what would be a good moveset if i want to make a decidueye who can both be use as an anti-stall mon and defog at the same time?
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Pokémon Decidueye
- Thread starter Jaguar360
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I think it's biggest advantage is that you don't really know what it's going to really do until it does it. In the last few posts, we've had people say that it's only good as a specific niche...then go on to list three different sets. After a SD, it can pass it off or use it itself (with Sucker Punch\Low Sweep). Or it can impromptu sp.wall and weaken it's switch ins with Feather Dance. Or it can trap pass. Or it can work with a hazard team reliant on punishing heavy switching.
Probably something like:
Decidueye @ Leftovers
Careful Nature (+SpD, -SpA)
252 HP/4 Atk/252 SpD
- Spirit Shackle
- Defog
- Roost
- Toxic/Leaf Blade
Shackle + Toxic messes with walls, Defog undoes their entry hazard work, if you have Toxic Spikes support Leaf Blade can act as secondary STAB.
On another note I guarantee you this owl has so much fanboy support that there are hundreds, nay, thousands of owl Stans on ladder trying to make Decidueye "work" as I type this.
More like it's well-rounded but has nothing to really set it apart. If they moved some of those points in SpAtk into Speed it would be so much better.
Power is always contextual. Really depends on where Decidueye ends up tier wise, although honestly as the arguable best Ghost/Grass type (his competition sucks, but still) he could see niche use even in OU. As someone said pages ago he offers quite a bit of role compression (high SpD pivot, pseudo trapper, Defogger, solid Grass STAB, etc).
80 Power Mean Look is the most unique thing about it. It's also pretty unique in how it managed to make 530 BST feel so damn low. That distribution by Gamefreak is just devious. Somehow with an above average BST it isn't fast, bulky, or strong offensively.
No. Decidueye can be either a deffoger or a trapper for passive pokemons in general. Use it in combination with sweepers like ash greninja and it will do well.
12 pages in. We finally realized what Decidueye does in OU.
Nothing significant.
Yes. It is terrible.
Decidueye's average offenses and defenses sell itself short on offensive and defensive sets. Its low Speed is also a major drawback to it.
What doesn't help, of course, are the absolute worst sets presented from this thread. Curse? Assault Vest? Choice Scarf ? I get in prebank things like this could fly, but post bank makes Decidueye look really bad. Defog is probably one of its okay niches, and even then there are much better Pokemom to consider for clearin entry hazards such as Latios, Careful / Jolly Excadrill (bonus - can use Stealth Rock), Skarmory, and others. Swords Dance passing is often done better by other Pokemon that are either faster, more durable, or better typing.
Yeah Spirit Shackle is cool and some users like Negative One have been one of the better people to display what it can do, but outside of that you should not use Decidueye in OU.
Lower tiers seem more accepting for this mon, which is fine.
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I initially was not interested on Decidueye, but I saw the comments on this thread and decided to give it a shot. I liked it most as a bulky pivot utility mon (I love bulky pivot utility mons).
Decidueye @ Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 248 HP / 52 Atk / 200 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Spirit Shackle
- U-turn / Baton Pass
- Roost
- Defog / Leaf Blade / Swords Dance
This is my set so far on Decidueye. I made it into a bulky pivot akin to Scizor-Mega that can also trap if needed. Of course, this kind of moveset has been talked about for so much already, so instead, I would try to justify the EV spread.
I gave it enough defense EVs to avoid a 2HKO from Starmie's Ice Beam, which this set aims to counter hard because you can switch in to a Rapid Spin and hopefully kill them.
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 200+ SpD Decidueye: 161-190 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
52 Atk Decidueye Spirit Shackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 218-260 (84.1 - 100.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Starmie dies after taking the Life Orb recoil.
The Attack EVs also help you one shot Tapu Lele through Stealth Rock. Their HP Fire would not do anything to you, don't worry.
