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Who would be mad enough and run a max attack Clod just to deal with another Clod evolution?
...Oh. Riiiight.
I'm considering to go for defense Investment on Clodfish, because it does take surprisingly high damage from physical hard hitters without boosts from Curse. And that would also help against attack invested EQ Clodsparces. However, this would definitely make it harder to wear down the classic Body Press Clodsparce. Nothing that teammates can't fix (simply removing Leftovers with Knock Off can already help); I'm going to keep it in mind.
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I agree with the ranking changes as a whole. But there is just one thing I'd like to bring up:
Now I see that there have been some points about its viability spot as an evolution, but here I am wondering "why try evolving something into Basculegion, when you can just use the actual Basculegion?" If we're technical, it would be like using the banned Basculin-White as a base, and I struggle to find a base that could be used over that, especially if you want to make use of Swift Swim. I suppose there are two advantages of using Basculegion as an evolution: You have a broader movepool to choose from, and the opponent won't be immediately alarmed by the Last Respects nuke on Team Preview.
Still, I'm not sure if that is worth using...whatever base you would use for this. Stantler or QwilfishH maybe?
For now, I'm not going to suggest a ranking change for Basculegion (whether as an evolution or a non-CE mon), but I might be inclined to build a team involving it.
C -> D (Did I or PQRDG put this in C? It's got okay stats to where it could be usable, but like... it's not a C tier, especially since I've never heard of any good Kilowattrel evos.)
Okay yeah that one was me. D is probably the right place for it. Kilowattrel does seem like a solid evolution on paper, see below to see one of my first posts in this thread where I mentioned the potential of Kilo's viability.
+Wind Power / +Volt Absorb / +Competitive
+30 HP / +30 Atk / +25 Def / +50 SpA / +20 SpD / +55 Spe
Competitive is a great ability in a metagame full of Gyarados evolutions using Intimidate. Kilowattrel is by far the best Second-stage evolution with the ability (the other two being Jigglypuff and Gothorita, RIP Milotic). For a special sweeper, these are really solid stats in terms of both Special Attack and Speed. It may not be as strong as Armarouge, or as fast as Gholdengo, but it definitely has other tools that make it useful, including a fast U-Turn, recovery in Roost, and strong special moves like Thunder and Hurricane. While maybe not as easy to throw onto a team as some of the other evolutions in the above post, this definitely isn't one to overlook.
Honestly yeah C may have been too high for it, but it still has a lot of the tools that could be very effective on the right team. Volt Absorb is really great against Regieleki or Miraidon and Competitive is a unique tool that could be threatening against the Webs teams that have popped up in usage. But yeah probably not as high of a ranking as I was giving it credit for.
Other than that, no comments on any of these ranking changes. All of these arguments seem to be completely valid and I am glad to see the community have these discussions.
Edit: actually one argument, Slowbro. I believe that the reason Slowbro was a lower tier than the Slowking twins was the lack of Teleport/Chilly Reception. This is a big part of their kit, being able to pivot out and get the regen from that. For that reason I think Slowking and Glowking should be tiered higher than Slowbro.
(Also any other rankings that you blame on me I swear are not my fault lol)
I believe that the reason Slowbro was a lower tier than the Slowking twins was the lack of Teleport/Chilly Reception. This is a big part of their kit, being able to pivot out and get the regen from that. For that reason I think Slowking and Glowking should be tiered higher than Slowbro.
I agree, however I think even Slowbro has its perks compared to the nearly-never-use-this Slowbro-Galar, like making a bulky support mon that has a switching move like U-Turn. But then again, anything who's name isn't Slowpoke probably won't do well. You could make an argument to put Slowbro below the Kings and Slowbro-G below Slowbro-K.
Slowking should go in C personally, while Slowking-G and Slowbro go in D, and Slowbro-G goes in E.
Seriously? I put Lilligant-H in B? Guess its just good ol' IMakeNoSense being nonsensical again. I promise I wasn't blaming you but I also didn't know what you exactly changed lol
Hello everyone. Time for me to make a post as a council member instead of just as a player. As some of you may know, we have been working on a Tiering Survey for some time, but we wanted to let the post-Home, post-Basculin meta develop a bit before we asked any questions. As the above discussions of Viability Rankings have shown to us, the playerbase is strong and has lots of opinions to share. As such...
The Cross Evolution Tiering Survey is now Live!
You can all check it out at this link here: Wait was this link edited? The survey will be up for at least a couple weeks, but we will make an announcement sometime in August as a reminder when we get to the last 48-72 hours. We trust that you will all answer this honestly and sincerely, and we will take everything gathered from this survey into consideration for the meta going forward. Thank you all for your continuous support and have fun Cross-Evolving.
I think Miraidon is perfectly fine rn. Not only is groundceus a really solid counter, a lot of clod evos beat it naturally, sandy-sylv completely hard counters it (and forces a switch giving you a free wish/what have you). Not even going to mention that Caly-shadow literally outperforms it in essentially every standard right now.
I think Ursaring could get re-tested. In pre-home, there weren't a ton of great answers, but between Persian-A evos, Ceruledge as a whole on the rise, and E-killer Arceus, it doesn't get a whole ton of value unless you go wack evos.
I definitely think Clodsire as an evo should get tested. It walls so much of the meta freely and has a massive amount of move versatility that allows it to essentially play a different role on every team (toxic stall, spikes setter, hell I've seen Mudbray/Clod sets specifically built to counter other clodsire builds.) Something with this much ubiquitousness should definitely get at least a looked at by council.
Finally, post-Home shouldn't have both giraffe and ice scales banned. Neither one was particularly problematic outside of the combination of each other, and one or the other should be re-tested (I'd prefer giraffe get tested simply cause Eeveelution Giraffe was awesome, but im fine with either)
I'll have to disagree about Miraidon. This is a mon that, while not reaching Kyogre-Water-Spout levels of damage output, is still a scary threat. And unlike Kyogre, it's also decently fast. Just give it Specs and those supposed counters go up in smoke:
Groundceus has a chance to be 2HKOed by Draco Meteor, meaning it can't reliably switch into Miraidon, and max SpD Clodsparce (let's forget any other Clods with less special bulk than that) just barely avoids the 2HKO by either Specs Draco or Electro Drift, and that's with Leftovers and no SR up.
It's not like spamming Specs Draco is like a risk either, since Fairies barely exist. And using Sandygast-Sylveon is not the answer here. Yes, it deals with Miraidon, but then what? It looks mediocre (maybe I'm wrong here), and being forced to run a mediocre mon just to actually counter something does not feel healthy. At least Caly-S gets dealt with by Clodsparce/Clodfish (though Tera Blast Fighting messes up the former), which are very, very strong mons in their own right and thus used regardless of Caly-S' presence.
