in order to ensure that Dnite lives with the most amount of HP possible to set up an Agility and get the Weakness Policy boost. If you wanna invest in Def/Sp.Def for some reason you're free to go as a low as 220 EVs in HP, but not any lower, because with that it can live a Life Orb Protean Ice Beam from Timid Greninja and a Jolly Ice Fang from Mega Gyaradous with Multiscale intact according to calcs. You can use Outrage instead of Dragon Claw if you feel the need for more damage output, but Dragon Claw will take care of everything that does not resist it after +2. Earthquake hits everything hard, and Fire Punch can be ran instead of E-Speed if you want Dnite to take care of the Steel types by himself. Although E-Speed can function as a revenge killer against weakened Pokemon.

Magnezone and Mandibuzz are perfect partners for this set. While Magnezone take cares of the Steel and Fairy Types, Mandibuzz takes care of entry hazards and Choice Scarfers (Dnite Can out speed most if not all after +2 if they don't carry a Scarf) thanks to Defog and Knock Off. Whirlwind is an option to stop a Pokemon from setting up as well, hence Dragonite can't take boosted super effective hits as good. Just like any other set up sweeper, it needs to be used the right way and in the right situation.

A similar set has been suggested and discussed on the preview thread and on IRC, and has also been soft-rejected due to situational use (requires many perfect conditions). Additionally, +1 Jolly Dragonite after one boost ironically achieves more power than this Dragonite would with an Agility boost, the rare Weakness Policy boost notwithstanding.

Post consecutive logs to prove this set's viability.

 

[Nite Ace]

A similar set has been suggested and discussed on the preview thread and on IRC, and has also been soft-rejected due to situational use (requires many perfect conditions). Additionally, +1 Jolly Dragonite after one boost ironically achieves more power than this Dragonite would with an Agility boost, the rare Weakness Policy boost notwithstanding.

Post consecutive logs to prove this set's viability.

I realized that you were right. Jolly, 220 in HP, 148 in attack, and 140 in speed. Able to out speed and hit hard with +1 DDance while providing some bulk (Although the drastic decrease from 604 to 511 in attack after +1 is a waste of potential, but sacrifices should be made I guess) . An Adamant nature would require heavy EV investment in speed and it wont be able to sustain the balance between bulk, speed, and hard hitting.

 

[Punchshroom]

I don't like bumping, but this is Dragonite we're talking here, a pretty influential OU Pokemon compared to the OU-viable UU mons that keep receiving the attention. Some input would be nice, if not QC.

 

[TheManlyLadybug]

In Checks and Counters, mention Mega Aerodactyl as a check. It can tank an Outrage from the DD set or a Dragon Claw from the CB set and respond back with a Stone Edge. If Multiscale is broken, Aerodactyl wins, but if not, Dragonite wins. Here are some calcs:
So say AeroD switches in for free somehow, maybe by luring Earthquake with Heatran and switching to Mega Aero, idk. Then Mega AeroD outspeeds and:

252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 177-208 (53.7 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Then Dragonite follows it up with Outrage:

252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 253-298 (83.7 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The next turn, Dragonite picks off Mega AeroD with an ExtremeSpeed:

252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 56-66 (18.5 - 21.8%) -- possible 5HKO

That is what will happen if Dragonite's Multiscale is intact. If not:

Dragonite's user will try to get some chip damage on Mega Aero:

252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 56-66 (18.5 - 21.8%) -- possible 5HKO

And then, Mega Aero will OHKO with Stone Edge:

252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 354-416 (107.5 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO.

And Mega Aerodactyl will walk away with hardly a scratch.

The take home message: Mega Aerodactyl should be mentioned in C&C as a shaky check, and stress that Multiscale has to be broken on Dragonite in order for Mega Aerodactyl to OHKO with Stone Edge.

 

[Jukain]

Can you get rid of the rain set? There really isn't any reason to use it...stuff like Taunt Thundurus, Torn-T, SD Kabutops, etc are better at breaking walls and aren't so ungodly slow. This set also fails to take advantage of Multiscale, which is a lot of what makes Nite so good. It might be worth an OO mention, but a main set? You'll have to convince me that it is particularly good at wallbreaking as opposed to other wallbreakers, such that it is worth a precious rain team slot. alexwolf pretty much said 'here this exists it's good take my word for it', which doesn't make any sense.

 

[Swamp Link]

Overview

I would mention competition from other Dragon Dance sweepers like Mega Charizard X as a problem it faces.