52 Atk Decidueye Spirit Shackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 246-290 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
These are the calcs that I have for now, but I shall research more on it. I honestly don't know where to place the last 8 EVs so they went to speed to outspeed uninvested base 70s. Those EVs are working perfectly for me and I haven't found any that is more optimal, although let me know if you do. Alternatively, if you have a dedicated hazard removal already, you can change Defog to Leaf Blade or Swords Dance, in which case change U-turn to Baton Pass.
The idea is to be like the bulky Scizor-Mega, although you do not have the Steel typing. Actually, the two can be run on the same team and give a dynamic flow to your sweepers. You use Decidueye to scout with repetitive U-turn, and surprise one opponent with a Spirit Shackle then switch to counter, giving you (most of the time) a free setup or kill. For teammates, you obviously need a SR setter because the calcs are based around that. You also need someone to check Marowak-Alola, although you outspeed most famous builds (important if you want to use Baton Pass beforehand).
Oh, and also,
4 SpA Expert Belt Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 200+ SpD Decidueye: 154-182 (42.8 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pheromosa Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Decidueye: 115-136 (32 - 37.8%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pheromosa U-turn vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Decidueye: 151-178 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
52 Atk Decidueye Spirit Shackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 205-243 (72.4 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
52 Atk Decidueye Spirit Shackle vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Pheromosa: 229-270 (80.9 - 95.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
She needs to hit you thrice. Fair enough?
Decidueye @ Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 248 HP / 52 Atk / 200 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Spirit Shackle
- U-turn / Baton Pass
- Roost
- Defog / Leaf Blade / Swords Dance
This is my set so far on Decidueye. I made it into a bulky pivot akin to Scizor-Mega that can also trap if needed. Of course, this kind of moveset has been talked about for so much already, so instead, I would try to justify the EV spread.
I gave it enough defense EVs to avoid a 2HKO from Starmie's Ice Beam, which this set aims to counter hard because you can switch in to a Rapid Spin and hopefully kill them.
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 200+ SpD Decidueye: 161-190 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
52 Atk Decidueye Spirit Shackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 218-260 (84.1 - 100.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Starmie dies after taking the Life Orb recoil.
The Attack EVs also help you one shot Tapu Lele through Stealth Rock. Their HP Fire would not do anything to you, don't worry.
52 Atk Decidueye Spirit Shackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 246-290 (87.5 - 103.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
These are the calcs that I have for now, but I shall research more on it. I honestly don't know where to place the last 8 EVs so they went to speed to outspeed uninvested base 70s. Those EVs are working perfectly for me and I haven't found any that is more optimal, although let me know if you do. Alternatively, if you have a dedicated hazard removal already, you can change Defog to Leaf Blade or Swords Dance, in which case change U-turn to Baton Pass.
The idea is to be like the bulky Scizor-Mega, although you do not have the Steel typing. Actually, the two can be run on the same team and give a dynamic flow to your sweepers. You use Decidueye to scout with repetitive U-turn, and surprise one opponent with a Spirit Shackle then switch to counter, giving you (most of the time) a free setup or kill. For teammates, you obviously need a SR setter because the calcs are based around that. You also need someone to check Marowak-Alola, although you outspeed most famous builds (important if you want to use Baton Pass beforehand).
Oh, and also,
4 SpA Expert Belt Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 200+ SpD Decidueye: 154-182 (42.8 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pheromosa Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Decidueye: 115-136 (32 - 37.8%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pheromosa U-turn vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Decidueye: 151-178 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
52 Atk Decidueye Spirit Shackle vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 205-243 (72.4 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
52 Atk Decidueye Spirit Shackle vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Pheromosa: 229-270 (80.9 - 95.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
She needs to hit you thrice. Fair enough?
In OU? Yeah its bad...but it can probably do some stuff in lower tiers
It does have a niche. It can spinblock while walling or outspeeding nearly every spinner bar Alolan Sandslash (and maybe Mega Blastoise) and grab momentum (Dhelmise straight up deals damage). Long Reach (eventually) will mean you cannot punish uturns with passive damage from Rough Skin/Rocky Helmet.
That's a pretty nice EV spread. Once again, though, what are the 8 Speed EVs for? Outspeeding A-Wak? If not, maybe they could go in Attack to try and get a better hit on Lele? Otherwise the calcs and the spread itself seems very solid, nice job.