Speaking of Clod: Yeah, I feel it's a difficult case. Clod crevos are amazing at stopping set-up sweepers, but the problem lies in them being set-up sweepers themselves. With how massively bulky Clodsparce is, even without boosts, there is only a small selection of mons that Clod can't set up against, and those that rely on Fighting moves to hit Clodsparce hard get denied by Tera Poison.
The other options for counterplay here (Taunt, Trick, Toxic) aren't failsafe either. Toxic can be avoided with Tera Poison, and if you don't have a Taunt/Trick mon out already, then you have to switch, giving Clod the opportunity to either start setting up, or Toxic the switch-in.
I suppose a combination of other passive damage (Leech Seed, Salt Cure) and Knock Off can also help slow it down, but I'm not sure if that's enough options for dealing with Clod.
A Tera ban would ease the counterplay against Clodsparce somewhat, since it could now be affected by Toxic and unable to avoid a super effective Fighting hit, but it also makes Tinksharp afraid of its Earthquakes and Body Presses...and then there's of course the Poison-type Clod: Clodfish, which still doesn't care about Toxic. That one isn't as bulky as Clodsparce and thus easier to pressure before it sets up, but give it a defense boost or two and it's still hellishly difficult to punch through, as I've seen it myself (I was using the Adamant max attack Clodfish, mind you).
I would not be opposed to Clod going, but at the same time I'm afraid of what will happen to set-up with no Clod in the way. I guess there's still Quagsire, and Skeledirge may get used then...
Since it's getting late here, I should wrap things up:
I don't really have an opinion about Ursaring right now, but freeing it would mean Ursaring-Dragonite wreaking havoc (180 base Attack Espeed says hello). Actually, maybe keep it locked up.
I feel like Ice Scales should stay banned, especially if Clodsire were to go. Ice Scales turns opposing special attackers into opportunities for Quiver Dance sweeps, with or without Girafarig.
Not sure about the giraffe itself, but it can probably still pull off silly Stored Power shenanigans. Although on the other hand, it would have to deal with Bisharp and now QwilfishH as well.
I'll have to disagree about Miraidon. This is a mon that, while not reaching Kyogre-Water-Spout levels of damage output, is still a scary threat. And unlike Kyogre, it's also decently fast. Just give it Specs and those supposed counters go up in smoke:
Groundceus has a chance to be 2HKOed by Draco Meteor, meaning it can't reliably switch into Miraidon, and max SpD Clodsparce (let's forget any other Clods with less special bulk than that) just barely avoids the 2HKO by either Specs Draco or Electro Drift, and that's with Leftovers and no SR up.
It's not like spamming Specs Draco is like a risk either, since Fairies barely exist. And using Sandygast-Sylveon is not the answer here. Yes, it deals with Miraidon, but then what? It looks mediocre (maybe I'm wrong here), and being forced to run a mediocre mon just to actually counter something does not feel healthy. At least Caly-S gets dealt with by Clodsparce/Clodfish (though Tera Blast Fighting messes up the former), which are very, very strong mons in their own right and thus used regardless of Caly-S' presence.
Speaking of Clod: Yeah, I feel it's a difficult case. Clod crevos are amazing at stopping set-up sweepers, but the problem lies in them being set-up sweepers themselves. With how massively bulky Clodsparce is, even without boosts, there is only a small selection of mons that Clod can't set up against, and those that rely on Fighting moves to hit Clodsparce hard get denied by Tera Poison.
The other options for counterplay here (Taunt, Trick, Toxic) aren't failsafe either. Toxic can be avoided with Tera Poison, and if you don't have a Taunt/Trick mon out already, then you have to switch, giving Clod the opportunity to either start setting up, or Toxic the switch-in.
I suppose a combination of other passive damage (Leech Seed, Salt Cure) and Knock Off can also help slow it down, but I'm not sure if that's enough options for dealing with Clod.
A Tera ban would ease the counterplay against Clodsparce somewhat, since it could now be affected by Toxic and unable to avoid a super effective Fighting hit, but it also makes Tinksharp afraid of its Earthquakes and Body Presses...and then there's of course the Poison-type Clod: Clodfish, which still doesn't care about Toxic. That one isn't as bulky as Clodsparce and thus easier to pressure before it sets up, but give it a defense boost or two and it's still hellishly difficult to punch through, as I've seen it myself (I was using the Adamant max attack Clodfish, mind you).
I would not be opposed to Clod going, but at the same time I'm afraid of what will happen to set-up with no Clod in the way. I guess there's still Quagsire, and Skeledirge may get used then...
Since it's getting late here, I should wrap things up:
I don't really have an opinion about Ursaring right now, but freeing it would mean Ursaring-Dragonite wreaking havoc (180 base Attack Espeed says hello). Actually, maybe keep it locked up.
I feel like Ice Scales should stay banned, especially if Clodsire were to go. Ice Scales turns opposing special attackers into opportunities for Quiver Dance sweeps, with or without Girafarig.
Not sure about the giraffe itself, but it can probably still pull off silly Stored Power shenanigans. Although on the other hand, it would have to deal with Bisharp and now QwilfishH as well.
While I come from playing while it was still OM of the month and the new mons weren’t out yet, I pretty much thought of clodsparce as must pick for 99% of teams. The biggest problem I saw was simply their access to coil (and to a bit less of an extent curse). Their bull was so good that they could just switch into 95% of mons, then start clicking coil until max boosted. The combo of unaware, coil boosting defense, and their massive special bulk meant that even HO teams would benefit from clodsparce due to its coil boosted attack. The main way I saw the opponent beat my clodsparce was paralyzing it then just hoping it got full paralyzed as they tried to kill it. Whether or not I won that match simply because I switched in a clodsparce, at almost any time in the match, came down to luck. If I was lucky and they didn’t get enough crits or full paras I won, if I wasn’t then I lost a single mon. And each interaction of clodsparce boosting up and healing between some boost took like 20 turns. This lead to most of matched being me just watching the backside of a clodsparce. The truest counter to clodsparce though, is another clodsparce. Which leads to PP wars, the greatest thing we all wanted to do.
I will restate that this is what I believed of clodsparce before the home mons got released, but it seems like at least some of this still applies to the post-home metagame.
Clod is a difficult mon to counter, and people are complaining about this, but I believe Clodsire is keeping several mons in check that would be hard to deal with otherwise. So here are some good answers to the various Clodsire crevo's. (this post does not take tera into consideration)
Clodsparce existence credited to yours truly.
This is the most common Clodsire, if you see a dunsparce it's either running a clodsparce set or a Persian-A set.