4MSS kind of sucks on this thing, it really wants DD/Outrage/Espeed/Earthquake/Fire Punch/Roost.
Dragon Dance:

Moves

Talk about how Extremespeed can be a bit weak

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 177-209 (49 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 195-230 (65.4 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 160-189 (66.3 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Usage Tips

Say that it's best to bring it on Pokemon that it can easily beat or force out like Heatran, Mega Venusaur, Keldeo, etc. This way, it's possible to set up a Dragon Dance on the switch and then one as you tank an attack from the Pokemon that comes in.

I think it's best to put the point about Outrage vs. Dragon Claw with regards to the item in Moves instead of Set Details.

Team Options

Wallbreakers like Kyurem-B and Aegislash are nice. Mega Charizard Y could be used to chunk a lot of stuff as well as bring Sun, which stops Sandstorm from breaking Multiscale.

Defoggers need a mention with the Rapid Spin users too.

Choice Band:

Moves

I don't think Dragon Claw should be slashed. Having Outrage as your only Dragon-type move on a Choice set really sucks, and the Elemental Punches aren't really necessary. Azumarill is 2HKO'd by Earthquake after Stealth Rock. Togekiss is pretty bad and isn't used much. Fire Punch doesn't do enough to Skarmory, and I don't think hitting Scizor and Ferrothorn is worth it. It's fine to mention them here, but not slash.

Usage Tips

Say that it's an early game wallbreaker that can be played pretty recklessly to open up sweeps for other Pokemon.

Team Options

Defoggers are good teammates along with Rapid Spinners. Forretress sucks though, don't mention.

Rain Wallbreaker:

Set Details

Mention putting the 164 EVs in HP if you use Roost, since Superpower / Earthquake achieves the KOs you need even without investment
Usage Tips

The comment about luring is strange since those Pokemon usually wouldn't switch into Dragonite. Stress that it's an early to mid game wallbreaker most of the time.

Team Options

Talk about Defoggers and Swift Swimmers.

Checks and Counters

Landorus-T is a good one you missed, especially since they usually run Stone Edge now. Mamoswine's still a good revenge killer, even with Extremespeed. Also, remove the mentions of Dragon Claw on the Rain set, since it doesn't come up earlier.

Good work on a big analysis. Implement these and you can consider yourself

QC 1/3

EDIT: Thunder Punch still doesn't have much use on CB Dragonite, but Fire Punch is good, and you rarely need to use Dragon Claw. Make Fire Punch the sole move in the last slot and just mention the other two.

I'm also testing the Rain Wallbreaker set, and right now I'm leaning towards just OO. It's really slow in comparison to other Rain attackers and is forced out very easily. Rain can pack other Pokemon to beat the stuff that Dragonite handles anyway. I'll try it some more, but I'll get back to you by the end of the day for my opinion on it.

 

[Aircraft Cemetery]

Azumarill and Togekiss are 2HKOed by ESpeed after Stealth Rock Damage, which is why Thunderpunch probably isn't a viable option on the banded set any more, plus it's generally terrible to be locked into a non-stab 75 base power electric move in OU. If you expect those to switch in, just use ESpeed.

On the other hand, Fire Punch is very useful. It 2HKOes max HP max Def Impish Skarmory after Stealth Rock damage and even has a chance of 2HKOing without Rocks. I think the ability to destroy Scizor and Ferrothorn is very strong too. It should be noted that if your team has a good way to deal with Aegislash, Superpower over Earthquake is an option as well. Certainly inferior to EQ on most teams, mainly due to Aegislash and EQ's ability to hit incoming Fairies hard, but I'd consider it an option nonetheless.

 

[Swamp Link]

Yeah, Rain Dragonite is just mediocre at best. Rain can carry other sweepers that deal with what it does like Tornadus, Thundurs, Kabutops, and others. Move it to OO.

 

[Colonel M]

Yeah kill Thunder Punch in Choice Band. Mostly a moves section mention at best. It makes sense on Dragon Dance more than Choice Band.

 

[Fuzznip]

Yeah, move the rain set to OO, I and others on #xyqc completely agree.

 

[dcae]

After a bit of discussion/brainstorming, we decided that Thunder Punch and Fire Punch should only get a mention in moves and not a slash due to both being quite inferior to EQ overall on the Dragon Dance set.

 

[TheManlyLadybug]

I agree with the above users on moving the rain wallbreaker set to OO, it's just not as good as it used to be, and there are better options to take up those precious team slots on a rain team. Don't forget to remove any mention of the rain wallbreaker outside of OO.