Sometimes something does have a niche, but that niche isn't useful.
I still think the SDef SD passer is an okay set that nothing else really does, but it doesn't have the stats to perform in OU. Could be fun in RU or UU.
Even in UU it probably isn't a staple as a multitude of mons outclass it defensively and/or offensively...I'm very interested to see statistics from UU Alpha, to see where Decidueye ,and other mons stand even if it is a little wonky with some of mons allowed atm
The 8 Speed EVs help you outspeed uninvested base 70, but I rechecked calculations and just realized that you don't really need to outspeed any of them because neither side can OHKO the other anyway (although Metagross can hurt). I guess the EVs could go to attack, but if you are running the SD/BP version, you might want the extra 8 EVs to guarantee the attack pass to a check. I stick with the 8 EVs on speed for now until I find a calculation that would change a chance to a guarantee if I transfer the 8 EVs to attack.
I think people are underestimating the trapping ability of Spirit Shackle. The ability to trap a Pokemon and then switch to a reliable counter is huge. It helps against stall Pokemon, it gives you free setups (especially true with the Baton Pass version), and some of the time, it gives you a free kill. This would give it a useful niche in OU and possibly make it a staple in UU. Also, it functions like a Scizor-Mega. The lower tiers would get the utility provided by Scizor-Mega, which is pretty good. The only thing holding it back from staying in OU is the bad stat distribution, but in UU it can be a strong contender.
This is very well thought out. I've been contemplating how to run a Decidueye. I think I've gotta give this one a shot! Very well done.
Edited the OP some to reflect it's current state in the metagame better. I attempted to make its versatility and potential less of a selling point...much of it was written very early into the metagame, so I thought it would make a bigger mark.
I still don't think it's a shitmon like top players seems to have a consensus on atm. It's not really outclassed on Defog or Pass. It is the best Grass or Ghost type source of hazard removal (Tsareena's not bad at it either) and thanks to Spirit Shackle and a better typing, it's not outclassed by Celebi at all on Pass. And spinblocks almost every spin user well and checks relevant mons which I won't list again. No analysis and blacklisted on the VR be damned, it's a decent mon. I misjudged its impact on the metagame and overhyped it a little, but it serves at least two purposes.
I still don't think it's a shitmon like top players seems to have a consensus on atm. It's not really outclassed on Defog or Pass. It is the best Grass or Ghost type source of hazard removal (Tsareena's not bad at it either) and thanks to Spirit Shackle and a better typing, it's not outclassed by Celebi at all on Pass. And spinblocks almost every spin user well and checks relevant mons which I won't list again. No analysis and blacklisted on the VR be damned, it's a decent mon. I misjudged its impact on the metagame and overhyped it a little, but it serves at least two purposes.
To be fair, Decidueye checks Tapu Lele well (Shadow Ball and HP Fire would barely dent with enough investment, and Spirit Shackle can OHKO back). Pheromosa can't kill you easily (rip HJK), and requires at least three hits to KO Decidueye from full health even with Expert Belt Ice Beam. As for Genesect, yes this would be difficult, but you can always Shackle then U-turn (or hard switch cuz you are outsped) to a Fire type I guess.
One of the best things about Decidueye is being a Defogger that isn't weak to Stealth Rock. Correct me if I am wrong or if I missed someone, but the only relevant Pokemon that do this too is Scizor-Mega, Latias, and Gligar/Gliscor, the latter of which would not even usually run Defog in favor of other stuff like Stealth Rock or Knock Off. Another good thing is its ability to sponge and then act as a slow pivot, something like a Scizor-Mega or Rotom-W do before. As we can see here, Decidueye is really only strictly inferior to Scizor-Mega in terms of utility. Scizor-Mega has a better typing with one (4x) weakness and one immunity, has more speed, has more natural bulk, and has a priority in Bullet Punch (debatable whether priority or trapping is better, depends on team I guess). Utility is the name of Decidueye's game, and in my limited experience with the bird, it has been doing great at the job. If it would drop down from OU, having something as versatile as this is insane for the lower tiers. Honestly though, it has the capability to stay, and its unused stats in SpA is the only thing holding it down (and lack of Long Reach). At first, I wasn't really fond of this Pokemon
(If there is one thing that they should have given it, it would be Leech Seed. This would make it a fantastic stallbreaker with a SubSeed, Shackle, and probably Roost or U-turn. If only most stall Pokemon are not immune to Toxic, then it would be fantastic at the job already. But enough theory, it's already good now as it is.)
