Doubles Stage 3.5 Suspect Nomination / Discussion

[Electrolyte]

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 140 Def Mega Gengar: 270-320 (83.3 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
60/80/95 isn't stellar by any stretch of the imagination, but it can do that. Also, ever hear of the moves Follow Me and Rage Powder? They, with his pre-mega-evolving ability levitate, give him ample opportunities to switch in.

Overall, I am definitely for banning gengarite.

Dude, nobody runs Jolly Landorus-T. Adamant is not only way more used but also way better - and becomes significantly more popular as you go up the ladder.

252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 140 Def Mega Gengar: 300-354 (92.5 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Also, that spread is hilariously inefficient, and was designed for the Perish Trapping set (which is the only part of MGengar that's actually close to being broken imo) Unless Mega Gengar invests in Special Attack, it's really weak lol


And listen to Pwnemon, he knows what he's talking about. Regular Gengar is bad; if you see it, it's almost always Mega, unless there are other better possible Mega Evolutions on the opposing team.

EDIT @ below: Then yeah lol that spread I don't even know what it is but it's not a plausible argument

 

[Laga]

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 140 Def Mega Gengar: 270-320 (83.3 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
60/80/95 isn't stellar by any stretch of the imagination, but it can do that. Also, ever hear of the moves Follow Me and Rage Powder? They, with his pre-mega-evolving ability levitate, give him ample opportunities to switch in.

I think uncompetitiveness of Mega-Gengar can fall under two (or more that I've forgotten about) main categories.
1) It isn't too obvious from team preview. Sure, This Team exists, but in most cases, you don't know that Gengar is the Mega. Gengar, along with Scizor, Gyarados, Tyrantitar, Garchomp, and a few others, are pokemon that can function well as both mega and non mega, and so if more than one is on the same team, you may have a little trouble deciding which can easily leave you open to loosing two pokemon to perish trap, or W-o-W trapping, or just loosing a pivotal member of your team, all because of one miss predictions. One miss prediction early in the game should be punished by putting you at a disadvangage, not by likely loosing the whole game. In soccer, you don't loose because your opponents scored on you in the first ten minutes. You don't loose a 5k race because you started near the back of the round for the start. Yes, comparing a sport to doubles is not a very good argument, but the principal is the same. One early screw up shouldn't cost you so severely.

First of all, 95% of people that know dubs use adamant, and second of all, the 1) point is irrelevant because normal gengar is kinda irrelevant.

Also, it's not really that unpredictable

edit: HOLY FUCK DID I JUST GET DOUBLE NINJA'D HNGGGG

 

[champetero]

Electrolyte tbf that isn't my/nollan spread which can live an adamant quake from lando-T.

 

[Qazoo306]

Dude, nobody runs Jolly Landorus-T. Adamant is not only way more used but also way better - and becomes significantly more popular as you go up the ladder.

252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 140 Def Mega Gengar: 300-354 (92.5 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Also, that spread is hilariously inefficient, and was designed for the Perish Trapping set (which is the only part of MGengar that's actually close to being broken imo) Unless Mega Gengar invests in Special Attack, it's really weak lol


And listen to Pwnemon, he knows what he's talking about. Regular Gengar is bad; if you see it, it's almost always Mega, unless there are other better possible Mega Evolutions on the opposing team.

EDIT @ below: Then yeah lol that spread I don't even know what it is but it's not a plausible argument

The spread was made to show that mega Gengar can live some powerful super effective moves and that it can be EVed to survive a lot.
Edit: yes, I know this is a dumb stat spread, but physically defensive Gengar (an oxymoron in itself) can live powerful hits.
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Gengar: 242-288 (74.6 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Gengar: 244-291 (75.3 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And specially defensive Gengar can live this
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mega Gengar: 260-308 (80.2 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
These calcs aren't meant to be realistic, but to prove that Gengar has usable bulk for stalling the turns it needs to (especially with the WoW trapping set).

 

[Lolk]

If the calcs aren't realistic, than how could you use them in a reasonable argument? I could say Landorus-T is broken because it can be EV'ed to live Azumarill's Waterfall, but just like Gengar, all of a sudden its speed and power are exploitable. If anything, you are making the argument for it being not broken even more solid, showing that Mega Gengar is unable to survive these common attacks in Doubles without sacrificing its Speed and Offensive support (which make is suspect-able in the first place). If Mega Gengar could maintain that bulk and have enough speed and power to do its job, then you would have a logical argument for it being broken.

 

[Bughouse]

I highly recommend those who claim Mega Gengar to be broken to actually use it (and not just on the ladder). I have used it pretty extensively on one team that is quite effective, but nowhere near broken.

If it is to be tested, Mega Gengar should be tested (or flat out banned like Koko did for Shadow Tag in UU) for purposes of uncompetitiveness. I haven't found Mega Gengar to be broken in the slightest and would absolutely vote to keep it in Dubs.