 

[Punchshroom]

Made the changes. I also slashed Dragon Claw after Fire Punch on the CB set, and expanded the C&C section slightly.

 

[Alter]

Great job. Just remember to split up the Checks & Counters section as per the new analysis format when you're writing this up. I'd also suggest removing Wrap from OO as it's a very bad option overall and I wouldn't recommend its use in XY OU to anyone.

QC APPROVED 2/3

You can start writing this in paragraph form now.

 

[Punchshroom]

I revamped the Overview and C&C sections significantly. Thoughts?

 

[Alter]

I revamped the Overview and C&C sections significantly. Thoughts?

Overview looks fairly good and I skimmed over the Checks and Counters section as well. The latter is pretty subjective when it comes to determining the best c&c group names (e.g. some people would debate you mix the Outrage sponges and physically bulky Pokemon section) because there is no real standard on it. At the end of the day, how you structure the Checks and Counters is a lot up to you. That being said, the content in terms of the Pokemon that you listed all seems fine. One thing that I would suggest is adding Weavile to the Ice-type Pokemon section as it can check both variants of Dragonite fairly well with Ice Shard (I think ESpeed only does 70% at +1, so it's not the best check but it's worth a little mention probably).

Edit: On second thought, dismiss my suggestion of Weavile. I didn't think that through well enough.

 

[Punchshroom]

I made a small change to the EVs on the Dragon Dance set. Moved the 24 EVs from HP to Defense.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 280-330 (85.1 - 100.3%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 273-322 (84.52 - 99.69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Ash Borer]

Throw Iron Tail / IRon Head into OO. Sure, Iron Tail has garbage accuracy, and IRon Head needs Stealth Rock to get a ~75% chance to 2HKO Fully physically defensive clef after SR and factoring in Flinch chance. However, the ability to deal significant damage to or even beat your greatest counter, that which has pretty high usage is worth mentioning. Dragonite isnt even completely starved for moveslots anyways, Extremespeed is quite nice as is Fire Punch but both can be foregone if Fairy-types must be crushed..

Iron Tail @ Choice Band even has a chance to OHKO PHys Def Clef after rocks. That's not bad at all.

Also user CrashinBoomBang has a simply epic Roost 3 attack specially defensive set to show you set that he claims is very anti meta, easily taking on the big threat that is Charizard Y as well as checking nearly anything and doing so consistently thanks to Roost. So stay tuned for that.

 

[Punchshroom]

Also user CrashinBoomBang has a simply epic Roost 3 attack specially defensive set to show you set that he claims is very anti meta, easily taking on the big threat that is Charizard Y as well as checking nearly anything and doing so consistently thanks to Roost. So stay tuned for that.

Super Mario Bro and I already talked about a set like yours. Unless your mentioned set operates substantially differently, I'm not sure if I'll pull it out of the OO section for now. You'll (or he'll) need to show this set here.

 

[CrashinBoomBang]

Dragonite (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Multiscale
EVs: 216 HP / 64 Atk / 228 SDef
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed
- Roost

Dragonite's combination of awesome bulk, movepool, ability as well as a very valuable typing make it a great pivot for offensive teams. By virtue of its Dragon/Flying typing, it easily takes most of the attacks Pokemon such as Landorus, Aegislash, Mega Charizard Y and Specs Keldeo (although Icy Wind is semi-common), all four powerful foes that give most offensive teams a hard time switching in, can launch and threatens them greatly in return. It also handles Thundurus-I rather well as 1 on 1. Even with the relatively small attack investment, Dragonite easily 2HKOs Leftovers Thundurus-I before it can do the same back with Hidden Power Ice, while Life Orb Thundurus-I takes enough recoil damage to be 2HKO'd by Dragon Claw + Extremespeed. Dragon Claw + Extremespeed also 2HKOs Deoxys-S. Earthquake handles foes such as Heatran and Aegislash who would otherwise wall you with ease and does more damage to Mega Tyranitar, although it will still set up on you quite easily.