The full list of fully evolved Defoggers not weak to Stealth Rock is Mew, Scizor, Skarmory, Shiftry, Flygon, Latias, Latios, Empoleon, Skuntank, Lumineon, Gliscor (illegal w/ poison heal), Giratina, Arceus, Decidueye, Lurantis, Kartana, and Tapu Fini. Of these the ones relevant in OU are Mew, Skarmory, Scizor, Lati@s, Empoleon, Kartana, and Tapu Fini. Not all of these are great Defog users (lol @ kartana) but most of them do have reliable recovery and/or pivoting capabilities coupled with decent bulk.
It's a pretty mediocre to crappy check:
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 248 HP / 200+ SpD Decidueye in Psychic Terrain: 168-198 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Decidueye in Psychic Terrain: 249-294 (69.3 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(This doesn't even account for Specs which can easily 2HKO / OHKO).
4 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 200+ SpD Decidueye: 166-198 (46.2 - 55.1%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa U-turn vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Decidueye: 196-231 (54.5 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
And just because:
252 SpA Choice Specs Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 200+ SpD Decidueye: 230-272 (64 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
There are 3 sets for Phero (4 maybe with Quiver Dance). None carry Expert Belt. It is Life Orb, Scarf, or Specs otherwise.
Genesect is always faster, which means your combo will almost never happen unless Genesect switches into Decidueye and Genesect sets up Rock Polish or Shift Gear.
Readytolose covered it, but Decidueye is also prone to Spikes and Toxic Spikes which really sucks. Though the same in theory could be said about Fini, some like Skarmory are much better Defoggers.
As for Defog Gliscor, you'll never see it because it is illegal with Poison Heal.
I would consider Decidueye an average at best pivot that has a couple unique niches to it, but severely outclassed by better pivots such as the ones listed. Tangrowth and Amoonguss pull the Grass pivot better (Mega Venusaur to some extent as well). As for being a pivot it really fails at this too - consider that many of the pivots you mentioned have a stronger U-turn or access to a status move - neither which Decidueye have (okay, Toxic, but really?).
The only ever-small niche that this has over some pivots and other Pokemon is Spirit Shackle. While not necessarily a bad move it will likely trap something that is faster and glare at Decidueye, thus forcing it out.
For what it's also worth I believe it is not even doing hot in UU Beta atm.
Leech Seed and Will-O-Wisp would have helped Decidueye a lot because it could help carve its niches. Without these moves and a rather mediocre stat spread Decidueye really has little to no value in the OU metagame.
Also - no one should be using Starmie either. Thing is flat out outclassed by Greninja outside of Rapid Spin, which it is pretty meh at doing at the moment.
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I don't really mind if it isn't all that hot. I'm just so pissed at the wasted potential. Just one change would make this mon solid. Give it WoW, Leech Seed, make some minor stat changes, hell even 10 points more in speed would do wonders. Take 30 offa SP.atk and put them literally anywhere else. Or at least give it more coverage in said stat. That would do so much to help show how powerful Spirit Shackle is.
Even its ability does it no favors. A more offensive mon would appreciate it more.
I'm a sucker for design. I use Vileplume in OU, clearly a big win/loss ratio isn't the most important to me. I'm just upset at how much it brings to the table, only for it not to matter. He brings everything but the beer to a Superbowl party.
Even its ability does it no favors. A more offensive mon would appreciate it more.
I'm a sucker for design. I use Vileplume in OU, clearly a big win/loss ratio isn't the most important to me. I'm just upset at how much it brings to the table, only for it not to matter. He brings everything but the beer to a Superbowl party.
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