Discussion: Hazers/Pseudohazers in D/P

[Sand Alchemist]

Surprisingly, in this new metagame where we have some Dragon Dancers, Nasty Ploters and Swords Dancer, the Hazers seem be very inexistent. I´ve been only 2 Hazers (maybe I´ll be forgetting one or two more):
-Weezing with Haze.
-Skarmory with Roar.

We have too:
-Milotic can have Haze, but it usually never uses it (it uses Surf/Ice Beam/Recover or Rest/Hypnosis or Sleep Talk)
-Donphan can Roar, but usually it Ice Shards, Stealth Rocks and Rapid Spins.

One of the reasons for the lack of hazers can be Taunt, but only two standar Pokemon use Taunt: Gyarados an Tyranitar. And now the standar set of Tyranitar is the CBander.

What do you think?

 

[garsh0p]

swampert roars also.

i'm not sure about the abundance of stat up pokemon. alot of people seem to be relying on items for boosts, rather than on stat up moves. maybe hazing isn't necessary anymore.

 

[Ness]

Tentacruel can Haze, Rapid Spin and Toxic Spikes in the same set.

 

[mHMM]

i've seen a few SR + Roar Rhyperiors too, but thats sort of Swampert's deal.

 

[Big Bayou]

Hippowdon is so underrated in this department. Even Tauntrados switch-ins doesn't bother it much because it can fire Stone Edges and even Thunder Fangs from base 112 atk.

 

[Sand Alchemist]

swampert roars also.

i'm not sure about the abundance of stat up pokemon. alot of people seem to be relying on items for boosts, rather than on stat up moves. maybe hazing isn't necessary anymore.

I´m thinking in opening an discussion about Knock-Offers xD.

Well, we have:
-Swords Dance Infernape
-Swords Dange Garchomp
-Swords Dance Weavile
-Dragon Dancer Tyranitar
-Dragon Dancer Gyarados
-Dragon Dancer Salamence
-Calm Mind Suicune
-Curse Snorlax
-Nasty Plot Azelf
-Nasty Plot Infernape
-Nasty Plot Porygon-Z
-Nasty Plot Alakazam
-Ninjask

But yes, Item boost (Life Orb, Choice Band, Choice Specs) are very more used than boost attacks. That can be one of the reasons that Tangrowth (the best Knock-Offer of the game in my opinion) and Knock-Off Gliscor (and maybe in one future Knock-Off Donphan and Knock-Off Lickilicky too) are rising.

 

[TheMaster42]

Pokemon like Gyarados (Dragon Dance), Azelf (Nasty Plot), and Garchomp (Swords Dance) that stat-up once on the switch, aren't really countered by p/hazers.

Normally for these pokes they bring it in and force something out. When it switches they stat-up once and then start attacking.

If you bring in a hazer just to negate one stat-up, they can just stat-up again when your hazer switches out.


Hazing is most useful for negating multiple stat-ups, and baton-passers. In a metagame where everything "good" can set up in just one turn (or less), the cost of hazing and switching just isn't worth it.

 

[Big Bayou]

Pokemon like Gyarados (Dragon Dance), Azelf (Nasty Plot), and Garchomp (Swords Dance) that stat-up once on the switch, aren't really countered by p/hazers.

Normally for these pokes they bring it in and force something out. When it switches they stat-up once and then start attacking.

If you bring in a hazer just to negate one stat-up, they can just stat-up again when your hazer switches out.


Hazing is most useful for negating multiple stat-ups, and baton-passers. In a metagame where everything "good" can set up in just one turn (or less), the cost of hazing and switching just isn't worth it.

But sometimes that Haze or Roar saves the rest of your team from being swept. It's largely a panic button.

 

[TheMaster42]

But sometimes that Haze or Roar saves the rest of your team from being swept. It's largely a panic button.

If there is an enemy poke with one stat-up, under what circumstances will switching in a hazer to erase the one stat-up save you even a single HP?

I'm assuming I'm missing something, here. Let's explore the options.

 

[Firestorm]

If there is an enemy poke with one stat-up, under what circumstances will switching in a hazer to erase the one stat-up save you even a single HP?

I'm assuming I'm missing something, here. Let's explore the options.

He means as a sacrifice I think. If they're sweeping with "one" statup, it's usually Swords Dance or Nasty Plot. Or maybe Dragon Dance. Removing that "one" stat up can be crucial for something else to kill it (by outspeeding it or living through it).