I'm labeling this a check because it can have some trouble countering it, you have to play correctly and after too much set up it can be hard to beat the clods
VS. Stockpile Clod +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Bisharp Gigaton Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dunsparce: 647-762 (116.7 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Def Dunsparce Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 244-288 (65.2 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
so tinksharp can 1v1 stockpile clod, if they both come in and think SDs and then clod Bpresses, then it dies to gigaton. If clod stockpiles on tinks SD then giga doesnt kill
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Bisharp Gigaton Hammer vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Dunsparce: 430-508 (77.6 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Def Dunsparce Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 364-432 (97.3 - 115.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
But Bpress might end up KOing you. there's prolly a way for think to win the 1v1, there prolly also a way for clod to win the 1v1, I don't feel like calcing the perfect plays, just don't use tinksharp for max defense clod.
252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Bisharp Gigaton Hammer vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Dunsparce: 216-255 (38.9 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Def Dunsparce Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 364-432 (97.3 - 115.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Def Dunsparce Body Press vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 244-288 (65.2 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
so clod wins if Tink comes in on a stockpile or a bpress, meaning tinksharp is not a counter to stockpile clod.
VS. Coil Clodsparce
252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Bisharp Gigaton Hammer vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dunsparce: 461-543 (83.2 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Dunsparce: 281-331 (50.7 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Dunsparce Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 106-126 (28.3 - 33.6%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO
so now we see where the tinksharp came from, this deals with coil clodsparce easily, now if you switch in on a coil you sd then gigaton, as seen in these calcs
+1 0 Atk Dunsparce Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 158-188 (42.2 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Bisharp Gigaton Hammer vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Dunsparce: 616-725 (111.1 - 130.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
or if they coil again instead of EQing, you can gigaton then knock in order to KO it
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Bisharp Gigaton Hammer vs. +2 252 HP / 4 Def Dunsparce: 461-543 (83.2 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 4 Def Dunsparce: 281-331 (50.7 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
while EQ isn't OHKOing you so they can't kill you
+2 0 Atk Dunsparce Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 212-250 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
if they coil a third time it won't matter because knock is still doing enough.
So after reading all that, Tinksharp only counters Coil Clod, while stockpile clod deals can deal with it.
Now let's move on to a move that forces Clodsparce out, Taunt. If you're a mon that can take hits from clodsparce and have taunt, then you force it out. common users that would work are Gyarados crevo's, as gyara gets taunt and passes flying, Ceruledge also gives taunt, plus ghost to deal with Bpress, Primeape and Qwilfish-h both learn it as bases so they can force it out depending on the evo. Encore can also force it out if it uses a recovery move or a set-up move
Toxic puts it on a timer.
Choice Trick cripples to quite well.
Now the mon counters, All lilligant-h evo's can deal with it pretty easily, Fighting STAB close combat hits like a truck, one example is Stantler-Lilligant-H
252 Atk Life Orb Stantler Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Dunsparce: 328-385 (59.2 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stantler Close Combat vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Dunsparce: 244-291 (44 - 52.5%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Def Dunsparce Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stantler: 242-286 (71.8 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So this thing can come in on a stockpile/coil and easily 2HKO clod
If it comes in on a bpress it has trouble tho
252+ Def Dunsparce Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stantler: 162-192 (48 - 56.9%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Stantler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dunsparce: 486-577 (87.7 - 104.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
you have a chance to live the second Bpress and a change to OHKO the clod, but if you don't like that you can run hustle, which means you OHKO it every time (you don't miss)
252 Atk Life Orb Hustle Stantler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dunsparce: 728-860 (131.4 - 155.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
still a risk tho
Another Lilligant crevo that deals with it is Mudbray-lilligant, I'm also gonna calc it with tera, because I should do at least one counter that deals with tera clod
Mudbray's damage 252 Atk Life Orb Mudbray Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dunsparce: 502-593 (90.6 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mudbray Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Dunsparce: 335-398 (60.4 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mudbray Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Poison Dunsparce: 125-148 (22.5 - 26.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mudbray Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Poison Dunsparce: 416-494 (75 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mudbray Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Poison Dunsparce: 281-330 (50.7 - 59.5%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dunsparce's damage 252+ Def Dunsparce Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mudbray: 75-89 (22.6 - 26.8%) -- 36.3% chance to 4HKO
+1 252+ Def Dunsparce Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mudbray: 113-133 (34.1 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
it might have some trouble with max defense tera clod, but some sets don't run max defense so it would be able to deal with a max SpD tera clod, otherwise it deals with clodsparce pretty handily.
Primeape, Samurott-Hisui can hit Clodsparce pretty darn hard, sacred sword ignores stat changes so you can come in even after its set up
252 Atk Life Orb Qwilfish-Hisui Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Dunsparce: 354-421 (63.8 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Qwilfish-Hisui Close Combat vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Dunsparce: 268-320 (48.3 - 57.7%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Def Dunsparce Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Qwilfish-Hisui: 206-244 (76 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
so qwilloom can come in on a stockpile and easily deal out enough damage to get rid of clod.
If it comes in on a bpress it has more troubles
252+ Def Dunsparce Body Press vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Qwilfish-Hisui: 138-164 (50.9 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Qwilfish-Hisui Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dunsparce: 533-632 (96.2 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
there's only a 81.3 chance of successfully dealing the damage to counter clodsparce if you come in on a Bpress. though you can run Adamant nature and fix that.
252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish-Hisui Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dunsparce: 585-689 (105.5 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
just your average nuke
Running adamant guarantees your ability to counter clod, but clod usually stockpiles first so just come in on that.
there's also a very interesting mon that deals with clod, tera or no.
Orthworm @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Earth Eater
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shed Tail
- Iron Defense/Coil
- Body Press/ Iron Head
- Stealth Rock
Orthworm has very interesting play vs clodsparce. it doesn't take a lot from Bpress,
252+ Def Dunsparce Body Press vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Orthworm: 80-96 (23.3 - 27.9%) -- 82.5% chance to 4HKO
+1 252+ Def Dunsparce Body Press vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Orthworm: 120-142 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
so what you want to do is come in on clod, the clod will either stockpile, coil or bpress, meaning you know which set it is, then you can set up rocks if you can live another hit at more that 50%, or just shed tail into a ghost type if its a bpress clod, if its a coil clod just use it as set up fodder for eq. this might be one of the best ways to take advantage of clodsparce
Moving on to our next clodsire contestant..
Clodfish existence credited to Gimlaf
This fish came into being as a counter to the common Clodsparce, but it's a treat as well.
Clodsire (Qwilfish-Hisui) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Barb Barrage
- Earthquake
- Curse
- Recover
This is the main set, someone out there is prolly running a fish with defense, but I haven't seen or tested out a defensive clodfish, so im using this.
