Cloyster

[illre]

Just curious. Has anyone tried running an assault best set on shelder. I haven't really looked into it but it did pop in my head. Even without shell smash cloyster can do some damage with rock blast and icicle spear. I just don't know what the other moves/viability would be

Vest*

 

[trc]

Please direct all opinions about the analysis to my VM. As for AV, with something with as terrible Special Defense as Cloyster, it is a bad idea.

 

[Cheatingtaco]

I have been using
@ Focus Sash
252 Atk 252 Spe
Adamant
- Rock Blast
- Icicle Spear
- Protect
- Shell Smash
It's been working out pretty well. If he can get a shell smash off he becomes IMPREGNABLE!

 

[JR]

I have been using
@ Focus Sash
252 Atk 252 Spe
Adamant
- Rock Blast
- Icicle Spear
- Protect
- Shell Smash
It's been working out pretty well. If he can get a shell smash off he becomes IMPREGNABLE!

Why Protect?

Focus Sash is a pretty awesome idea, though. I've been in situations where it would have been awesome to have it.

 

[CyclicCompound]

I have been using
@ Focus Sash
252 Atk 252 Spe
Adamant
- Rock Blast
- Icicle Spear
- Protect
- Shell Smash
It's been working out pretty well. If he can get a shell smash off he becomes IMPREGNABLE!

Read the analysis, Focus Sash is already mentioned as an option in the set details. There's no sense in using Protect, as Cloyster would much rather run another attack than scout for something like Vacuum Wave. Otherwise, your set is no different from the one in the current analysis.

 

[Cheatingtaco]

Why Protect?

Focus Sash is a pretty awesome idea, though. I've been in situations where it would have been awesome to have it.

Read the analysis, Focus Sash is already mentioned as an option in the set details. There's no sense in using Protect, as Cloyster would much rather run another attack than scout for something like Vacuum Wave. Otherwise, your set is no different from the one in the current analysis.

Protect is there for scouting purposes, because I like to know if they can hit Cloyster SE before lowering my defense. And what other attacks are worth running? From my experience his multi hit attacks are the only ones that are really worth it.

 

[JR]

Protect is there for scouting purposes, because I like to know if they can hit Cloyster SE before lowering my defense. And what other attacks are worth running? From my experience his multi hit attacks are the only ones that are really worth it.

Hydro Pump? Coverage is always good.

 

[Cheatingtaco]

Hydro Pump? Coverage is always good.

I have been using rock blast and icicle spear and that's been working out fine. Even at NFE they still deal 11% each hit so they always leave a significant dent.

 

[trc]

This isn't a discussion thread. As for Protect, there is no use for it over a coverage move. Look at the set. Read the analysis. Then stop wasting my time with pointless ideas. Thanks :)

 

[Cheatingtaco]

This isn't a discussion thread. As for Protect, there is no use for it over a coverage move. Look at the set. Read the analysis. Then stop wasting my time with pointless ideas. Thanks :)

well pshh you could have just said it. Here's one instance where protect has come in handy-
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-80209942

 

[Gary]

well pshh you could have just said it. Here's one instance where protect has come in handy-
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-80209942

If you're trying to vouch for the viability of Protect on Cloyster, I highly recommend that you support your argument with practical evidence instead of showing us a replay where Protect helped you beat Bounce Palpitoad. That's definitely not going to get us to take you seriously.

 

[Elite Lord Sigma]

I have a minor question. If you're going to run Hydro Pump, is there any particular reason to choose Naive rather than Naughty as a nature? Naughty maximizes Attack without sacrificing Hydro Pump's power, and the analysis itself does say that Adamant is preferred over Jolly to hit as hard as possible.

 

[trc]

Hmm, that makes an interesting case. I didn't think of that. Jukain AccidentalGreed what do you think?

 

[trc]

Actually never mind, I'm including it.

 

[JR]

TRCarnivine as the main slash? His reasoning made a lot of sense.

 

[trc]

Johnny Rage What are you referring to?

 

[JR]

Johnny Rage What are you referring to?