EVs allow you to survive 2 Sludge Waves from Landorus after Stealth Rock (well, 99% of the time, when I realized that I couldn't get a spread that guaranteed survival without missing out on the jump point at 64 attack EVS I just figured I'd take that; 220 HP/228 SDef always survives two), which is about the strongest common non super-effective attack you will be switching into. You can put more EVs into attack if you feel thats needed or think you can guarantee that SR is off for most of the battle, and you can even run other moves such as Iron Tail or even special attacks on this guy. That's the great thing about bulky Dragonite: you can mix and match moves and EVs as you see fit and handle whatever your team has problems with. That also makes it radically different from the Parashuffler/Defensive SubTail Dragonite which tried to shuffle/paralyze/rack up hazard damage. This Dragonite uses his naturally high attack and good bulk to be a bulky offensive threat that some Pokemon can't really break through.

Counters are obviously hard to pick out because of your insane coverage but I found that Specially Defensive Hippowdon tanks even Ice Beam with ease so thats one of your best bets probably.

Outdated MixBulkyNite

Dragonite (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Atk / 96 SAtk / 108 Spd
Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
- Roost
- Ice Beam
- Earthquake
- Hurricane

EVs outrun Mega Venusaur and make up for the speed drop from Quiet (still more efficient than lowering any other stat since you really want all six) while HP were maxed for bulk. Ice Beam always OHKOs non-Yache Garchomp and Hurricane allows you to 2HKO Mega Venusaur, all so Scarf Excadrill can go to work (mostly the Landorus though). Earthquake for Heatran and Aegislash mostly, but also allowed me to beat Zard Y by Ice Beaming until they Roosted and then EQing. Probably outdated but I'm sure a different set similar to this one is still perfectly viable, and I know Dice has been using a more offensive mixed Version.

So yea, as already mentioned EV spreads/movesets are variable so if other QC members agree that a set like this should be implemented then we just have to figure out an actual set!!

Random Calcs because I felt like it

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 216 HP / 228 SpD Dragonite: 130-153 (34.4 - 40.5%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 216 HP / 228 SpD Dragonite: 129-153 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 216 HP / 228 SpD Dragonite: 108-127 (28.6 - 33.6%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 216 HP / 228 SpD Dragonite in Sun: 126-149 (33.4 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 216 HP / 228 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 104-124 (27.5 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 216 HP / 228 SpD Dragonite: 208-248 (55.1 - 65.7%)
64+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 172-204 (57.3 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
64+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 115-136 (38.3 - 45.3%)

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 216 HP / 228 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 265-312 (70.2 - 82.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
64+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 178-211 (62.2 - 73.7%)
64+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 119-141 (41.6 - 49.3%)

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 216 HP / 228 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 222-263 (58.8 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
64+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 308-366 (101.9 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 292-345 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
64+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 236-278 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
64+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 79-93 (26.5 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

[Punchshroom]

CrashinBoomBang
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 216 HP / 228 SpD Dragonite: 130-153 (34.48 - 40.58%) -- 4.69% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Where did you get your Lando-I calc? This is what from Honkalculator (they did not state Leftovers, but they do factor it, otheriwse it's ~50% chance to 2HKO).

In any case, this is definitely what I felt was missing from this analysis, a Dragonite that takes full advantage of its bulk, typing, Multiscale, and offensive prowess. I'll input this, though I'm still a bit mixed on what kind of attacks it should run that cover the most threats (should it aim for neutral coverage, or maximum super effective coverage). I'll get working on it.

Edit: I also upped the QC count since I felt more input would be needed for the bulky Roost set.

 

[CrashinBoomBang]

I used the official Showdown Calculator for that. In any case, as long as 220/228 still isn't 2HKOd on that calculator all should be fine since I move 4 HP EVs into Attack for a jump point.

 

[Punchshroom]

I used the official Showdown Calculator for that. In any case, as long as 220/228 still isn't 2HKOd on that calculator all should be fine since I move 4 HP EVs into Attack for a jump point.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 220 HP / 228 SpD Dragonite: 130-153 (34.39 - 40.47%) -- 3.13% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The chance is substantially decreased, but I still cannot seem to approach the <1% chance you got. This applies for your Aegislash calc as well.

252+ SpA Gengar Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 216 HP / 228 SpD Dragonite: 129-153 (34.21 - 40.58%) -- 3.13% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I think this is the most likely reason:
Your calc - 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 216 HP / 228 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 265-312 (70.2 - 82.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

My calc - 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 216 HP / 228 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 530-624 (140.58 - 165.51%) -- guaranteed OHKO (with Stealth Rock)

 

[CrashinBoomBang]

Hmm, that's weird. I'll try to figure out the issue behind this.

Also yea that Greninja calc was supposed to be with Multiscale up I don't know why it still mentioned Stealth Rocks in that part at the end.