DP Dialga

[umbarsc]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/dialga

I've been using this set to great success in ubers for some time, so I thought I'd write up a peer edit for it. I apologize if someone already made a Peer Edit for this set.

[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Thunder
move 3: Dragon Pulse
move 4: Aura Sphere / Earth Power / Overheat
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set attempts to patch up Dialga's lackluster (in uber terms) speed by giving him a Choice Scarf. Even without the boost Expert Belt or Choice Specs provides, Dialga will still be putting massive dents in the opponents with Draco Meteor. With Stealth Rocks up, Draco Meteor will always 2HKO standard 40 HP Mewtwo with Draco Meteor, and will almost always OHKO 4 HP Darkrai. Standard Latios (4 HP / 0 SpD) is always OHKOed by Draco Meteor, though his more defensive sister Latias will always survive if EVed defensively. Thunder strikes down Kyogre, whereas Dragon Pulse is useful for late-game sweeps. Aura Sphere allows for consistent damage against enemy Dialga (though it's utterly futile against Blissey), whereas Overheat is an easy OHKO on all Scizor, Forretress, and Metagross. Earth Power is an option for Jirachi and Metagross that isn't dependent on the weather, and it hits enemy Dialga for the same base power as Aura Sphere.</p>

<p>The main reason to use this over other popular Scarfers, such as Scarf Palkia and Scarf Kyogre, is the resistance to Normal granted by its Steel-typing, making it the perfect revenge-killer to the deadly Swords Dance Extremespeed Rayquaza. Aside from that, there is the obvious surprise factor, as most Dialga invest very little in speed anyways and certainly aren't expected to be outspeeding Base 150 Speed Pokemon. Dialga's bulky defenses and near-perfect typing allow to take a few hits, which is something most other Scarfers (like Palkia) can't boast.</p>

<p>Although Dialga can go physical with Scarf, it's not recommended because of his lower physical Attack and lower base power moves. Likewise, going mixed is not a good idea because Dialga is forced to invest many EVs in SpA/Spe and won't be 2HKOing Blissey with Brick Break anyways. If tying other Base 90 Speed Choice Scarf Pokemon (Kyogre, Groudon, other Dialga) isn't a concern, 204 Speed EVs allow it to outspeed Deoxys-A, with 52 EVs in HP for more durability.</p>

I've also decided to write up the Special Choice set in case the general consensus is to merge it into one set.

[SET]
name: Special Choice
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Aura Sphere
move 3: Dragon Pulse
move 4: Thunder / Overheat
item: Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Timid / Modest

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>With 150 Base Special Attack and Dragon STAB, Dialga has potential to cause a lot of damage in ubers attacking from the special side. A Choice Specs-boosted Draco Meteor from Dialga is one of the most powerful special attacks in the game, and anything that isn't a Steel-type and isn't Blissey will have a very hard time switching into it. Aura Sphere, Thunder, and Overheat take care of the former with ease, though Blissey will be able to switch in and stall Dialga out with ease. Aura Sphere is a 2HKO against Tyranitar and opposing Dialga if Dialga is holding a Choice Specs, and a OHKO against the omni-present Darkrai regardless (assuming it's at least taken Stealth Rocks damage). Thunder is the more practical choice because it takes advantage of Rain, it OHKOs most Kyogre, Lugia, and Manaphy without the SpD drop, and it has a chance of paralysis. However, if one is using this on a team with Groudon, feel free to run Overheat to OHKO all Steels (barring Dialga and Heatran), as opposed to a 2HKO from Aura Sphere or Thunder.</p>

<p>The choice between holding a Choice Scarf and Choice Specs depends on whether you want the raw power from Choice Specs, or the extra Speed from Choice Scarf. Choice Scarf allows Dialga to revenge-kill Darkrai, Rayquaza, Palkia, Deoxys-A, and Kyogre, among other threats. However, Scarf Dialga lacks the wall-breaking ability of Specs Dialga, who can fire off Draco Meteors and be sure to cause some damage. If you choose to equip Choice Specs, feel free to use an EV spread of 224 HP / 252 SpA / 32 Spe, which outspeeds Adamant Tyranitar, and gives Dialga more opportunities to switch in against the likes of Kyogre, Palkia, and Manaphy.</p>

 

[jrrrrrrr]

