I like your creativity. But unfortunately most of us vastly prefer Primal Kyogre over Ash-Greninja because it has more power and is less susceptible to -ate users. Greninja-Ash has a selling point over Primal Kyogre in Speed and access to secondary typing but then Mega Gyarados becomes an issue. This leaves the set heavily reliant on its coverage to bypass its checks and in this aspect, Primal Kyogre is better due to much better power.
Greninja-Ash @ Life Orb
Ability: Liquid Voice
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Moonblast (for Dragon)
- Blue Flare (for Grass)
- Thunderbolt (for Water)
Hey everyone! I just started BH, and I made this interesting set. It's pretty simple, Liquid Voice STAB LO Boomburst + a bunch of coverage. I used Ash-Greninja because it's the fastest Water-type, and has the second-most SpAtk of all Water types, behind Kyogre. That's pretty impressive. This set turns Ash-Greninja into a fearsome sweeper, obviously.
What do you think?
tl;dr: Liquid Voice STAB LO Boomburst + a bunch of coverage :3
I like your creativity. But unfortunately most of us vastly prefer Primal Kyogre over Ash-Greninja because it has more power and is less susceptible to -ate users. Greninja-Ash has a selling point over Primal Kyogre in Speed and access to secondary typing but then Mega Gyarados becomes an issue. This leaves the set heavily reliant on its coverage to bypass its checks and in this aspect, Primal Kyogre is better due to much better power.
What I can suggest you to do with that set is just use Primordial Sea + Life Orb / Choice Specs because that has more power:
Liquid Voice + Boomburst: 140 * 1.5 (STAB) = 210 BP
Primordial Sea + Life Orb + Steam Eruption = 110 * 1.5 (STAB) * 1.5 (Rain) = 247.5
Anyways, I think you got right ideas to start out and welcome to BH. Thank you for sharing your set and have a good day.
To elaborate on what may be a good use of moves with Primordial Sea, based on the coverage you want against certain types:
Greninja-Ash @ Life Orb
Ability: Liquid Voice
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Moonblast (for Dragon)
- Blue Flare (for Grass)
- Thunderbolt (for Waytegr)
Hey everyone! I just started BH, and I made this interesting set. It's pretty simple, Liquid Voice STAB LO Boomburst + a bunch of coverage. I used Ash-Greninja because it's the fastest Water-type, and has the second-most SpAtk of all Water types, behind Kyogre. That's pretty impressive. This set turns Ash-Greninja into a fearsome sweeper, obviously.
What do you think?
Tl;dr: Liquid Voice STAB LO Boomburst + a bunch of coverage :3
I meant to say Ash-Greninja has harder time breaking past Mega Gyarados with its lower raw power. Because both Ash-Greninja and Primal Kyogre have their STAB's resisted by aforementioned pokemon, they have to rely on coverages to break through it, and in that case, Primal Kyogre's higher Sp.Atk puts it over the edge.To elaborate on what may be a good use of moves with Primordial Sea, based on the coverage you want against certain types:
Set Name: Raininja
Greninja-Ash @ Life Orb / Choice Specs
Ability: Primordial Sea
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Clanging Scales / Core Enforcer (for Dragon)
- Hurricane (for Grass)
- Thunder (for Water)
Hurricane and Thunder are perfect accuracy, and have 30% chances to inflict a condition. Clanging Scales deals more damage than Core Enforcer, But Core Enforcer can be used on the switch to disable an ability - both deal more than Moonblast on Dragon types, except Mega-Altaria, especially against the odd Reshiram/Mega-Charizard-X.
Hurricane also had to replace Blue Flare as Primordial Sea prevents it, but don’t worry, as RNG pointed out, Steam Eruption would replace Boomburst, which has a 30% chance to burn (even higher than Blue Flare’s 20%).
I disagree that Mega-Gyarados competes with Ash-Greninja due to its typing. Ash-Greninja is used for fast Special Attacks in HO, while Gyarados is used for bulky offense, at least when it comes to Special Attack oriented sets, like the one being discussed...