 

[Fangame10]

imo, Instead of Suspect testing Mega Gengar we should be suspect testing perish song it's self, which is where the issue of perish trap comes from. other than perish trapping pokemon, Gengar remains frail in this meta, Although it is very strong and fast able to out speed most opps. it's frailness means can be 1hkod it's self by common ground pokemon such as Landorus and garchomp via earthquake or other ghost/psychic types, Even band/LO talonflame has the potential to ohko it. It's major threats are being able to destiny bond and trap the opponent. it is very good though at trapping and forcing players into bad type combos. Mega gengar on it's own is by no means OP. Perish song on the other hand is where the perish trap strat comes from, instead of banning a perfectly good pokemon, we should suspect test the move it's self. that will allow mega gengar to still be used and perish trapping to longer destroy unprepared players. If gengar was removed Perish trap would not stop, People will still use Gothitelle and gothorita(eviolite) with a support perish song pokemon.

 

[Pocket]

I'd rather not ban Perish Song entirely, since I view semi-perish trap as a viable and competitive strategy. Full-perish trap teams are kinda ridiculous, but kinda bad and inconsistent as well to really require intervention IMHO.

Quoting Pwnemon:

I personally side with darkmalice in that perish trap isn't too effective (the complaint with baton pass was that it was virtually unbeatable unless you had a specific counterteam option, meanwhile perish song does not require any specific countermeasures to beat consistently) nor as entirely autopilot

 

[Qazoo306]

imo, Instead of Suspect testing Mega Gengar we should be suspect testing perish song it's self, which is where the issue of perish trap comes from. other than perish trapping pokemon, Gengar remains frail in this meta, Although it is very strong and fast able to out speed most opps. it's frailness means can be 1hkod it's self by common ground pokemon such as Landorus and garchomp via earthquake or other ghost/psychic types, Even band/LO talonflame has the potential to ohko it. It's major threats are being able to destiny bond and trap the opponent. it is very good though at trapping and forcing players into bad type combos. Mega gengar on it's own is by no means OP. Perish song on the other hand is where the perish trap strat comes from, instead of banning a perfectly good pokemon, we should suspect test the move it's self. that will allow mega gengar to still be used and perish trapping to longer destroy unprepared players. If gengar was removed Perish trap would not stop, People will still use Gothitelle and gothorita(eviolite) with a support perish song pokemon.

I like the idea, I've been convinced against Gengar's brokenness, but in my oppinion, the move perish song itself isn't the issue. It can be used to force switches, but it has the nasty side effect of forcing you to switch as well, hindering yourself in a sense. I can use perish song to check a deadly threat like a Dargon Dance Tyranitar that I accidentally let get set up. The move's issue arises from when you can't switch out, when you're forced to switch but can't.
Therefore, I propose a complex ban; "The move perish song may not be used in conjunction with any trapping abilities, including Shadow Tag, Arena Trap, and Magnet Pull."

 

[champetero]

Just want to say something about lando-T as a perish trap counter, it really depends on what situation mega gengar comes in. For example if he comes in when lando-T is locked into stone edge the threat of earthquake isn't there which means you can disable him without much fear and get a perish trap off.

A live example is a match i had vs pwn http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogondoubles-110119188 (skip to turn 9) So i was able to get gengar in and use perish song while he switched his rotom-W to lando-T, so i was able to stall his lando-T and amoonguss so i could perish trap them with use of protect and letting my gengar take a hit since amoonguss couldn't do much. This is an example why i don't think Lando-T is that good of a counter because depending on the situation gengar comes in he could either not be able to pull a perish song or pull 1 off while tacking damage but in the end you end up in the better position cause u just KOed 2 of his pokemon.

 

[Fangame10]

That complex ban actually makes a lot of sense, like the endless clause, I'd be ok with banning perish with Trapping moves. This means people can still use perish trap and Mega Gengar without having any OP Perish-trap scenarios occur :D. everyone wins...except perish trappers...

 

[champetero]

Fangame10 really unless the perish trap user forces you into a free perish trap situation/the other person uses protect and stuff out on perish trap then it's really hard to get a perish trap for free because gengar is just so frail even with bulk investment.

 

[Stratos]

I guess it's time to put this thread to rest, then.

The council decided not to test Mega Gengar.

Simply put, if you think Mega Gengar is broken, try using it instead of facing it. It's not easy. He adds little to a team defensively, uses your mega slot, and has very few good matchups to come in on. Yes, if you get it in on the right things, you are going to basically take control of the match with both fists, but that's not easy to orchestrate vs a smart opponent.

The council decided not to test Perish Trap.

To quote me, "honestly i feel like if we're going to do something about full perish song then we should just quickban it among the council, not bother with a test. This isn't a matter of "is it broken?" (it isn't) its just a matter of "do we want to ban something just for being pretty gay?" That's a policy issue, not something a suspect test would help us decide."

So we held a vote on Perish Trap and whether we wanted to implement some sort of quickban solution to it. Three council members have yet to vote, but the results so far are 7 no votes to 1 yes vote. Basically, we didn't think that perish trap required any sort of specific counterstyle, just general smart play, to beat, so it wasn't worth banning just because it's dumb. champetero rejoice.

In summary, nothing came of this thread except some discussion because doubles is super balanced. that's a good thing n__n. now lets all just go have fun playing, maybe in a couple months we'll revisit the suspect issue. If not, expect a new round shortly after ORAS comes out.