Zorua-h, Toxtricity with specs forces does serious damage to qwilfish-h. It also can use trick to cripple it
Toxtricity (Zorua-Hisui) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Punk Rock
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Shadow Ball
- Trick
- Overdrive
252 SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Zorua-Hisui Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Qwilfish-Hisui: 385-454 (79.5 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Zorua-Hisui Boomburst vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Qwilfish-Hisui: 256-303 (52.8 - 62.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Zorua-Hisui Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Qwilfish-Hisui: 289-342 (59.7 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Punk Rock Zorua-Hisui Boomburst vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Qwilfish-Hisui: 193-228 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Qwilfish-Hisui Barb Barrage (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zorua-Hisui: 66-78 (23.4 - 27.7%) -- 85% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Qwilfish-Hisui Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zorua-Hisui: 147-174 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Qwilfish-Hisui Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zorua-Hisui: 221-261 (78.6 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
this thing hits super hard, unless qwilfish is running a stockpile max SpD set at +1 its a guaranteed 2HKO. Just be careful not to switch in on an EQ, switching into a barb barrage or curse is fine tho.
Kyogre can also hit this thing really hard
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Qwilfish-Hisui in Rain: 535-631 (110.5 - 130.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Qwilfish-Hisui in Rain: 358-423 (73.9 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Qwilfish-Hisui in Rain: 405-477 (83.6 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Qwilfish-Hisui in Rain: 271-319 (55.9 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Qwilfish-Hisui in Rain: 394-465 (81.4 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Qwilfish-Hisui Barb Barrage (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 115-136 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Qwilfish-Hisui Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 127-150 (37.2 - 43.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Qwilfish-Hisui Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyogre: 191-225 (56 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
OHKOing Gimlaf's set and 2HKOing other sets is pretty darn good, this kyogre uses max SpA and specs so it's usually used on webs, but kyogre can break through a lot of walls so it doesn't always need speed. though if you switch not an attack your not hitting full power and probably should sit with Opulse, which 2HKO's, which works fine unless you switch into a barb barrage that immediately poisons you, then you might be in trouble.
Primeape, Samurott-Hisui can again hit a Clod crevo for a lot of damage (same set)
252 Atk Choice Band Sharpness Primeape Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish-Hisui: 249-294 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sharpness Primeape Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Qwilfish-Hisui: 346-408 (71.4 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Qwilfish-Hisui Barb Barrage (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Primeape: 127-150 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Qwilfish-Hisui Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Primeape: 141-166 (46.8 - 55.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Qwilfish-Hisui Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Primeape: 210-248 (69.7 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
it might have trouble with a max defense clodfish but thats not super common so this should be good. vs max attack it's dangerous to switch into EQ or a barb barrage that poisons. while switching into curse is fine.
Mudbray-lilligant can also again hit clod really hard (same set)
Mudbray's damage 252 Atk Life Orb Mudbray Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Qwilfish-Hisui: 523-616 (108 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mudbray Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Qwilfish-Hisui: 351-413 (72.5 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mudbray Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish-Hisui: 374-445 (77.2 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mudbray Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish-Hisui: 250-296 (51.6 - 61.1%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Qwilfishh's damage 0 Atk Qwilfish-Hisui Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mudbray: 88-104 (26.5 - 31.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+1 0 Atk Qwilfish-Hisui Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mudbray: 131-155 (39.5 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Qwilfish-Hisui Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mudbray: 119-140 (35.9 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Qwilfish-Hisui Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mudbray: 177-209 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
so this deal with max defense sets and max attack sets, this is looking like a solid clod counter
Now we go back to our favorite 480 BST mon, Orthworm! (same set)
Immune to both Clodfishes moves, not much out else, it can EQ clodfish, set up on it, it can come in after clodfish has set up completely and force it out. what's better than that?
Lastly the same moves that cripple and hinder clodsparce can deal with this if you mon isn't weak to ground or poison, so ground gyara's can taunt and sit on clods freely as long as they don't switch in on a toxic and are faster. ChoiceTrick works well, though toxic doesnt work.
So a lot of things can counter this clod, more than can deal with clodsparce. and some mons can deal with both.
Lastly I'm going to talk about the less common..
Clodbray idk who started using this first
Clodsire (Mudbray) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Atk / 196 SpD
Careful Nature
- Toxic
- Earthquake
- Stockpile
- Recover
you can change the EV's based on what you want to check, im using attack EV's to help with the clodbray vs clodfish matchup.
Primeape-Hamurott again deals with it (as long as you don't switch in on an EQ, due to sacred sword ignoring stat changes
252 Atk Choice Band Sharpness Primeape Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mudbray: 277-327 (56 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
it gets takes similar damage from EQ but its ape is faster.
Kyogre beats it
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mudbray in Rain: 810-954 (163.9 - 193.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mudbray in Rain: 594-702 (120.2 - 142.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Frogadier Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mudbray: 354-416 (71.6 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Guess who else beats it! Orthworm!!!!
immune to Earthquake, might take more from Bpress than it does from clod, but enough to shed tail into a mon that could normally use it for set-up fodder if it wasn't for toxic.
Toxic and choice trick will also invalidate it.
taunt on a flying type or ground resist mon deals with it well
Summery, special attacking water types and Primeape-Hamurott deal with it, so do several moves. this clod is worse in a lot of ways to the others, if you want to run water absorb you give up the ability to deal with set up sweepers, which is where clod is usually useful.
So after reviewing these counters, we have a few mons that are quite capable of dealing with clods
Mudbray,lilligant-h deals with the two most common clods, and clodbray is different enough that another team member can prolly deal with it. it also can hit many other mons, like the various grounddos, hits darks and steels hard, meaning bisharp isn't a huge threat to it.
Primeape-Hamurott hits all 3 and sacred sword allows it to hit through stat changes, but it's forced into band which makes it predictable.
Taunt and Toxic both render clod useless after using it, one putting it on a timer and another gets rid of recovery + set-up.
Choice trick is works against them, but should not be your only counter.
Orthworm is the GOAT and counters all clods plus puts a mon behind a sub and leaves clod screaming.
there definitely some counters I didn't explore, but this post is already long and ugly so maybe someone else will come up with some counters. If one of these counters doesnt work, and the reason happens to be Tera, then the problem lies with Tera.
Let me know which calcs are wrong, I know I messed up some
Credit and many thanks to Gimlaf, PQRDG, and Dark Koopatrol for helping me with various parts of this post. It ended at an unimaginable length and their help was invaluable.
Hey this is going to be a stage 1 base when DLC drops. Same Atk and Spe as Stantler, same SpA as Magneton, and respectable 70/115/50 bulk. What could go wrong?
Stats: 100 HP / 70 Atk / 125 Def / 205 SpA / 100 SpD / 125 Spe
Abilities: Flame Body / Swarm
Type: Steel / Dragon
Pretty self-explanatory, uses QD and Morning Sun to set up and then sweeps teams with Draco and Fiery Dance. Due to its high SpA, it doesnt really need SpA investment unless its worried about Clods. It could run more SpA if it's worried about them, but I think it loses to them due to Stockpile. Could help against no SpD variants tho.