 

[Big Bayou]

He means as a sacrifice I think. If they're sweeping with "one" statup, it's usually Swords Dance or Nasty Plot. Or maybe Dragon Dance. Removing that "one" stat up can be crucial for something else to kill it (by outspeeding it or living through it).

Pretty much. Later game, a sturdy Phazer can save you from what would otherwise be an embarrassing sweep. It's not always a sacrifice, though, especially if your HP is high enough and you have some way to heal your Phazer like Wishpassing or Recover. Your Pokemon's welfare largely depends on what you Roar/Whirlwind to.

Oh yeah, and a plus about Phazing moves is that the Pokemon using them to counter threats don't necessarily have to be able to damage or cripple them otherwise. They're an umbrella counter.

 

[Edux]

The fact that Hazers and PHazers are not that common is a good sight in order to use things like CMCune, CMRaikou, SDGarchomp, etc, don't you think??

People is gettin' worried about CBWeavile, CBTar and others so we can take advantage of it...

 

[freaktron]

-Nasty Plot Alakazam

Alakazam doesn't get Nasty Plot according to Serebii.

 

[Mekkah]

You don't need something with Roar/Whirlwind for most of these, mostly for Baton Passing Pokemon. Direct threats like Dragon Dancers are better handled by general durability, good resistances and effective counterattacks. You send in some bulky Water or Cresselia into Salamence, not something random with Whirlwind/Roar. Heck, Ice Beam Suicune does better against both Salamence and Gyarados than Roar versions do.

 

[gabriel]

PHazers can help doing some SR/Spike damage which make them even better than true Hazers.

Also, Reflect and Light Screen in a good wall (Blissey/Cresselia) is usually enough to stop a heavy sweeper. As everything pointed on Mekkah's post.

The lack of good Hazers is also a pain, but, as surprising as it can be, a Hazer Milotic once survived my Azelf's Nasty Ploted Life Orb Thunderbolt. It probably was a Calm max HP/Sp.Def Milotic, but I'm sure it wasn't holding a Focus Sash (a pointless item for Milotic), so it seems Milotic can be a good Special Hazer.

 

[Yoshi King]

Blastoise used for Hazing has saved me from being swept many a time. With it's above-average defenses and decent HP, it can take the hit necessary (unless it's a STAB'd Nasty Plot'd Thunderbolt) to use Haze and then allow another Pokemon to come in and attack.

 

[btway]

hey, with the addition of focus strip, you're now guaranteed a p/haze from your p/hazer (if you only have to haze once), but the only thing that would carry focus strip out of the p/hazers list would be weezing.

i guess you could try exploding right afterwards.

 

[Yoshi King]

hey, with the addition of focus strip, you're now guaranteed a p/haze from your p/hazer (if you only have to haze once), but the only thing that would carry focus strip out of the p/hazers list would be weezing.

i guess you could try exploding right afterwards.

Except with stealth rock running around on a lot of teams, Focus Sash is useless except on your first guy unless you have Rapid Spin. Even then, your opponent can easily just Stealth Rock again, rendering your efforts useless. Too much setup for too little payoff.

Usually a good Hazer is someone that can tank/recover, Milotic being an excellent choice.

 

[btway]

Except with stealth rock running around on a lot of teams, Focus Sash is useless except on your first guy unless you have Rapid Spin. Even then, your opponent can easily just Stealth Rock again, rendering your efforts useless. Too much setup for too little payoff.

well assuming that you have something like starmie to spin away the rocks (and attack), and you're facing a stat-upper (since we ARE talking about hazing things), i highly doubt that your opponent would switch back to some other pokemon to set up the rocks again if they already have a nasty plot up. therefore you'd basically sacrifice your spinner so that your weezing can haze and kaboom.

 

[Sir Spanky]

Just noting Snorlax can whirlwind

 

[ADH]

Things like being threats more than phazing. Weezing special sets counter stat uppers like Gyarados better. Phazing's best for spikes / SR abuse or countering BP.

 

[Great Sage]

The thing about Roar now is that most things have better things to do, and as for Hazers, Darkrai is the only one that can kill the standard DDTar, and it does so with great trouble, and only Darkrai and Thunderbolt Weezing kill DDGyarados, and Thunderbolt Weezing will kill DDGyarados regardless, so Haze is a waste. Only Darkrai and Honchkrow can live through Azelf and kill it, and Honchkrow needs Sucker Punch to do so.