<p>This set attempts to patch up Dialga's lackluster (in uber terms) speed by giving him a Choice Scarf. With a Timid nature and 200 EVs, Dialga outspeeds everything up to and including max speed Deoxys-A. Even without the boost Expert Belt or Choice Specs provides, Dialga will still be putting massive dents in the opponents with Draco Meteor. With Stealth Rock(Removed (s)) up, Draco Meteor will always 2HKO standard 40 HP Mewtwo (Removed "with Draco Meteor"), and will almost always OHKO 4 HP Darkrai. Standard Latios (4 HP / 0 SpD) is always OHKOed by Draco Meteor, though (Removed "his more defensive sister") Latias will always survive if EVed defensively. Thunder strikes down Kyogre, whereas Dragon Pulse is useful for late-game sweeps. Aura Sphere allows for consistent damage against enemy Dialga (though it's utterly futile against Blissey), whereas Overheat is an easy OHKO on all Scizor, Forretress, and Metagross.</p>

"Draco Meteor will always 2HKO standard 40 HP Mewtwo with Draco Meteor,"

"his more defensive sister Latias will always survive if EVed defensively"

come on man did you even proofread this paragraph?

Removed some stuff from here.

<p>The main reason to use this over other popular Scarfers, such as Scarf Palkia and Scarf Kyogre, is the resistance to Normal granted by its Steel-typing, making it the perfect revenge-killer to the deadly Swords Dance Extremespeed Rayquaza. Aside from that, there is the obvious surprise factor, as most Dialga invest very little in speed anyways and certainly aren't expected to be outspeeding Base 150 Speed Pokemon. Dialga's bulky defenses and near-perfect typing allow it to take a few hits, which is something that other scarfers like Palkia can't boast. </p>

The part about specifically Palkia isn't necessary since the beginning of the sentence really applies to all other Uber scarfers, so I just made it slighty more general. Feel free to change the words around a bit if you want but I think my general idea is correct.

<p>Although Dialga can go physical with Scarf, it's not recommended because of his lower physical Attack and lower base power moves. Likewise, going mixed is not a good idea because Dialga is forced to invest many EVs in SpA/Spe and won't be 2HKOing Blissey with Brick Break anyways. If outspeeding Deoxys-A is not a concern to you, an alternate EV spread of 64 HP / 252 SpA / 192 Spe with a Modest nature allows Dialga to outspeed max speed Mewtwo while being nearly 10% more powerful, which can yeild some important KOs (the ability to 2HKO Lugia with Thunder, for example).</p>

You should mention in this EV paragraph that maxing speed could also be very beneficial since many other Ubers have base 90 speed (like Dialga), and you could guarantee that you outspeed them if you max it. I feel another Palkia mention is good here since you won't ever be outspeeding max speed Palkia.

 

[Ike]

You need at least 204 evs to out speed deo-a.

 

[umbarsc]

Nope, I just rechecked the math, 200 outspeeds +speed Deoxys-A.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Nope, I just rechecked the math, 200 outspeeds +speed Deoxys-A.

No, it only ties with that spread. 292 x 1.5 = 438.

 

[umbarsc]

Never mind, I see what I did wrong (I was calculating the nature before the EVs for some reason)

 

[gengod]

Seems like something that can be left for Other Options as it doesn't exactly differ from the Choice Specs set and the minor advantages of using Choice Scarf can be explained in the EV section of the analysis.

 

[User 12783]

Seems like something that can be left for Other Options as it doesn't exactly differ from the Choice Specs set and the minor advantages of using Choice Scarf can be explained in the EV section of the analysis.

Adding on to this, it sort of limits Dialga's capabilities in my eyes as you aren't gaining power but only speed, and even if Dialga is slow, it can take a lot of hits very effectively and with Choice Specs has the power to kill more things as well. In an environment with Rayquaza and Palkia, Dialga is outclassed as a Dragon-based Revenge Killer. All you would be doing with this set is limiting Dialga, and while you're limiting it, you aren't getting a big pay off from it either, which Choice Specs will give.

 

[umbarsc]

What exactly does Palkia and Rayquaza have that makes them superior to Dialga in terms of revenge-killing?

I can tell you one thing Dialga has over them: ExtremeSpeed resistance. That makes this the much better Rayquaza revenge-killer, as they both generally run a Hasty nature and will be taking massive amounts of damage from ExtremeSpeed after a Swords Dance.