Sets SR, attacks, can phase. I personally wouldn't use this over Hippodos since it lacks recovery, but this could be a good option if you want something to be immune to Toxic or something. Crunch is just a generic attack, Thunder Wave is to spread Paralysis, and Taunt is for Clodsparce. Can also run Def investment instead of SpD. Mixed is probably the best option TBH but I'm not sure what the EVs for that would be.
Just a generic Clodsparce set but on Duraludon. Steel is good since it makes you immune to Toxic, but IMO Clodfish is a bit better since it isn't weak to CC. You could also make this set specially defensive. It quite honestly does anything regular Clodsparce does.
Stats: 105 HP / 170 Atk / 155 Def / 130 SpA / 110 SpD / 135 Spe
Abilities: Flash Fire / Weak Armor
Type: Steel / Ghost
Duraludon @ Life Orb
Ability: Flash Fire
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Earthquake / Shadow Sneak / Night Slash
- Close Combat
- Bitter Blade
- Swords Dance
Generic Ceruledge set but much bulkier and Steel/Ghost. The typing also happens to hard counter Body Press Clodsparces.
Pokepaste of sets:
Also, shout-out to DosDogs for helping me a lot with the first two sets.
Hello everyone. Time for me to make a post as a council member instead of just as a player. As some of you may know, we have been working on a Tiering Survey for some time, but we wanted to let the post-Home, post-Basculin meta develop a bit before we asked any questions. As the above discussions of Viability Rankings have shown to us, the playerbase is strong and has lots of opinions to share. As such...
The Cross Evolution Tiering Survey is now Live!
You can all check it out at this link here: Wait was this link edited? The survey will be up for at least a couple weeks, but we will make an announcement sometime in August as a reminder when we get to the last 48-72 hours. We trust that you will all answer this honestly and sincerely, and we will take everything gathered from this survey into consideration for the meta going forward. Thank you all for your continuous support and have fun Cross-Evolving.
Meant to announce this sooner, but this will be the ~48 hour warning for the tiering survey. If you have not gotten your votes in already, please do so now, as the poll will be closed by end of day Monday. Thanks to all of you that have given your opinions so far, and we will have more to tell about after the results are tallied and discussed by the council.
Edit: the survey is now CLOSED. Stay tuned over the next few days, the council will probably have a few things to say regarding the results.
A couple things. Only moms that have the ability to evolve can cross evolve, and only into the correct stage. For example, Weevil can't evolve it=nto tyranitar, and dunsparce can't cross evolve into garganacl. The other thing is that it's not a fusion, it's about what a mon gains when evolving. An example being how ceruledge gains the secondary ghost type when it evolves, so any stage one, like dunsparce, would gain the secondary typing ghost when it cross evolves into ceruledge, along with any stat changes ceruledge gains when evolving. To answer you first question, if ghasty (a ghost/poison type) cross evolves into ceruledge (who gives a secondary ghost type) the result would be a pure ghost type.
Guts Facade in itself is cool. But I think there are better alternatives, since this needs to tera to gain STAB on Facade, and Luxray's stat gains aren't that great.
When I think of Guts Facade in CE, I think of this:
Hariyama (Stantler) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch
- Bulk Up
Primeape is still an excellent base, however a Luxray evolution has to compete with other ones: Samurott-Hisui, Tsareena, Dragonite come to mind.
Yep, Sunflora gives massive SpA, and fairly good bulk as well. With the total lack of speed gain, putting that evolution on an already fast mon makes sense. The problem is, with Voltorb-Hisui, you'd have 130 SpA and 100 Speed, which by this meta's standards is still middling at best. It's probably fine on a sun team, but then there's the option of taking a slightly slower base with more SpA and use Chlorophyll to patch up said speed.
And if you're not using Sun, then there are alternatives that grant huge SpA stats: Frosmoth, Volcarona, Espeon and Armarouge each come with good speed increases, and in the case of the moths, even Quiver Dance. Even Braviary-Hisui might be worth looking into (though I personally didn't have success with it). It has the same Speed issue as Sunflora, but sets itself apart through Tinted Lens and Esper Wing.
Boomburst Stantler-Toxtricity? I approve!
I've been using a Trick Specs set myself (though its damage pales in comparison to Specs Kyogre), but Shift Gear is also a neat idea. It could perhaps use Throat Spray instead of Leftovers. Taunt is also a good idea, or else Clodsparce (I'll get to that mon later) just shrugs it off.
Sidenote: Bisharp and Ghost mons are fairly common, so you'd perhaps want a different coverage move: Earth Power or Shadow Ball (Or Snarl if you want to hit Normal/Ghost types, like Stantler-Ceruledge). Overdrive hits both Bisharp and Ghosts neutrally, but probably not for that much damage.
(Edit: Actually STAB Boomburst hits Steel types harder than Overdrive anyway, despite the resistance. It's probably still a good idea to have something to hit Ghost types super effectively though.)
Hmm, the stats are on the low end; it actually has lower BST than Bax itself. 107 base Speed and DDance could do something, but it's also on the frailer side. It's probably still the best option if you want STAB Glaive Rush (that or vanilla Bax, lol), but if that is worth it, I'm not sure. The lack of Fairy types in this meta does make Dragon STAB more appealing though.
Well, there's the omnipresent Clodsparce (Dunsparce-Clodsire): An Unaware wall that is famously tough to KO, even more so after it sets up Coils/Stockpiles, which also lets it act as a win condition.
Clodsparce (and other Clods) are mentioned in this post by DosDogs.
Dunsparce is generally a good base if you want something bulky. Another big evolution for it is Persian-Alola. Persiansparce fends off most physical attackers and can then go for Glare or Parting Shot...or threaten damage with Foul Play.
Bulky mons that can hit back immediately also exist, just look at Gyarados evos.
Hippodos is a common bulky mon which comes equipped with a base 187 Attack and STAB Earthquakes.
Gyarados (Hippopotas) @ Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Whirlwind
- Slack Off
Personally I'm a Toedsdos believer, though. It's more specialized towards special bulk, but it comes with various utility moves (Knock Off, Rapid Spin, even Spikes and Toxic), and it still has a strong Earthquake, though not as strong as Hippodos.
The upcoming DLC and possible bans (Survey results when...?) will likely change things up though. (Will Clodsire get banned or not? Only time will tell...)
(Edit: I wanted to put the feedback in its own spoiler, but it seems quotes in spoilers don't work nicely together, lol.)
Heya and welcome to the forums!
I'll drop my thoughts on those sets:
Guts Facade in itself is cool. But I think there are better alternatives, since this needs to tera to gain STAB on Facade, and Luxray's stat gains aren't that great.