Naughty as the main nature if using Hydro Pump.

No matter, you've already implemented it. :)

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Yeah okay.

 

[smallman]

I know I'm really late... but as a "gimmick", memento helps a ton with helping cloyster set up... whimsicott gets priority, dusclops gets it, and dugtrio is often seen running it. If your team has trouble getting cloyster in to set up, memento cirpples any opposing pokemon, nearly guaranteeing a shell-smash boost.

I don't know if it's worth mentioning, but I might as well state it for anyone in the future that happens to be on this thread (:

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

I know this is kinda a necrobump but I think the Focus Sash should be removed entirely from the analysis or mentioned only to say that you should not use it in OO.

There is almost no good reason to run Focus Sash on a Cloyster and it one of the biggest reasons why Cloyster has such as poor reputation on the ladder. Cloyster isn't exactly terrible, but everybody thinks that it needs to have a Focus Sash to set up and also therefore needs to be led with every single time it is used, which in turn makes it, well, terrible. The analysis should reflect on this, and I don't think putting it in Set Details says this well enough. Cloyster is one of the worst leads in the metagame, too. I've never seen it actually succeed at its job because of all the priority moves out there. And I've seen a lot of lead Cloysters.

An example of what I'm talking about is RU Whimsicott's OO section, where SubSeed is only mentioned to say that it is not good.

 

[trc]

I know this is kinda a necrobump but I think the Focus Sash should be removed entirely from the analysis or mentioned only to say that you should not use it in OO.

There is almost no good reason to run Focus Sash on a Cloyster and it one of the biggest reasons why Cloyster has such as poor reputation on the ladder. Cloyster isn't exactly terrible, but everybody thinks that it needs to have a Focus Sash to set up and also therefore needs to be led with every single time it is used, which in turn makes it, well, terrible. The analysis should reflect on this, and I don't think putting it in Set Details says this well enough. Cloyster is one of the worst leads in the metagame, too. I've never seen it actually succeed at its job because of all the priority moves out there. And I've seen a lot of lead Cloysters.

An example of what I'm talking about is RU Whimsicott's OO section, where SubSeed is only mentioned to say that it is not good.

Agreed, only mentioned it as per a QC member's suggestion on IRC but I won't name them since it was a terrible idea. Removed.

 

[trc]

Removed mentions of Genesect and Mega Lucario.

 

[Explorer]

With something with such a terrible defensive typing as Cloyster, including a Stealth Rock weakness, trying to Rapid Spin generally isn't worth it, as you will be losing a good portion of your health everytime you go in to remove hazards. Additionally, the set would appreciate a bit of defensive investment, though I fail to see how much you can benefit your already horrible Special Defense stat. You also seem to be running SS + Icicle Spear on a set which primarily looks defensive, which confuses me, as trying to pull of a Shell Smash and sweeping with Icicle Spear seems generally difficult, especially as you don't have any coverage moves. Finally, Focus Sash is generally an inferior option for Cloyster as with the ubiquity of hazards and Tyranitar, your sash will be broken quite easily, and even if it isn't, an item which boosts offenses such as Life Orb, NeverMeltIce or Icicle Plate, or an item with some utility such as Kings Rock, is usually the better option.

I think seeing some replays of the set in action would help, but at first glance it appears ineffective without more team support than is generally realistic for a player to have.

 

[MetallicMiniboss]

Seeing Tentacruel in the Checks & Counters sounded kinda off to me, so I ran some damage calcs and came up with this.
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Tentacruel: 230-275 (63.1 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
If Cloyster already has a Shell Smash up, Tentacruel isn't really that great of a counter considering that Rock Blast chops off almost 2/3s of its health from one turn, while Tentacruel can only retaliate with this:
0 SpA Tentacruel Scald vs. -1 4 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 100-118 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Even if Cloyster gets burned, it's still going to KO Tentacruel unless it protects after the initial Rock Blast, and this is assuming that Tenta's at full health without any entry hazards.
Plus, Tentacruel couldn't switch in and then tank a hit unless Cloyster's using Hydro Pump or setting up the initial shell smash, so it requires a teammate to faint or maybe a slow -turn to get into the battle in the first place.
Also, if Cloyster's holding a Lum Berry, Tentacruel's Toxic or Scald burn won't even slow it down, and that 41% flinch chance with can be a huge liability considering Tentacruel's low physical bulk. On the off chance that Cloyster has a White Herb..
0 SpA Tentacruel Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 67-79 (27.6 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Heck, I really like Tentacruel, but it's much more of a shaky situational check than a solid counter.

