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Project Counter that Threat! 21st Week: Snover - Counters Submissions
- Thread starter Yagura
- Start date
obvious power
Good Morgan
Banned deucer.
Fitzy's Growlithe
I don't care about the quantity of votes now.
fitzy wins it, indeed Growlithe is really underrated that can work out well as a physically defensive mon with Intimidate and Morning Sun as a reliable recovery, and no Ponyta doesn't 100% outclass, it's also cute. Anyways speaking of cuteness here is our "arguably" cute threat for the week:
Aipom @ Life Orb
Level: 5
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 76 HP / 196 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fury Swipes
- Knock Off
- Brick Break
- Fake Out
Aipom @ Life Orb
Level: 5
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 76 HP / 196 Atk / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fury Swipes
- Knock Off
- Brick Break
- Fake Out
Archen @ Eviolite
Ability: Defeatist
Level: 5
EVs: 236 HP / 100 Atk / 156 Def
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Defog / Stealth Rock / w/e
- Roost
Aipom forces you to run really defensive Archen 25 HP, if SR is on your side, that brings you down to 19HP
196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 236 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Archen: 6-9 (24 - 36%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
(6, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)
196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Brick Break vs. 236 HP / 156+ Def Archen: 8-10 (32 - 40%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(8, 8, 8, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10)
So yeah, with 2 max rolls and rocks, Archen can lose, but there's like 0.4% chance of that happening. you just gotta keep roosting up though, then hit it with Rock Slide when you're back at full
Ability: Defeatist
Level: 5
EVs: 236 HP / 100 Atk / 156 Def
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Defog / Stealth Rock / w/e
- Roost
Aipom forces you to run really defensive Archen 25 HP, if SR is on your side, that brings you down to 19HP
196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 236 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Archen: 6-9 (24 - 36%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
(6, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)
196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Brick Break vs. 236 HP / 156+ Def Archen: 8-10 (32 - 40%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(8, 8, 8, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10)
So yeah, with 2 max rolls and rocks, Archen can lose, but there's like 0.4% chance of that happening. you just gotta keep roosting up though, then hit it with Rock Slide when you're back at full
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-200798320
You calculated fury swipes wrong. It needs a total of 6 hits between two attacks to ko you.
Thanks fitzy72. I can't join PS to try it with a example and I did a mistake with manual calc. Sorry, I delete my post.
Reserving standard Bulky Attacker Timburr
Nvm fakeout + fury swipes KOs timburr.
Nvm fakeout + fury swipes KOs timburr.
Snubbull @ Berry Juice
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 196 Def / 116 SpD
Impish Nature
- Play Rough
- Close Combat
- Thunder Wave / Heal Bell
- Earthquake / Thief
Thanks to Intimidate and decent bulk, Snubbull counters Aipom quite well. 15 Defense might not be the norm, but Snubbull needs that extra point to fully counter LO Aipom, otherwise Fury Swipes damage rolls are significantly increased (1 to 4). Berry Juice brings Snubbull back to full when it falls below half health, and Close Combat nabs the OHKO on Aipom after a round of LO recoil.
-1 196 Atk Life Orb Aipom (Fury Swipes) (5 hits) vs. 196 HP / 196+ Def Snubbull: 5-20 (20 - 80%) -- approx. 12.1% chance to 2HKO
(1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 4)
as opposed to (4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5) rolls with 14 Defense
in return...
0 Atk Snubbull Close Combat vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Aipom: 22-26 (95.6 - 113%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Oddly enough, Snubbull can technically lose, if it switches into stealth stones, gets knocked off, and Aipom gets a max roll every single time. Given there's less than a 0.0001% chance of this happening, I'd still be willing to label Snubbull as a counter.
(1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 4)
as opposed to (4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5) rolls with 14 Defense
in return...