Mega-Gyarados = 70 SpA VS Ash-Greninja = 153 SpA
That should be reason enough to use Ash-Greninja for a role Mega-Gyarados cannot fulfill.
Furthermore, unlike Kyogre, Greninja is immune to both moves called by Prankster as well as the ever common Psychic-type moves spammed, I.e. switching in on moves like Stored Power, Psychoo Boost, Psystrike, etc.
Higher speed than MMX, and just enough power allows it to carve out its own niche, even if more vulnerable to -ate.Beyond that point, it won’t need to waste a turn or moveslot trying to outspeed powerful threats like MMX, and MMX will think twice about trying to check it, as even if it survives the Water hit, it might get burned and faint at the end of the turn... if it survives:
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-X in Heavy Rain: 360-424 (86.5 - 101.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
For anyone saying what about Grass types like Kartana, which usually carries Flash Fire:
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja-Ash Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Kartana in Heavy Rain: 290-342 (90 - 106.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
* Specs is gauranteed to 1HKO. Kyogre would fear STAB Power Whip and have to switch out due to going second.
TLDR- take full advantage of rain while still maintaining the same type coverage with even stronger STAB based on the original concept by letterman4 and Primordial Sea and Steam Eruption suggested by RNGIsFatal
Choice SpecsI meant to say Ash-Greninja has harder time breaking past Mega Gyarados with its lower raw power. Because both Ash-Greninja and Primal Kyogre have their STAB's resisted by aforementioned pokemon, they have to rely on coverages to break through it, and in that case, Primal Kyogre's higher Sp.Atk puts it over the edge.
But Ash-Greninja could switch into a Groudon as a Check, remove its fire moves and threaten with Steam Eruption. Usually counters are not handled by the ones they threaten, in this case Ash-Greninja can check it by switching into Fire moves, or into Precipice Blades (no Defense drops).I look at that set and I can spot a huge problem that can be summed up in three words: Red Orb Groudon.
More words though? Sure. Primordial Sea gets replaced, Steam Eruption fails, Thunder fails, Hurricane's accuracy becomes worthless. Greinja's best chance to win the match-up is to hit with this on the switch.
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Groudon-Primal: 172-203 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Which means it loses 99.6 % of the time even with a manual switch. Or just outright if Pdon gets a safe switch in.
252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Greninja-Ash: 418-493 (120.1 - 141.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Pdon also 2HKOs Greinjash if it opts for Core instead, vs a 3HKO Ash needs to win.
252+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Greninja-Ash: 280-330 (80.4 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The other alternative is to run LO and successfully Core on the switch and follow with Steam Eruption. LO loses in any other situation where 'Don is healthy, however. This does assume Precipice 'Don vs Thousand Arrowaves or the rare Earthquake, however. On the other hand, it also assumes a 'Don without Fusion Bolt, Bolt Strike, or Solar Blade.
Fortunately for Ash, there aren't any Fairies routinely running Deso Land, as such a set would hard counter this set. Makes for a good idea for Improofing though.
But Ash-Greninja could switch into a Groudon as a Check, remove its fire moves and threaten with Steam Eruption. Usually counters are not handled by the ones they threaten, in this case Ash-Greninja can check it by switching into Fire moves, or into Precipice Blades (no Defense drops).
It will barely survive, but it will survive, and if it uses Thousand Arrows, then it will survive at an even healthier amount.