This is very different from the Choice Specs set in my experience. The extra speed granted by this really makes all the difference, especially in such an offensive metagame. I really don't see what is "Other Options" about it. If you want a bulkier, slower attacker then of course it's outclassed by Choice Specs. But that's not really the purpose of this set.

 

[User 12783]

There is only one Pokemon in Ubers that runs this move and from my experience hasn't been seen much lately, and usually Groudon is using on all teams so you have a counter to Rayquaza all ready which is usually just DD or Mix. Both are stronger than Dialga and can tie or outspeed it. The thing isn't that it gets out classed, the thing is it has better options in Choice Specs than Choice Scarf, as it can't hold it's own against revenge killers, and the only fact the differentiates it from Rayquaza is ExtremeSpeed, is too little a fact, as ScarfQuaza has more attacking stats. The Uber metagame we play in has very, very good Special Walls in Latias and Blissey, and this set can get raped by both with good prediction. It won't hurt Latias enough as it will avoid being KO'd and just recover. Choice Specs will at least but more attacking power in Dialga, will you can still use it as a tank.

Also, Rayquaza has a Fighting resistance if you're gonna play that game :/

I know you think it's good and all but it's not good enough with many other hard hitters and better equipped Pokemon, so I'm recommending this to be just in Other Options

 

[gengod]

This is very different from the Choice Specs set in my experience.

Maybe in terms of how you use it and the EVs, yes. But it is essentially the same moveset listed in the Choice Specs set and therefore only needs mentioning in Other Options with an alternate EV spread.

 

[umbarsc]

Choice Specs Dialga is also utterly powerless against Blissey. Draco Meteor will do a minimum of 80% to standard Latias, and it outspeeds it for the 2HKO if Latias is switching in. Tyranitar is destroyed by Aura Sphere if it switches in (minimum 62%). Lugia and Giratina are 2HKOed by Thunder and Draco Meteor respectively (the former only with Stealth Rocks up).

Special walls aren't really that common in the current uber metagame. In my experience, I'd much rather have the ability to outspeed the entire metagame (barring Deoxys-E and other Scarfers) than the ability to hit switch-ins harder. But they're both options, and separate options, and the analysis should reflect that by keeping them as separate sets.

Maybe in terms of how you use it and the EVs, yes. But it is essentially the same moveset listed in the Choice Specs set and therefore only needs mentioning in Other Options with a mention of an alternate EV spread.

Isn't how you use it what's actually important? That's like saying that Swords Dance Garchomp and CBChomp should be one set because it's just an item change and one single moveslot is different.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Yeah I don't buy that argument at all. It's the exact same moveset, youre trying to hit the same exact things and youre still countering the same exact threats, just with a tradeoff of speed and spatk. Palkia will still outspeed you with Scarf, Jolly DD Rayquaza still beats you after a DD and wrecks you with EQ etc etc. The scarf really isn't game changing on Dialga, its just makes it a better revenge killer. The moveset is exactly the same and in my experiences with both this set and other Dialga sets I don't really think that its worthy of its own set. It's really that similar.

With that said, yes, it is how you use it that is actually important. The whole "this is one of the best revenge killers in Ubers" thing is an awesome trait that the scarfer has that other Dialga sets don't. I was skeptical of adding this set until I actually tried it.

And you really think there are no special walls in Ubers ?____?

 

[Aldaron]

this post is for jrrrrrrr's and Aldaron's purposes...

questionable not sure what to do here, I think the Specs can just have a / for Choice since I really cannot see the merits of using ScarfDialga sans surprise

still, more discussion I guess

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I think this is worthy of its own set, you can tell that they are different based on just the EV spread alone. This set *has to* have its speed EVs so it can outspeed Deoxys etc, but the other one is more bulk-reliant. This and the Specser are very different in nature and are completely different beasts to handle.

 

[gengod]

I think this is worthy of its own set, you can tell that they are different based on just the EV spread alone. This set *has to* have its speed EVs so it can outspeed Deoxys etc, but the other one is more bulk-reliant. This and the Specser are very different in nature and are completely different beasts to handle.

I disagree there. The Specs set and this aren't very different and the same pokemon that stop the Specs set are going to stop this as well. The only thing different between this and the Specs set are the EVs and there isn't really much to say about it except to mention what it can outspeed with the approiate EVs.