 

[Aragorn the King]

**Sorry for this being a) after it's done, and b) in the improper format... but:

This is Cloyster's most effective set, and is the set that gave Cloyster its reputation as an incredibly dangerous sweeper. Shell Smash is the move that makes Cloyster so threatening; by doubling its offensive stats and Speed, it instantly becomes a threatening sweeper. Cloyster's main STAB attack, Icicle Spear, will consistently be 125 Base Power thanks to Skill Link, and after a Shell Smash, it will inflict massive damage on anything that doesn't resist it; even physical walls such as Ferrothorn and Skarmory take large amounts of damage. Rock Blast is an excellent coverage move, as not only is it boosted by Skill Link, it also provides great neutral coverage, hitting Fire- and Ice-types super effectively, and is Cloyster's main way of dealing with Talonflame, Gyarados, Volcarona, and Mega Charizard X. The fourth slot is based on personal choice. Hydro Pump is often the better option, as it allows Cloyster to break through physically defensive checks such as Skamory, Forretress, and Scizor with a bit of prior damage, while Razor Shell is Cloyster's best option against Assault Vest Tyranitar, Specially Defensive Jirachi, and Specially Defensive Heatran. However, Ice Shard can be used to KO a weakened Breloom, hit Talonflame before it attempts to revenge kill with Brave Bird, eliminate Choice Scarf Noivern and give Cloyster useful priority before it boosts, but it is often unnecessary.

Jirachi was rejected for an analysis. I honestly don't think it's worth mentioning here at all.

**Priority Users**: Cloyster cannot OHKO Scizor with any of it's moves even after a Shell Smash

Should be "its."

**Stealth Rock**: Cloyster's Ice typing gives it an unfortunate weakness to Stealth Rock, so having it up can limit Cloyster's switch-in opportunities and make it easier for opponents to defeat.

I may be misreading it, but shouldn't you say "Cloyster" after defeat? Otherwise it makes it somewhat sound like the opponents are being defeated, while you should be communicated that Stealth Rock makes it so that its opponents can easily defeat it.

However, to compensate for its amazing Defense stat, Game Freak decided to give Cloyster an abysmal Special Defense stat; this in conjunction with its poor defensive typing means that the majority of special moves will severely damage it and prevent it from being able to successfully pull off a sweep.

This one I'm not 100% sure about, but I'm pretty sure there should be a comma around the bolded text.

**Bulky Water-types**: Bulky Water-types are a very effective way of dealing with Cloyster as they resist both of its STAB moves. A common one is Rotom-W, who can take a hit from Cloyster and OHKO back with Thunderbolt. Quagsire also fills this role very well as it can take Cloyster's hits easily due to its Unaware ability and cripple Cloyster with Toxic, or try to burn it with Scald. Jellicent and Tentacruel perform very similarly as both can wear Cloyster down with Scald, and Jellicent can also Will-O-Wisp Cloyster, while Tentacruel can Toxic stall it out. Slowbro can take a hit from Cloyster and heavily dent it with Psychic or Flamethrower; it can also paralyze Cloyster with Thunder Wave, preventing it from successfully sweeping. Keldeo is not incredibly bulky, but it can survive any of Cloyster's attacks at +2 and retaliate with either Hydro Pump or Secret Sword. Bear in mind that Lum Berry variants of Cloyster are immune to an initial status move, so try to determine the item Cloyster is running from the damage output.

Both were rejected, and should be removed.

eliminate Choice Scarf Noivern

Noivern is pretty cool and all, but Scarf Noivern is not good/common. It isn't even in OO in your analysis. :P