Again this was expanding on a set you were focused on improving for someone else...Check – A Pokémon that is designated to stop a threat, but cannot reliably counter one, being unable to withstand repeated attacks from it, such as switching into the threat repeatedly. Checks can use high damaging attacks or other category moves that seek to impair functioning, to scare off their respective threats.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/competitive-battling-basics-tiering-faq.3545934/#post-6357917
Primal Groudon with Red Orb usually goes +SpDef to be psuedo check to Diancie and Primal Kyogre in certain situations and it mostly uses Stealth Rock. Also if you are in a situation where you have to switch in Ash-Greninja to Primal Groudon and not someting like Poison Heal Giratina, it is just a serious systemic issue with your team, taht is all I can say. It doesn't switch into Thousand Arrows more than once. Yes, a check doesn't have to switch into a threat over and over but not being able to come in more than once is not something anyone would call "switch into something as a check". If you are still going to insist Ash-Greninja can handle Primal Groudon because it can switch in and force it out, be my guest, because with that logic Primordial Sea Kyogre is objectively better because it has way more bulk, Prankster move barring Prankster Haze / Destiny Bond has been declining and as MMY rose as a top threat, they became even less relevant. There is a reason why viability ranking puts Primal Kyogre is on top of Ash-Greninja (which should have been unranked at this point). Primal Kyogre at least dents switch-in better than Ash-Greninja does, making it superior option when it comes to using threatening move as a check. What you are arguing over sounds like "Golduck has niche over Primal Kyogre in Ubers due to it being able to switch in and threaten Primal Groudon with its STAB while barely surviving an attack".
If you are unsure about something in the current metagame at least make some observations in the mid / high ladder and test out things before you say stuff, because (I hate to say) most of the things you say often end up providing either wrong or very insignificant information. I tried to tell you this on profile instead of calling you out here but you limited members who can view your profile for some reason.
May I recommend Sacred Fire over arrows? While it has less PP (and fire types resist the coverage), the burns it can get are very nice, especially against an Imposter that tries to copy it. This also allows you to run a different 4th move if you wanted, like Leech Seed for extra memes against Imposter/Shed or Entrainment to dupe FF steels that think they can switch in/Prankster mons that can haze-stall otherwise (it becomes more difficult when they aren't Prank). Wisp is also an option for a 4th move if you want to keep arrows to accomplish a similar "cripple imposter" purpose, even though sleeping it is probably better in this contextOn to my own Creative/Underrated Set:
Xerneas @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Shift Gear
- Play Rough
- Thousand Arrows
- Spore / Lovely Kiss
Standard PH Xern... With PERFECT NEUTRAL COVERAGE! Does have the drawback of not having a better STAB in Moonblast, but Tarrows' coverage compensates that. Shift Gear is also more threatening to Offensive teams compared to QD.
Doesn't your signature link to a team where you use a Mega-Manectric which is also frail and deals even less damage than Ash-Greninja? Is it "situational" to use?OM! I don't deny Ashninja can't check Pdon by switching in. However, outside of a safe switch after a slow pivot or KO switch-in, its switch-in prospects are dicey. Precipice crit OHKOs, which is inherently risky. Switching into V-Create is safe, but requires a good prediction to make, not something you can safely do right off the bat. Electric moves are a straight no. Sunsteel Strike will hurt, but probably be safe. Solar Blade is safe due to forced charge-up (probably best move to get in on since they can't switch out). U-Turn will hurt a lot. Not sure if 'Don still runs Icicle Crash.
Then there's them switching in a Water-resist, correctly guessing Specs based on the damage inflicted, and then switching back safely. If they have Red Orb 'Don, you can't safely use Water moves with specs without giving 'Don a free switch. 'Don likewise can't use Fire for the same reason, but being able to swap moves gives it a few more options if it wants to test its luck vs Steam Eruption unaccurracy. (A highly inadvisable play unless no better options exist.)
But yeah, the sets do check each other. But with Ashninja being so reliant on its weather with that particular set, its options are far more limited if Deso Land is on the table, especially with Specs.
In my last post, I brought up LO Manectric-Mega to help your team not to compare to Ash-Greninja, that’s why I separated them with a line and topic. Interesting you say Ferrothorn isn’t common enough, while you use one on your advertised team...No, its not strictly better with Life Orb No Guard. Why?
I mean, No Guard likely has its niche but... No Guard has a huge host of problems associated with it and there's a reason why the ability isn't seen much on any Pokemon, not just Manectric. If you wanna prove to me its a superior ability, go get some upper-mid to high ladder replays or tournament level replays showcasing it or put together a successful, descriptive RMT bringing it all together.