When I think of Guts Facade in CE, I think of this:
Hariyama (Stantler) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Facade
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch
- Bulk Up
Primeape is still an excellent base, however a Luxray evolution has to compete with other ones: Samurott-Hisui, Tsareena, Dragonite come to mind.
Yep, Sunflora gives massive SpA, and fairly good bulk as well. With the total lack of speed gain, putting that evolution on an already fast mon makes sense. The problem is, with Voltorb-Hisui, you'd have 130 SpA and 100 Speed, which by this meta's standards is still middling at best. It's probably fine on a sun team, but then there's the option of taking a slightly slower base with more SpA and use Chlorophyll to patch up said speed.
And if you're not using Sun, then there are alternatives that grant huge SpA stats: Frosmoth, Volcarona, Espeon and Armarouge each come with good speed increases, and in the case of the moths, even Quiver Dance. Even Braviary-Hisui might be worth looking into (though I personally didn't have success with it). It has the same Speed issue as Sunflora, but sets itself apart through Tinted Lens and Esper Wing.
Boomburst Stantler-Toxtricity? I approve!
I've been using a Trick Specs set myself (though its damage pales in comparison to Specs Kyogre), but Shift Gear is also a neat idea. It could perhaps use Throat Spray instead of Leftovers. Taunt is also a good idea, or else Clodsparce (I'll get to that mon later) just shrugs it off.
Sidenote: Bisharp and Ghost mons are fairly common, so you'd perhaps want a different coverage move: Earth Power or Shadow Ball (Or Snarl if you want to hit Normal/Ghost types, like Stantler-Ceruledge). Overdrive hits both Bisharp and Ghosts neutrally, but probably not for that much damage.
(Edit: Actually STAB Boomburst hits Steel types harder than Overdrive anyway, despite the resistance. It's probably still a good idea to have something to hit Ghost types super effectively though.)
Hmm, the stats are on the low end; it actually has lower BST than Bax itself. 107 base Speed and DDance could do something, but it's also on the frailer side. It's probably still the best option if you want STAB Glaive Rush (that or vanilla Bax, lol), but if that is worth it, I'm not sure. The lack of Fairy types in this meta does make Dragon STAB more appealing though.
Well, there's the omnipresent Clodsparce (Dunsparce-Clodsire): An Unaware wall that is famously tough to KO, even more so after it sets up Coils/Stockpiles, which also lets it act as a win condition.
Clodsparce (and other Clods) are mentioned in this post by DosDogs.
Dunsparce is generally a good base if you want something bulky. Another big evolution for it is Persian-Alola. Persiansparce fends off most physical attackers and can then go for Glare or Parting Shot...or threaten damage with Foul Play.
Bulky mons that can hit back immediately also exist, just look at Gyarados evos.
Hippodos is a common bulky mon which comes equipped with a base 187 Attack and STAB Earthquakes.
Gyarados (Hippopotas) @ Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Whirlwind
- Slack Off
Personally I'm a Toedsdos believer, though. It's more specialized towards special bulk, but it comes with various utility moves (Knock Off, Rapid Spin, even Spikes and Toxic), and it still has a strong Earthquake, though not as strong as Hippodos.
The upcoming DLC and possible bans (Survey results when...?) will likely change things up though. (Will Clodsire get banned or not? Only time will tell...)
(Edit: I wanted to put the feedback in its own spoiler, but it seems quotes in spoilers don't work nicely together, lol.)
Skeledirge is a more efficient Ghost type evolution over Decidueye. It is bulkier on both sides, noticeably so on the physical side, and has a much more useful ability in Unaware that gives it a upper hand over other setup sweepers.
This pretty much does what the Specs version does but can consistently beat Misdreavus-Vaporeon and doesn't have to worry about being choice-locked into a move. Haven't seen this used so far but would recommend using it on webs. Made this set with DosDogs and this inspired me to make this post.
Stats: 130 HP / 65 Atk / 90 Def / 135 SpA / 75 SpD / 25 Spe
Abilities: Water Absorb / Hydration
Type: Water / Ground
Vaporeon (Sandygast) @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shore Up
- Stealth Rock
- Earth Power
- Calm Mind
This naturally checks Kyogre due to its typing, and can tank an Ice Beam. However, it isn't that good aside from checking Kyogre.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sandygast-Vaporeon: 155-183 (33.4 - 39.4%) -- 16.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Stats: 135 HP / 70 Atk / 70 Def / 150 SpA / 115 SpD / 95 Spe
Abilities: Water Absorb / Hydration
Type: Poison
Is immune to Water Spout and Origin Pulse and resists Ice, but is weak to Thunder and requires a Ground type if Kyogre uses it. Only works vs Choice Specs sets and can use Protect to scout, and even then can lose if it switches in on Thunder twice in a row. This set again runs into the issue that it's only run for Kyogre, though this set is much more useful than Sandygast for other mons.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Misdreavus-Vaporeon: 288-340 (60.7 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Misdreavus-Vaporeon: 59-69 (12.4 - 14.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 SpA Misdreavus-Vaporeon Surf vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre in Rain: 51-61 (14.9 - 17.8%) -- possible 6HKO
(vs example Grounds)
252+ SpA Splash Plate Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippodos in Rain: 494-584 (100.8 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Splash Plate Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toedsdos in Rain: 506-596 (116.5 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Stats: 175 HP / 100 Atk / 85 Def / 85 SpA / 140 SpD / 50 Spe
Abilities: Poison Point / Water Absorb / Unaware
Type: Normal
With Water Absorb, Clodsire crevos are pretty good checks for Kyogre. However, they perform a bit worse vs other mons due to not being able to run Unaware, which means that it can't stop setup sweepers and loses to other Clods.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clodsparce: 164-194 (29.6 - 35%) -- 16.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clodfish: 175-207 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (needs SpD invest)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clodfish: 132-156 (27.2 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Hliggoo-Tsareena is actually a viable mon that checks Kyogre depending on the sets, but this time it needs to give up its item to use Utility Umbrella.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sliggoo-Hisui: 114-134 (31.6 - 37.2%) -- 83.3% chance to 3HKO Loses vs CM if no phys move
0 Atk Hliggoo-Tsareena High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyogre: 149-176 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Hliggoo-Tsareena Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyogre: 274-324 (80.3 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Can also just U-turn out into a mon that can OHKO Kyogre (harder to do with webs up tho)
The checks provided were the best ones I personally found, and I haven't found any others by talking with other people. I personally feel like Kyogre should be banned because the mons that check it are suboptimal and are often run only for it. It is incredibly restricting on the teambuilder and basically requires a water immunity that'll be useless against other mons. Not even Chansey walls it unless it Teras into a type that resists Water.