 

[-FL-]

i've seen a few SR + Roar Rhyperiors too, but thats sort of Swampert's deal.

I fought with that one not so long ago, it's a pain in the ass and the sturdyness of Rhyperior allows it to Phaze.

 

[gabriel]

Except with stealth rock running around on a lot of teams, Focus Sash is useless except on your first guy unless you have Rapid Spin. Even then, your opponent can easily just Stealth Rock again, rendering your efforts useless. Too much setup for too little payoff.

Usually a good Hazer is someone that can tank/recover, Milotic being an excellent choice.

I don't think Focus Sash is useless on a Hazer because of SR/Spikes, as you can just Rapid Spin them or recover your HP with Wish, but because of the commom Sandstorm.

Also, Weezing is not a SO good Hazer, since it can't stand Special hits, and will probably be 2KOed by any boosted move, it becomes even worse since it's really slow and relies on Pain Split to recover damage

 

[TheMaster42]

I think there's a lot of confusion about what is actually a "stat-upper" and what p/hazing is desirable to counter.

Read what Mekkah said:

You don't need something with Roar/Whirlwind for most of these, mostly for Baton Passing Pokemon. Direct threats like Dragon Dancers are better handled by general durability, good resistances and effective counterattacks. You send in some bulky Water or Cresselia into Salamence, not something random with Whirlwind/Roar. Heck, Ice Beam Suicune does better against both Salamence and Gyarados than Roar versions do.

Let's take a look at a list:

I´m thinking in opening an discussion about Knock-Offers xD.

Well, we have:
-Swords Dance Infernape
-Swords Dange Garchomp
-Swords Dance Weavile
-Dragon Dancer Tyranitar
-Dragon Dancer Gyarados
-Dragon Dancer Salamence
-Nasty Plot Azelf
-Nasty Plot Infernape
-Nasty Plot Porygon-Z

All of these are not "stat-uppers" that you'll benefit from p/haze to counter. (I saw someone call them "boosters".) These pokemon are designed to scare something away, and use ONE boost on the switch. Then they sweep the best they can with speed and power.

A hazer does not counter a single boost:
Turn X+0: Hazer switches in, above poke boosts.
Turn X+1: Hazer uses Haze, above pokemon attacks and deals at least some damage.
Turn X+2: Your counter switches in, above poke boosts.

Now you're back at Square One, and your hazer did nothing but take free damage.


A phazer (roar/whirlwind) is not better than a real counter (for single boost pokes):
Turn X+0: Phazer switches in, above poke boosts.
Turn X+1: Above poke attacks for some damage, phazer uses roar/ww and blows it away for no damage.

Yes, the poke is gone. But it's not better than this:
Turn X+0: Counter switches in, above poke boosts.
Turn X+1: Counter threatens KO, so above poke has to leave. Counter can predict and smack the incoming foe's poke.


P/hazing for clearing stat-ups (I'm pretty sure) is only the counter for: pokemon that spend at least multiple turns boosting or passing boosts.

Such as:

-Curse Snorlax
-Ninjask
-Calm Mind Suicune

Once these pokes have 2 or 3 boosts on them, p/haze becomes worthwhile to use, because you can get a counter in on them and they'll only have one stat-up (when your hazer switches out).


So when we're talking about useful counters in this thread, make sure you're saying the difference between something that just "boosts" once before attacking, and something that is a true "stat-upper" or baton passer: something that's investing multiple turns into stat-ups.



Exceptions
Okay, a lot of this is generalization. Let me add some caveats before you all jump on me, hehe.

• You could have situations where your p/hazer is still your best save. Maybe you don't have a counter for foe's pokemon X that could scare it away. I think this is the "umbrella counter" that Big Bayou was talking about. Yes, a roar/ww will force it away, but it's not better than a real counter. The foe's pokemon has taken no damage, and it could still come in and set up, and your roar/ww dude will still have to switch in and take damage.

• Roar/Whirlwind still have their own merits as moves that force switches. If you have some spikes/stealth rock, Roar/whirlwind causes damage in and of itself. This still doesn't make them useful for clearing single stat-up, "boosting" pokes, though.

• I'm a newb, and I'm sure something I've said is just horribly wrong. Sorry, lol, and feel free to correct me. ^_^

Honestly, the original question was "why aren't there a lot of P/hazers anymore" and my answer to part of the question is: because the only thing they specifically counter is multiple stat-up pokes/baton passers, and there are very few of those in this generation.