0 Atk Snubbull Close Combat vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Aipom: 22-26 (95.6 - 113%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Oddly enough, Snubbull can technically lose, if it switches into stealth stones, gets knocked off, and Aipom gets a max roll every single time. Given there's less than a 0.0001% chance of this happening, I'd still be willing to label Snubbull as a counter.
Reserving Ferro
sam-testings
What a beautiful face, I have found in this place
lel, first time trying this, tell me how i do.
Spritzee @ Berry juice
Ability: Aroma Veil
Level: 5
Bold:212/0/196/12/76/12
-Moonblast
-Protect
-Wish
-Aromatherapy
Have Spritzee protect on the first turn so that you won't take damage from Fake Out, then Moonblast to get some damage in.
With no damage from Fake Out, and healing with Berry Juice, you can live even after two Fury Swipes.
Calcs
12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Aipom: 12-15 (52.1 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Spritzee: 4-5 (14.8 - 18.5%) -- possible 6HKO
196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Brick Break vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Spritzee: 4-5 (14.8 - 18.5%) -- possible 6HKO
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-201423258
Even if Aipom uses Knock Off first, you still win.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-201428545
You kinda have to rely on not getting crits though.
edit: You can't switch in on Knock off and win. But, Aipom nearly always uses Fake Out first move out except in very situational cases, so it should work for most cases.
Spritzee @ Berry juice
Ability: Aroma Veil
Level: 5
Bold:212/0/196/12/76/12
-Moonblast
-Protect
-Wish
-Aromatherapy
Have Spritzee protect on the first turn so that you won't take damage from Fake Out, then Moonblast to get some damage in.
With no damage from Fake Out, and healing with Berry Juice, you can live even after two Fury Swipes.
Calcs
12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Aipom: 12-15 (52.1 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Spritzee: 4-5 (14.8 - 18.5%) -- possible 6HKO
196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Brick Break vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Spritzee: 4-5 (14.8 - 18.5%) -- possible 6HKO
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-201423258
Even if Aipom uses Knock Off first, you still win.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-201428545
You kinda have to rely on not getting crits though.
edit: You can't switch in on Knock off and win. But, Aipom nearly always uses Fake Out first move out except in very situational cases, so it should work for most cases.
Last edited:
196 Atk Aipom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 2-3 (7.4 - 11.1%) -- possible 9HKO
(2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3)
196 Atk Aipom Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Spritzee: 15-20 (55.5 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4)
(Bullet seed is 18 base power and is normal type to emulate fury swipes.)
Aipom beats you unless it misses. You need to switch into an attack, which is why this doesn't work out.
sam-testings
What a beautiful face, I have found in this place
You can switch into a Fake Out and still win, so as long as you don't switch in on a knock off, you should b able to win 1 v 1.
Scraggy @ Eviolite
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 76 Atk / 116 Def / 36 SpD / 212 Spe
Jolly Nature
Dragon Dance
Drain Punch
Knock Off
Poison Jab or w.e you want
Your standard DD scraggy set, with intimidate swapped in for moxie.
-1 196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Brick Break vs. 36 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Scraggy: 8-10 (36.3 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
(8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 10)
Edited the evs a bit thanks to Pawou. (dropped a point from Atk and added it to Def) The EVs become a little less optimal, but still seems pretty viable (might even help it set up a DD easier). With only 76 EVs attack, now drain punch does:
76 Atk Scraggy Drain Punch vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Aipom: 20-26 (86.9 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
(20, 20, 20, 20, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 26)
Which will always KO after 2 life orb recoils (one on the switch in, and another if it stays in), and has a pretty good chance to get the kill with only 1 recoil. Could also switch to an adamant nature if you so wish to guarantee the ohko
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leingodf8, Knock Off + Fury Swipes is a guaranteed KO with rocks, and a good chance without
-1 196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Scraggy: 20-25 (90.9 - 113.6%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
(4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5)
-1 196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 36 HP / 116 Def Scraggy: 5-20 (22.7 - 90.9%) -- approx. 12.1% chance to 2HKO
(1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 4)
(adjusted Tail Slap to 18 BP)
^adding an extra point in Defense fixes this
-1 196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Scraggy: 20-25 (90.9 - 113.6%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
(4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5)
-1 196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 36 HP / 116 Def Scraggy: 5-20 (22.7 - 90.9%) -- approx. 12.1% chance to 2HKO
(1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 4)
(adjusted Tail Slap to 18 BP)
^adding an extra point in Defense fixes this
Thanks for pointing that out. Edited the evs in my post to work out better
Adding 1 extra point of defense to snubbul and scraggy if imperative if they don't want to die to fury swipes. However, it's really not normal to run 15 defense on either of these pokes. Both of them would normally use 14.