Hliggoo-Tsareena is actually a viable mon that checks Kyogre depending on the sets, but this time it needs to give up its item to use Utility Umbrella.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sliggoo-Hisui: 114-134 (31.6 - 37.2%) -- 83.3% chance to 3HKO Loses vs CM if no phys move
Just don't get webbed and Kyogre will be outrun by anything remotely offensive. Hit it before it hits you, easy
(For legal reasons, that was a joke...mostly, anyway.)
But I agree, the pressure it exerts when brought in safely is extreme and regularly results in a KO, if not a sweep under webs. I wouldn't personally call it the most broken (that honor goes to Caly-S imo), but it's up there.
Is immune to Water Spout and Origin Pulse and resists Ice, but is weak to Thunder and requires a Ground type if Kyogre uses it. Only works vs Choice Specs sets and can use Protect to scout, and even then can lose if it switches in on Thunder twice in a row. This set again runs into the issue that it's only run for Kyogre, though this set is much more useful than Sandygast for other mons.
As someone who runs this set, I've gotta defend it though. Because I didn't start using this because of Kyogre (it was honestly just happenstance that it can check non-CM variants), it's a bulky Water type that combines Wishpassing and Wisp. To be fair though, if Wish (and Water Absorb) isn't needed, this set could be replaced by Arceus-Water.
Also I personally go with Tera Poison on this. Turns it neutral to Electric and Ice, and Toxic immunity is appreciated in certain other matchups.
With that out of the way, and the DLC almost here, time to show off some teams I've used since HOME dropped and which will probably get banned in some way or other!
This, I suppose, has been my primary team. And what can I say: Caly-S is dumb, Clodfish (QwilfishH-Clodsire) is dumb. The team usually either sweeps with Calyrex, or uses an opposing Clodsparce (which pretty much counters this set) as a set-up opportunity for Clodfish.
The rest is a fairly generic bulk package of mine: Toedscool-Gyarados spins and spams Knock Off/Leech Seed, Dunsparce-PersianA takes care of most physical attackers while setting rocks or pivoting, and Misdreavus-Vaporeon passes wishes, spreads burns, and can switch into Kyogres if needed (has to be careful with Thunders though). AV Krooksharp helps against opposing Bisharps while being additional insurance against several special attackers (such as QD Frosmoth and Vivillon evos).
Meanwhile, this was the team I've used before the Caly-S one, and was mostly an upgrade to my pre-HOME webs team:
Misdreavus-Masquerain is still the webs-setting lead that also spinblocks and disrupts, Toedscool-Gyarados is my usual special wall and spinner that hits Ghosts with Knock Off and/or Leech Seed, and Larvesta-Lokix still spams priority moves and U-Turn. However, Specs Kyogre became the new special nuke that virtually nothing wants to switch in on. Dunsparce-PersianA provides additional pivoting to bring in Kyogre safely and has Glare as a back-up plan in case I can't keep the webs up.
Rounding up this team is QwilfishH-Ceruledge as the new secondary spinblocker which is a threat in its own right and can pressure opposing Ceruledges with STAB Crunch.
But what if I didn't want to leave my old pre-HOME pal Stantricity behind? So I built a new team around it.
Misdreavus-Masquerain and Toedscool-Gyarados do the exact same thing as on the Kyogre webs team, as does Dunsparce-PersianA.
Instead of Kyogre, Stantler-Toxtricity is the special nuke, taken right from my pre-HOME team.
Stantricity of course invites Ghost-types to switch in and block Boomburst, so I had to add something that threatens those. A perfect opportunity to take QwilfishH-Hariyama with an SFLO set for a spin. It helps Stantricity even beyond that, as Liquidation (potentially with Tera Water) takes care of Ground types, which would prevent Stantricity from Volt Switching.
Kubfu-Ceruledge is just another Ceruledge set, except this one makes use of Kubfu's access to U-Turn instead of going for a SD set.
This team was made after I painfully learned about the existence of Mudbray-LilligantH, which I then wanted to use and have a counter against.
The bulky core of Dunsparce, Toedscool and Misdreavus is taken right from my Caly-S team.
Moving onto the interesting bits, Mudbray-LilligantH is a real threat. So much so that I tried to invent a counter for it: Pineclod (Or Clodco?)...which is ironic, considering Mudbrilligant is meant to smash open the common Clods. In all honesty though, I don't think that Pineclod is actually good. Maybe it's because I don't have Toxic on it (in an effort to not have this countered by the usual Clod counters), but it's most likely because its a pure Bug type with not really impressive stats.
Speaking of Clods and how to counter them: Taunt and Tera Poison on the Tsarsharp are just to have the best matchup possible against those. Not fully Clod-proof (as Earthquake is still a concern), but it helps.
This team was made after I was musing about Basculegion in this thread. And while building I was struck with the dumbest idea: "Can I use Basculegion itself and as an evolution for something else?" Turns out, yes, that is actually possible, as long as the actual Basculegion has a nickname. So I created this (most likely) meme of a team.
Dunsparce-Pelipper provides Rain, SR and U-Turn, Basculegion and QwilfishH-Basculegion are two different Swift Swim sets, Kyogre is here too.
For once, I'm not using Toedsdos as hazard removal, as I wanted something with more offense. Since Tsarsharp isn't getting much value out of Synthesis here, I gave it an Assault Vest.
Murkrow-LilligantH is there to smack Normal and Dark types which may get in the way of Last Respects, with Encore as anti-Clod tech.
However, I've barely used this team, because I wasn't really confident in it.
As someone who runs this set, I've gotta defend it though. Because I didn't start using this because of Kyogre (it was honestly just happenstance that it can check non-CM variants), it's a bulky Water type that combines Wishpassing and Wisp. To be fair though, if Wish (and Water Absorb) isn't needed, this set could be replaced by Arceus-Water.
Also I personally go with Tera Poison on this. Turns it neutral to Electric and Ice, and Toxic immunity is appreciated in certain other matchups.
My issue with this set isn't that it's bad. It's that Kyogre sort of forces you to use an otherwise niche mon just so that you don't have to sack a mon every time it comes in, and said mon may not be easy to fit on teams and sort of requires you to build around it. I also just forgot to set its Tera, that should be fixed now.
Anyway, I haven't really seen any Persian-Alola crevos that aren't Dunsparce, so here's sets I think have potential:
Persian-Alola (Sandygast) @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shore Up
- Parting Shot
- Earth Power
- Shadow Ball
There isn't usually a reason to use this over Hippopotas, but the Ghost typing may sometimes be useful, especially for spinblocking. It's definitely a niche pick though.