- LO Zap Cannon is still weaker than itemless Galvanize Boomburst
- 8 PP for Zap vs 16 for Boomburst, which is important in long matches
- Vulnerable to Trick, Knock Off, etc, which reduces LO No Guard's damage by quite a bit. Z-Crystal can switch in on Trick and even gain momentum off of Choice Trick sets.
- Zap Cannon is near useless when ability is suppressed. No-ability Boomburst isn't ideal either, but at least you know you don't have a 30-50% chance to miss if you gotta take the shot on a low HP target before it recovers
- LO sucks away HP. Manectric gets antsy about surviving common hits at roughly 70% HP, which means you get three attacks off before things get dicey. Less with hazards. You only get about 5 attacks if you have to switch into hazards for each one. LO is better for sweepers who can easily end a match in less than 10 attacks, or ensure a victory. No Guard Manectric can't.
- Losing LO is painful. Giratina, whose weak to Blizzard, WALLS your set if the LO is lost unless its a no-recovery PH variant.
- Focus Blast is nice and all but Manectric really prefers Ground coverage for a third typing so it can hit Pdon on the switch. (Or KO with Groundium Z if you really want.) Ferrothorn isn't common enough for Focus Blast and Kartana cannot switch in on any of Manectric's moves anyway, or at all with less than ~70% HP unless it has boosted speed.
- Sing + Zap Cannon + Inferno? That's probably too many competiting status effects for one team, let alone one set.
- No Guard also ensures that any attacks from faster/Prankster/surviving Pokemon will hit. No fun for that PH Giratina to Lovely Kiss you and then heal off your damage and not even having that small chance for it to miss.
- How the heck do you Imposterproof this thing anyway? Comatose Cresselia? Galvanize Manectric can at least safely sleep its Imposter if running the Spore + Safety set or pivot at the risk of ~25% damage from Ice Beam if it can't just manually switch into something (and with Imposter not having Z-move or high powered coverage, its pretty easy to Improof).
On Ash-Ninja, I just have a few questions...
- Why did you suddenly switch from Primordial Sea to Mega Launcher for comparing stuff? That seems sudden and random.
- Why are you making a Specs comparison to an itemless comparison?
- Why are we comparing to Manectric anyway? Why did you even bring it up when it had nothing to do with the conversation on Ashninja?
- Why are we comparing a lure / utility attacker to an all-out attacker in terms of raw damage?
- Is the goal just trying to get bigger numbers? If so, why aren't we using Mewtwo-Y, Deo-A, or Mega-Ray?
- Is Mega Launcher even a standard ability for Ashninja? I know I asked what damage abilities it ran, but, I was looking for what it commonly runs, NOT what it can run. AFAIK its common ability is Dazzling.
- Have you used this set? Or the Primordial Sea one? If I remember right, this isn't a topic for theorymonning. Now if we were in the main BH topic, it'd be different and I'd be perfectly willing to theorymon to the ends of the earth. But, I don't wanna get mod-smacked for breaking rules.
- I dunno if you've proven your point or not, since I dunno what it is. If its posting big, impressive looking calcs... not to be rude but... yay? As useful as they are, a bunch of calcs really don't showcase in-game effectiveness, reliability, or consistency. Otherwise the best team in the meta would be like 6x LO Accupressure Stored Power Mewtwo Ys with max stats and Psychic Terrain up and with all hazards up on the opponent's side who are suffering from Toxic, Leech Seed, Sandstorm damage, and hitting themselves in the confusion while the Mewtwos crit on every attack.
The only time I may have lead you to believe that my previous post was compared to Mega-Manectric was in Base power:Advantage over Kyogre, double STAB boosted ability, speed, Dark immunity to Psychic and Prankster, etc.
I said it would deal more damage via Base power, and then I proceeded to break down each individual move in its moveset such as how Dark Pulse equaled Zap Cannon, and Aura Sphere was equal to Focus Blast.As for Ash-Greninja, it has higher SpA, and can use Mega Launcher to Beat Manectric in damage, and gain 50% more power on both of its STABS, unlike Steam Eruption with Primordial Sea.