Edit: I can't think of any way to counter aipom though the doesn't involve such a method or just relying on flame body hax.
Edit: I can't think of any way to counter aipom though the doesn't involve such a method or just relying on flame body hax.
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I'll defend the case for the fity's defensive tirtouga though since that seems to have potential.
196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 92 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Tirtouga: 6-8 (26 - 34.7%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
(6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 8)
196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Brick Break vs. 92 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Solid Rock Tirtouga: 8-10 (34.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 10)
196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Brick Break vs. 92 HP / 252 Def Solid Rock Tirtouga: 10-12 (43.4 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
(10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)
--------
0 Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Aipom: 13-16 (56.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16)
0 Atk Tirtouga Aqua Jet vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Aipom: 6-7 (26 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
(6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 7)
Coming in on rocks tirtouga takes 2 damage to bring it to 21 health. The most damage aipom could do to it is 20 with two max damage brick breaks. Tirtouga would survive on at least 1 hitpoints and if it can land a stone edge with an aqua jet to follow it up it could do at least 19 damage. This aipom has 23 health. HOWEVER, it would lose 4 health in recoil from the two attacks it used attack tirouga which would bring aipom down to 19 health and in range for tirtogua to kill it.
I would say that defensive tirtouga can counter this aipom IF stonedge connects and aipom doesn't get a crit. There is some luck here. I don't need to do the calcs for archen since Rowan already did them. It does appear to be just as viable of a counter as tirouga I would say since the probability of getting those max damage rolls is very low. Both archen and tirouga need a little luck here to avoid crits, land hits, and avoid max damage rolls, but both have strong potential to counter. I will say, however, that IMO defensive archen is less commonly used compared to defensive tirtouga.
196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 92 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Tirtouga: 6-8 (26 - 34.7%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
(6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 8)
196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Brick Break vs. 92 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Solid Rock Tirtouga: 8-10 (34.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 10)
196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Brick Break vs. 92 HP / 252 Def Solid Rock Tirtouga: 10-12 (43.4 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
(10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)
--------
0 Atk Tirtouga Stone Edge vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Aipom: 13-16 (56.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16)
0 Atk Tirtouga Aqua Jet vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Aipom: 6-7 (26 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
(6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 7)
Coming in on rocks tirtouga takes 2 damage to bring it to 21 health. The most damage aipom could do to it is 20 with two max damage brick breaks. Tirtouga would survive on at least 1 hitpoints and if it can land a stone edge with an aqua jet to follow it up it could do at least 19 damage. This aipom has 23 health. HOWEVER, it would lose 4 health in recoil from the two attacks it used attack tirouga which would bring aipom down to 19 health and in range for tirtogua to kill it.
I would say that defensive tirtouga can counter this aipom IF stonedge connects and aipom doesn't get a crit. There is some luck here. I don't need to do the calcs for archen since Rowan already did them. It does appear to be just as viable of a counter as tirouga I would say since the probability of getting those max damage rolls is very low. Both archen and tirouga need a little luck here to avoid crits, land hits, and avoid max damage rolls, but both have strong potential to counter. I will say, however, that IMO defensive archen is less commonly used compared to defensive tirtouga.