Stats: 95 HP / 80 Atk / 100 Def / 70 SpA / 90 SpD / 85 Spe
Abilities: Fur Coat / Technician / Rattled
Type: Dark / Flying
Persian-Alola (Gligar) @ Leftovers
Ability: Fur Coat
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- Earthquake
- Parting Shot
I'm actually unsure whether this set will be useable once DLC drops, since we don't yet know whether it'll keep Roost or Defog. If it loses Roost, this set becomes completely unusable, but if it loses Defog, it can probably be replaced by Foul Play. This set is even bulkier than Persparce and (IMO) has a better type, even resisting fighting. Its Ice weakness isn't really that relevant since the only physical attacker I can think of that uses an Ice move is Tinksharp with Ice Hammer, and even then it's pretty niche. I really hope it doesn't lose Roost since I'm looking forward to being able to use it.
So with the new DLC Im here to post about something Ive both miss and dreaded from Gen 7 days.
Assuming Gligar has BDSP move pool then behold GliGyara:
Stats: 140/190/129/80/145/86
Gyarados (Gligar) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Roost
- Defog/SR/Toxic/U-turn/Koff
- Toxic/U-turn/Koff
Gligar was so common that water and Ice moves were on nearly every team to deal with it. Some people ran Gligar x Hariyama just for Thick Fat (and to run other Gyarados evolution).
Some other returning mons are Rhydon (I used to ce with Gallade), Buzz (similar to Magneton x Viv but with CE Focus Blast), Dusclops (Gargan looks really attractive),Tangela (stage 1, common ce was Volcarona). If some things are inaccurate, im sorry. going off memory. Also Ive heard Durladon is now a Stage 1 so that seems cheap.
A returning evo to look out for is Milotic. Very similar boosts to Gyarados but more focus on SpA. Movepool option is mostly recover. Chincho x Milotic paired nice with GliGyara.
Edit: Just checked movepool. Gligar/gliscor no longer learns Roost. On the one hand, GliGyara got shafted. On the other hand, GliGyara got shafted.
(the relevant moves are almost only TMs)
-, , , get Toxic
-, , , , , are coming back
-, , , , , get Knock Off
-, , get Poltergeist
-, , , do not get Scald
-, , , do not get Flip Turn
-, , get Flip Turn
-, , , , do not get Toxic
-, do not get Knock Off
- does not get Grassy Glide (its also nerfed to 55 BP but IDT that'll be relevant without Breloom)
-, , , , get Grassy Glide
-, , , get Scald
- does not get Dual Wingbeat
-, , get Scale Shot
- , , , , get Lash Out
- does not get Roost
- gets Spikes and Toxic Spikes
- Dipplin is absulute trash. 40 / 40 / 30 / 55 / 40 / 20 stats, no type, Gluttony / Supersweet Syrup / Sticky Hold. https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/scarlet-violet-the-teal-mask.3727770/page-38#post-9779305 should this be useable as a base since Eviolite works on it, or not since you can't actually evolve it currently?
- Poltchageist doesn't look very good. 40 / 45 / 45/ 74 / 54/ 50 stats, Grass / Ghost
- Sinitcha doesn't looks that great either. 31 / 15/ 61 / 47 / 26 / 20, no type, abilities currently unknown
- Blood Moon Ursaluna doesn't look amazing but could get carried by its sig move like Tinkaton. 140 BP Special Normal move that can't be used twice in a row. 23 / -60 / 45 / 55 / -10 / -3, Ground / Normal, Mind's Eye (sort of like Scrappy, unknown if it blocks Intimidate) using /showevo on it shows the stat difference between it and Ursaluna, not Ursaring, so I doubt it'll be useable
Will update this as we learn more (also let me know if I missed something or made a mistake)
- Blood Moon Ursaluna doesn't look amazing but could get carried by its sig move like Tinkaton. 140 BP Special Normal move that can't be used twice in a row. 23 / -60 / 45 / 55 / -10 / -3, Ground / Normal, Mind's Eye (sort of like Scrappy, unknown if it blocks Intimidate)
Some other returning mons are Rhydon (I used to ce with Gallade), Buzz (similar to Magneton x Viv but with CE Focus Blast), Dusclops (Gargan looks really attractive),Tangela (stage 1, common ce was Volcarona). If some things are inaccurate, im sorry. going off memory.
At the minimum, Rhydon, Magmar, and Duraludon are all DLC2 so we aren't worried about those for a few months.
On another note: datasheets are updated for DLC1 - link to the fast/published version here, copyable version is in Resources. There's about ~50 new evos and ~60 new evolvers to work with, so go wild. Also stay tuned for some news on tiering action and survey results come the 16th/17th - the post-DLC metagame may see some drastic shifts in the coming days based on feedback from the survey.
Terastallization is now banned from Cross Evolution!
anaconja
DosDogs
in the hills
PQRDG
smellslikememe
Zuldaar
Terastallization
BAN
BAN
ABS
DNB
BAN
ABS
Tera has proved be be too much for this meta. Tera has several factors that make it too strong. Tera warps all our tiering decisions, we as a council have to account for it in every mon, and sometimes it's what pushes a mon over the top. Another big point is that this meta already changes the types of mons, so changing them again adds unnecessary complexity to matchups and mechanics. The final nail in the coffin is how easy Tera can counter checks, mons like Clodsire, Bisharp, Vivillon, and Calyrex-Shadow can all easily tera to beat checks, either offensively or defensively. So after a lengthly discussion we have moved to vote and ban it.
Nothing stands out as broken in the DLC, so we'll let the meta settle a little, especially with the huge meta change of tera being gone
I hope you all enjoy the new meta in the DLC, can't wait to check out al the new sets, and which old sets survive *cough* *cough* Clodsparce ! Tagging Kris to implement, thx in advance.
Now I see that there have been some points about its viability spot as an evolution, but here I am wondering "why try evolving something into Basculegion, when you can just use the actual Basculegion?" If we're technical, it would be like using the banned Basculin-White as a base, and I struggle to find a base that could be used over that, especially if you want to make use of Swift Swim. I suppose there are two advantages of using Basculegion as an evolution: You have a broader movepool to choose from, and the opponent won't be immediately alarmed by the Last Respects nuke on Team Preview.
C -> D (Did I or PQRDG put this in C? It's got okay stats to where it could be usable, but like... it's not a C tier, especially since I've never heard of any good Kilowattrel evos.)
, 
, 
get Toxic
, 
, 
, 
, 
, 
, 
get Knock Off
, 
, 
, 
, 
get Flip Turn
, 
, 
, 
do not get Knock Off
, 
, 
, 
get Grassy Glide
does not get Dual Wingbeat
Dipplin is absulute trash. 40 / 40 / 30 / 55 / 40 / 20 stats, no type, Gluttony / Supersweet Syrup / Sticky Hold. 
Poltchageist doesn't look very good. 40 / 45 / 45/ 74 / 54/ 50 stats, Grass / Ghost
Sinitcha doesn't looks that great either. 31 / 15/ 61 / 47 / 26 / 20, no type, abilities currently unknown
Terastallization is now banned from Cross Evolution!