I agree with Aldaron in saying this can be left as / Choice and simply mentioning the merits it has over Specs, however I want to post a Scarf Dialga as well, and its actually quite a bit different from this one, but we shouldn't exactly be posting new peer edits at the time. If you want then I could post it in this Peer Edit though.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

As long as there is a significant mention of the merits of the Choice Scarf and this EV spread, sure.

This is played completely differently than the scarfer, even if the same things stop it. Like, you can come in against Darkrai even if it's carrying Focus Blast and either force a switch or OHKO it surprisingly. Even if it has a very similar moveset, the EV spread alone is enough to show how significantly different this set is from the Specs set in the analysis currently. Look at the differences in the things you are outspeeding and then tell me that the set isnt used completely differently. The specs set is trying to outrun Tyranitar and min speed Groudon/Kyogre, while this set can outspeed Deoxys-A. The description also I think makes it worthy of its own set...but I guess as long as this gets represented somehow in that Choice set everything will work out.

 

[gengod]

As long as there is a significant mention of the merits of the Choice Scarf and this EV spread, sure.

This is played completely differently than the scarfer, even if the same things stop it. Like, you can come in against Darkrai even if it's carrying Focus Blast and either force a switch or OHKO it surprisingly. Even if it has a very similar moveset, the EV spread alone is enough to show how significantly different this set is from the Specs set in the analysis currently. Look at the differences in the things you are outspeeding and then tell me that the set isnt used completely differently. The specs set is trying to outrun Tyranitar and min speed Groudon/Kyogre, while this set can outspeed Deoxys-A. The description also I think makes it worthy of its own set...but I guess as long as this gets represented somehow in that Choice set everything will work out.

If you look at it like this than you can pretty much say this for any pokemon that has a Choice Band/Specs set that uses the same moves as its Choice Scarf set. A description of the set's merits and EV spread added to the Choice Specs set with a name change to the more general "Choice" seems like the best way to go about this peer edit instead of making an entrirely new set about it.

 

[Slobroking]

why not just max out speed so you can tie with timid scarf kyogre and outspeed any scarf palkia that isnt using positive nature? 52 hp evs isnt going to do anything i think

also this is a good set ^_^

 

[jrrrrrrr]

A description of the set's merits and EV spread added to the Choice Specs set with a name change to the more general "Choice" seems like the best way to go about this peer edit instead of making an entrirely new set about it.

Sounds good to me. My main concern was that someone would use the HP-heavy EV spread that is meant for the specs set on the scarfer. A description of the EV spread in the Choice analysis sounds like a great compromise to me.

 

[umbarsc]

If you're going to have different EV spreads, slightly different movesets (Aura Sphere is not a necessity, whereas Thunder is, for example), different items, and they play differently, what exactly is the purpose of squeezing them into a single set? It's not as if we're trying to conserve space on the analysis. It looks kind of messy to have one set then have to explain the different items, the different EV spreads, and how the set is played with either item in the Set Comments.

Also, I wouldn't say that the same things deal with them. If I'm up against Specs Dialga, I'd try to deal with it the same way I'd deal with Specs Kyogre. I'd just wear it down with speed and revenge-killers, unless I happened to pack a Blissey on my team (which isn't terribly useful in ubers in my opinion). Scarf Dialga is much more easily handled by a slow, bulky, stall team than Specs Dialga.

 

[umbarsc]

So is more discussion needed (if this truly needs its own set or just needs a slash on the Specs set) or is this ready to be put up on the SCMS?

 

[Havak]

Well if more people agree, I'm fine with this set and I'll upload it later. It's just that there's been discussion of merging with the Specs set, so I don't want to go ahead upload without more confirmation.

 

[Aldaron]

It hasn't even been decided yet lol how can it be uploaded?

Maniac and Jrrrrrrr seem to agree that it should be edited into the Specs set, with some of the descriptions being integrated and the name being changed to Choice.

So Umbarsc, please edit this to exactly how we would replace the Choice Specs set on the site.

 

[umbarsc]

I don't see why you would merge this onto one set. I suppose I could write up a "Special Choice" set with Specs and Scarf, but that's rather messy as I would have to explain the subtle differences between movesets, the merits of either item, the different EV spreads, and how either set is played out.